Author Topic: Connecting Keyhotee and Protoshares  (Read 5492 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline ruletheworld

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 162
    • View Profile
    • BTC Geek
Connecting Keyhotee and Protoshares
« on: November 10, 2013, 09:16:30 pm »
I understand that Protoshares are meant to be a bet on the value of all future DACs created by Invictus. You have a one to one relationship between Protoshares and Bitshares when they are released, but what's the relation between Protoshares and Keyhotee, if any? I might be missing something here, but just wanted to ask and clarify.
PTS: PYRqARWMGQ1PeZvjJM6iWJxf2ouwYcueHF
BTC: 1NeRoAKp137GTDUEBaonbu5BUGPN17Xw5n
http://btcgeek.com

Offline Lighthouse

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 376
  • Making a Market in PTS since 11/06/2013
    • View Profile
    • Lighthouse Bulk Orders and Trusted Escrow (Closed)
Re: Connecting Keyhotee and Protoshares
« Reply #1 on: November 10, 2013, 09:46:10 pm »
Keyhotee relies on a blockchain called Nameshares, which will also be forked from Protoshares.  Also Domainshares and whatever else they decide to develop.
Before you say the price of PTS is too high, take a look at theThe Reason.  Protoshares are an entirely new type of Cryptocurrency, one that pays to hold.

Offline ruletheworld

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 162
    • View Profile
    • BTC Geek
Re: Connecting Keyhotee and Protoshares
« Reply #2 on: November 10, 2013, 10:20:09 pm »
Keyhotee relies on a blockchain called Nameshares, which will also be forked from Protoshares.  Also Domainshares and whatever else they decide to develop.
Ah gotcha. So 1 protoshare will give you 1 nameshare, 1 domainshare, 1 bitshare and anything else that's developed, correct?
PTS: PYRqARWMGQ1PeZvjJM6iWJxf2ouwYcueHF
BTC: 1NeRoAKp137GTDUEBaonbu5BUGPN17Xw5n
http://btcgeek.com

Offline Lighthouse

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 376
  • Making a Market in PTS since 11/06/2013
    • View Profile
    • Lighthouse Bulk Orders and Trusted Escrow (Closed)
Re: Connecting Keyhotee and Protoshares
« Reply #3 on: November 10, 2013, 11:22:58 pm »
Yeah, that's the promise.  I really like that for a cryptocurrency, it's like buying futures against a dividend paying stock, except the dividend 1:1 stock an entirely new company
Before you say the price of PTS is too high, take a look at theThe Reason.  Protoshares are an entirely new type of Cryptocurrency, one that pays to hold.

Offline bg002h

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 24
    • View Profile
Re: Connecting Keyhotee and Protoshares
« Reply #4 on: November 11, 2013, 02:56:28 am »
Fill in the blank:

1 protoshare = x % of all protoshares ever to be mined (2 million total was it?)
1 bitshare = y% of all bitshares ever to be mined (??)

1 protoshare = z bitshares (1.0 I believe)

x/y

Offline ruletheworld

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 162
    • View Profile
    • BTC Geek
Re: Connecting Keyhotee and Protoshares
« Reply #5 on: November 11, 2013, 03:15:34 am »
@Lighthouse, I agree. It's hard to price protoshares like any other altcoin because it is just different. Invictus has exciting things rolling out, not to mention, any of us can always fork protoshares into some other awesome thing, right :)

@bg002h, you're right, there will be 2 million protoshares, 21 million bitshares and the ratio is 1:1
PTS: PYRqARWMGQ1PeZvjJM6iWJxf2ouwYcueHF
BTC: 1NeRoAKp137GTDUEBaonbu5BUGPN17Xw5n
http://btcgeek.com

Offline Stan

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2904
  • You need to think BIGGER, Pinky...
    • View Profile
    • Cryptonomex
  • BitShares: Stan
Re: Connecting Keyhotee and Protoshares
« Reply #6 on: November 11, 2013, 05:00:43 am »
Exactly.  Nothing says anyone in the community can't fork off of ProtoShares, BitShares or one of its grandchildren, as appropriate.  We encourage it.  The more DACs from all sources that carry a developer's commitment to honor the ProtoShares social contract, the greater the value ProtoShares will have to those who manage to get some now (and the more launch velocity DAC developers can inherit from this freight train's momentum.)
Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract of any kind.   These are merely my opinions which I reserve the right to change at any time.

Offline Stan

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2904
  • You need to think BIGGER, Pinky...
    • View Profile
    • Cryptonomex
  • BitShares: Stan
Re: Connecting Keyhotee and Protoshares
« Reply #7 on: November 11, 2013, 05:28:26 am »
Fill in the blank:

1 protoshare = x % of all protoshares ever to be mined (2 million total was it?)
1 bitshare = y% of all bitshares ever to be mined (??)

1 protoshare = z bitshares (1.0 I believe)

x/y

In principle, any DAC developer can specify the terms of their social contract wrt to ProtoShares or one of its descendants.  The social contract we published for BitShares is that it would be initialized with one BitShare for every ProtoShare a person owns at the pre-published time of launch.  Its not percent based, its a one-for-one snapshot.  Other DACs from Invictus or other sources may specify different terms and conditions and the market will reward the ones they like.  The more different types of DAC shares that ownership of ProtoShares becomes good for, the more we would expect ProtoShares market value to rise.
Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract of any kind.   These are merely my opinions which I reserve the right to change at any time.

