Author Topic: Blackshares, can it be done? Is it in our mutual benefit? Brainstorm here  (Read 9580 times)

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Offline CLains

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Business is all about relationships and Bitshares is a business (not a cult!).

We aren't preaching the gospel, we are trying to make money. This means we have need friends.

I don't understand the attitude I see around here.

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Offline fuzzy

http://www.reddit.com/r/BeyondBitcoinShow/comments/23qrno/reggie_middleton_talks_ultracoin_cryptocurrency/ 

Reggie Middleton has stated that he would be willing to answer questions regarding Ultracoin on the Beyond Bitcoin thread I posted on the subreddit.  Dan told me not too long ago he would like to have more people to chat with him regarding alternative opinions (and this helps all of us). 

I recommend going and asking him questions as well as upvoting the *side note* asking him to join up for a meetup on the Mumble Server. 

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Offline donkeypong

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Yup, I'm right there with you. My term "shameless bribe" was tongue-in-cheek, and a bit of a complement. Any sort of an air drop would be a shameless bribe. We will need these sorts of partnerships. I heartily agree with you that the coin mergers are coming, like it or not.

Bitshares is much more than a coin. Once we figure out how to bring in some members of various alt coin communities, we will be able to leverage their numbers and energy, while helping them participate in something revolutionary and rewarding. I think it's utterly shortsighted not to consider these partnerships.

Offline luckybit

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Blackcoin collaborating with Doge. Looks to me like a shameless bribe.

http://www.followthecoin.com/blackcoin-supports-dogecon-first-coin-to-ever-support-a-conference/
Perhaps I'm not being cynical enough here but...

How could anyone see this news as bad? We should be collaborating as well. Business is all about relationships and Bitshares is a business (not a cult!). Blackcoin and Dogecoin have something in common and that is marketing talent, so it makes perfect sense for them to have a Dogecon.

We aren't preaching the gospel, we are trying to make money. This means we have need friends.

I don't understand the attitude I see around here.



The crypto-mergers are coming whether we like it or not. Let's collaborate with Blackcoin on Blackshares so we can be both in the news and a part of this conference.

Look at who will be there
http://www.followthecoin.com/dogeconsf/
« Last Edit: April 23, 2014, 04:01:37 am by luckybit »
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Offline fuzzy

Communitycoin is another 100% POS with multipool.

http://community.bitcoinland.org/multipool/

They also have "Coin Control" allows you to control sending the coins with minimum coin-age, so to preserve maximum the pos generation.

They distributed the coins to "a selected community of experienced Crypto users, marketers and developers."

Another interesting experiment in live action.

yum...
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Offline CLains

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Communitycoin is another 100% POS with multipool.

http://community.bitcoinland.org/multipool/

They also have "Coin Control" allows you to control sending the coins with minimum coin-age, so to preserve maximum the pos generation.

They distributed the coins to "a selected community of experienced Crypto users, marketers and developers."

Another interesting experiment in live action.

Offline fuzzy


And with that cryptic response I will get back to work.


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@Dan, I think you need to understand that this entire thread is based off of the knowledge that DPOS and its future iterations are going to be a GIFT to the entirety of POS coins.  If it works like it seems like it could, we are looking at a frigging game-changer.  I do not have all the answers, and just because I pose my own often-misled theories they are only there for people to think over.  Hell, 1 out of approximately every 1000 actually get used! 

If anything, you should consider this thread a testament to how absolutely powerful we think this innovation will be...that we actually think POS altcoins will jump at the chance to compete for its implementation on altchains should tell you that your hard work and perpetual problem solving means something.  Do I know how it will ultimately manifest?  Hell no, but I do know that there are as many distros of linux as you can shake a stick at...its just the nature of the beast.  And I know that the "threats" to investors are pretty difficult to predict.  Even well thought out solutions seem like shots in the dark to a certain extent.  I for one like contemplating it, though I'm sure you want to bang your head against the wall at times :)

Oh, and btw, I have never once redacted the volunteerd 10% of my stake (though I am sure I am a little guy compared to some who will likely choose to donate nothing to the cause).

I am making no direct judgement on this thread... merely hinting that I have another approach that will gain the attention of these other POS coin holders in a way that is much cheaper. 

I think that we need to carefully consider all ideas.

Yum...

