Author Topic: BitShares X Product Roadmap - AGS/PTS Snapshots and More!  (Read 54857 times)

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Offline xxeyes

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No actions to take on your part aside from making sure your PTS is in your local wallet (not on an exchange) prior to Feb 28th.   Once the snapshot is taken we will begin preparing for release.   After we have released the code you will be able to import your wallet at any time and you will be good to go. 

No extra steps.

Thanks bytemaster, but I'm still confused.  You say that "we have decided to recommend that all future chains based upon the concept behind BitShares X be initialized with a snapshot (100%) of the state of BitShares XT around the time of their launch".  It seems to me that there are two snapshots, one of AngelShares/ProtoShares around Feb. 28 in order to claim BitShares XT, then another of BitShares XT around launch time in order to claim my stake in future chains based on the concept behind BitShares X.  Is this the case, or is there only one snapshot, that of AngelShares/ProtoShares on Feb. 28, which the distribution of both BitShares XT and all future chains based on the concept behind BitShares X will be based?

If the latter is true, than I understand that there are no extra steps.  If the former is true, then does this not mean that I have to ensure that I have downloaded the bitshares client and claimed my bitshares (from AngelShares) before this snapshot of BitShares XT is taken in order to claim my stake in future chains based on the concept behind BitShares X? 

Offline Markus

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Just wondering what time and what timezone on Feb 28th you will take the snapshot ? 

No actions to take on your part aside from making sure your PTS is in your local wallet (not on an exchange) prior to Feb 28th.   Once the snapshot is taken we will begin preparing for release.   After we have released the code you will be able to import your wallet at any time and you will be good to go. 

No extra steps.

All times on this forum are by default GMT/UTC

Offline bytemaster

Last block on 2/28.


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Offline sfinder

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Just wondering what time and what timezone on Feb 28th you will take the snapshot ? 

No actions to take on your part aside from making sure your PTS is in your local wallet (not on an exchange) prior to Feb 28th.   Once the snapshot is taken we will begin preparing for release.   After we have released the code you will be able to import your wallet at any time and you will be good to go. 

No extra steps.
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Offline bytemaster

No actions to take on your part aside from making sure your PTS is in your local wallet (not on an exchange) prior to Feb 28th.   Once the snapshot is taken we will begin preparing for release.   After we have released the code you will be able to import your wallet at any time and you will be good to go. 

No extra steps.
For the latest updates checkout my blog: http://bytemaster.bitshares.org
Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract between myself and anyone else.   These are merely my opinions and I reserve the right to change them at any time.

Offline xxeyes

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If our goal is to see the value of BitShares XT to grow then we need to future-proof peoples investment in BitShares XT after launch against being devalued by one of our planned upgrades or the flood of variants with different assets.   For this reason we have decided to recommend that all future chains based upon the concept behind BitShares X be initialized with a snapshot (100%) of the state of BitShares XT around the time of their launch.   Thus the primary vehicle for investing in future BitShares X chains will be to own BitShares XT.... likewise, chains that are variants of BitShares XI or XV should honor their parent with 100% stake.     


Bytemaster, would you please clarify how/when the snapshot of BitShares XT will occur.  It is my understanding that previous to this announcement, I could import the private key from the wallet from which I donated Bitcoin to AngelShares into the BitShares client sometime after launch to claim my Bitshares.  I presume this is still true.  However, I am not clear on when I have to do this in order to ensure that I am ready for the next snapshot - that of BitShares XT.  What if I (or another investor) is away on vacation around the February 28th launch of Bitshares?  I'm not terribly tech-savvy and sometimes I struggle to follow all this.  Now that we have an additional action to take before the snapshot that will define our stake in future BitShares chains, I am concerned I could somehow miss it...

Offline Ykw

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Whales who need significantly more than a fortnight to spread their AGS donations w/out affecting the price too much.

If I were a Whale, I would simple dump in 80 all at once at the start of the day and let everyone else move out of my way on to another day.
[…]

I meant a whale, not a dolphin :)
What would you do if your budget were 2000 BTC, you had planned on donating 10 a day (and done so since New Year) and are now stuck with 1400 BTC left?


May I suggest/comment... finish off that investment by 28th and distribute it over BTS holders (at genesis block chain) as the overcome of AGS/PTS is already pre-agreed to initial promised 10% for Future DACs (anything greater than that is only a bonus from invictus intentions over code dev and invictus value share)... and as because the main incentive for AGS is either re-investing already owned PTS or paying with BTC, then for the BTC investors after 28th, to invest in AGS or BTS would value the same entry point as it is now for AGS... meaning it will equally (my point of view) stand new investors to BTS or to already promised AGS 10% DACs honors. Some may not see this as a differentiated value, but it might become strong with future DACs announcements.

