Author Topic: NXT online wallet  (Read 6035 times)

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Offline santaclause102

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Re: NXT online wallet
« Reply #45 on: June 01, 2014, 11:51:56 pm »
NXT is constantly releasing wallets because their network isn't stable.  It is hard to judge who is a winner by any stretch.

As far as the OP, I do know there are guys who have hashed phrase dictionaries and are waiting on the NXT network.  If a weak wallet appears they will jump in and transfer the NXT out within 1 minute.  It happened to me a few months ago when I made a test wallet with my real full name (Against the warnings of the wallet..).  Within 2 minutes, there was a blockchain transaction removing the money.  Actually I don't recall the timeframe exactly, and it didn't matter,  as I thought it was quite funny and wrote it off as a lesson learned. 

BTW I thought Bitshares was more about creating a DAC toolkit foundation, not trying to make the next cryptocurrency.  It is interesting how the expectations of users vary on here.
I guess you could build DACs using the NXT code as well. But asaik they have a bit a different understanding of DAC: https://nxtforum.org/nxt-improvement-proposals/virtual-corporations-on-nxt/?PHPSESSID=6dq4o5dfi7t1av12usj02t3nu1

hi delulo,

I'm heading off the Virtual Corp project.  The technology was meant to mimic real world corporations.

Not sure if Bitshares DACs have anything to offer over NXT Vcorps, but certainly I'm up to discuss.

-bm

I like the such discussions. For as much as I read this is quite a bit a different understanding.... I'd like to discuss it but I don't have much time the whole week. But I will get back to you....

Offline JoeyD

Re: NXT online wallet
« Reply #46 on: June 02, 2014, 08:44:53 am »
I personally don't use DAC, I call it Virtual Corporations.  Others did apply this term to it, and it still seems to linger but I think at this point the distinctions are fairly clear.  The project is still in it's early stages so we're quickly working these things out.

Seems the primary difference here is that VCorps involve input from people, whereas DACs(in theory) operate automatically.  I still haven't seen any clear examples of how DACs can be used in real-world situations.

Not sure how the Virtual Corporations would have any different legal status than a DAC.  Perhaps you can explain your statement?

-bm
Biggest difference with the announced bitshares DACs (apart from maybe the music one) is that they are completely self-contained. This way the legal issues are circumvented for the moment, because there is no physical connection to the real world. People might be prepared to offer services for or interact with the DAC in trade for stake in or benefit from the use of it, but they are not really employed by or working for the DAC in the usual sense. Doesn't mean that won't happen in the future, but for the near future the DACs aren't physically stepping on toes just yet.

It might very well be that I'm not grasping what your doing with Virtual Corporations, but it sounds a lot like a traditional corporation with employees and management and things like that. I also assume that your corporations are not aimed solely towards products/services entirely inside of the world of the blockchain. If your virtual corporations are not completely virtual and depend on employees, that will most likely lead to legal and government issues. It will in my neck of the woods at least. I wasn't trying to critique your project, but I do think you are taking the monster head on and I don't expect it to just roll over and die. I'm also interested into seeing your solutions and how those might work better or at least are able to compete effectively with traditional centralized corporations.

Personally, and that might just because of my own limitations, I'm not convinced everything works better on the blockchain and I'm a bit worried that a lot of people are engineering spectacular space-pens while not actually looking at practicality and simple solutions first. Might be because of my background and past experiences, that I'm on the skeptical side when looking at things like this. I found that getting people on the same page when they are physically present in the same room can be pretty damn challenging already, but lengthening communication lines added a whole new dimension to that challenge.

Offline bluemeanie1

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Re: NXT online wallet
« Reply #47 on: June 02, 2014, 04:02:06 pm »
I personally don't use DAC, I call it Virtual Corporations.  Others did apply this term to it, and it still seems to linger but I think at this point the distinctions are fairly clear.  The project is still in it's early stages so we're quickly working these things out.

Seems the primary difference here is that VCorps involve input from people, whereas DACs(in theory) operate automatically.  I still haven't seen any clear examples of how DACs can be used in real-world situations.

Not sure how the Virtual Corporations would have any different legal status than a DAC.  Perhaps you can explain your statement?