We could Airdrop the Dogecoin community 10% of the Bitshares Lotto DAC for example with the intention of giving them a taste of what it's like to cooperate with our community. Once they see how profitable cooperation can be they'll want to go 50/50 with us on a future DAC co-developed using feedback from both communities.
thinkers rather than a community of followers.

Ideas like this are priceless..



Thanks for this post.  Great thinking in this whole thread.
But we would like to challenge you to go a step further:

Even more than a community of thinkers, we need a community of doers!
Don't wait for us to do stuff - take the lead yourselves.

BitShares is a decentralized community!
If you have a great promotion idea, go team with somebody and make it so!

We'll be there to help, but don't wait for us to lead.

That way leads to the dark side.

I agree, but there is a limit to what I feel comfortable doing/promoting without the backing of the community and the developers who are literally indenturing themselves to improving this project for myself and the rest of the community. 

There is literally nothing else stopping me from going on Blackcoin's boards and offering this idea for them to accept...except for an understanding that I am only one person here and one who has certainly made mistakes in the past and will likely do so in the future. 

Far better to look at the stars than to look at my reflection if you know what I mean :)
« Last Edit: April 22, 2014, 07:38:27 am by fuznuts »
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Offline Stan

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I honestly do not mind donating to the other option (though I am near certain I am in a very small minority)--and it is understandable why this fact is so frustrating (because it is obvious it would only increase the value of bitShares over time).  These are both good ways to do it, but I also have no clue how we can protect from other coins' devs and communities simply taking the source code once it has been tested--all bugs fixed--and cloning it with slight alterations (even improvements).  Not completely convinced that even strategic airdrops to keyhotee/blackcoin/bitcoin/mastercoin/ether will protect us from that. 
I explained how.

Each chain should offer something different. We should help communities make a custom chain and that would mean new BitAssets, slightly different tweaks, new untested features and innovations which get tested out on these custom chains.

The Bitshares is like a family of DACs. Blackshares would be like a step son, the offspring of the Bitshares community and the Blackcoin community. It would be based on Bitshares but more than a mere cut and paste clone.

Anyone can cut and paste a clone. I could cut and paste a clone. Anyone could change a few parameters around and act like it's something new. That is not good for the PoS community and I'm thinking of something better than that.

We can only fit 16 different assets give or take into each chain. This means we need a diversity of different chains to test out more assets. Blackshares with different assets in it and some unique surprise innovations would be enough to get our community interested in trying it out and since we'd own 50% of it we'd use it. The Blackcoin community would own the other 50% and the assets in their chain would be the assets they choose just as long as it's not the same set of assets that are in the original Bitshares chain it's win/win.

The PoS community needs to be encouraged to use DPoS. We can do this by these strategic mergers where we split the profit from it 50/50 and co-develop custom Bitshares chains with input from the best minds of both communities. Then both communities test these chains out and also the size of the DPoS community grows with each of these merger operations.

Airdrops are best to be used to get people to use Keyhotee and for future DACs like Lotto. I think with the Dogecoin community they might appreciate something like the DogeLotto which is a rebranded and customized chain of Bitshares Lotto. Both of these chains could co-exist but before you can convince people to want a DogeLotto you should try the Airdrop method because that method is the most cost effective.

We could Airdrop the Dogecoin community 10% of the Bitshares Lotto DAC for example with the intention of giving them a taste of what it's like to cooperate with our community. Once they see how profitable cooperation can be they'll want to go 50/50 with us on a future DAC co-developed using feedback from both communities.
Bytemaster is a genius...this is a certainty.  But this does not mean he is a god and that another dev team might not find a way to improve upon the bitShares code and release it wholly as their own (to the detriment of our community) either. 
But this is about as unlikely as someone releasing a better Bitcoin client than Satoshi and the core developers could release. It's possible in theory but it's not like you can just learn how DPoS works overnight when it keeps changing.

I think Bytemaster is the only man right now who can make it all work. Other developers can read the code, and improve on it in certain ways, but Bytemaster understands the economics. There is an authenticity that you gain by having official support from Bytemaster, and from the Bitshares community. I'm convinced at least for now that Bytemaster with the support of the rest of us have a significant advantage just because we're a community focused on these topics already while another community would have to start from scratch. Six months or a year from now this advantage will be gone which is why you want to form your alliances early.