I see Adam's point of view (badly I must say.. I might be reading something not right.. or not).

I clearly see bytemaster point... but... I must say... HE HAS A DAM PATIENCE FOR CUSTOMERS!!! INVESTORS!!! MAN!!!!! I would not.... but I see the point on protecting and working out in a way to clear out others discussions.. over forums.. but is then when I lean a bit over the Adam's way.. it's complicated to follow all this posts... there are SO many! And I feel the pain in reading all off them just to keep pace. And... what I feel Adam is protesting about is.. that current investors should be given a bit more "relaxed announcements" for what is going around... and this could be for example.. keyhotee newsletter's, via the software email functionality... (will help the software to get distributed). Any other way may apply equally or better... It's just a pain to loose time finding if we are aligned with the investment we already did... I know our social world is becoming like that... more and more... but.. can invictus innovate here too? like that are doing.. all OVER the software ideas =P

I AM NO NOOB.. but either no expert.. I do like commenting and sharing ideas though..

Cheers...
Life is short!  +5% +5% +5% +5% +5%
« Last Edit: February 18, 2014, 01:38:15 am by Ykw »

Offline Markus

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Whales who need significantly more than a fortnight to spread their AGS donations w/out affecting the price too much.

If I were a Whale, I would simple dump in 80 all at once at the start of the day and let everyone else move out of my way on to another day.
[…]

I meant a whale, not a dolphin :)
What would you do if your budget were 2000 BTC, you had planned on donating 10 a day (and done so since New Year) and are now stuck with 1400 BTC left?

edit: Don't get it wrong, it's not me I'm talking about. I feel more like a herring.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2014, 02:29:40 am by Markus »

Offline bytemaster

Quote
Whales who need significantly more than a fortnight to spread their AGS donations w/out affecting the price too much.

If I were a Whale, I would simple dump in 80 all at once at the start of the day and let everyone else move out of my way on to another day.

But you are right, this could hurt Invictus fund raising starting in 2 weeks...  On the other hand it brings money forward in time.   

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Offline Markus

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Once again the whole issue boils down to "who gains" and "who loses out".

Who gains?
  • AGS holders January and February (they were promised at least 1 BTS per AGS, now they get 3 1/3)

Who loses?
  • Whales who need significantly more than a fortnight to spread their AGS donations w/out affecting the price too much.
  • Invictus because AGS for March and beyond lose value which will reduce funding.

PTS holders are not affected unless they sell off their BTS holdings. Anybody else standing at the sidelines watching can still get in easily. The price for acquiring BTS via AGS donation has gone up from 2$ per BTS to 3$ but I don't think anybody here considers that expensive.



Offline rysgc

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This really comes down to one very basic philosophical dispute about the rights of non-owners vs owners of AGS and PTS combined with a bit of envy when one group watches another gain more at no expense to their own position. 

Namely, every decision we have made benefited existing owners (by giving them a greater stake, increasing funding to back ideas, etc) but of course it came at a theoretical lost-opportunity for non existing owners.

All value comes from somewhere and there is only 100% of BTS to go around.  So the question is how does one get a cut of that pie?   Whether it is PTS or AGS or BTS you must buy it.  The only difference is who you buy it from:  power companies, Invictus, or previous owners of BTS.    In effect, the opportunity is still there for everyone who wants to get in.   The only thing that has changed by anything we have done is increase the value proposition for current owners and thus making it more expensive for those who come to the game later.   

The early investors took a bigger risk than the later investors and it should be expected that as things grow and improve that the price of entry would go up. 

So everyone who has a stake benefits from our decisions where as those who have passed on earlier opportunities missed out.   It isn't like the initial allocation is the FINAL allocation for all time.  PTS owners are not being diluted by the AGS owners, they were only promised 10% and are getting 50%...  the people buying AGS just took a bigger risk than those owning PTS.   And once again PTS owners are not being harmed by this recommendation... the value of their investment is just moving from one block-chain to a different block-chain as the plan was from the beginning.  Furthermore, we offered early PTS investors an opportunity to switch deals (giving us their PTS in exchange for AGS...) and everyone has known since Jan 24th that AGS would have a more favorable ratio in the first chain and if we are honest, most expected us to launch the first 50/50 chain long before AGS and PTS hit parity in supply. 

