Author Topic: Shorting Attack Protection?  (Read 6316 times)

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Online bitcrab

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Shorting Attack Protection?
« on: September 25, 2019, 11:24:28 am »
Last night, BTC experienced a price fall of more than 15%, and BTS more than 20%.

What we have oberserved at ZB:

In one hour 400M BTS are sold, obviously not real trading.
BTS withdraw is forbidden in a long time.
as many traders have accounts in ZB and other CEX, they can arbitrage without withdraw/deposit, so finally BTS price in all the CEX fall down.

IMHO this is a typical shorting attack, the margin call mechanism in DEX actually always help this kind of shorting attack, the whole BTS ecosystem suffer this shorting attack for long time, I feel we need to find some solution for this, as we have applied GS protection, we also need some "shorting attack protection"  , otherwise I can't see the future of BTS.

the key point of this protection is to avoid rapid and big price fall in price feeding following the market price, for example, we can introduce MA5 in DEX as a reference:

Code: [Select]
if MA5<1.05*market price
   feed price = market price
else feed price =(MA5+market price)/2

I believe that we need one shorting attack protection algorithm to avoid the disaster like last night. we have to do something to avoid BTS price fall to 0 in rounds of shorting attack.

before the community reach consensus on this topic, can we do something?

abit is now feeding 0.22CNY and 0.035USD instead of feeding market price, is that a senseful and urgent measure to help BTS to go out of the shorting attack trap? https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=29633.0

as some witnesses had done to avoid bitCNY falling in GS before the GS protection BSIP is approved by stakeholders?
« Last Edit: September 25, 2019, 11:27:17 am by bitcrab »

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Re: Shorting Attack Protection?
« Reply #1 on: September 25, 2019, 12:48:55 pm »
My idea is essentially to stop maintaining the peg when we can't afford to maintain it.

The cost to maintain the peg "in all conditions" is simply too big for us. Better to give up at some point.
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Offline Thul3

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Re: Shorting Attack Protection?
« Reply #2 on: September 25, 2019, 12:58:36 pm »
Would this happen it would have a nice side effect.People would be buying with major assets on CEX as it would be significant cheaper.
« Last Edit: September 25, 2019, 01:04:55 pm by Thul3 »

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Re: Shorting Attack Protection?
« Reply #3 on: September 25, 2019, 01:43:45 pm »
Would this happen it would have a nice side effect.People would be buying with major assets on CEX as it would be significant cheaper.
No, bitUSD, bitCNY and etc will devalue, thus buying from CEX is not cheaper, if you're talking about my idea but not bitcrab's.

Bitcrab's idea will lead to devaluation in downtrend of BTS, but premium in uptrend which will result in force-settlement issues.
« Last Edit: September 25, 2019, 01:46:12 pm by abit »
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Re: Shorting Attack Protection?
« Reply #4 on: September 25, 2019, 02:40:13 pm »
My idea is essentially to stop maintaining the peg when we can't afford to maintain it.

The cost to maintain the peg "in all conditions" is simply too big for us. Better to give up at some point.

Make sense.
We have paid too much to maintain the peg of bitCNY and bitUSD, which also partly cause the weak trend of BTS, and bring huge pain to the community.
gdex.witness plan to follow in.abit to guarantee the feed price be higher than 0.22CNY or 0.035USD from tomorrow before community reach an advance consensus.
« Last Edit: September 25, 2019, 02:42:19 pm by bitcrab »

Offline finn-bts

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Re: Shorting Attack Protection?
« Reply #5 on: September 25, 2019, 03:14:40 pm »
I am in favor of locking in the feed price to a reasonable position. BTS holders have suffered serious losses due to the false price offered by some external exchanges.

Offline Thom

Re: Shorting Attack Protection?
« Reply #6 on: September 25, 2019, 03:25:29 pm »
My idea is essentially to stop maintaining the peg when we can't afford to maintain it.

The cost to maintain the peg "in all conditions" is simply too big for us. Better to give up at some point.

You're scaring me @abit, I agree. But it's not consensus, is individual move. 
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Offline Thul3

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Re: Shorting Attack Protection?
« Reply #7 on: September 25, 2019, 03:40:36 pm »
In my opiniom its taking responsabilty and some leadership.
Community is not allowed to protect itself from
manipulation because people have diffrent opinions and completly nothing is being done but just talking and suffering from obvious manipulations.

