Author Topic: Blackshares, can it be done? Is it in our mutual benefit? Brainstorm here  (Read 14533 times)

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Offline luckybit

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Here are some lessons we can take from the discussion so far.

1. Proof of Stake coins are shares. (Blackcoins are actually Blackshares in disguise and the holders don't know the true value of their Blackcoins yet). Once it is known that Proof of Stake alliances exist, no one is going to want to dump their shares.

2. Proof of Work coins are a different species. They are something which can be seen as shares but not every Proof of Work community wants to see their coins as shares. The Bitcoin community and core developers for example want their coin to be a currency and don't want the share metaphor for their community. We should not push it on them either because Bitcoin would be called Bitshares if it was supposed to be treated that way.

3. The fact that we can do crypto-mergers is ground breaking. We can be the first or among the first communities to ever do a crypto-merger between two DACs. I propose the Blackcoin community because Blackcoin is the coin with the third highest volume, it's true Proof of Stake not a hybrid, and it has a passionate community willing to do the marketing it takes to make it a success.

4. The crypto-merger or DAC merger is as simple as creating a new Bitshares chain and splitting it 50/50 between our community and the community we want to merge with. It would cause us to lose absolutely nothing in the process because we'd get half of the chain, but we'd also get the support of a new community.

It's anyone's guess what sort of commodity pairs could be in the Blackshares chain, but with their marketing ability whatever is in there would probably be pumped causing the price to skyrocket. Both communities would then win.

I don't think the Doge community is as open to Dogeshares as they position themselves to be a currency and have adopted inflation into their system. But if Blackshares were successful enough then other DACs besides Bitshares could merge with Dogecoin.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2014, 04:49:30 am by luckybit »
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Offline luckybit

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Question.  What is keeping us from "forking" ourselves and going down two separate paths at the same time?  We might not even need a vote for something like this because the holders get a stake in BOTH paths...

We have that power as a community do we not?  This will create competition in the space and each side will compete to see which is best, only this way we get to ACTUALLY SEE which one will work best. 

This conversation, imho, is based on a fallacy that we need to vote for really good ideas like these to avoid clones popping up and competing that do not honor the original investors...but at the same time, we can effectively clone the tech right now and honor old stakeholders along with whatever other communities would like an air drop.  Then let them compete along side the original community to bring value to the original stakeholders.

This would, in the end, make POS most likely gravitate toward implementation of DPOS as they fight amongst eachother to create the best version...and would effectively expand the user base by also giving a stake in all others.  It would also crowdsource much of the alpha and beta-testing as Bytemaster could follow the trends and change the original chain to fix issues other chains find first.  It ALSO has the side effect of increasing the attack surface for this tech on the whole.

Create bitShares-BC, bitShares-Doge and whatever the hell coin has a community we believe deserves a chance in the fight instead of letting those communities start deciding to adopt the model without honoring bitShares-PTS and AGS holders.  Or better yet, give altcoins a template to become part of the competition without our say (its going to happen whether we like it or not, anyway).

Our community needs others to compete directly with it or else we will simply think we can sit back and let Invictus do all the leg work.  One of the KEY points to their business model DEPENDS on strong community, so let other communities fight to contribute to the value of this tech.  I can't think of a way that this would cause problems...but I am interested in hearing opinions.  But as an Investor I would love to have my stake in all these projects given to me in addition to the original because it highly increases the chances of success for any one of them.  Of course, there is nothing saying any of these coins will use the template to honor original stakeholders, but this has been a beautiful experiment from the beginning...we all knew the risks and the risks don't go away by just ignoring future threats. 

This is a quick write-up as I am pretty busy today, so forgive me if some of this is not quite crystal clear, but let us think together, and think outside the box!
+5% +5% +5%
Now you are seeing the strategy I'm promoting. Blackshares can easily be a Bitshares chain with different commodities in it and which honors AGS and PTS stakeholders with 50% and Blackcoin holders the other 50%.

In fact that is exactly how a merger of this sort could work and what I was trying to get at so thanks for using far better words than I could have.

We wouldn't lose anything. We would have 50% in an alt Bitshares chain and the Blackcoin community would have 50%. This would make it so the Blackcoin community would have no reason to use a fork (fork resistance achieved). It would also give us a chain with new types of commodities which aren't in the default chain.

Win/win for both communities and an economic alliance would be sealed. But I think that is perhaps a major step which the Bitshares community isn't prepared to take which is why I am saying we should brainstorm first. There are some smaller steps we could take first to send the necessary market signal to the Blackcoin community to hold on to their "shares".

I think Dogeshares and the other Proof of Work coins should be avoided for now as we should focus on true Proof of Stake currencies with a track record of success.