Had we kept with the reset to AGS/PTS recommendation then it would have harmed everyone (new and old investors alike).  New investors would still have to buy in and the power company would continue to get a large cut... but current investors would be diluted (paying for the power company, extra capital flowing to Invictus).   Likewise the uncertainty created by resetting every chain to AGS/PTS upon upgrade would have devalued the entire pie for everyone. 

What I think is going on here is that people think that 1 AGS and 1 PTS should have parity in value and share supply and that is a logical error.  Their values are almost entirely independent and changing over time relative to each other.   If I had said that there would be 1 million AGS per day but that it would still be split 50/50 between PTS and AGS holders it would be very clear that we have created TWO (or 3) independent pools  50/25/25 and each pool as different rules for getting a cut.  Mining, Donating and different inflation rates as well as different consequences of inflation (debasement, vs capital accumulation).   

We have taken care of everyone who has put their money into PTS or AGS and that is our job and primary motivation behind everything we do.
+5%
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Offline bytemaster

This really comes down to one very basic philosophical dispute about the rights of non-owners vs owners of AGS and PTS combined with a bit of envy when one group watches another gain more at no expense to their own position. 

Namely, every decision we have made benefited existing owners (by giving them a greater stake, increasing funding to back ideas, etc) but of course it came at a theoretical lost-opportunity for non existing owners.

All value comes from somewhere and there is only 100% of BTS to go around.  So the question is how does one get a cut of that pie?   Whether it is PTS or AGS or BTS you must buy it.  The only difference is who you buy it from:  power companies, Invictus, or previous owners of BTS.    In effect, the opportunity is still there for everyone who wants to get in.   The only thing that has changed by anything we have done is increase the value proposition for current owners and thus making it more expensive for those who come to the game later.   

The early investors took a bigger risk than the later investors and it should be expected that as things grow and improve that the price of entry would go up. 

So everyone who has a stake benefits from our decisions where as those who have passed on earlier opportunities missed out.   It isn't like the initial allocation is the FINAL allocation for all time.  PTS owners are not being diluted by the AGS owners, they were only promised 10% and are getting 50%...  the people buying AGS just took a bigger risk than those owning PTS.   And once again PTS owners are not being harmed by this recommendation... the value of their investment is just moving from one block-chain to a different block-chain as the plan was from the beginning.  Furthermore, we offered early PTS investors an opportunity to switch deals (giving us their PTS in exchange for AGS...) and everyone has known since Jan 24th that AGS would have a more favorable ratio in the first chain and if we are honest, most expected us to launch the first 50/50 chain long before AGS and PTS hit parity in supply. 

Had we kept with the reset to AGS/PTS recommendation then it would have harmed everyone (new and old investors alike).  New investors would still have to buy in and the power company would continue to get a large cut... but current investors would be diluted (paying for the power company, extra capital flowing to Invictus).   Likewise the uncertainty created by resetting every chain to AGS/PTS upon upgrade would have devalued the entire pie for everyone. 

What I think is going on here is that people think that 1 AGS and 1 PTS should have parity in value and share supply and that is a logical error.  Their values are almost entirely independent and changing over time relative to each other.   If I had said that there would be 1 million AGS per day but that it would still be split 50/50 between PTS and AGS holders it would be very clear that we have created TWO (or 3) independent pools  50/25/25 and each pool as different rules for getting a cut.  Mining, Donating and different inflation rates as well as different consequences of inflation (debasement, vs capital accumulation).   

We have taken care of everyone who has put their money into PTS or AGS and that is our job and primary motivation behind everything we do.

For the latest updates checkout my blog: http://bytemaster.bitshares.org
Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract between myself and anyone else.   These are merely my opinions and I reserve the right to change them at any time.

Offline AdamBLevine

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Offline onceuponatime

Hi Adam,

From a noobs perspective I think you're overreacting a bit.

In this fast evolving crypto space, I'd rather see a company adapt and make changes, then just continue the lesser original plan. If the funding with PTS was simply just not enough, then AGS was necessary. Something could be said about how AGS devalued PTS in the short term, but it's to late to reverse. But the value of PTS to BTS and following DAC's hasn't got worse.

So far the decisions made by III seem logical.

+5%  ( even though that has changed - it retains historical meaning as an affirmation)

Offline graffenwalder

Hi Adam,

From a noobs perspective I think you're overreacting a bit.

In this fast evolving crypto space, I'd rather see a company adapt and make changes, then just continue the lesser original plan. If the funding with PTS was simply just not enough, then AGS was necessary. Something could be said about how AGS devalued PTS in the short term, but it's to late to reverse. But the value of PTS to BTS and following DAC's hasn't got worse.

So far the decisions made by III seem logical.