Or better yet, they could launch an altchain and give all bitShares to Bitcoin holders.  If this happens, we need to have a far greater adoption of bitShares than these other chains can hope to get.
And we could launch an altchain and give it to Bitcoin holders and compete with theirs. Our chain could be better. And our distribution could go to the smallest holders in Bitcoin. We could do it far more fair. We could add new features, new assets, stuff which only Bytemaster could add in and ideas which only our community would come up with.

Our advantage is that as a community of minds and talent we are top notch. It's not just Bytemaster, it's the chemistry of all of us combined that another community would have to compete with. Just because someone can cut and paste the Bitshares code and try to act like it's something new, it does not mean it would compete with an actual innovative new chain designed and tailored for the Bitcoin community. So that idea doesn't really concern me because that could happen to Ethereum, to NXT, and so on, but the reason why it's not going to be a concern is because a cheap cut and paste isn't going to be seen as a positive or unique innovation when all the mechanics and assets inside that chain are exactly the same.

The economics would also probably be wrong too. Bitcoin is inflating, so to map a Proof of Stake on top of a Proof of Work? You could do it, but how would you do it in a way which is fair?
This is a big if...especially considering severely lacking support from the crypto-community outside our little watering hole here. 

Trust me when I say I am here for the betterment of the community at large too...and I think my efforts are proving it (Thank god I have a wife who understands my motivations and has patience with my ridiculous altruistic nature--or I'd be divorced for my constant juggling of items between here and my real life). 

With that said, the simple fact that people are bringing this up means that these ideas are wanting to be tested.  This, to me, means we are already at a point where fracturing can (and likely will) occur at some point in the future.  I know for certain that NoirShares is being worked on because of rifts that grew (which is ok).  For the life of me, I have a hard time understanding how we can seem to get upset when ideas are flourishing.  This is not a bad thing!  Decentralization wants to be decentralized! 

The whole design of Bitshares is that it would have multiple diverse chains each unique. This is actually one of the most promising features because it keeps things decentralized, allows alt communities to benefit, and there is no reason why they would have to clone our chain.

The original Bitshares chain should have its own unique assets in it. You can only fit a certain number of assets per chain anyway so we have to create forks on our own. It was assumed that we could just fork and keep 100% to ourselves but that probably isn't going to work.

So if we split 50/50 with other communities, they would have not just any fork but the best fork and the fork supported by the official Bitshares community. By giving us 50% and them 50%, you'd grow the size of both communities and the fringe developers who want to do something other than 50/50 will not be looked at as being fair. You cannot beat 50/50.

Can someone explain why is it a bad thing to have multiple versions of this tech go out 50/50 as "air drops" that also give all current stakeholders a stake in them?  I mean if something happens to bitShares (*knocks on wood*), but I have a 50% equal stake in the blackShares, peerShares, dogeShares or whatever other coin communities sign on...I will sure be glad I had the insurance that came from the good will between these "separate" communities.  I'll also be glad when another community with a talented marketing team finds a way to produce a series on DACs that my bitShares will benefit from (as a general audience grows more well-versed in the tech because of their videos)--wouldnt these efforts trickle up to benefit the bitShares community without ever requiring the use of AGS funds to pay for it?

That is what I think will happen and that is what I'm proposing should happen. It's better that we split with the PoS community 50/50 for Bitshares. I'm not advocating Dogeshares because they aren't PoS. Peershares are hybrid PoS so it's iffy. But Blackcoin is a community which holds the same economic values as our community and a way to promote these values is to build an alliance with the communities with them first.

If we are all about PoS replacing PoW then we should be forming alliances with PoS. This would promote DPoS and make the altcoin community switch to PoS. PoW will still exist and we can airdrop to them, but I think Bitshares as a chain should be all about PoS. This is something we can debate about for the future but I don't think it's fair to map Bitshares onto a blockchain which is inflating unless you can show that the community is truly asking for a switch to PoS. Bitcoin doesn't want to be seen as a share but if enough people do want that then we could come up with a Bitcoin edition of Bitshares.

How can creating sidechains that honor other altcoins hurt the community if those communities want to honor bitShares holders in return for support by our community and (genius) devs?  We forget how valuable BM's brain will be considered to other cryptocommunities once they start getting an equal stake in a chain that Bytemaster's code enhanced in ways they never could have conceived.
Let's not put all of the value into Bytemaster. All of our brains are valuable as we all have unique talents. It's Bytemaster who is the programming and technical wizard, but there is a lot of talent in this community and that is what matters.

