Author Topic: crypto & blockchain technologies for a post fossil/capitalist sustainable world  (Read 10381 times)

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Offline Agent86

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tipon, You seem to be thinking of growth in terms of environmental impact, natural resources consumed etc.

Do you think if people were cooperating in a "non capitalist" way that there won't be growth?  Would there still be population growth?

Maybe what you mean by capitalism causing growth is how others have mentioned that inflation can cause people to spend more recklessly because their money will be worth less tomorrow than it is today so you basically have to spend it now and this might be wasteful.

I think a lot of growth in terms of natural resources consumed is caused by population growth; perhaps this would happen regardless of capitalism.  A lot of other species grow exponentially until they max out their resources, habitat, food sources etc. and then stabilize

Offline Stan

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You cannot compare a hammer with other technologies.
In the same way as you , i think hammers are neutral technologies.
But take in consideration other types of technologies.
The necessity of growth of the system impulsed the development of a certain type of technology with specific characteristics.
This necessity of growth doesnt only implies the necessity of incrementing productivity but also the necessity of incrementing the mechanisms of social control.
The development of techniques and technologies in capitalism is result of a political process of social forces impulsed by big capitals.
Much of the characteristics that tecnology had adopted is not result from a technology that have evolved autonomously independent from a social context and withouth influence of economic powers.
Is result of a technology concieved to be used as political weapon.
Technologies are not neutral because it changes the world, it affects individuals. Its not possible to separate a capitalist technology from the use we made of it. Capital ideology is incorporated and hidden in technologies.
Now, most of the characteristics that have adopted technologies of information is result of a technology conceived to be used as a mechanism of social control.


You cannot think in "growth" as something independant to the natural world.
You cannot have growth for ever, thats the problem .

I would like that our world was infinite and we can have infinite growth, but its not possible.

There is no such limit to growth:

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Offline puppies

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Are you speaking of growth as in an increase in the number next to a ledger balance, or an increase in the use of natural resources. 


This is the most important question asked so far. What kind of growth?

The use of natural resources? Bitshares doesn't have to use any non-renewable resources to grow because it's just information. You need electricity of course, and you need enough resources to transmit data along the electromagnetic spectrum, but this is far more efficient than the way we do businesses today.

We could make the argument that Proof of Work is Proof of Waste but Bitshares does not use Proof of Work.

Exactly.  I'm 100% for growing value.  I think everybody is once they realize that value is subjective.  I'm also for growing productivity (although not at the expense of value)

The fact that I can have this conversation with people half way around the world at such little cost to myself is a testament to the value I derive from the massive increase in productivity.  100 years ago this level of productivity was impossible. 
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Offline tipon

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You cannot compare a hammer with other technologies.
In the same way as you , i think hammers are neutral technologies.
But take in consideration other types of technologies.
The necessity of growth of the system impulsed the development of a certain type of technology with specific characteristics.
This necessity of growth doesnt only implies the necessity of incrementing productivity but also the necessity of incrementing the mechanisms of social control.
The development of techniques and technologies in capitalism is result of a political process of social forces impulsed by big capitals.
Much of the characteristics that tecnology had adopted is not result from a technology that have evolved autonomously independent from a social context and withouth influence of economic powers.
Is result of a technology concieved to be used as political weapon of economic powers.
Technologies are not neutral because they changes the world, they affect individuals. Its not possible to separate a capitalist technology from the use we made of it. Capital ideology is incorporated and hidden in technologies.
In every information architecture theres always hidden a power structure.
Now, most of the characteristics that have adopted technologies of information is result of a technology conceived to be used as a mechanism of social control.


You cannot think in "growth" as something independant to the natural world.
You cannot have growth for ever, thats the problem .

I would like that our world was infinite and we can have infinite growth, but its not possible.






Are you telling me that is possible to have a capitalist system withouth growth?


I think you are making a big big big mistake interpreting technologies as political neutral.

Technologies are NOT neutral !!!! Neutrality of technologies is part of the ideology of capitalism.