Do you see anybody else being active to look for a solution?

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Re: Shorting Attack Protection?
« Reply #8 on: September 25, 2019, 04:54:31 pm »
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Re: Shorting Attack Protection?
« Reply #9 on: September 25, 2019, 05:32:32 pm »
stop maintaining the peg when we can't afford to maintain it.

The cost to maintain the peg "in all conditions" is simply too big for us. Better to give up at some point.

Who is "we" and "us", and what cost is associated with feeding the external price?

The obvious point where we can't maintain the peg anymore is GS price, and we have already agreed to not feed below it.

Why do you want to feed above GS if real price is lower, personal interests aside?

Feeding an arbitrary price that has nothing to do with market conditions is (once again) a kick in the ass of every smartcoin holder.
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Offline bitProfessor

Re: Shorting Attack Protection?
« Reply #10 on: September 25, 2019, 06:01:58 pm »
1、yes,we have paid too much to maintain the peg of bitCNY and bitUSD.
2、It's time to think about giving up the peg of bitCNY and focus on dex.

Offline Thul3

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Re: Shorting Attack Protection?
« Reply #11 on: September 25, 2019, 06:05:19 pm »
stop maintaining the peg when we can't afford to maintain it.

The cost to maintain the peg "in all conditions" is simply too big for us. Better to give up at some point.

Who is "we" and "us", and what cost is associated with feeding the external price?

The obvious point where we can't maintain the peg anymore is GS price, and we have already agreed to not feed below it.

Why do you want to feed above GS if real price is lower, personal interests aside?

Feeding an arbitrary price that has nothing to do with market conditions is (once again) a kick in the ass of every smartcoin holder.

Why you always take the side of smartcoin holders ?
People are blocking to fight price manipulation so why should debt holder suffer from it?
Also bitshares community is already so small and not growing do you want to lose the next group ?
A major smartcoin holder has already said his opinion and blocking any movement to protect against price manipulation with the words .....I give a fuck if debt holders will get rekkt.
So why should debt holders give a fuck if he is losing his pegg if its him blocking any protection against price manipulation.

Where is your solution or discussion for price manipulation btw ?
Why don't you get upset that bitshares debt holders get rekkt because of price feed manipulation ?

Haven't seen any active discussion from you there.....only always if its about protecting the smartcoin.
« Last Edit: September 25, 2019, 06:07:45 pm by Thul3 »

Offline bitProfessor

Re: Shorting Attack Protection?
« Reply #12 on: September 25, 2019, 06:30:52 pm »
Tonight I asked Clockwork how to make BTS great? More investors, he said.
Good answer!!!
Why do investors invest in bts? Faith? No,   investors want to make money, not be eaten.
”Ah, this is the free market. Let them die naturally.“
First , this is not a question of a free economy. Secondly, BTS is an experiment, and there are still many things to be improved.
At present, we only have 5000 active users, a large number of users have left. This is not their fault, but our fault, it is the fault of bts.
As clockwork said, more investors are needed, and we should focus on how to make investors more willing to invest in bts.
1、No longer pursue 100% peg of bitCNY,Allow CNY to fluctuate in order to attract a large number of investors and arbitrageurs with low risk preferences and to activate the market。
2、Gradually increase repurchase efforts to attract investors。
3、In addition, we should stimulate market activity like casinos to attract investors with high risk preference.(thinking)

Offline pc

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Re: Shorting Attack Protection?
« Reply #13 on: September 25, 2019, 08:05:50 pm »
stop maintaining the peg when we can't afford to maintain it.

The cost to maintain the peg "in all conditions" is simply too big for us. Better to give up at some point.

Who is "we" and "us", and what cost is associated with feeding the external price?

The obvious point where we can't maintain the peg anymore is GS price, and we have already agreed to not feed below it.

Why do you want to feed above GS if real price is lower, personal interests aside?

Feeding an arbitrary price that has nothing to do with market conditions is (once again) a kick in the ass of every smartcoin holder.