We are a Proof of Stake community and any coin which has inflation is not supporting our values. Additionally their marketing tactics wont really help us any because they are a different species. In time we will be able to use this merger process with Proof of Work coins as well though and I suggest we consider doing it only when it's for a strategic gain.

Dogeshares makes a lot of sense in the future but not based on the Bitshares chain unless the Dogeshares community votes for it.

The one thing that the Bitshares community has is innovative code, crypto-equity, and a priceless community of minds. Other communities are better at marketing than us and we should not be afraid to admit that the Blackcoin and Dogecoin community are better at it.

But we have something they all want and that is state of the art next generation technology with the combined ability to understand how to use it. Anyone can make a fork but they will not be able to actually upgrade the code in any useful way. Anyone can have the same code but not be able to think about DACs in the right metaphor to make use of it.

I'm advocating that we turn BlackCOINS into BlackSHARES with the tacit support of the Blackcoin and Bitshares community. If necessary it could be done without a vote and without support but I believe we should be fair and at least get a general consensus.

At this point in time the general consensus has sided in favor of the idea so it's much more likely to happen. Now we need to get the Blackcoin developers and community manager to agree to sit down with Dan and work out a plan to implement the fork. The timing of something that ambitious would have to be right so the hybrid multipool idea would be where to start the alliance so that the Blackcoin community can be introduced to the Bitshares community without a sudden shock. I also think the Bitshares initial chain needs some time for testing so the multipool could be in testing at the same time while the Blackshares fork could be prepared for launch.

« Last Edit: April 21, 2014, 04:45:34 am by luckybit »
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Offline Empirical1

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This conversation, imho, is based on a fallacy that we need to vote for really good ideas like these to avoid clones...but at the same time, we can effectively clone the tech right now and honor old stakeholders along with whatever other communities would like an air drop. 

This would, in the end, make POS most likely gravitate toward implementation of DPOS as they fight amongst eachother to create the best version...and would effectively expand the user base by also giving a stake in all others. 

Create bitShares-BC, bitShares-Doge and whatever the hell coin has a community we believe deserves a chance in the fight instead of letting those communities start deciding to adopt the model without honoring bitShares-PTS and AGS holders. 


 +5%

I'm just against airdropping donated AGS directly because because AGS would no longer be 'proven donors'

But I think any new DAC that chooses to honour (airdrop) AGS/PTS & 'Whoever else' is good. Nothing wrong with a DAC that honours 50% BC holders and 50% Bitshares for example.

(The only caveat I can think of is that in the beginning while Bitshares is building a brand we should be a little selective where possible. Maybe get BTS X on the market. For example if I got shares in some really terrible partnerships, I'd probably sell and if everyone did the same it may reflect badly on the premise of AGS & PTS being supportive holders? )

Well we could let these altcoins modify the template as they see fit, and they could use the Mumble server to reach out to ByteMaster two times a week to ask for advice on issues they encounter...this is another way to give back to them and help them along while also fostering the first-mover advantage for the PTS community.

That's a good idea. I would think that part of the value of Bitshares, for the first few years anyway, is some access & input from the talent at Invictus. So any ideas that let people do that without being too demanding on people like BM's valuable time are good IMO.

I'd even like to see someone employed who is almost like a help desk for any technical issues, and who answer questions & clears up technical misunderstandings (which I often have)  on various bitcoin/reddit/our forums.

Offline fuzzy


This conversation, imho, is based on a fallacy that we need to vote for really good ideas like these to avoid clones...but at the same time, we can effectively clone the tech right now and honor old stakeholders along with whatever other communities would like an air drop. 

This would, in the end, make POS most likely gravitate toward implementation of DPOS as they fight amongst eachother to create the best version...and would effectively expand the user base by also giving a stake in all others. 

Create bitShares-BC, bitShares-Doge and whatever the hell coin has a community we believe deserves a chance in the fight instead of letting those communities start deciding to adopt the model without honoring bitShares-PTS and AGS holders. 


 +5%

I'm just against airdropping donated AGS directly because because AGS would no longer be 'proven donors'

But I think any new DAC that chooses to honour (airdrop) AGS/PTS & 'Whoever else' is good. Nothing wrong with a DAC that honours 50% BC holders and 50% Bitshares for example.

(The only caveat I can think of is that in the beginning while Bitshares is building a brand we should be a little selective where possible. Maybe get BTS X on the market. For example if I got shares in some really terrible partnerships, I'd probably sell and if everyone did the same it may reflect badly on the premise of AGS & PTS being supportive holders? )

Well we could let these altcoins modify the template as they see fit, and they could use the Mumble server to reach out to ByteMaster two times a week to ask for advice on issues they encounter...this is another way to give back to them and help them along while also fostering the first-mover advantage for the PTS community. 