Technology is neutral but you aren't. The hammer doesn't care about any ism. The Internet itself doesn't care what information flows through it, people care. The Internet resulted in economic growth and as a result we are able to communicate right now.

I never said you can have capitalism without growth. I'm saying growth in itself isn't bad. Any social problem you wish to solve requires growth. If you want a better world that also requires growth. You cannot build renewable energy technology, explore space, or do anything without growth.

So growth is important. But it's a matter of whether what is growing at this time is important? Growth in the right areas is what should be encouraged and this is a social decision. If you're advocating an anti-growth stance even if it's positive growth then we are in disagreement. If you're arguing that the current system promotes growth which is counter productive to the future survival of humanity, which is unsustainable, then I will agree and say redirect the growth and make it sustainable.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2014, 01:20:09 am by tipon »

Offline luckybit

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Are you speaking of growth as in an increase in the number next to a ledger balance, or an increase in the use of natural resources. 


This is the most important question asked so far. What kind of growth?

The use of natural resources? Bitshares doesn't have to use any non-renewable resources to grow because it's just information. You need electricity of course, and you need enough resources to transmit data along the electromagnetic spectrum, but this is far more efficient than the way we do businesses today.

We could make the argument that Proof of Work is Proof of Waste but Bitshares does not use Proof of Work.
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Offline luckybit

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Are you telling me that is possible to have a capitalist system withouth growth?


I think you are making a big big big mistake interpreting technologies as political neutral.

Technologies are NOT neutral !!!! Neutrality of technologies is part of the ideology of capitalism.

Technology is neutral but you aren't. The hammer doesn't care about any ism. The Internet itself doesn't care what information flows through it, people care. The Internet resulted in economic growth and as a result we are able to communicate right now.

I never said you can have capitalism without growth. I'm saying growth in itself isn't bad. Any social problem you wish to solve requires growth. If you want a better world that also requires growth. You cannot build renewable energy technology, explore space, or do anything without growth.

So growth is important. But it's a matter of whether what is growing at this time is important? Growth in the right areas is what should be encouraged and this is a social decision. If you're advocating an anti-growth stance even if it's positive growth then we are in disagreement. If you're arguing that the current system promotes growth which is counter productive to the future survival of humanity, which is unsustainable, then I will agree and say redirect the growth and make it sustainable.

« Last Edit: May 01, 2014, 12:45:01 am by luckybit »
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Offline puppies

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As I've said on this forum in the past, inflation contributes to the thug mentality.

I define the thug mentality as the same sort of mentality you're talking about where people have to compete to survive, where resources are artificially made scarce to force people to compete using the most ruthless means they can, why does this happen?

People say inflation is a good thing because it causes people to spend money. But using inflation to cause people to spend money means people are going to be on a constant treadmill which requires them to earn money as fast (or faster) than they spend it. It makes it so people can only think about short term profits, it provides an incentive for people (corporations) to act psychopathic.

It's not capitalism which is the problem, it's the form of it that we have. And the reason we have this form of capitalism is because it was forced on us all without the option of letting us choose. People don't choose to be born rich or poor, nor do they choose to be desperate, but when people are both poor and desperate they do anything necessary to resolve their conditions.

Rich people who have property/wealth will do anything necessary to protect it. This is why rich people tend to want strong property rights to protect themselves from the have nots who want to either use the government to tax and redistribute the wealth to themselves, or who want to burglarize them.

The problem isn't the "ism", and it's not the people, it's the culture and the system which shapes the behavior. If you have capitalism but only social corporations are allowed to exist then all of the problems you mentioned wouldn't be problems with capitalism.

So my advice to you is to look at Bitshares as a politically neutral technology (just a tool like a hammer). Next look at how that politically neutral technology can help you solve a social problem. Focus on social enterprises, social capitalism, social entrepreneurship, because the Bitshares community is working hard to help empower people who want to use the tools of capitalism to solve the social ills of the world.