Why you always take the side of smartcoin holders ?
People are blocking to fight price manipulation so why should debt holder suffer from it?
Also bitshares community is already so small and not growing do you want to lose the next group ?
A major smartcoin holder has already said his opinion and blocking any movement to protect against price manipulation with the words .....I give a fuck if debt holders will get rekkt.
So why should debt holders give a fuck if he is losing his pegg if its him blocking any protection against price manipulation.

Where is your solution or discussion for price manipulation btw ?
Why don't you get upset that bitshares debt holders get rekkt because of price feed manipulation ?

Haven't seen any active discussion from you there.....only always if its about protecting the smartcoin.

1. I'm being paid for my work in smartcoins. Last year I took losses from bitUSD global settlement, now it looks like I'm losing in bitCNY due to price manipulation.
2. Smartcoins have guarantees that keep being broken over and over again, in the interest of margin position holders.
3. Smartcoin holders are being treated unfairly by the margin position holders. Margin position holders have the voting power from BTS that is no longer theirs, and they abuse that power to bend the rules in their favour.
4. The only price manipulation I'm aware of is the manipulation performed by feed providers. Many witnesses were coerced into manipulating prices by abuse of margin position holders' voting power.
5. I don't have a solution for price manipulation. What makes you think I should have one?
6. I don't get upset about debt holders because they took their chances and lost. Now they're complaining about markets being unfair. I didn't hear complaints when they were on the winning side. Complaining when you've bet on the wrong horse is lame.

See, I'm answering your questions. Now you answer mine. I asked first, btw.
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Offline alt

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Re: Shorting Attack Protection?
« Reply #14 on: September 25, 2019, 09:38:48 pm »
I agree we should protect if there are enough evidence proof CEX manipulate the price.
but it's too danger to totally ignore the price from CEX if the price continue drop.
I think give a higher price related to current price is much better than a bottom price, for example 10% higher,
this could stop mostly shorter attack, we can reduce this gap when the influence from mainipulate reduce.

Offline bitProfessor

Re: Shorting Attack Protection?
« Reply #15 on: September 26, 2019, 01:00:54 am »
I agree we should protect if there are enough evidence proof CEX manipulate the price.
but it's too danger to totally ignore the price from CEX if the price continue drop.
I think give a higher price related to current price is much better than a bottom price, for example 10% higher,
this could stop mostly shorter attack, we can reduce this gap when the influence from mainipulate reduce.

https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=29641.0

Offline akledirs

Re: Shorting Attack Protection?
« Reply #16 on: September 26, 2019, 08:20:15 pm »
Again damage mechanismes which garantee collateral for MPA? BSIP42 was not enough? Again bitcrab? :(BTS RiP

Offline Imm_Ortal

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Re: Shorting Attack Protection?
« Reply #17 on: September 28, 2019, 11:08:55 pm »
If BitUSD is not pegged and is not collateralized, then what is it worth for?

If a BitUSD is worth a USD under the condition that BTS is increasing in price, then what's the point of holding BitUSD instead of Bts directly, for a new user?

Same for BitCNY.

What a misserable and coward spirit of a crawling crab who, is ready to damage the reputation of a system created as an alternative for all mankind, in order to save his ass, evading the consequences of his own rist appetite.

Offline Imm_Ortal

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Re: Shorting Attack Protection?
« Reply #18 on: September 29, 2019, 12:50:46 am »

Business models, for years, have been created on the premise that 1 BitUSD is pegged to 1 USD. And now, in a matter of a few days you want to turn them down because your greedy instinct burned your ass?

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Re: Shorting Attack Protection?
« Reply #19 on: September 29, 2019, 03:28:10 am »
If the exact peg finally lead BTS to 0, why should we insist on it?

smartcoin peg is one purpose of BTS, not all, or not at the highest priority.

we just found that BTS cannot afford smartcoin exact peg at any conditions, need to adjust the policy.

Offline bitProfessor

Re: Shorting Attack Protection?
« Reply #20 on: September 29, 2019, 04:46:20 am »
If the exact peg finally lead BTS to 0, why should we insist on it?

smartcoin peg is one purpose of BTS, not all, or not at the highest priority.

we just found that BTS cannot afford smartcoin exact peg at any conditions, need to adjust the policy.
Agree

Offline Sapiens

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Re: Shorting Attack Protection?
« Reply #21 on: October 01, 2019, 06:05:03 pm »
If the exact peg finally lead BTS to 0, why should we insist on it?

smartcoin peg is one purpose of BTS, not all, or not at the highest priority.

we just found that BTS cannot afford smartcoin exact peg at any conditions, need to adjust the policy.