They can clone the source code, they cannot clone our brains. Any success we reach will be due to our brains, while the code is an expression of output which results from the coming together of minds and Bytemaster's technical wizardry. It's not just programming which will make Bitshares a success but the understanding of economics, the creative out of the box thinking, the willingness to test and fund completely new ideas.
  In this way, instead of stealing his brilliant ideas they are more likely to become part of a broader community that enhance eachothers' ability to innovate, which can then be adopted by all other forks, and even later improved upon by Dan and his team..

I do not pretend to have all the answers, and PLEASE TELL ME where my reasoning is faulty.  I truly believe we can figure these things out...but we need to really WEIGH the positives and negatives of the options we see as opposed to saying "just shoot me now" (which was wonderful comic relief, btw).

I agree with you on a lot of this. I think that even if they could steal Bytemaster away from this community (and I'm sure they could not), there are others here they'd have to steal away too in order to win. The Bitcoin community has almost not chance of doing that. The Ethereum community or Mastercoin community might peel some of us away but as long as we own shares in this community we will promote this community.

I don't think people understand that when you distribute the shares you're getting the support of the top minds in every community. The number 1 resource of any community is it's thinkers.

P.S.  Lets try to compile a list of downsides and upsides for the Air Drop to Keyhotee/Bitcoin/Blackcoin/Mastercoin/Ether compared to forging new DACs that enhance POS coins.  Lets make this productive...and most of all, lets remember this has been one of the coolest experiments in the history of equities and we are lucky enough to all be in the position to even worry about these things.  I know that, personally, I feel blessed to have been a part of this up to this point...even if I don't always agree with the friends I have made here. 


*final note*--screw the Nay-Sayers...and lets not focus on the negative FUD they try to spread, it is precisely the variations of ideas that will strengthen our ecosystem over time against the threats we may someday face (perfect example here:  https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=4284.msg53910#msg53910). Most of these people do not even have a clue what the hell POS is let along DPOS.  Their unwillingness to research is their fault, not ours.

A pro and con list would be a good idea. To me the pros outweigh the cons which is why I am in support of these ideas. We want better marketing, we want fork resistance, and the best way to have that is to do the fork ourselves to the PoS community to at least form economic alliances with other PoS chains.

Some communities will not believe in fairness and if they don't believe in fairness there are options we have which could be unfair as well. This is why it's all about being a community of thinkers rather than a community of followers.

Thanks for this post.  Great thinking in this whole thread.
But we would like to challenge you to go a step further:

Even more than a community of thinkers, we need a community of doers!
Don't wait for us to do stuff - take the lead yourselves.

BitShares is a decentralized community!
If you have a great promotion idea, go team with somebody and make it so!

We'll be there to help, but don't wait for us to lead.

That way leads to the dark side.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2014, 01:44:56 am by Stan »
Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract of any kind.   These are merely my opinions which I reserve the right to change at any time.

Offline Empirical1

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And with that cryptic response I will get back to work.


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Empirical1, if you read between the lines here, you will see....


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No way dude  :) They are not the same person. I'm 99%+ sure on that.

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And with that cryptic response I will get back to work.


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Empirical1, if you read between the lines here, you will see....


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Offline luckybit

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Damnit...I should close this window.  Lol...

I see no reason why Dan and the team should not go down this avenue.  It goes right along with his philosophy of only changing things when it will give more to the investors in this project.  And lets face facts, with the work Invictus is doing, someone is going to eventually come along and fork this anyway...with NONE of the funding/effort we put into bringing this to fruition--and they'll only honor their investors, completely cutting the community out.  At least this way we can get them to continue supporting this new ecosystem. 

I still think we should do it one community at a time because to do a merger properly should take time. It's not just copy and paste. The other reason is I don't think Bitshares is for every community. I think it's something the PoS community with similar values would want but it's not for everyone.

There are other DACs which will be more suitable for other communities in my opinion. So I'm all about being inclusive, but one step at a time and one community at a time. It takes time to actually create these DACs, and custom DACs take time as well.

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Offline luckybit

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I honestly do not mind donating to the other option (though I am near certain I am in a very small minority)--and it is understandable why this fact is so frustrating (because it is obvious it would only increase the value of bitShares over time).  These are both good ways to do it, but I also have no clue how we can protect from other coins' devs and communities simply taking the source code once it has been tested--all bugs fixed--and cloning it with slight alterations (even improvements).  Not completely convinced that even strategic airdrops to keyhotee/blackcoin/bitcoin/mastercoin/ether will protect us from that. 
I explained how.