In fact, that is why I'm interested in Bitshares. I want to see a better world, and just going with the program set for us by the system is a path to failure for anyone who wants a better world. The system we have now isn't designed for producing a better world and the ism you use is irrelevant. If we used socialism then the socialism under this culture, using this system we have now, would be just as broken.

The reason I make that strong claim is because I think the source of all of these sorts of problems is that most people still are stuck in the industrial age with their thinking, their culture, their systems, institutions, schools, and until they move into the information age there isn't going to be positive change. Decentralized autonomous cooperatives will force the outdated thinking to adapt to the technological innovation and over time thinking will change just as it has with the Internet.

I'm right there with you buddy.  I might put a little more blame on centralized planning. I think it causes moral hazard which tends to cause people to devalue their fellow man.  Well stated post.
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Offline tonyk

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For me capitalism is our actual system based on infinite growth.
Infinite growth is the esence of capitalism and its result from competition.
Competition in the system impose to each capitalist the necessity of growing


Your definition is still too close to Marks for me!
 I like growth: - what do you want 90% of the population still needed to produce the food (for much smaller population BTW); 256K ram and 1.25 KHz processors? (‘Why we will ever need more than 256K ram’ as once Bill Gates famously said…
I like competition - what do you want BM seeing the defects of Bitcoin and not trying to improve on it?
« Last Edit: May 01, 2014, 12:37:16 am by tonyk »
Lack of arbitrage is the problem, isn't it. And this 'should' solves it.

Offline luckybit

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Shouldn't we all be constantly attempting to grow our true wealth? (that is our subjective value of the things that meet our wants needs and desires)  Do you think this type of growth is wrong?

This is one thing that the Bitshares community seems to understand better than other communities with similar ideals. In order to do good in the world you have to actually generate new wealth. Value has to be created before it can be distributed.

So when people propose we just print unlimited amounts of money this just dilutes and then redistributes. It's the problem with Proof of Work.

Proof of Work once centralized begins to look exactly like what we see with Quantitative Easing. People close to the production of new money are the ones who benefit. Where is that new people going? The dollar gets diluted so that value can be transferred from group A to group B in a sneak manner. Instead of taxing everyone and giving money directly to these people (they couldn't do that due to Occupy protesting), they instead print money and give it to where? Banks?

I see this similar to mining where eventually a point is reached where the average person cannot mine anymore and the few who can still mine eventually act like vampires. The shares held by everyone get diluted as new coins are generated. The people close to the production of new money ultimately get it for a very low cost while everyone else has to buy it from them, earn it, or if they are trying to save money then it's diluted but given to the miners because of changes in the distribution.

If mining were truly decentralized we could tolerate it because it would make the Bitcoin protocol more secure. Mining is not decentralized anymore. This is the primary reason why when discussing airdrops I only want to see airdrops between Proof of Stake coins. Coins which are mined like Bitcoin, Litecoin, Dogecoin, I might like and use these coins but there are a lot of miners who don't have to promote the coin, build anything, buy the coins, work for the coins, or make good trades, they just leave their machine on and pay the electric bill.

So they get way more coins than everyone else. If you do an airdrop with normal proportions you would reward centralization. So this is why I would say if you do airdrops to do it on Proof of Stake coins, and if you must airdrop Proof of Work then find some way to do it so that the people who hold the least proportions get the most rewards (if you can even figure out the proportions people hold).

« Last Edit: May 01, 2014, 12:37:43 am by luckybit »
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Offline tipon

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Are you telling me that is possible to have a capitalist system withouth growth?


I think you are making a big big big mistake interpreting technologies as political neutral.

Technologies are NOT neutral !!!! Neutrality of technologies is part of the ideology of capitalism.




As I've said on this forum in the past, inflation contributes to the thug mentality.

I define the thug mentality as the same sort of mentality you're talking about where people have to compete to survive, where resources are artificially made scarce to force people to compete using the most ruthless means they can, why does this happen?

People say inflation is a good thing because it causes people to spend money. But using inflation to cause people to spend money means people are going to be on a constant treadmill which requires them to earn money as fast (or faster) than they spend it. It makes it so people can only think about short term profits, it provides an incentive for people (corporations) to act psychopathic.