Because it is not the peg what drives Bts price down. Proof of this is that we have had sustained increases in dollar price without breaking the peg in the past.

What drives price down is the dumping on CEXs. Do you want to drive price up? Simply stop the dumping. Do you want to stop the dumping? Simply convince people that Bitshares is a reliable ecosystem.

Finally, you want to generate a long term damage to this network? Simply deteriorate people's faith on it. Just like you are doing right now.

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Re: Shorting Attack Protection?
« Reply #22 on: October 01, 2019, 06:20:39 pm »
If the exact peg finally lead BTS to 0, why should we insist on it?

smartcoin peg is one purpose of BTS, not all, or not at the highest priority.

we just found that BTS cannot afford smartcoin exact peg at any conditions, need to adjust the policy.

Because it is not the peg what drives Bts price down. Proof of this is that we have had sustained increases in dollar price without breaking the peg in the past.

it is, obviously.

the margin call mechanism provide chance to shorters.

Offline R

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Re: Shorting Attack Protection?
« Reply #23 on: November 02, 2019, 04:13:19 pm »
ZB has outright refuted these claims: https://twitter.com/ZB_Group/status/1188771828967206912?s=20

So who's lying? OP or ZB? If ZB is as corrupt as you all claim, why aren't you encouraging everyone to pull their BTS from their CEX and denouncing them more severely?

Online binggo

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Re: Shorting Attack Protection?
« Reply #24 on: November 03, 2019, 12:44:44 am »
ZB has outright refuted these claims: https://twitter.com/ZB_Group/status/1188771828967206912?s=20

So who's lying? OP or ZB? If ZB is as corrupt as you all claim, why aren't you encouraging everyone to pull their BTS from their CEX and denouncing them more severely?

Oh, you believed ZB? That's very interesting.

Why aren't you encouraging everyone to pull their BTS from their CEX and denouncing them more severely?

So, you can do what you want to do, and believe what you want to believe.

Offline bench

Re: Shorting Attack Protection?
« Reply #25 on: November 03, 2019, 01:33:56 am »
Be part of the change and vote for the bitshares-vision proxy!

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Re: Shorting Attack Protection?
« Reply #26 on: November 03, 2019, 02:13:43 am »

Offline R

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Re: Shorting Attack Protection?
« Reply #27 on: November 03, 2019, 01:05:27 pm »
ZB has outright refuted these claims: https://twitter.com/ZB_Group/status/1188771828967206912?s=20

So who's lying? OP or ZB? If ZB is as corrupt as you all claim, why aren't you encouraging everyone to pull their BTS from their CEX and denouncing them more severely?

Oh, you believed ZB? That's very interesting.

Why aren't you encouraging everyone to pull their BTS from their CEX and denouncing them more severely?

So, you can do what you want to do, and believe what you want to believe.
I don't believe either party regarding the 'short attack'. I don't hold my BTS in CEX nor do I know anyone that uses ZB to store BTS, if you're willing to publicly accuse ZB of wrongdoing then surely the onus is on you? Seems half measured.

Online binggo

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Re: Shorting Attack Protection?
« Reply #28 on: November 03, 2019, 02:05:40 pm »
ZB has outright refuted these claims: https://twitter.com/ZB_Group/status/1188771828967206912?s=20

So who's lying? OP or ZB? If ZB is as corrupt as you all claim, why aren't you encouraging everyone to pull their BTS from their CEX and denouncing them more severely?

Oh, you believed ZB? That's very interesting.

Why aren't you encouraging everyone to pull their BTS from their CEX and denouncing them more severely?

So, you can do what you want to do, and believe what you want to believe.
I don't believe either party regarding the 'short attack'. I don't hold my BTS in CEX nor do I know anyone that uses ZB to store BTS, if you're willing to publicly accuse ZB of wrongdoing then surely the onus is on you? Seems half measured.