Each chain should offer something different. We should help communities make a custom chain and that would mean new BitAssets, slightly different tweaks, new untested features and innovations which get tested out on these custom chains.

The Bitshares is like a family of DACs. Blackshares would be like a step son, the offspring of the Bitshares community and the Blackcoin community. It would be based on Bitshares but more than a mere cut and paste clone.

Anyone can cut and paste a clone. I could cut and paste a clone. Anyone could change a few parameters around and act like it's something new. That is not good for the PoS community and I'm thinking of something better than that.

We can only fit 16 different assets give or take into each chain. This means we need a diversity of different chains to test out more assets. Blackshares with different assets in it and some unique surprise innovations would be enough to get our community interested in trying it out and since we'd own 50% of it we'd use it. The Blackcoin community would own the other 50% and the assets in their chain would be the assets they choose just as long as it's not the same set of assets that are in the original Bitshares chain it's win/win.

The PoS community needs to be encouraged to use DPoS. We can do this by these strategic mergers where we split the profit from it 50/50 and co-develop custom Bitshares chains with input from the best minds of both communities. Then both communities test these chains out and also the size of the DPoS community grows with each of these merger operations.

Airdrops are best to be used to get people to use Keyhotee and for future DACs like Lotto. I think with the Dogecoin community they might appreciate something like the DogeLotto which is a rebranded and customized chain of Bitshares Lotto. Both of these chains could co-exist but before you can convince people to want a DogeLotto you should try the Airdrop method because that method is the most cost effective.

We could Airdrop the Dogecoin community 10% of the Bitshares Lotto DAC for example with the intention of giving them a taste of what it's like to cooperate with our community. Once they see how profitable cooperation can be they'll want to go 50/50 with us on a future DAC co-developed using feedback from both communities.
Bytemaster is a genius...this is a certainty.  But this does not mean he is a god and that another dev team might not find a way to improve upon the bitShares code and release it wholly as their own (to the detriment of our community) either. 
But this is about as unlikely as someone releasing a better Bitcoin client than Satoshi and the core developers could release. It's possible in theory but it's not like you can just learn how DPoS works overnight when it keeps changing.

I think Bytemaster is the only man right now who can make it all work. Other developers can read the code, and improve on it in certain ways, but Bytemaster understands the economics. There is an authenticity that you gain by having official support from Bytemaster, and from the Bitshares community. I'm convinced at least for now that Bytemaster with the support of the rest of us have a significant advantage just because we're a community focused on these topics already while another community would have to start from scratch. Six months or a year from now this advantage will be gone which is why you want to form your alliances early.

Or better yet, they could launch an altchain and give all bitShares to Bitcoin holders.  If this happens, we need to have a far greater adoption of bitShares than these other chains can hope to get.
And we could launch an altchain and give it to Bitcoin holders and compete with theirs. Our chain could be better. And our distribution could go to the smallest holders in Bitcoin. We could do it far more fair. We could add new features, new assets, stuff which only Bytemaster could add in and ideas which only our community would come up with.

Our advantage is that as a community of minds and talent we are top notch. It's not just Bytemaster, it's the chemistry of all of us combined that another community would have to compete with. Just because someone can cut and paste the Bitshares code and try to act like it's something new, it does not mean it would compete with an actual innovative new chain designed and tailored for the Bitcoin community. So that idea doesn't really concern me because that could happen to Ethereum, to NXT, and so on, but the reason why it's not going to be a concern is because a cheap cut and paste isn't going to be seen as a positive or unique innovation when all the mechanics and assets inside that chain are exactly the same.

The economics would also probably be wrong too. Bitcoin is inflating, so to map a Proof of Stake on top of a Proof of Work? You could do it, but how would you do it in a way which is fair?
This is a big if...especially considering severely lacking support from the crypto-community outside our little watering hole here. 

Trust me when I say I am here for the betterment of the community at large too...and I think my efforts are proving it (Thank god I have a wife who understands my motivations and has patience with my ridiculous altruistic nature--or I'd be divorced for my constant juggling of items between here and my real life). 