Offline Lighthouse

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 376
  • Making a Market in PTS since 11/06/2013
    • View Profile
    • Lighthouse Bulk Orders and Trusted Escrow (Closed)
Re: Connecting Keyhotee and Protoshares
« Reply #8 on: November 11, 2013, 06:26:22 am »

In principle, any DAC developer can specify the terms of their social contract wrt to ProtoShares or one of its descendants.  The social contract we published for BitShares is that it would be initialized with one BitShare for every ProtoShare a person owns at the pre-published time of launch.  Its not percent based, its a one-for-one snapshot.  Other DACs from Invictus or other sources may specify different terms and conditions and the market will reward the ones they like.  The more different types of DAC shares that ownership of ProtoShares becomes good for, the more we would expect ProtoShares market value to rise.

Does that mean that Domainshares won't be given to holders of Protoshares?  I was under the impression Protoshares would be honored with every invictus blockchain product.  Did I misunderstand?
Before you say the price of PTS is too high, take a look at theThe Reason.  Protoshares are an entirely new type of Cryptocurrency, one that pays to hold.

Offline Stan

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2904
  • You need to think BIGGER, Pinky...
    • View Profile
    • Cryptonomex
  • BitShares: Stan
Re: Connecting Keyhotee and Protoshares
« Reply #9 on: November 11, 2013, 07:09:13 pm »
ProtoShares is intended to be the granddaddy of all our DACs as far ahead as we can see.  There remain at least two variables:  (a) where in the family tree a new DAC plugs in and (b) the specific Terms and Conditions for mapping shares down the tree.  These may vary from DAC to DAC and developer to developer and will adapt to lessons learned over time.  The tree location must be considered carefully since we want children to predict the market value of their specialty area's Key Ideas.  Thus, other exchange type DACs will naturally be children of BitShares (grandchildren of ProtoShares) but DomainShares will probably plug straight in as a child of ProtoShares.  We are watching market reaction and listening to the forum before we commit to such details for DomainShares.  So far the only thing cast in concrete is our social contract to map ProtoShares to BitShares on a one-to-one share basis when its genesis block is laid down.  Naturally, the sooner we can decide and make a public commitment for other DACs, the better it will be for all investors.  But we need to listen and observe first.
Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract of any kind.   These are merely my opinions which I reserve the right to change at any time.

Offline Lighthouse

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 376
  • Making a Market in PTS since 11/06/2013
    • View Profile
    • Lighthouse Bulk Orders and Trusted Escrow (Closed)
Re: Connecting Keyhotee and Protoshares
« Reply #10 on: November 11, 2013, 08:12:18 pm »
I think thats a reasonable position but I don't think that's been clearly articulated in your material.  I had understood it as Protocoin was the point from which all new chains would be forked, but you're saying that Protoshares -> Bitshares but then instead of Protoshares -> New Chain it will be Bitshares ->  New Chain, which means that once Bitshares are issued to protoshares holders the value of protoshares is mostly gone.

How would a non-invictus DAC benefit from protoshares?  Unless they're mining now, they won't have any substantial number so what advantage is there issuing to holders of protoshares besides giving them their new coin for free instantly?  I don't understand the value to a company not already owning lots of Protoshares
Before you say the price of PTS is too high, take a look at theThe Reason.  Protoshares are an entirely new type of Cryptocurrency, one that pays to hold.

Offline Stan

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2904
  • You need to think BIGGER, Pinky...
    • View Profile
    • Cryptonomex
  • BitShares: Stan
Re: Connecting Keyhotee and Protoshares
« Reply #11 on: November 11, 2013, 09:21:54 pm »
These kind of issues are why we are waiting for forum feedback like yours before committing one way or another. 

Our first newsletter covered this is some detail (see the News tab at invictus-innovations.com).  There we speculated:

Quote
Can you imagine if you had owned ProtoShares for the idea of a web browser? By the time Netscape,
Firefox, Internet Explorer, Safari, and Chrome had been implemented, you would own shares in every
one of them! Who would try to introduce a new browser without honoring the market share of current
browser ProtoShares holders? ProtoShares are like ownership in a patent that never expires – entitling
you to “royalties” in all future implementations of the idea!

The assumption is that subsequent arriving competitors would see several advantages to honoring the protoshares of an existing DAC:

  • It would give the most informed and committed stakeholders an incentive to view their new implementation favorably.
  • It would leverage an already existing community with populated forums, trading mechanisms, and reputations already established.
  • Some DACs may require a critical mass of shares to pre-exist in order to function efficiently or at all.  This is a way to initialize a DACs market with informed owners and an operative money supply.
  • By investing in those ProtoShares before announcing that social contract, they might expect to grow the value of ProtoShares for everybody and hence raise some capital to fund their own development.

Of course, that last bullet factors into their consideration of where to hook on in the family tree.  The higher you hook on the more stakeholders you inherit.  The lower you hook on the more your announcement will influence the value of your acquired stake.  There's also the theoretical possibility of specifying your DAC's social contract to include multiple inheritance.  Think about that one.