It's very interesting about your thought, You believe it or not believe it, nobody care, if you want the true, to find  out by yourself.

Offline R

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Re: Shorting Attack Protection?
« Reply #29 on: November 03, 2019, 02:23:36 pm »
ZB has outright refuted these claims: https://twitter.com/ZB_Group/status/1188771828967206912?s=20

So who's lying? OP or ZB? If ZB is as corrupt as you all claim, why aren't you encouraging everyone to pull their BTS from their CEX and denouncing them more severely?

Oh, you believed ZB? That's very interesting.

Why aren't you encouraging everyone to pull their BTS from their CEX and denouncing them more severely?

So, you can do what you want to do, and believe what you want to believe.
I don't believe either party regarding the 'short attack'. I don't hold my BTS in CEX nor do I know anyone that uses ZB to store BTS, if you're willing to publicly accuse ZB of wrongdoing then surely the onus is on you? Seems half measured.

It's very interesting about your thought, You believe it or not believe it, nobody care, if you want the true, to find  out by yourself.

Find out for myself whether or not this is true? One party says x, another says y, another allegedly uses it as justification for devious acts: https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=29659.msg336083#msg336083 I'll probably just avoid using the bitassets for a while, too much drama.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2019, 12:21:23 am by R »

Offline litepresence

Re: Shorting Attack Protection?
« Reply #30 on: January 12, 2020, 07:20:39 pm »
I read BSIP76 and this thread for the first time today; as a free market advocate, I generally try not to get too involved in political matters.

Today, as I get caught up on these discussions... I must say, aside from Jerome Powell justifying yet another fedgov bank bailout, I cannot remember having ever read such a self serving and corrupt crock of shit.

You should all be ashamed of yourselves.   

The nature of this discussion is anathema to the Austrian economic principles this chain is supposed to herald.

Murray Rothbard is rolling in his grave.

There is no shorting attack.   The price is the price.   

You want it higher?  BUY. 

Else GTFO with your, "pity me because I'm an under collateralized gambling addict."

Flatly Disgusted



Offline Thul3

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Re: Shorting Attack Protection?
« Reply #31 on: January 12, 2020, 07:56:16 pm »
Austrian economic principles


Maybe you can show us a working austrian econonomic principle in the real world ?

Offline litepresence

Re: Shorting Attack Protection?
« Reply #32 on: January 12, 2020, 08:19:08 pm »
Maybe you can show us a working austrian econonomic principle in the real world ?



Offline Thul3

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Re: Shorting Attack Protection?
« Reply #33 on: January 12, 2020, 08:31:35 pm »
Unable to show any working austrian econemy ?
Maybe because it's an unrealistic theory in a world with manipulated markets giving the opporunity of getting milked by manipulaters when knowing you do nothing against it ?
You think within austrian econemy there will be no groups trying to manipulate and dominate ?

Did you ever saw the "soziale Marktwitschaft" from germany in the 90's ?
The austrian econemy is nothing compared to it as it even was able to defend the public from manipulation abuse.
Unluckily it was destroyed by the US who milked after that the shit out of that fair econemy.

Bought cheap companies,fired people,reduced wages/cost,increased profitability on paper and sold it for a pop quickly with big profit creating mass unemployment and a low wage industry in the long run.
You think this would be diffrent with austrian econemy ?



Your descriptions of margin call should show what ?
That your margin call will get liquidated even without notification ?

You are comparing liquid markets with iliquid ones ?

Easy solution why haven't you liquidated the margin wall when it existed ?
You think these companies would wait (for a longer timeframe) either and push the diffrence as debt to the margin owner ?

What are you comparing ?


Quote
The social market economy, also called Rhine capitalism, is a socioeconomic model combining a free market capitalist economic system alongside social policies that establish both fair competition within the market and a welfare state. It is sometimes classified as a coordinated market economy.


Maybe you wanna tell me from what people are going to live once industry 4.0 have been fully implemented based on austrian econemy ?
« Last Edit: January 12, 2020, 09:12:45 pm by Thul3 »

Online binggo

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Re: Shorting Attack Protection?
« Reply #34 on: January 12, 2020, 11:53:33 pm »
Austrian econemy? en, just in the book, all will be dead in the real world.