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Offline AdamBLevine

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Concerns about AGS donations being reinvested in AGS
« on: June 11, 2014, 03:44:26 AM »

I didn't go looking for trouble on this one, see the emails I recieved below

Quote
Hi, Adam,

I found something about AngelShares that you might be interested in.

These three donations to 1ANGELwQwWxMmbdaSWhWLqBEtPTkWb8uDc (the AGS BTC donation address) are quite suspicious:
https://blockchain.info/tx/60d47ffb496bcff064408b900d53d242e9bbd854cae2b610a1928146aae2d214
https://blockchain.info/tx/22bf12c9c36d042a224cc59b8b23c0df126a2f1b005bb50e1965b7cf72c409e0
https://blockchain.info/tx/31d4c4f06732194126d07972ea71d701b331abd878f2993e41f486506db9483e

You can easily trace the output (https://blockchain.info/tx-index/57931028/0) down to the donation address (1ANGELwQwWxMmbdaSWhWLqBEtPTkWb8uDc) directly:

1JYgevsQREK1DBQKHJBNRYqtWSPmep77pT
|
16UbgMKBmspq7WVDmNrpNAReNe4iZQTjvK
|
17wefmCLyJRwVjBk6HVYZdByGWUsqaHF9v
|
1Dj8CdXFSRf8veWb4hzgiMbae2K2miiMht
|
1PSS7uYA1VEgWFMDtqsMwUa2sxRVF5kGsc
|
1MRanPtASeZUWC44rQHNPmVSgR5M9kZdts
|
1PYicC3TkEZUwuTMPLjSawJqEvLw94RPz6
|
1ANGELwQwWxMmbdaSWhWLqBEtPTkWb8uDc

In a sense, Invictus is donating to AGS using the AGS fund.

I think you're the only one in the BitShares forum that Invictus can't ignore and I wish you could bust them using the information on the blockchain that I provided.

Thank you,
Anonymous

So then I said
Quote
What makes you think it's not one of the contractors they're paying with those funds re-investing since they know better than anyone on the outside that real value is being created?

I've got no problem bringing this up but unless you can tie it to funds that are supposed to be in savings, or that went directly from AGS to being reinvested in AGS with almost no intermediary hops that could represent someone being paid, this seems highly circumstantial.

To which they replied

Quote
Hi, Adam,

It's very unlikely to be one of the contractors re-investing their earnings, since we've seen patterns of 3BTC donations to the AGS everyday. Chances are Invictus is the one behind the daily 3BTC donation trying to dilute our AGS rewards and it might be our only chance to find out the truth.

I can not find any further evidence except row #52 in their fund usage doc noting that those 200BTC are paid to Hyperetas for operations:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AqTwk-e7yzJydDFnQmlkTVlkbWpubnJBbzR2UG5ucnc&usp=sharing#gid=0

But hopefully, it you bring this up, some other guys in the forum could find out.

Thank you,
Anonymous

I don't have time for this so I'll leave it to others to investigate.  If the allegations are accurate I would not be pleased.

Offline toast

Re: Concerns about AGS donations being reinvested in AGS
« Reply #1 on: June 11, 2014, 03:54:43 AM »
Quote
It's very unlikely to be one of the contractors re-investing their earnings, since we've seen patterns of 3BTC donations to the AGS everyday.

I don't follow this logic... The spreadsheet says it is paid to someone, then that someone donated to AGS. Why is the regular pattern suspicious? I'm sure almost every employee and contractor is re-donating at least partially to AGS, likely in regular intervals. Once they get their paycheck it's their personal income and they can do whatever.

For these allegations to mean anything Anonymous would have to show that "Hyperetas" was being paid for more than the work they did, and that they were instructed by I3 to re-donate instead of keeping the money... wtf?

edit: If "hyperetas" is still "within invictus" and might be re-donating without paying outsiders, then you are making allegations of embezzlement and not just dilution.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2014, 03:58:42 AM by toast »
Do not use this post as information for making any important decisions. The only agreements I ever make are informal and non-binding. Take the same precautions as when dealing with a compromised account, scammer, sockpuppet, etc.



Offline donkeypong

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Re: Concerns about AGS donations being reinvested in AGS
« Reply #4 on: June 11, 2014, 04:28:33 AM »
I've certainly noticed the 3BTC donations on an almost daily basis, usually in the 1:00 hour UTC, sometimes a little earlier or later, which would make it around 8 or 9 p.m. on the East Coast. That donor uses different addresses, but it's too much of a pattern not to be the same party. It could be an insider or it could be any individual anywhere in the world. Who knows?