Lots to be learned here.  Hoping for new ideas and a robust discussion of their pros and cons.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2013, 09:26:59 pm by Stan »
Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract of any kind.   These are merely my opinions which I reserve the right to change at any time.

Offline ruletheworld

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 162
    • View Profile
    • BTC Geek
Re: Connecting Keyhotee and Protoshares
« Reply #12 on: November 12, 2013, 02:08:46 am »
Stan, did you make a decision about how many Nameshares each Protoshare will be eligible for?
PTS: PYRqARWMGQ1PeZvjJM6iWJxf2ouwYcueHF
BTC: 1NeRoAKp137GTDUEBaonbu5BUGPN17Xw5n
http://btcgeek.com

Offline Stan

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2904
  • You need to think BIGGER, Pinky...
    • View Profile
    • Cryptonomex
  • BitShares: Stan
Re: Connecting Keyhotee and Protoshares
« Reply #13 on: November 12, 2013, 07:06:35 pm »
We need to see some discussion and forum feedback first.

(And we need to get ProtoShares and Keyhotee safely launched into sustained stable autonomous flight.)

Then we will think real hard for several minutes and decide.

 :)
Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract of any kind.   These are merely my opinions which I reserve the right to change at any time.

Offline phoenix

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 275
    • View Profile
Re: Connecting Keyhotee and Protoshares
« Reply #14 on: November 12, 2013, 11:40:59 pm »
What exactly are the uses for nameshares? Will they be used to increase the rating of your id?
Protoshares: Pg5EhSZEXHFjdFUzpxJbm91UtA54iUuDvt
Bitmessage: BM-NBrGi2V3BZ8REnJM7FPxUjjkQp7V5D28

Offline ruletheworld

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 162
    • View Profile
    • BTC Geek
Re: Connecting Keyhotee and Protoshares
« Reply #15 on: November 13, 2013, 12:22:09 am »
We need to see some discussion and forum feedback first.

(And we need to get ProtoShares and Keyhotee safely launched into sustained stable autonomous flight.)

Then we will think real hard for several minutes and decide.

 :)

Hah fair enough Stan, I was asking to see how we might value our previous PTS in the near future!
PTS: PYRqARWMGQ1PeZvjJM6iWJxf2ouwYcueHF
BTC: 1NeRoAKp137GTDUEBaonbu5BUGPN17Xw5n
http://btcgeek.com

Offline Stan

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2904
  • You need to think BIGGER, Pinky...
    • View Profile
    • Cryptonomex
  • BitShares: Stan
Re: Connecting Keyhotee and Protoshares
« Reply #16 on: November 13, 2013, 12:28:25 am »
Well, call me biased, but in my opinion:  Priceless.   :)
« Last Edit: November 13, 2013, 02:58:02 am by Stan »
Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract of any kind.   These are merely my opinions which I reserve the right to change at any time.

Offline Stan

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2904
  • You need to think BIGGER, Pinky...
    • View Profile
    • Cryptonomex
  • BitShares: Stan
Re: Connecting Keyhotee and Protoshares
« Reply #17 on: November 13, 2013, 01:00:11 am »
First, lets be clear.  There are two kinds of names:  Keyhotee IDs and DomainNames.  The first is for individuals. The second is for IP addresses.

DomainShares will be our distributed DAC based version of a domain name server where your name connection to your IP address can't be taken down by anybody.  You use mined or purchased DomainShares currency to bid for and trade domain names.  With Keyhotee and somebody's DomainName you can always reach them.  It will also contain features to keep names liquid and discourage squatting.  We'll publish a lot more on this when its Day in the Sun has arrived.

Keyhotee IDs are a repository for credentials.  They can be as simple as a sock puppet email address or as complex as a fully documented identity tracing back to an accountable real person and his or her entire documented set of credentials and lifetime reputation.  (We've seen the need for that already in this forum!)

The key is that with Keyhotee ID, people can tell the difference between a sock puppet and a Person of Character!  Read more about it in Newsletter 02, available under the news tab at Invictus-Innovations.com.

While you do have to "mine" your Keyhotee ID into existence with a token proof of work, we do not view Keyhotee IDs as something you purchase with a crypto-currency.  They are available first-come-first-served to anyone who uses Keyhotee to "mine" them into existence. 

Keep in mind that Keyhotee is not a DAC. It is an application. Perhaps you can think of it as a DAC browser.  A tool for doing business with DACs and other humans in a secure fashion - whether exchanging communications or crypto-currencies.

Now, as for buying an increased rating, we want to be vewy, vewy careful with that.  Reputations are not for sale.  Reputations must be earned.  Still we felt that founding investors in the Keyhotee ecosystem should merit a little recognition that would translate into your reputation like someone who builds a new wing on a hospital or something.  So we created the Keyhotee Founder's ID as a way to recognize a community contribution, not to buy a reputation. 

What will that be worth?  Well, if you helped found the ecosystem and have an immortal position in the genesis block, you are probably not going to throw away that irreplaceable credential on some cheap scam.  So you'll protect it.  And people will know you have something to lose if you abuse it.  And once you do abuse it, it will no longer be of value to you.