With that said, the simple fact that people are bringing this up means that these ideas are wanting to be tested.  This, to me, means we are already at a point where fracturing can (and likely will) occur at some point in the future.  I know for certain that NoirShares is being worked on because of rifts that grew (which is ok).  For the life of me, I have a hard time understanding how we can seem to get upset when ideas are flourishing.  This is not a bad thing!  Decentralization wants to be decentralized! 

The whole design of Bitshares is that it would have multiple diverse chains each unique. This is actually one of the most promising features because it keeps things decentralized, allows alt communities to benefit, and there is no reason why they would have to clone our chain.

The original Bitshares chain should have its own unique assets in it. You can only fit a certain number of assets per chain anyway so we have to create forks on our own. It was assumed that we could just fork and keep 100% to ourselves but that probably isn't going to work.

So if we split 50/50 with other communities, they would have not just any fork but the best fork and the fork supported by the official Bitshares community. By giving us 50% and them 50%, you'd grow the size of both communities and the fringe developers who want to do something other than 50/50 will not be looked at as being fair. You cannot beat 50/50.

Can someone explain why is it a bad thing to have multiple versions of this tech go out 50/50 as "air drops" that also give all current stakeholders a stake in them?  I mean if something happens to bitShares (*knocks on wood*), but I have a 50% equal stake in the blackShares, peerShares, dogeShares or whatever other coin communities sign on...I will sure be glad I had the insurance that came from the good will between these "separate" communities.  I'll also be glad when another community with a talented marketing team finds a way to produce a series on DACs that my bitShares will benefit from (as a general audience grows more well-versed in the tech because of their videos)--wouldnt these efforts trickle up to benefit the bitShares community without ever requiring the use of AGS funds to pay for it?

That is what I think will happen and that is what I'm proposing should happen. It's better that we split with the PoS community 50/50 for Bitshares. I'm not advocating Dogeshares because they aren't PoS. Peershares are hybrid PoS so it's iffy. But Blackcoin is a community which holds the same economic values as our community and a way to promote these values is to build an alliance with the communities with them first.

If we are all about PoS replacing PoW then we should be forming alliances with PoS. This would promote DPoS and make the altcoin community switch to PoS. PoW will still exist and we can airdrop to them, but I think Bitshares as a chain should be all about PoS. This is something we can debate about for the future but I don't think it's fair to map Bitshares onto a blockchain which is inflating unless you can show that the community is truly asking for a switch to PoS. Bitcoin doesn't want to be seen as a share but if enough people do want that then we could come up with a Bitcoin edition of Bitshares.

How can creating sidechains that honor other altcoins hurt the community if those communities want to honor bitShares holders in return for support by our community and (genius) devs?  We forget how valuable BM's brain will be considered to other cryptocommunities once they start getting an equal stake in a chain that Bytemaster's code enhanced in ways they never could have conceived.
Let's not put all of the value into Bytemaster. All of our brains are valuable as we all have unique talents. It's Bytemaster who is the programming and technical wizard, but there is a lot of talent in this community and that is what matters.

They can clone the source code, they cannot clone our brains. Any success we reach will be due to our brains, while the code is an expression of output which results from the coming together of minds and Bytemaster's technical wizardry. It's not just programming which will make Bitshares a success but the understanding of economics, the creative out of the box thinking, the willingness to test and fund completely new ideas.
  In this way, instead of stealing his brilliant ideas they are more likely to become part of a broader community that enhance eachothers' ability to innovate, which can then be adopted by all other forks, and even later improved upon by Dan and his team..

I do not pretend to have all the answers, and PLEASE TELL ME where my reasoning is faulty.  I truly believe we can figure these things out...but we need to really WEIGH the positives and negatives of the options we see as opposed to saying "just shoot me now" (which was wonderful comic relief, btw).

I agree with you on a lot of this. I think that even if they could steal Bytemaster away from this community (and I'm sure they could not), there are others here they'd have to steal away too in order to win. The Bitcoin community has almost not chance of doing that. The Ethereum community or Mastercoin community might peel some of us away but as long as we own shares in this community we will promote this community.

I don't think people understand that when you distribute the shares you're getting the support of the top minds in every community. The number 1 resource of any community is it's thinkers.