Offline tonyk

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Re: Concerns about AGS donations being reinvested in AGS
« Reply #5 on: June 11, 2014, 04:47:00 AM »
Who is Hypertas, and why were they given 134,000USD worth of bitcoin at current rate?

So the questions really are what I have left from the quote:

Who is Hypertas ?

What are they paid for?

The reinvestment part is really non issue (if payment is legit/reasonable). I have seen a lot of parties, (legitimately) paid, who tend to reinvest part of that pay back in AGS….
Lack of arbitrage is the problem, isn't it. And this 'should' solves it.

Offline liondani

Re: Concerns about AGS donations being reinvested in AGS
« Reply #6 on: June 11, 2014, 08:33:59 AM »
Not to mention that when Hypertas took the "money" 30/5/2014...

Bitcoin price was at $587
Bitshares-PTS price was at 0.0082 BTC = $4.8

Now Bitcoin price is at $640 and
Bitshares-PTS at 0.0066 BTC = $4.22

that means Bitcoins gained +12%
the same time Bitshares-PTS lost -12%
... a 24% gap

don't want to imagine a bear market scenario for bitcoin...

We need good news ASAP Stan, and if possible NOT ONLY NEWS, we need more than that...
  https://bitshares.OPENLEDGER.info/?r=GREECE  | You are in Control | BUY | SELL | SHORT | SWAP | LOAN | TRADE |  

Offline Amazon

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Re: Concerns about AGS donations being reinvested in AGS
« Reply #7 on: June 11, 2014, 01:26:22 PM »
The daily 3BTC donation starts on May 24th and stopped today (I did not check everyday). I think no one get more than 50 BTC from AGS fund per month now, so he is not only investing the BTC he got from AGS, but also his own money. 
Forum Donation: PforumPLfVQXTi4QpQqKwoChXHkoHcxGuA


Offline Gentso1

Re: Concerns about AGS donations being reinvested in AGS
« Reply #9 on: June 11, 2014, 01:45:34 PM »
Who is Hypertas, and why were they given 134,000USD worth of bitcoin at current rate?

So the questions really are what I have left from the quote:

Who is Hypertas ?

What are they paid for?

The reinvestment part is really non issue (if payment is legit/reasonable). I have seen a lot of parties, (legitimately) paid, who tend to reinvest part of that pay back in AGS….

Same questions here,
Who is Hypertas and what were they paid for? What they do with there own money is there business but I believe we are entitled to know why he is being paid.

Offline liondani

Re: Concerns about AGS donations being reinvested in AGS
« Reply #10 on: June 11, 2014, 02:08:29 PM »
It would be great if for such big transactions somebody would inform us about the details before we ask about it...
  https://bitshares.OPENLEDGER.info/?r=GREECE  | You are in Control | BUY | SELL | SHORT | SWAP | LOAN | TRADE |  

Offline Stan

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Re: Concerns about AGS donations being reinvested in AGS
« Reply #11 on: June 11, 2014, 02:24:48 PM »
I love a good mystery!

Now that Invictus 2.0 is up and running in Hong Kong, we had to figure out what to do with Invictus 1.0 in Virginia.  You can read all about this in this thread:


We considered simply shutting it down, but it already had all the bank accounts and payroll automation and accounting books set up and compliant with US regulations.  So we decided to keep the company to handle payroll and other payments in the U.S.

To avoid confusion, we have applied to the State of Virginia for registration to operate the old Invictus 1.0 under the name Hyperetas, Inc.

Hyperetas is an ancient Greek word which literally means "under rower" but in use means "free man who chooses to act as a mere servant."  The job of under rower on a Greek trireme warship was hardly glamorous but it was essential to giving the ship triple power inside a compact length which enabled it to maneuver quickly in order to ram other ships with its metal nose below the water line.



Hyperetas receives its operating budget from the BitShares Trust.   It makes payments in BTC, PTS, USD and soon many others, as specified and documented in a group of public spreadsheets which are checked frequently by bitcountant.com.  One of the services it performs is handling trading on BitStamp, Cryptsy, and Bter and so enough funds are provided in advance to allow Hyperetas to do conversions on these exchanges when market conditions are most favorable.  We try to keep a balance of about $100K in these accounts so that we never have to trade at a bad time in order to make a payment.

As for recycling of AGS, we have said we would not do that.  Period.  We have also said that once we pay employees or vendors for their services, the money is theirs to do with what they please.  It does not surprise us that people working in this industry would want to donate some or all of their earnings to the cause and we have publicly encouraged this from the very beginning.