Think of what that would be worth to you during the early days of this forum.  You would have had instant moderator levels of clout, just because you are using your uncounterfeitable Good Name.  Your Keyhotee ID.

Earn it.  Protect it.  Enjoy it.


Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract of any kind.   These are merely my opinions which I reserve the right to change at any time.

Offline ruletheworld

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 162
    • View Profile
    • BTC Geek
Re: Connecting Keyhotee and Protoshares
« Reply #18 on: November 13, 2013, 01:13:35 am »
First, lets be clear.  There are two kinds of names:  Keyhotee IDs and DomainNames.  The first is for individuals. The second is for IP addresses.

DomainShares will be our distributed DAC based version of a domain name server where your name connection to your IP address can't be taken down by anybody.  You use mined or purchased DomainShares currency to bid for and trade domain names.  With Keyhotee and somebody's DomainName you can always reach them.  It will also contain features to keep names liquid and discourage squatting.  We'll publish a lot more on this when its Day in the Sun has arrived.

Keyhotee IDs are a repository for credentials.  They can be as simple as a sock puppet email address or as complex as a fully documented identity tracing back to an accountable real person and his or her entire documented set of credentials and lifetime reputation.  (We've seen the need for that already in this forum!)

The key is that with Keyhotee ID, people can tell the difference between a sock puppet and a Person of Character!  Read more about it in Newsletter 02, available under the news tab at Invictus-Innovations.com.

While you do have to "mine" your Keyhotee ID into existence with a token proof of work, we do not view Keyhotee IDs as something you purchase with a crypto-currency.  They are available first-come-first-served to anyone who uses Keyhotee to "mine" them into existence. 

Keep in mind that Keyhotee is not a DAC. It is an application. Perhaps you can think of it as a DAC browser.  A tool for doing business with DACs and other humans in a secure fashion - whether exchanging communications or crypto-currencies.

Now, as for buying an increased rating, we want to be vewy, vewy careful with that.  Reputations are not for sale.  Reputations must be earned.  Still we felt that founding investors in the Keyhotee ecosystem should merit a little recognition that would translate into your reputation like someone who builds a new wing on a hospital or something.  So we created the Keyhotee Founder's ID as a way to recognize a community contribution, not to buy a reputation. 

What will that be worth?  Well, if you helped found the ecosystem and have an immortal position in the genesis block, you are probably not going to throw away that irreplaceable credential on some cheap scam.  So you'll protect it.  And people will know you have something to lose if you abuse it.  And once you do abuse it, it will no longer be of value to you.

Think of what that would be worth to you during the early days of this forum.  You would have had instant moderator levels of clout, just because you are using your uncounterfeitable Good Name.  Your Keyhotee ID.

Earn it.  Protect it.  Enjoy it.

Ok that actually makes a lot of sense and answers a lot of questions.

From a purely pricing standpoint then, it seems like at least the first stage of DACs from Invictus are going to be BitShares and DomainShares, so that's where the value of ProtoShares is going to come from, in addition to it's own value as an 'altcoin'.
PTS: PYRqARWMGQ1PeZvjJM6iWJxf2ouwYcueHF
BTC: 1NeRoAKp137GTDUEBaonbu5BUGPN17Xw5n
http://btcgeek.com

Offline Stan

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2904
  • You need to think BIGGER, Pinky...
    • View Profile
    • Cryptonomex
  • BitShares: Stan
Re: Connecting Keyhotee and Protoshares
« Reply #19 on: November 13, 2013, 02:03:01 am »
Let's let the market price this much before we go adding to the value proposition.   :)
Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract of any kind.   These are merely my opinions which I reserve the right to change at any time.

Offline bytemaster

Re: Connecting Keyhotee and Protoshares
« Reply #20 on: November 13, 2013, 05:24:37 am »
I am going to chime in here with some clarity for all involved. 

1) All chains Invictus launches will be derived from ProtoShares with a 1:1 mapping and 10% of the ultimate money supply of that chain.
2) ProtoDomains may Split from ProtoShares prior to the Launch of DomainShares so that it can be traded and valued separately.   
3) Keyhotee ID is not a currency, there is no way to map ProtoShares into Keyhotee ID (the name chain)
4) There will be many BitShares based chains, not one, and all of them will be 1:1 with ProtoShares
5) We reserve the right to release ProtoShares v2 that honors 100% of ProtoShares v1 with 100% of the money supply allocated. 
6) Associated Press, DAC would honor ProtoShares

Exceptions to the ProtoShares honoring would be if we decided to release a true competitor to be used as a money-only coin and not a trading platform.  In this case we may choose to honor the initial positions in ALL existing *-coin chains proportional to their market cap. 

I want to make it very clear that at no time will we 'reset the clock' for a new chain and owning ProtoShares today does get you ownership in everything we do in the future either directly or indirectly.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2013, 03:10:21 pm by bytemaster »
For the latest updates checkout my blog: http://bytemaster.bitshares.org
Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract between myself and anyone else.   These are merely my opinions and I reserve the right to change them at any time.

Offline Lighthouse

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 376
  • Making a Market in PTS since 11/06/2013
    • View Profile
    • Lighthouse Bulk Orders and Trusted Escrow (Closed)
Re: Connecting Keyhotee and Protoshares
« Reply #21 on: November 13, 2013, 08:24:24 am »
I am going to chime in here with some clarity for all involved. 