-bm
Biggest difference with the announced bitshares DACs (apart from maybe the music one) is that they are completely self-contained. This way the legal issues are circumvented for the moment, because there is no physical connection to the real world. People might be prepared to offer services for or interact with the DAC in trade for stake in or benefit from the use of it, but they are not really employed by or working for the DAC in the usual sense. Doesn't mean that won't happen in the future, but for the near future the DACs aren't physically stepping on toes just yet.

they also haven't left the drawing board?  I don't think you've established here or elsewhere that DACs have some sort of inherent legal advantage.  Seems most of these claims are speculative if not mythical.

It might very well be that I'm not grasping what your doing with Virtual Corporations, but it sounds a lot like a traditional corporation with employees and management and things like that. I also assume that your corporations are not aimed solely towards products/services entirely inside of the world of the blockchain. If your virtual corporations are not completely virtual and depend on employees, that will most likely lead to legal and government issues. It will in my neck of the woods at least. I wasn't trying to critique your project, but I do think you are taking the monster head on and I don't expect it to just roll over and die. I'm also interested into seeing your solutions and how those might work better or at least are able to compete effectively with traditional centralized corporations.

It's not clear to me how you can build something valuable out of some inert script on the blockchain?  You don't think that's going to be exploitable?

I ran across this yesterday, I found it hilarious: http://www.beetcoin.com/content/images/2014/Feb/BM_PTS_2.PNG

Personally, and that might just because of my own limitations, I'm not convinced everything works better on the blockchain and I'm a bit worried that a lot of people are engineering spectacular space-pens while not actually looking at practicality and simple solutions first. Might be because of my background and past experiences, that I'm on the skeptical side when looking at things like this. I found that getting people on the same page when they are physically present in the same room can be pretty damn challenging already, but lengthening communication lines added a whole new dimension to that challenge.

seems here you are trying to rebound some criticisms I made elsewhere of some other projects in this space.  There's nothing out-of-touch about VCorps, they offer a very useful tool that is entirely feasible to implement.

Offline toast

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Re: NXT online wallet
« Reply #48 on: June 02, 2014, 05:20:53 pm »
Quote
I don't think you've established here or elsewhere that DACs have some sort of inherent legal advantage.  Seems most of these claims are speculative if not mythical.

Just to be clear, Bitcoin is a DAC by our definition. Would you say your virtual corps and bitcoin are the same type of legal entity?
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Offline bluemeanie1

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Re: NXT online wallet
« Reply #49 on: June 02, 2014, 05:24:50 pm »
Quote
I don't think you've established here or elsewhere that DACs have some sort of inherent legal advantage.  Seems most of these claims are speculative if not mythical.

Just to be clear, Bitcoin is a DAC by our definition. Would you say your virtual corps and bitcoin are the same type of legal entity?

where is your definition stated?

Offline toast

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Re: NXT online wallet
« Reply #50 on: June 02, 2014, 05:59:25 pm »
Quote
I don't think you've established here or elsewhere that DACs have some sort of inherent legal advantage.  Seems most of these claims are speculative if not mythical.

Just to be clear, Bitcoin is a DAC by our definition. Would you say your virtual corps and bitcoin are the same type of legal entity?

where is your definition stated?

Nowhere officially, as far as I know. That's because "DAC" just means "blockchain-based system with shares". So NXT is a DAC too!
We use the term "DAC" to emphasize a metaphor that lets us do economic analysis of such systems. We are absolutely *not* doing anything like building traditional companies.
Do not use this post as information for making any important decisions. The only agreements I ever make are informal and non-binding. Take the same precautions as when dealing with a compromised account, scammer, sockpuppet, etc.

Offline bluemeanie1

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Re: NXT online wallet
« Reply #51 on: June 02, 2014, 06:23:41 pm »
what I tend to see a lot of in these areas are 1) fantastic claims and 2) complete lack of definition, not only on how to accomplish/implement, but even what constitutes the ideas themselves.

So you don't know how to define a DAC, but you pronounce Bitcoin is one[1] and that your ideas are superior, they're 'absolutely not' 'traditional' nor(as someone else claimed) 'centralized'.  For all this talk of DAC we can't even produce a definition!  Materials like the one I linked earlier just further support the theory that this is a lot of hot air.