« Last Edit: June 11, 2014, 03:22:17 PM by Stan »
Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract of any kind.   These are merely my opinions which I reserve the right to change at any time.

Offline bytemaster

Re: Concerns about AGS donations being reinvested in AGS
« Reply #12 on: June 11, 2014, 02:40:55 PM »
I can assure you that we are not taking AGS funds and sending them back to AGS In order to dilute AGS holders. 

That payroll company that you mention Has to sell bitcoin for USD.   Sometimes it finds a large buyer of BTC and does so outside of an exchange.  This large buyer wants to reinvest into AGS. 

So you cannot look at just the bitcoin transaction ledger and infer exactly what is going on. 

We gain nothing by giving AGS funds back to ourselves.   Doing so would decrease the real net income By causing the price to appear higher.

All funds sent to the angel address represent new cash inflows to the project. 

All of that said Even if funds were sent back and diluting the credit given to the other givers it does not defraud anyone. There are no strings attached and the funds are not an investment vehicle they are a donation.    If they were given back the proceeds of the funds would of course be used to grow the industry As I am in not in this just for financial gain.   

All that said I can assure you that we have no interest in giving AGS funds back to the AGS address.

For more specific answers Stan will have to get involved As he is the manager of the payroll company Formerly known as Invictus.





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Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract between myself and anyone else.   These are merely my opinions and I reserve the right to change them at any time.

Offline tonyk

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Re: Concerns about AGS donations being reinvested in AGS
« Reply #13 on: June 11, 2014, 03:14:03 PM »
For more specific answers Stan will have to get involved As he is the manager of the payroll company Formerly known as Invictus.



Right… leave the specific answers to Stan… I have been on this forum for close to 6 m. now. I have not read a specific answer from him.  He can write you a good book with  a lot of metaphors, allegories and even ‘appropriate’ pictures, but if you blink you have missed the important information in some comparison of the DACs shares to golden eggs laid by a Duck hatched by PTS eggs in the previous DAC or Duck. Let him make an important announcement regarding the unmined yet PTS, and how they will be used at the sole discretion of Invictus (or is it Socrates or Hyperetas) for advertising - hidden in a thread named of all things “Rest in Peace, DA”. Ask him where the money went and he will post you a nice picture of ancient Greek ship and will even explain to you the inner workings of the ship and where the name comes from … I hope you catch my drift
Lack of arbitrage is the problem, isn't it. And this 'should' solves it.

Offline toast

Re: Concerns about AGS donations being reinvested in AGS
« Reply #14 on: June 11, 2014, 03:17:39 PM »
For more specific answers Stan will have to get involved As he is the manager of the payroll company Formerly known as Invictus.



Right… leave the specific answers to Stan… I have been on this forum for close to 6 m. now. I have not read a specific answer from him.  He can write you a good book with  a lot of metaphors, allegories and even ‘appropriate’ pictures, but if you blink you have missed the important information in some comparison of the DACs shares to golden eggs laid by a Duck hatched by PTS eggs in the previous DAC or Duck. Let him make an important announcement regarding the unmined yet PTS, and how they will be used at the sole discretion of Invictus (or is it Socrates or Hyperetas) for advertising - hidden in a thread named of all things “Rest in Peace, DA”. Ask him where the money went and he will post you a nice picture of ancient Greek ship and will even explain to you the inner workings of the ship and where the name comes from … I hope you catch my drift

Is this somehow unclear? Should we make tl;dr's in every post?

Quote
Hyperetas receives its operating budget from the BitShares Trust.   It makes payments in BTC, PTS, USD and soon many others, as specified and documented in a group of public spreadsheets which are checked frequently by bitcountant.com.  One of the services it performs is handling trading on BitStamp, Cryptsy, and Bter and so enough funds are provided in advance to allow Hyperetas to do conversions on these exchanges when market conditions are most favorable.  We try to keep a balance of about $100K in these accounts so that we never have to trade at a bad time in order to make a payment.

As for recycling of AGS, we have said we would not do that.  Period.  We have also said that once we pay employees or vendors for their services, the money is theirs to do with what they please.  It does not surprise us that people working in this industry would want to donate some or all of their earnings to the cause and we have publicly encouraged this from the very beginning.
Do not use this post as information for making any important decisions. The only agreements I ever make are informal and non-binding. Take the same precautions as when dealing with a compromised account, scammer, sockpuppet, etc.

 

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