1) All chains Invictus launches will be derived from ProtoShares with a 1:1 mapping and 10% of the ultimate money supply of that chain.
2) ProtoDomains may Split from ProtoShares prior to the Launch of DomainShares so that it can be traded and valued separately.   
3) Keyhotee ID is not a currency, there is no way to map ProtoShares into Keyhotee ID (the name chain)
4) There will be many BitShares based chains, not one, and all of them will be 1:1 with ProtoShares
5) We reserve the right to release ProtoShares v2 that honors 100% of ProtoShares v1 with 100% of the money supply allocated. 
6) Associated Press, DAC would honor ProtoShares

Exceptions to the ProtoShares honoring would be if we decided to release a true competitor to be used as a money-only coin and not a trading platform.  In this case we may choose to honor the initial positions in ALL existing *-coin chains proportional to their market cap. 

I want to make it very clear that at no time will we 'reset the clock' for a new chain and owning ProtoShares today does get you ownership in everything we do in the future either directly or indirectly.

That's great to hear, I think the potential value of protoshares is Berkshire-Hathaway stock huge.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2013, 03:10:02 pm by bytemaster »
Before you say the price of PTS is too high, take a look at theThe Reason.  Protoshares are an entirely new type of Cryptocurrency, one that pays to hold.

Offline phoenix

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 275
    • View Profile
Re: Connecting Keyhotee and Protoshares
« Reply #22 on: November 14, 2013, 06:25:20 pm »
If there's going to be multiple bitshares chains that honor protoshares then I'm definitely not going to sell out, they're far to valuable. A few protoshares times several bitshares chains = a whole lot of bitshares  :)
Protoshares: Pg5EhSZEXHFjdFUzpxJbm91UtA54iUuDvt
Bitmessage: BM-NBrGi2V3BZ8REnJM7FPxUjjkQp7V5D28

Offline ruletheworld

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 162
    • View Profile
    • BTC Geek
Re: Connecting Keyhotee and Protoshares
« Reply #23 on: November 14, 2013, 11:52:07 pm »
If there's going to be multiple bitshares chains that honor protoshares then I'm definitely not going to sell out, they're far to valuable. A few protoshares times several bitshares chains = a whole lot of bitshares  :)
Exactly, although remember that they're unlikely to release several bitshares chains and if there's a competition from someone else, they're unlikely to honor protoshares unless they hold a LOT of protoshares themselves. But it's not just bitshares, there are other DACs in the future too.
PTS: PYRqARWMGQ1PeZvjJM6iWJxf2ouwYcueHF
BTC: 1NeRoAKp137GTDUEBaonbu5BUGPN17Xw5n
http://btcgeek.com

Offline bytemaster

Re: Connecting Keyhotee and Protoshares
« Reply #24 on: November 14, 2013, 11:54:17 pm »
If there's going to be multiple bitshares chains that honor protoshares then I'm definitely not going to sell out, they're far to valuable. A few protoshares times several bitshares chains = a whole lot of bitshares  :)
Exactly, although remember that they're unlikely to release several bitshares chains and if there's a competition from someone else, they're unlikely to honor protoshares unless they hold a LOT of protoshares themselves. But it's not just bitshares, there are other DACs in the future too.

Well, there is a social contract, if we don't honor it someone can fork BItShares and honor it and then get the entire PTS community leaving our attempt to breach that contract in the dust.   
For the latest updates checkout my blog: http://bytemaster.bitshares.org
Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract between myself and anyone else.   These are merely my opinions and I reserve the right to change them at any time.

Offline Lighthouse

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 376
  • Making a Market in PTS since 11/06/2013
    • View Profile
    • Lighthouse Bulk Orders and Trusted Escrow (Closed)
Re: Connecting Keyhotee and Protoshares
« Reply #25 on: November 14, 2013, 11:55:30 pm »
If there's going to be multiple bitshares chains that honor protoshares then I'm definitely not going to sell out, they're far to valuable. A few protoshares times several bitshares chains = a whole lot of bitshares  :)
Exactly, although remember that they're unlikely to release several bitshares chains and if there's a competition from someone else, they're unlikely to honor protoshares unless they hold a LOT of protoshares themselves. But it's not just bitshares, there are other DACs in the future too.

Bitshares will have a BUNCH of new chains forking from it, GoldShares, USDShares, etc. all will be forked from Bitshares, so even just focusing on Bitshare derivatives there is an enormous future payoff.
Before you say the price of PTS is too high, take a look at theThe Reason.  Protoshares are an entirely new type of Cryptocurrency, one that pays to hold.

Offline ruletheworld

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 162
    • View Profile
    • BTC Geek
Re: Connecting Keyhotee and Protoshares
« Reply #26 on: November 14, 2013, 11:57:41 pm »
If there's going to be multiple bitshares chains that honor protoshares then I'm definitely not going to sell out, they're far to valuable. A few protoshares times several bitshares chains = a whole lot of bitshares  :)
Exactly, although remember that they're unlikely to release several bitshares chains and if there's a competition from someone else, they're unlikely to honor protoshares unless they hold a LOT of protoshares themselves. But it's not just bitshares, there are other DACs in the future too.