-bm


[1] and bitcoin is worth several billion dollars, therefore DAC are worth several billion dollars!
« Last Edit: June 02, 2014, 06:25:40 pm by bluemeanie1 »

Offline gamey

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Re: NXT online wallet
« Reply #52 on: June 02, 2014, 06:39:56 pm »


My belief is that DAC means that the distributions/revenue are distributed via rules in the network.  Therefore the word autonomous.  All the business logic is implemented in a custom network that finds consensus over these rules.

To me, NXT using virtual corporations instead of DACs makes a lot more sense, but I have no seen the full scope of the project.
I speak for myself and only myself.

Offline bluemeanie1

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Re: NXT online wallet
« Reply #53 on: June 02, 2014, 06:52:41 pm »


My belief is that DAC means that the distributions/revenue are distributed via rules in the network.  Therefore the word autonomous.  All the business logic is implemented in a custom network that finds consensus over these rules.

To me, NXT using virtual corporations instead of DACs makes a lot more sense, but I have no seen the full scope of the project.

To me the way the term DAC is used shows a lot of ignorance on how corporate value is built in the real world.  It's not 'automatic' it requires quite a bit of thought and work to manage correctly.  Of course we have yet to see any real tangible ideas for DACs emerge, and certainly no real-world examples.

OTOH... :) ...

Virtual Corporations are well grounded in history, as I show HERE and HERE.  This isn't some pied piper routine.

-bm

Offline toast

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Re: NXT online wallet
« Reply #54 on: June 02, 2014, 06:55:52 pm »
Why the hostile tone?

What you're saying is we shouldn't use the word "DAC" and should stick with "altcoin" or whatever. That's fine, it doesn't change the fact that Bitcoin et al are blockchain-based systems with embedded bearer shares that can be analyzed for profitability.
Do not use this post as information for making any important decisions. The only agreements I ever make are informal and non-binding. Take the same precautions as when dealing with a compromised account, scammer, sockpuppet, etc.

Offline bluemeanie1

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Re: NXT online wallet
« Reply #55 on: June 02, 2014, 06:59:44 pm »
I think you're confusing criticism with hostility.

are you against criticism?

-bm

Offline toast

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Re: NXT online wallet
« Reply #56 on: June 02, 2014, 07:02:04 pm »
I think you're confusing criticism with hostility.

are you against criticism?

-bm

Absolutely not, just stuff like "This isn't some pied piper routine" and "support the theory that this is a lot of hot air" comes across as hostile.
Sorry if I misinterpreted.

Anyway, back to this:

Quote
What you're saying is we shouldn't use the word "DAC" and should stick with "altcoin" or whatever. That's fine, it doesn't change the fact that Bitcoin et al are blockchain-based systems with embedded bearer shares that can be analyzed for profitability.

Do you agree or disagree.
Do not use this post as information for making any important decisions. The only agreements I ever make are informal and non-binding. Take the same precautions as when dealing with a compromised account, scammer, sockpuppet, etc.

Offline bluemeanie1

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Re: NXT online wallet
« Reply #57 on: June 02, 2014, 07:08:03 pm »
I think you should define what a DAC is before you start applying this term to things.  I think that's a reasonable request.

-bm

Offline gamey

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Re: NXT online wallet
« Reply #58 on: June 02, 2014, 07:08:56 pm »
I think you're confusing criticism with hostility.

are you against criticism?

-bm

I just showed what my definition of DAC means *to me*.  You then go off on some totally irrelevant tangent about a simple definition showing my ignorance etc.  Your criticism had 0 to do with my definition and does nothing to lead to fruitful discussions.   

IMO your response falls in line with other times I have asked questions with NXT community.  That's just my personal criticism though.  I moved on. chuckle. 

If you want people to answer your questions and they do so sincerely, then you just ad hoc attack... then what is the point in interacting with you ?  Why are so many NXT people like this ?
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Offline bluemeanie1

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Re: NXT online wallet
« Reply #59 on: June 02, 2014, 07:11:02 pm »
despite your claims, NXT has working software:)