It's not capitalism which is the problem, it's the form of it that we have. And the reason we have this form of capitalism is because it was forced on us all without the option of letting us choose. People don't choose to be born rich or poor, nor do they choose to be desperate, but when people are both poor and desperate they do anything necessary to resolve their conditions.

Rich people who have property/wealth will do anything necessary to protect it. This is why rich people tend to want strong property rights to protect themselves from the have nots who want to either use the government to tax and redistribute the wealth to themselves, or who want to burglarize them.

The problem isn't the "ism", and it's not the people, it's the culture and the system which shapes the behavior. If you have capitalism but only social corporations are allowed to exist then all of the problems you mentioned wouldn't be problems with capitalism.

So my advice to you is to look at Bitshares as a politically neutral technology (just a tool like a hammer). Next look at how that politically neutral technology can help you solve a social problem. Focus on social enterprises, social capitalism, social entrepreneurship, because the Bitshares community is working hard to help empower people who want to use the tools of capitalism to solve the social ills of the world.

In fact, that is why I'm interested in Bitshares. I want to see a better world, and just going with the program set for us by the system is a path to failure for anyone who wants a better world. The system we have now isn't designed for producing a better world and the ism you use is irrelevant. If we used socialism then the socialism under this culture, using this system we have now, would be just as broken.

The reason I make that strong claim is because I think the source of all of these sorts of problems is that most people still are stuck in the industrial age with their thinking, their culture, their systems, institutions, schools, and until they move into the information age there isn't going to be positive change. Decentralized autonomous cooperatives will force the outdated thinking to adapt to the technological innovation and over time thinking will change just as it has with the Internet.

Offline luckybit

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As I've said on this forum in the past, inflation contributes to the thug mentality.

I define the thug mentality as the same sort of mentality you're talking about where people have to compete to survive, where resources are artificially made scarce to force people to compete using the most ruthless means they can, why does this happen?

People say inflation is a good thing because it causes people to spend money. But using inflation to cause people to spend money means people are going to be on a constant treadmill which requires them to earn money as fast (or faster) than they spend it. It makes it so people can only think about short term profits, it provides an incentive for people (corporations) to act psychopathic.

It's not capitalism which is the problem, it's the form of it that we have. And the reason we have this form of capitalism is because it was forced on us all without the option of letting us choose. People don't choose to be born rich or poor, nor do they choose to be desperate, but when people are both poor and desperate they do anything necessary to resolve their conditions.

Rich people who have property/wealth will do anything necessary to protect it. This is why rich people tend to want strong property rights to protect themselves from the have nots who want to either use the government to tax and redistribute the wealth to themselves, or who want to burglarize them.

The problem isn't the "ism", and it's not the people, it's the culture and the system which shapes the behavior. If you have capitalism but only social corporations are allowed to exist then all of the problems you mentioned wouldn't be problems with capitalism.

So my advice to you is to look at Bitshares as a politically neutral technology (just a tool like a hammer). Next look at how that politically neutral technology can help you solve a social problem. Focus on social enterprises, social capitalism, social entrepreneurship, because the Bitshares community is working hard to help empower people who want to use the tools of capitalism to solve the social ills of the world.

In fact, that is why I'm interested in Bitshares. I want to see a better world, and just going with the program set for us by the system is a path to failure for anyone who wants a better world. The system we have now isn't designed for producing a better world and the ism you use is irrelevant. If we used socialism then the socialism under this culture, using this system we have now, would be just as broken.

The reason I make that strong claim is because I think the source of all of these sorts of problems is that most people still are stuck in the industrial age with their thinking, their culture, their systems, institutions, schools, and until they move into the information age there isn't going to be positive change. Decentralized autonomous cooperatives will force the outdated thinking to adapt to the technological innovation and over time thinking will change just as it has with the Internet.

« Last Edit: May 01, 2014, 12:23:40 am by luckybit »
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Offline puppies

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Yes, instead of a capitalist market based on competition what about a post-capitalist market based on cooperation created using blockchain technologies?