Well, there is a social contract, if we don't honor it someone can fork BItShares and honor it and then get the entire PTS community leaving our attempt to breach that contract in the dust.
Right, but the social contract is for BitShares. Why would you create a separate clone of BitShares as a competing blockchain? If someone does create a competing version of BitShares, they are unlikely to be Invictus and they're unlikely to use ProtoShares, perhaps they'll create their own version of ProtoShares.
I am just saying it's unlikely for "multiple bitshares chains that honor protoshares"
PTS: PYRqARWMGQ1PeZvjJM6iWJxf2ouwYcueHF
BTC: 1NeRoAKp137GTDUEBaonbu5BUGPN17Xw5n
http://btcgeek.com

Offline Stan

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2904
  • You need to think BIGGER, Pinky...
    • View Profile
    • Cryptonomex
  • BitShares: Stan
Re: Connecting Keyhotee and Protoshares
« Reply #27 on: November 15, 2013, 12:05:48 am »
If there's going to be multiple bitshares chains that honor protoshares then I'm definitely not going to sell out, they're far to valuable. A few protoshares times several bitshares chains = a whole lot of bitshares  :)
Exactly, although remember that they're unlikely to release several bitshares chains and if there's a competition from someone else, they're unlikely to honor protoshares unless they hold a LOT of protoshares themselves. But it's not just bitshares, there are other DACs in the future too.

Never say "unlikely" with Invictus.   :)

Bytemaster has already publicly committed to honor ProtoShares in the social contract for EVERYTHING we release.
Bytemaster has also indicated that there will be multiple BitShares chains released as fast as the market can absorb them.  Once that freight train is rolling, I'd be very surprised to see any DAC developer opt to go it alone. 

If they did, some other indignant enterprising entrepreneur would simply clone their DAC and honor the social contract.

Then the two DACs would compete in the free market.  I wonder which one the Informed Community would adopt?

Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract of any kind.   These are merely my opinions which I reserve the right to change at any time.

Offline Stan

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2904
  • You need to think BIGGER, Pinky...
    • View Profile
    • Cryptonomex
  • BitShares: Stan
Re: Connecting Keyhotee and Protoshares
« Reply #28 on: November 15, 2013, 12:16:48 am »
If there's going to be multiple bitshares chains that honor protoshares then I'm definitely not going to sell out, they're far to valuable. A few protoshares times several bitshares chains = a whole lot of bitshares  :)
Exactly, although remember that they're unlikely to release several bitshares chains and if there's a competition from someone else, they're unlikely to honor protoshares unless they hold a LOT of protoshares themselves. But it's not just bitshares, there are other DACs in the future too.

Well, there is a social contract, if we don't honor it someone can fork BItShares and honor it and then get the entire PTS community leaving our attempt to breach that contract in the dust.
Right, but the social contract is for BitShares. Why would you create a separate clone of BitShares as a competing blockchain? If someone does create a competing version of BitShares, they are unlikely to be Invictus and they're unlikely to use ProtoShares, perhaps they'll create their own version of ProtoShares.
I am just saying it's unlikely for "multiple bitshares chains that honor protoshares"

There a whole universe of potential exhanges just like those from Wall Street, Chicago, Hong Kong, London...  Plenty of room for lots of folks to set up their own exchange DACs following the BitShares model or something completely new. 

This will be a Cambrian Explosion of new DAC life forms.  Why handicap your DAC by not honoring the stakeholders who got it all rolling and are already trained up on how to appreciate what your new DAC offers? 

Your call.   :)


Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract of any kind.   These are merely my opinions which I reserve the right to change at any time.

Offline Bitstrader

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 63
    • View Profile
Re: Connecting Keyhotee and Protoshares
« Reply #29 on: November 15, 2013, 02:28:04 am »
A competitor would be great, not right now maybe, but to see how someone else might build something of this magnitude would be interesting to look at, every good product has a competitor  :)

Offline phoenix

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 275
    • View Profile
Re: Connecting Keyhotee and Protoshares
« Reply #30 on: November 15, 2013, 02:34:49 am »
It would be especially interesting if a company released a bitshares based blockchain that they backed with their own stock. This could be done, although they might have a TON of issues with regulators...
Protoshares: Pg5EhSZEXHFjdFUzpxJbm91UtA54iUuDvt
Bitmessage: BM-NBrGi2V3BZ8REnJM7FPxUjjkQp7V5D28

Offline Bitstrader

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 63
    • View Profile
Re: Connecting Keyhotee and Protoshares
« Reply #31 on: November 15, 2013, 02:44:32 am »
I like that idea, but then the bet is the company has to succeed for the plan to work.

Offline Stan

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2904
  • You need to think BIGGER, Pinky...
    • View Profile
    • Cryptonomex
  • BitShares: Stan
Re: Connecting Keyhotee and Protoshares
« Reply #32 on: November 15, 2013, 02:46:42 am »
A competitor would be great, not right now maybe, but to see how someone else might build something of this magnitude would be interesting to look at, every good product has a competitor  :)

Competitors are essential.  That's why we published the DACs That Spawn DACs article at LetsTalkBitcoin.com.  It contains a cookbook describing step by step the business theory behind what we are doing and how we hope to get along with wily regulators. 

