Author Topic: Connecting Keyhotee and Protoshares  (Read 10432 times)

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Offline dannotestein

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I understand that Keyhotee is an application and not a currency but how will I get a KeyhoteeID?  Will the software allow me to mine the ID?  Or will I simply receive Nameshares when the DAC is released which can be used as an ID?
KeyhoteeIDs will be mined with the exception of Keyhotee Founder IDs that were provided as rewards to early donators to Keyhotee development.
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Offline yellowecho

N00b here.

I understand that Keyhotee is an application and not a currency but how will I get a KeyhoteeID?  Will the software allow me to mine the ID?  Or will I simply receive Nameshares when the DAC is released which can be used as an ID?

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Offline bytemaster

Bitshares is not longer using proof-of-work mining. Margin call fees turn into dividends now, no miner for Alice to collude with.

Quote
What if DAC operators get a portion of commissions--so that Sam, Alice, and the operators of the DAC all get profit from the trade?

this is the reality now

Margin calls are deterministic and automatic.  With the ripple consensus algorithm being used no individual node can pick the transactions that get included.  Much more secure as a result.
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Offline toast

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Bitshares is not longer using proof-of-work mining. Margin call fees turn into dividends now, no miner for Alice to collude with.

Quote
What if DAC operators get a portion of commissions--so that Sam, Alice, and the operators of the DAC all get profit from the trade?

this is the reality now
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Offline earthbound

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How would a non-invictus DAC benefit from protoshares?  Unless they're mining now, they won't have any substantial number so what advantage is there issuing to holders of protoshares besides giving them their new coin for free instantly?  I don't understand the value to a company not already owning lots of Protoshares

Scenario; and I am not a trade expert, so the amounts and terms I give might not be necessarily realistic:

Investor Sam expects the price of BitBTC to go up, so he makes a long bet. He gives a broker, Alice, 10 BitShares in exchange for 10 BitBTC.

If the value of BitBTC goes up (meaning, for example, that Sam can get more of something else than before, by exchanging his BitBTC for that something), Sam sells the BitBTC to someone else (for a profit), and Sam also returns the borrowed BitBTC to Alice (possibly also with a small BitBTC "commission" payment), and Sam keeps the difference, which is his profit from the trade.

However, if the value of BitBTC drops enough that the borrowed BTC is in danger of being lost (because it can no longer be exchanged for as much), Sam must give Alice the 10 BitShares (which were collateral for the trade), and Sam must also sell the BitBTC which he borrowed, at a loss! Sam has suffered a "margin call."

A detail which very much piqued my interest, which I read somewhere, is that with BitShares and BitBTC, margin call fees will go to miners. In other words, in the scenario I've described, the whole trade contract is encoded in a blockchain (probably the BitBTC blockchain), and verified by a miner (the same way that miners verify Bitcoin transactions).

Apparently, when a miner verifies a BitShares/BitBTC trade, if that trade includes a margin call, the miner gets the money from that margin call.

Do you know what kind of money Forex brokers make from trades gone wrong (margin calls)? Scads of it. Why? Because markets can be very difficult to predict. A lot of the time it simply looks like a coin toss. And here, when traders guess wrong, the miners will win where the traders lose.

Mining transactions of BitShare/BitAsset exchanges will probably be extremely lucrative.

Or, on the other hand, what about when traders win? What about the commissions from winning trades? What if DAC operators get a portion of commissions--so that Sam, Alice, and the operators of the DAC all get profit from the trade?

I have no idea whether that kind of setup is feasible in real-life exchange trading (maybe someone would warn me that this would be very wrong in real life). But we aren't talking about real-life exchange trading.

BitShare/BitAsset exchanges will transform ordinary people (in this example, Alice) into brokers, which can easily be done because the whole contract is encoded in the blockchain and enforced by the global peer-to-peer network (effectively, the DAC). Well, if an ordinary person-turned broker (via a DAC) is going to pay margin call fees to other folks connected to the DAC (the miners), why wouldn't they also pay commission fees to still other folks connected to the DAC (the DAC operators)?

For that matter, what if Alice keeps part of the margin call fee (by splitting it with the miner--the miner keeps some, and Alice keeps some)?

Have I guessed correctly, bytemaster? :)
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Offline bytemaster

When the price/value of Protoshare goes up, PTS blockchain might be less attractive to non-invictus DAC, because they need investment by early buy "IPO coins". If they buys Protoshares at high Price, it is may cost too much and less profitable to the real supporter of the idea of DAC.

This situation also apply to invictus, this could explain why Invictus will choose children and grandson as the proto chain of DAC.

@Stan, al least, Protoshare will be the ancestor of all the DACs release by Invictus, right?

I think thats a reasonable position but I don't think that's been clearly articulated in your material.  I had understood it as Protocoin was the point from which all new chains would be forked, but you're saying that Protoshares -> Bitshares but then instead of Protoshares -> New Chain it will be Bitshares ->  New Chain, which means that once Bitshares are issued to protoshares holders the value of protoshares is mostly gone.

How would a non-invictus DAC benefit from protoshares?  Unless they're mining now, they won't have any substantial number so what advantage is there issuing to holders of protoshares besides giving them their new coin for free instantly?  I don't understand the value to a company not already owning lots of Protoshares

We have not yet revealed our plans that will make this argument moot.
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Offline HackFisher

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When the price/value of Protoshare goes up, PTS blockchain might be less attractive to non-invictus DAC, because they need investment by early buy "IPO coins". If they buys Protoshares at high Price, it is may cost too much and less profitable to the real supporter of the idea of DAC.