And really, in my opinion the altcoins that compete for the original community's attention and lose are probably going to get angry, but we are not trying to make everyone happy at the cost of destroying a technology that can uplift the entirety of humanity...right?

The key is giving anyone the ability to enter and compete if they think they can or have the drive to.  And they should all be competing for our support.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2014, 02:22:19 am by fuznuts »
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Offline Empirical1

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This conversation, imho, is based on a fallacy that we need to vote for really good ideas like these to avoid clones...but at the same time, we can effectively clone the tech right now and honor old stakeholders along with whatever other communities would like an air drop. 

This would, in the end, make POS most likely gravitate toward implementation of DPOS as they fight amongst eachother to create the best version...and would effectively expand the user base by also giving a stake in all others. 

Create bitShares-BC, bitShares-Doge and whatever the hell coin has a community we believe deserves a chance in the fight instead of letting those communities start deciding to adopt the model without honoring bitShares-PTS and AGS holders. 


 +5%

I'm just against airdropping donated AGS directly because because AGS would no longer be 'proven donors'

But I think any new DAC that chooses to honour (airdrop) AGS/PTS & 'Whoever else' is good. Nothing wrong with a DAC that honours 50% BC holders and 50% Bitshares for example.

(The only caveat I can think of is that in the beginning while Bitshares is building a brand we should be a little selective where possible. Maybe get BTS X on the market. For example if I got shares in some really terrible partnerships, I'd probably sell and if everyone did the same it may reflect badly on the premise of AGS & PTS being supportive holders? )

Offline fuzzy

Good thoughts there, fuz.

Let us hope man.  I just want to make value for the fucking WORLD.  I imagine how RICH I will be when guy who got a piece of my stake goes out and cures an illness I might someday get and offer it for free over a decentralized platform.  Or some group of techno-hippies figure out a way to make Decentralized Autonomous structures that feed me for pennies on the dollar without use of GMO Monsanto bullshit...

Humanity is far too intelligent for us to hold ourselves back because of a narrowed perception.  "Profit" here is honestly my secondary motivation.  I have seen war and famine and as shitty as it was, I wish everyone would see it--it has a way of changing what you value.  We can all come together to fight against this perceptual disease of "us against them", or we can let it overcome us from within. 
« Last Edit: April 21, 2014, 01:27:07 am by fuznuts »
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Offline fuzzy

Question.  What is keeping us from "forking" ourselves and going down two separate paths at the same time?  We might not even need a vote for something like this because the holders get a stake in BOTH paths...

We have that power as a community do we not?  This will create competition in the space and each side will compete to see which is best, only this way we get to ACTUALLY SEE which one will work best. 

This conversation, imho, is based on a fallacy that we need to vote for really good ideas like these to avoid clones popping up and competing that do not honor the original investors...but at the same time, we can effectively clone the tech right now and honor old stakeholders along with whatever other communities would like an air drop.  Then let them compete along side the original community to bring value to the original stakeholders.

This would, in the end, make POS most likely gravitate toward implementation of DPOS as they fight amongst eachother to create the best version...and would effectively expand the user base by also giving a stake in all others.  It would also crowdsource much of the alpha and beta-testing as Bytemaster could follow the trends and change the original chain to fix issues other chains find first.  It ALSO has the side effect of increasing the attack surface for this tech on the whole.

Create bitShares-BC, bitShares-Doge and whatever the hell coin has a community we believe deserves a chance in the fight instead of letting those communities start deciding to adopt the model without honoring bitShares-PTS and AGS holders.  Or better yet, give altcoins a template to become part of the competition without our say (its going to happen whether we like it or not, anyway).

Our community needs others to compete directly with it or else we will simply think we can sit back and let Invictus do all the leg work.  One of the KEY points to their business model DEPENDS on strong community, so let other communities fight to contribute to the value of this tech.  I can't think of a way that this would cause problems...but I am interested in hearing opinions.  But as an Investor I would love to have my stake in all these projects given to me in addition to the original because it highly increases the chances of success for any one of them.  Of course, there is nothing saying any of these coins will use the template to honor original stakeholders, but this has been a beautiful experiment from the beginning...we all knew the risks and the risks don't go away by just ignoring future threats. 

This is a quick write-up as I am pretty busy today, so forgive me if some of this is not quite crystal clear, but let us think together, and think outside the box!

« Last Edit: April 21, 2014, 01:19:00 am by fuznuts »
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Satoshi already invented the “uncrackable private key app.”  All Dan is doing is marketing it to the world.  Bitshares is a marketing company (community) that simply markets Satoshi’s ideas to the world.  When you are voting against marketing ideas, you are voting against yourself, and your own wallet, and your own community’s success.  You are effectively destroying your own community from within.