P.S.  Lets try to compile a list of downsides and upsides for the Air Drop to Keyhotee/Bitcoin/Blackcoin/Mastercoin/Ether compared to forging new DACs that enhance POS coins.  Lets make this productive...and most of all, lets remember this has been one of the coolest experiments in the history of equities and we are lucky enough to all be in the position to even worry about these things.  I know that, personally, I feel blessed to have been a part of this up to this point...even if I don't always agree with the friends I have made here. 


*final note*--screw the Nay-Sayers...and lets not focus on the negative FUD they try to spread, it is precisely the variations of ideas that will strengthen our ecosystem over time against the threats we may someday face (perfect example here:  https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=4284.msg53910#msg53910). Most of these people do not even have a clue what the hell POS is let along DPOS.  Their unwillingness to research is their fault, not ours.

A pro and con list would be a good idea. To me the pros outweigh the cons which is why I am in support of these ideas. We want better marketing, we want fork resistance, and the best way to have that is to do the fork ourselves to the PoS community to at least form economic alliances with other PoS chains.

Some communities will not believe in fairness and if they don't believe in fairness there are options we have which could be unfair as well. This is why it's all about being a community of thinkers rather than a community of followers.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2014, 12:54:15 am by luckybit »
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Offline bytemaster


And with that cryptic response I will get back to work.


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@Dan, I think you need to understand that this entire thread is based off of the knowledge that DPOS and its future iterations are going to be a GIFT to the entirety of POS coins.  If it works like it seems like it could, we are looking at a frigging game-changer.  I do not have all the answers, and just because I pose my own often-misled theories they are only there for people to think over.  Hell, 1 out of approximately every 1000 actually get used! 

If anything, you should consider this thread a testament to how absolutely powerful we think this innovation will be...that we actually think POS altcoins will jump at the chance to compete for its implementation on altchains should tell you that your hard work and perpetual problem solving means something.  Do I know how it will ultimately manifest?  Hell no, but I do know that there are as many distros of linux as you can shake a stick at...its just the nature of the beast.  And I know that the "threats" to investors are pretty difficult to predict.  Even well thought out solutions seem like shots in the dark to a certain extent.  I for one like contemplating it, though I'm sure you want to bang your head against the wall at times :)

Oh, and btw, I have never once redacted the volunteerd 10% of my stake (though I am sure I am a little guy compared to some who will likely choose to donate nothing to the cause).

I am making no direct judgement on this thread... merely hinting that I have another approach that will gain the attention of these other POS coin holders in a way that is much cheaper. 

I think that we need to carefully consider all ideas.
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Offline Empirical1

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in why is it a bad thing to have multiple versions of this tech go out 50/50 as "air drops" that also give all current stakeholders a stake in them?  I mean if something happens to bitShares (*knocks on wood*), but I have a 50% equal stake in the blackShares, peerShares, dogeShares or whatever other coin communities sign on...I will sure be glad I had the insurance that came from the good will between these "separate" communities.  I'll also be glad when another community with a talented marketing team finds a way to produce a series on DACs that my bitShares will benefit from (as a general audience grows more well-versed in the tech because of their videos)--wouldnt these efforts trickle up to benefit the bitShares community without ever requiring the use of AGS funds to pay for it?

I don't think it's a bad thing at all. If an entrepeneur/developer wants to set it up and handling most of the technicalities for 5% of the shares or something, I'm all for that. I wouldn't suggest Invictus actively get too involved in the process though because it could perhaps suggest they don't have faith in their own community/Bitshares Brand enough to stand on its own.

I doubt they (DogeShares/BlackShares etc.) will get much traction though, my thinking goes something like this..

Bitshares XT is already distributed among a few thousand investors. As soon the XT is tradeable I'd imagine it would have a $10-25 million CAP. It would still take a little while for the actual working release, during which time, anyone in the alt-coin community who liked the idea could invest, giving us a few hundred/thousand more investors and if everything goes smoothly I wouldn't be surprised to see a $40-60 million CAP pre-launch. If it's released and it all works pretty well then our market CAP and our community size would quickly be !!!  8) ????

That would really be the soonest anyone could fork and airdrop a clone, (personally I'm not concerned with overly large airdrops anyway) but I also think in this case we'll also already be too dominant for a clone to have much of a shot at that stage. (Then the momentum just builds, a successful Bitshares X will bring even more people into Bitshares in general and future DAC's and so on...)

But yes there's no harm in making new chains than honour 50/50 with other communities or 45/45 and 10 for whatever developer & or entrepreneurs want to give it a go.  imo.