This situation also apply to invictus, this could explain why Invictus will choose children and grandson as the proto chain of DAC.

@Stan, al least, Protoshare will be the ancestor of all the DACs release by Invictus, right?

I think thats a reasonable position but I don't think that's been clearly articulated in your material.  I had understood it as Protocoin was the point from which all new chains would be forked, but you're saying that Protoshares -> Bitshares but then instead of Protoshares -> New Chain it will be Bitshares ->  New Chain, which means that once Bitshares are issued to protoshares holders the value of protoshares is mostly gone.

How would a non-invictus DAC benefit from protoshares?  Unless they're mining now, they won't have any substantial number so what advantage is there issuing to holders of protoshares besides giving them their new coin for free instantly?  I don't understand the value to a company not already owning lots of Protoshares
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Offline VEscudero

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Competitors are essential.  That's why we published the DACs That Spawn DACs article at LetsTalkBitcoin.com.  It contains a cookbook describing step by step the business theory behind what we are doing and how we hope to get along with wily regulators. 

Of course, if a competitor decides to honor the ProtoShares Social Contract, they can skip straight to Enterprise 3 and concentrate on Developing their own World's Greatest DAC.

This is one of the things I admire. You are not afraid of giving wings to competitition because you really think that building open environments always pay off in the long term.

Bravo, keep up the good work!!
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Offline ruletheworld

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A competitor would be great, not right now maybe, but to see how someone else might build something of this magnitude would be interesting to look at, every good product has a competitor  :)

Competitors are essential.  That's why we published the DACs That Spawn DACs article at LetsTalkBitcoin.com.  It contains a cookbook describing step by step the business theory behind what we are doing and how we hope to get along with wily regulators. 

Of course, if a competitor decides to honor the ProtoShares Social Contract, they can skip straight to Enterprise 3 and concentrate on Developing their own World's Greatest DAC.

I read that, it was a very good article. Thought provoking. Glad you shared it with everyone!
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Offline Stan

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A competitor would be great, not right now maybe, but to see how someone else might build something of this magnitude would be interesting to look at, every good product has a competitor  :)

Competitors are essential.  That's why we published the DACs That Spawn DACs article at LetsTalkBitcoin.com.  It contains a cookbook describing step by step the business theory behind what we are doing and how we hope to get along with wily regulators. 

Of course, if a competitor decides to honor the ProtoShares Social Contract, they can skip straight to Enterprise 3 and concentrate on Developing their own World's Greatest DAC.
Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract of any kind.   These are merely my opinions which I reserve the right to change at any time.

Offline Bitstrader

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I like that idea, but then the bet is the company has to succeed for the plan to work.

Offline phoenix

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It would be especially interesting if a company released a bitshares based blockchain that they backed with their own stock. This could be done, although they might have a TON of issues with regulators...
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Offline Bitstrader

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A competitor would be great, not right now maybe, but to see how someone else might build something of this magnitude would be interesting to look at, every good product has a competitor  :)

Offline Stan

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If there's going to be multiple bitshares chains that honor protoshares then I'm definitely not going to sell out, they're far to valuable. A few protoshares times several bitshares chains = a whole lot of bitshares  :)
Exactly, although remember that they're unlikely to release several bitshares chains and if there's a competition from someone else, they're unlikely to honor protoshares unless they hold a LOT of protoshares themselves. But it's not just bitshares, there are other DACs in the future too.

Well, there is a social contract, if we don't honor it someone can fork BItShares and honor it and then get the entire PTS community leaving our attempt to breach that contract in the dust.
Right, but the social contract is for BitShares. Why would you create a separate clone of BitShares as a competing blockchain? If someone does create a competing version of BitShares, they are unlikely to be Invictus and they're unlikely to use ProtoShares, perhaps they'll create their own version of ProtoShares.
I am just saying it's unlikely for "multiple bitshares chains that honor protoshares"

There a whole universe of potential exhanges just like those from Wall Street, Chicago, Hong Kong, London...  Plenty of room for lots of folks to set up their own exchange DACs following the BitShares model or something completely new. 

This will be a Cambrian Explosion of new DAC life forms.  Why handicap your DAC by not honoring the stakeholders who got it all rolling and are already trained up on how to appreciate what your new DAC offers? 

Your call.   :)


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Offline Stan

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If there's going to be multiple bitshares chains that honor protoshares then I'm definitely not going to sell out, they're far to valuable. A few protoshares times several bitshares chains = a whole lot of bitshares  :)
Exactly, although remember that they're unlikely to release several bitshares chains and if there's a competition from someone else, they're unlikely to honor protoshares unless they hold a LOT of protoshares themselves. But it's not just bitshares, there are other DACs in the future too.

Never say "unlikely" with Invictus.   :)

Bytemaster has already publicly committed to honor ProtoShares in the social contract for EVERYTHING we release.
Bytemaster has also indicated that there will be multiple BitShares chains released as fast as the market can absorb them.  Once that freight train is rolling, I'd be very surprised to see any DAC developer opt to go it alone. 

If they did, some other indignant enterprising entrepreneur would simply clone their DAC and honor the social contract.

Then the two DACs would compete in the free market.  I wonder which one the Informed Community would adopt?

Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract of any kind.   These are merely my opinions which I reserve the right to change at any time.