DO NOT GIVE AWAY DONATED BITSHARES TO ANYONE.


'All Dan is doing is marketing it to the world.'  Yeah, that's all he's doing...   

We can create lots of new DAC's or alliances, where we & partners are air-dropped shares in a new joint venture even funded with AGS! So there is very little reason to airdrop AGS & PTS directly. (Especially given that the whole premise is that AGS holders are proven savvy donors and PTS holders are proven savvy supporters.)

50% airdrops to unfocused communities have so far resulted in 99% shareholder losses from their highs. (Maza/Spain/Silicon/Aurora)
IMO once DAC's start being released the value of the focused proven supporter Bitshares community will really come to the fore. (Great vision from Stan & Dan on that one.) 

Apologies if this is rude, but as a member for 3 weeks, you've made 33 posts & 29 of them seem to have been desperate attempts to get Bitshares to Airdrop AGS directly (Literally to anyone for any reason.) Given the elaborate, lengthy, single mindedness of your posts, as a poker player, my best guess is that competitors in this space are starting to feel a little bit threatened...

DA is a charade for sure, but let me spoil the fun so we don't waste breath; DA is dan


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Offline Empirical1

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Satoshi already invented the “uncrackable private key app.”  All Dan is doing is marketing it to the world.  Bitshares is a marketing company (community) that simply markets Satoshi’s ideas to the world.  When you are voting against marketing ideas, you are voting against yourself, and your own wallet, and your own community’s success.  You are effectively destroying your own community from within. You are effectively destroying your own community from within.  Know yourself, know your community, know what your community is supposed to accomplish.  Only that is the equivalent of taking the red pill, otherwise you will never decipher the matrix. 

Or just take the blue pill and continue to give away your million dollar ideas (fact proven by Blackcoin) to the “crypto top 40” for free.  The Blackcoin community among others thanks you. 

Above all else:

DO NOT GIVE AWAY DONATED BITSHARES TO ANYONE.


'All Dan is doing is marketing it to the world.'  Yeah, that's all he's doing...   

We can create lots of new DAC's or alliances, where we & partners are air-dropped shares in a new joint venture even funded with AGS! So there is very little reason to airdrop AGS & PTS directly. (Especially given that the whole premise is that AGS holders are proven savvy donors and PTS holders are proven savvy supporters.)

50% airdrops to unfocused communities have so far resulted in 99% shareholder losses from their highs. (Maza/Spain/Silicon/Aurora)
IMO once DAC's start being released the value of the focused proven supporter Bitshares community will really come to the fore. (Great vision from Stan & Dan on that one.) 

Apologies if this is rude, but as a member for 3 weeks, you've made 33 posts & 29 of them seem to have been desperate attempts to get Bitshares to Airdrop AGS directly (Literally to anyone for any reason.) Given the elaborate, lengthy, single mindedness of your posts, as a poker player, my best guess is that competitors in this space are starting to feel a little bit threatened...

(Edit: lengthened quote)
« Last Edit: April 21, 2014, 12:46:21 am by Empirical1 »

Offline Empirical1

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I like the multi-pool to BC payout idea, their new dump defence & the Blackcard thing is interesting and I would probably agree that their marketing is above average.

I've made good money riding the pumps and dumps so far, however given that 80%+ of BlackCoin's volume still comes from Mintpal, I'm not sure if they've had much success in developing a community outside the alt-coin miners?

& IMO alt-coin miners aren't really a community but more like a plague of locusts. They've put many mining pools over the 51% hashrate barrier. Even Bitcoin pools have had to increase their fees (BTC Guild) or stop new people joining their pool (Ghash.io) in the past to get their hashrates down. To me this shows alt-coin miners are the least 'community like' group out there. They don't even care if they kill their host in the process of swarming onto the most profitable coin or mining pool of the hour. (So the majority of BlackCoin holders are the antithesis of us and probably not a community we want to airdrop AGS directly too though I'm not completely against some other form of alliance.) I also therefore think that attracting alt-coin miners has little to do with marketing and more to do with just being the current most profitable alternative. Unfortunately BlackCoin  may have a limited shelf life in that respect, once it starts hitting 50-100 million, the alt-coin miners will likely be more profitable moving onto a lower CAP POS where their volume flow moves their share price more. 


Offline MrJeans

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I would like to exercise laws 4 and 6 of the 10 natural laws of the crypto-equity universe.
4. They will clone it if just to give it a better name.
6. They will clone it to better appeal to another group of stakeholders

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