As I said before the actual Economic theory decoupled itself from nature ( thermodynamic processes) .
Since second world war there have been a constant growth of productivity in the world.
This growth implied also a growth of use of energetic and natural resources.
An economy that doesnt grow is an economy on crisis.
Capitalism is the only system in all our history that needs to growth for continuing existing.





oh sorry , i think i should have started with my definition of capitalism, here we go:

For me capitalism is our actual system based on infinite growth.
Infinite growth is the esence of capitalism and its result from competition.
Competition in the system impose to each capitalist the necessity of growing


Instead of using blockchain technologies for expanding competition , how about using them for expanding cooperation?



I'm all for cooperation.  as long as its the voluntary kind.  I think the idea that capitalism requires constant growth stems from two errors.  First is an inflationary monetary policy, and second is a confusion about what money is.  I would point you to Bastiat's what is money.  It was written in 1849 but still holds true to this day.  Ultimately value is subjective and the issue with capitalism is that it can lead to the erroneous belief that dollars are a measure of value, or that all value can be measured in dollars.  In other words some believe that everything is for sale.

I'm not sure I'm understanding you man. 

I would point further back in time than WWII for a dramatic increase in productivity.  Maybe to the industrial revolution.  Or crop rotation, or even the domestication of animals.  I for one, am very happy to not be enduring the back breaking toil, on the brink of death that has characterized life for the majority of humans that have ever lived. 

When it comes to the use of natural resources, I believe that the biggest problems stem from the lack of protection of private property rights.  Not the opposite.  (not that I am suggesting a mandatory central authority to protect private property rights)

Are you speaking of growth as in an increase in the number next to a ledger balance, or an increase in the use of natural resources. 

Shouldn't we all be constantly attempting to grow our true wealth? (that is our subjective value of the things that meet our wants needs and desires)  Do you think this type of growth is wrong?

Have you ever heard of "I pencil"?
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Offline tipon

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Yes, instead of a capitalist market based on competition what about a post-capitalist market based on cooperation created using blockchain technologies?

As I said before the actual Economic theory decoupled itself from nature ( thermodynamic processes) .
Since second world war there have been a constant growth of productivity in the world.
This growth implied also a growth of use of energetic and natural resources.
An economy that doesnt grow is an economy on crisis.
Capitalism is the only system in all our history that needs to growth for continuing existing.





oh sorry , i think i should have started with my definition of capitalism, here we go:

For me capitalism is our actual system based on infinite growth.
Infinite growth is the esence of capitalism and its result from competition.
Competition in the system impose to each capitalist the necessity of growing


Instead of using blockchain technologies for expanding competition , how about using them for expanding cooperation?



I'm all for cooperation.  as long as its the voluntary kind.  I think the idea that capitalism requires constant growth stems from two errors.  First is an inflationary monetary policy, and second is a confusion about what money is.  I would point you to Bastiat's what is money.  It was written in 1849 but still holds true to this day.  Ultimately value is subjective and the issue with capitalism is that it can lead to the erroneous belief that dollars are a measure of value, or that all value can be measured in dollars.  In other words some believe that everything is for sale.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2014, 11:52:10 pm by tipon »

Offline puppies

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oh sorry , i think i should have started with my definition of capitalism, here we go:

For me capitalism is our actual system based on infinite growth.
Infinite growth is the esence of capitalism and its result from competition.
Competition in the system impose to each capitalist the necessity of growing


Instead of using blockchain technologies for expanding competition , how about using them for expanding cooperation?



I'm all for cooperation.  as long as its the voluntary kind.  I think the idea that capitalism requires constant growth stems from two errors.  First is an inflationary monetary policy, and second is a confusion about what money is.  I would point you to Bastiat's what is money.  It was written in 1849 but still holds true to this day.  Ultimately value is subjective and the issue with capitalism is that it can lead to the erroneous belief that dollars are a measure of value, or that all value can be measured in dollars.  In other words some believe that everything is for sale.

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Offline bytemaster

Free enterprise may be a better option.


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