Of course, if a competitor decides to honor the ProtoShares Social Contract, they can skip straight to Enterprise 3 and concentrate on Developing their own World's Greatest DAC.
Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract of any kind.   These are merely my opinions which I reserve the right to change at any time.

Offline ruletheworld

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 162
    • View Profile
    • BTC Geek
Re: Connecting Keyhotee and Protoshares
« Reply #33 on: November 15, 2013, 02:58:50 am »
A competitor would be great, not right now maybe, but to see how someone else might build something of this magnitude would be interesting to look at, every good product has a competitor  :)

Competitors are essential.  That's why we published the DACs That Spawn DACs article at LetsTalkBitcoin.com.  It contains a cookbook describing step by step the business theory behind what we are doing and how we hope to get along with wily regulators. 

Of course, if a competitor decides to honor the ProtoShares Social Contract, they can skip straight to Enterprise 3 and concentrate on Developing their own World's Greatest DAC.

I read that, it was a very good article. Thought provoking. Glad you shared it with everyone!
PTS: PYRqARWMGQ1PeZvjJM6iWJxf2ouwYcueHF
BTC: 1NeRoAKp137GTDUEBaonbu5BUGPN17Xw5n
http://btcgeek.com

Offline VEscudero

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 9
  • Trustworthy Bitcoin Trader (https://bit.ly/BTrade)
    • View Profile
    • VEscudero's Blog
Re: Connecting Keyhotee and Protoshares
« Reply #34 on: November 17, 2013, 03:34:21 pm »

Competitors are essential.  That's why we published the DACs That Spawn DACs article at LetsTalkBitcoin.com.  It contains a cookbook describing step by step the business theory behind what we are doing and how we hope to get along with wily regulators. 

Of course, if a competitor decides to honor the ProtoShares Social Contract, they can skip straight to Enterprise 3 and concentrate on Developing their own World's Greatest DAC.

This is one of the things I admire. You are not afraid of giving wings to competitition because you really think that building open environments always pay off in the long term.

Bravo, keep up the good work!!
★ VEscudero's service for Buying and Selling bitcoins ★
Bitcoins: 1VESCU4YLvNYhmTsJRgFKKn3bLFeeWtJm | PTS: PsxSZXwYw5vh2Nzi6aQvpEumdk8KoZrorz | VEscudero's Blog

Offline HackFisher

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 883
    • View Profile
Re: Connecting Keyhotee and Protoshares
« Reply #35 on: November 24, 2013, 02:05:56 am »
When the price/value of Protoshare goes up, PTS blockchain might be less attractive to non-invictus DAC, because they need investment by early buy "IPO coins". If they buys Protoshares at high Price, it is may cost too much and less profitable to the real supporter of the idea of DAC.

This situation also apply to invictus, this could explain why Invictus will choose children and grandson as the proto chain of DAC.

@Stan, al least, Protoshare will be the ancestor of all the DACs release by Invictus, right?

I think thats a reasonable position but I don't think that's been clearly articulated in your material.  I had understood it as Protocoin was the point from which all new chains would be forked, but you're saying that Protoshares -> Bitshares but then instead of Protoshares -> New Chain it will be Bitshares ->  New Chain, which means that once Bitshares are issued to protoshares holders the value of protoshares is mostly gone.

How would a non-invictus DAC benefit from protoshares?  Unless they're mining now, they won't have any substantial number so what advantage is there issuing to holders of protoshares besides giving them their new coin for free instantly?  I don't understand the value to a company not already owning lots of Protoshares
Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract between myself and anyone else.   These are merely my opinions and I reserve the right to change them at any time.

Offline bytemaster

Re: Connecting Keyhotee and Protoshares
« Reply #36 on: November 24, 2013, 02:31:31 am »
When the price/value of Protoshare goes up, PTS blockchain might be less attractive to non-invictus DAC, because they need investment by early buy "IPO coins". If they buys Protoshares at high Price, it is may cost too much and less profitable to the real supporter of the idea of DAC.

This situation also apply to invictus, this could explain why Invictus will choose children and grandson as the proto chain of DAC.

@Stan, al least, Protoshare will be the ancestor of all the DACs release by Invictus, right?

I think thats a reasonable position but I don't think that's been clearly articulated in your material.  I had understood it as Protocoin was the point from which all new chains would be forked, but you're saying that Protoshares -> Bitshares but then instead of Protoshares -> New Chain it will be Bitshares ->  New Chain, which means that once Bitshares are issued to protoshares holders the value of protoshares is mostly gone.

How would a non-invictus DAC benefit from protoshares?  Unless they're mining now, they won't have any substantial number so what advantage is there issuing to holders of protoshares besides giving them their new coin for free instantly?  I don't understand the value to a company not already owning lots of Protoshares

We have not yet revealed our plans that will make this argument moot.
For the latest updates checkout my blog: http://bytemaster.bitshares.org
Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract between myself and anyone else.   These are merely my opinions and I reserve the right to change them at any time.

Offline earthbound

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 120
    • View Profile
    • earthbound.io
Re: Connecting Keyhotee and Protoshares
« Reply #37 on: January 02, 2014, 06:32:36 am »
How would a non-invictus DAC benefit from protoshares?  Unless they're mining now, they won't have any substantial number so what advantage is there issuing to holders of protoshares besides giving them their new coin for free instantly?  I don't understand the value to a company not already owning lots of Protoshares

Scenario; and I am not a trade expert, so the amounts and terms I give might not be necessarily realistic:

Investor Sam expects the price of BitBTC to go up, so he makes a long bet. He gives a broker, Alice, 10 BitShares in exchange for 10 BitBTC.

If the value of BitBTC goes up (meaning, for example, that Sam can get more of something else than before, by exchanging his BitBTC for that something), Sam sells the BitBTC to someone else (for a profit), and Sam also returns the borrowed BitBTC to Alice (possibly also with a small BitBTC "commission" payment), and Sam keeps the difference, which is his profit from the trade.

However, if the value of BitBTC drops enough that the borrowed BTC is in danger of being lost (because it can no longer be exchanged for as much), Sam must give Alice the 10 BitShares (which were collateral for the trade), and Sam must also sell the BitBTC which he borrowed, at a loss! Sam has suffered a "margin call."

A detail which very much piqued my interest, which I read somewhere, is that with BitShares and BitBTC, margin call fees will go to miners. In other words, in the scenario I've described, the whole trade contract is encoded in a blockchain (probably the BitBTC blockchain), and verified by a miner (the same way that miners verify Bitcoin transactions).

Apparently, when a miner verifies a BitShares/BitBTC trade, if that trade includes a margin call, the miner gets the money from that margin call.

Do you know what kind of money Forex brokers make from trades gone wrong (margin calls)? Scads of it. Why? Because markets can be very difficult to predict. A lot of the time it simply looks like a coin toss. And here, when traders guess wrong, the miners will win where the traders lose.

Mining transactions of BitShare/BitAsset exchanges will probably be extremely lucrative.

Or, on the other hand, what about when traders win? What about the commissions from winning trades? What if DAC operators get a portion of commissions--so that Sam, Alice, and the operators of the DAC all get profit from the trade?

I have no idea whether that kind of setup is feasible in real-life exchange trading (maybe someone would warn me that this would be very wrong in real life). But we aren't talking about real-life exchange trading.

BitShare/BitAsset exchanges will transform ordinary people (in this example, Alice) into brokers, which can easily be done because the whole contract is encoded in the blockchain and enforced by the global peer-to-peer network (effectively, the DAC). Well, if an ordinary person-turned broker (via a DAC) is going to pay margin call fees to other folks connected to the DAC (the miners), why wouldn't they also pay commission fees to still other folks connected to the DAC (the DAC operators)?

For that matter, what if Alice keeps part of the margin call fee (by splitting it with the miner--the miner keeps some, and Alice keeps some)?

Have I guessed correctly, bytemaster? :)
I think I'm not alone when I say I'd like to see more and more planets fall under the ruthless dominion of our solar system. -Jack Handey

Offline toast

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4002
    • View Profile
  • BitShares: nikolai
Re: Connecting Keyhotee and Protoshares
« Reply #38 on: January 02, 2014, 06:52:27 am »
Bitshares is not longer using proof-of-work mining. Margin call fees turn into dividends now, no miner for Alice to collude with.

Quote
What if DAC operators get a portion of commissions--so that Sam, Alice, and the operators of the DAC all get profit from the trade?

this is the reality now
Do not use this post as information for making any important decisions. The only agreements I ever make are informal and non-binding. Take the same precautions as when dealing with a compromised account, scammer, sockpuppet, etc.

Offline bytemaster

Re: Connecting Keyhotee and Protoshares
« Reply #39 on: January 02, 2014, 07:06:26 am »
Bitshares is not longer using proof-of-work mining. Margin call fees turn into dividends now, no miner for Alice to collude with.

Quote
What if DAC operators get a portion of commissions--so that Sam, Alice, and the operators of the DAC all get profit from the trade?

this is the reality now

Margin calls are deterministic and automatic.  With the ripple consensus algorithm being used no individual node can pick the transactions that get included.  Much more secure as a result.
For the latest updates checkout my blog: http://bytemaster.bitshares.org
Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract between myself and anyone else.   These are merely my opinions and I reserve the right to change them at any time.

Offline yellowecho

Re: Connecting Keyhotee and Protoshares
« Reply #40 on: January 14, 2014, 10:42:48 pm »
N00b here.

I understand that Keyhotee is an application and not a currency but how will I get a KeyhoteeID?  Will the software allow me to mine the ID?  Or will I simply receive Nameshares when the DAC is released which can be used as an ID?

696c6f766562726f776e696573

Offline dannotestein

  • Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 736
    • View Profile
    • BlockTrades International
  • BitShares: btsnow
Re: Connecting Keyhotee and Protoshares
« Reply #41 on: January 17, 2014, 03:47:42 am »
I understand that Keyhotee is an application and not a currency but how will I get a KeyhoteeID?  Will the software allow me to mine the ID?  Or will I simply receive Nameshares when the DAC is released which can be used as an ID?
KeyhoteeIDs will be mined with the exception of Keyhotee Founder IDs that were provided as rewards to early donators to Keyhotee development.
http://blocktrades.us Fast/Safe/High-Liquidity Crypto Coin Converter