Author Topic: Concerns about AGS donations being reinvested in AGS  (Read 6538 times)

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Offline AdamBLevine

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Concerns about AGS donations being reinvested in AGS
« on: June 11, 2014, 03:44:26 am »
I didn't go looking for trouble on this one, see the emails I recieved below

Quote
Hi, Adam,

I found something about AngelShares that you might be interested in.

These three donations to 1ANGELwQwWxMmbdaSWhWLqBEtPTkWb8uDc (the AGS BTC donation address) are quite suspicious:
https://blockchain.info/tx/60d47ffb496bcff064408b900d53d242e9bbd854cae2b610a1928146aae2d214
https://blockchain.info/tx/22bf12c9c36d042a224cc59b8b23c0df126a2f1b005bb50e1965b7cf72c409e0
https://blockchain.info/tx/31d4c4f06732194126d07972ea71d701b331abd878f2993e41f486506db9483e

You can easily trace the output (https://blockchain.info/tx-index/57931028/0) down to the donation address (1ANGELwQwWxMmbdaSWhWLqBEtPTkWb8uDc) directly:

1JYgevsQREK1DBQKHJBNRYqtWSPmep77pT
|
16UbgMKBmspq7WVDmNrpNAReNe4iZQTjvK
|
17wefmCLyJRwVjBk6HVYZdByGWUsqaHF9v
|
1Dj8CdXFSRf8veWb4hzgiMbae2K2miiMht
|
1PSS7uYA1VEgWFMDtqsMwUa2sxRVF5kGsc
|
1MRanPtASeZUWC44rQHNPmVSgR5M9kZdts
|
1PYicC3TkEZUwuTMPLjSawJqEvLw94RPz6
|
1ANGELwQwWxMmbdaSWhWLqBEtPTkWb8uDc

In a sense, Invictus is donating to AGS using the AGS fund.

I think you're the only one in the BitShares forum that Invictus can't ignore and I wish you could bust them using the information on the blockchain that I provided.

Thank you,
Anonymous

So then I said
Quote
What makes you think it's not one of the contractors they're paying with those funds re-investing since they know better than anyone on the outside that real value is being created?

I've got no problem bringing this up but unless you can tie it to funds that are supposed to be in savings, or that went directly from AGS to being reinvested in AGS with almost no intermediary hops that could represent someone being paid, this seems highly circumstantial.

To which they replied

Quote
Hi, Adam,

It's very unlikely to be one of the contractors re-investing their earnings, since we've seen patterns of 3BTC donations to the AGS everyday. Chances are Invictus is the one behind the daily 3BTC donation trying to dilute our AGS rewards and it might be our only chance to find out the truth.

I can not find any further evidence except row #52 in their fund usage doc noting that those 200BTC are paid to Hyperetas for operations:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AqTwk-e7yzJydDFnQmlkTVlkbWpubnJBbzR2UG5ucnc&usp=sharing#gid=0

But hopefully, it you bring this up, some other guys in the forum could find out.

Thank you,
Anonymous

I don't have time for this so I'll leave it to others to investigate.  If the allegations are accurate I would not be pleased.
Email me at [email protected]

Offline toast

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Re: Concerns about AGS donations being reinvested in AGS
« Reply #1 on: June 11, 2014, 03:54:43 am »
Quote
It's very unlikely to be one of the contractors re-investing their earnings, since we've seen patterns of 3BTC donations to the AGS everyday.

I don't follow this logic... The spreadsheet says it is paid to someone, then that someone donated to AGS. Why is the regular pattern suspicious? I'm sure almost every employee and contractor is re-donating at least partially to AGS, likely in regular intervals. Once they get their paycheck it's their personal income and they can do whatever.

For these allegations to mean anything Anonymous would have to show that "Hyperetas" was being paid for more than the work they did, and that they were instructed by I3 to re-donate instead of keeping the money... wtf?

edit: If "hyperetas" is still "within invictus" and might be re-donating without paying outsiders, then you are making allegations of embezzlement and not just dilution.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2014, 03:58:42 am by toast »
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Offline AdamBLevine

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Re: Concerns about AGS donations being reinvested in AGS
« Reply #2 on: June 11, 2014, 04:11:00 am »
Who is Hypertas, and why were they given 134,000USD worth of bitcoin at current rate?
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Offline AdamBLevine

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Re: Concerns about AGS donations being reinvested in AGS
« Reply #3 on: June 11, 2014, 04:15:44 am »
Who is Hypertas, and why were they given 134,000USD worth of bitcoin at current rate?

Because this person or company is managing payroll by the looks of it.  Not looking like anything problematic so far.
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Offline donkeypong

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Re: Concerns about AGS donations being reinvested in AGS
« Reply #4 on: June 11, 2014, 04:28:33 am »
I've certainly noticed the 3BTC donations on an almost daily basis, usually in the 1:00 hour UTC, sometimes a little earlier or later, which would make it around 8 or 9 p.m. on the East Coast. That donor uses different addresses, but it's too much of a pattern not to be the same party. It could be an insider or it could be any individual anywhere in the world. Who knows?

Offline tonyk

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Re: Concerns about AGS donations being reinvested in AGS
« Reply #5 on: June 11, 2014, 04:47:00 am »
Who is Hypertas, and why were they given 134,000USD worth of bitcoin at current rate?

So the questions really are what I have left from the quote:

Who is Hypertas ?

What are they paid for?

The reinvestment part is really non issue (if payment is legit/reasonable). I have seen a lot of parties, (legitimately) paid, who tend to reinvest part of that pay back in AGS….
Lack of arbitrage is the problem, isn't it. And this 'should' solves it.

Offline liondani

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Re: Concerns about AGS donations being reinvested in AGS
« Reply #6 on: June 11, 2014, 08:33:59 am »
Not to mention that when Hypertas took the "money" 30/5/2014...

Bitcoin price was at $587
Bitshares-PTS price was at 0.0082 BTC = $4.8

Now Bitcoin price is at $640 and
Bitshares-PTS at 0.0066 BTC = $4.22

that means Bitcoins gained +12%
the same time Bitshares-PTS lost -12%
... a 24% gap

don't want to imagine a bear market scenario for bitcoin...

We need good news ASAP Stan, and if possible NOT ONLY NEWS, we need more than that...
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Offline Amazon

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Re: Concerns about AGS donations being reinvested in AGS
« Reply #7 on: June 11, 2014, 01:26:22 pm »
The daily 3BTC donation starts on May 24th and stopped today (I did not check everyday). I think no one get more than 50 BTC from AGS fund per month now, so he is not only investing the BTC he got from AGS, but also his own money. 
Forum Donation: PforumPLfVQXTi4QpQqKwoChXHkoHcxGuA

Offline AdamBLevine

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Re: Concerns about AGS donations being reinvested in AGS
« Reply #8 on: June 11, 2014, 01:41:51 pm »
An official statement would be great.
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Offline Gentso1

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Re: Concerns about AGS donations being reinvested in AGS
« Reply #9 on: June 11, 2014, 01:45:34 pm »
Who is Hypertas, and why were they given 134,000USD worth of bitcoin at current rate?

So the questions really are what I have left from the quote:

Who is Hypertas ?

What are they paid for?

The reinvestment part is really non issue (if payment is legit/reasonable). I have seen a lot of parties, (legitimately) paid, who tend to reinvest part of that pay back in AGS….

Same questions here,
Who is Hypertas and what were they paid for? What they do with there own money is there business but I believe we are entitled to know why he is being paid.

Offline liondani

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Re: Concerns about AGS donations being reinvested in AGS
« Reply #10 on: June 11, 2014, 02:08:29 pm »
It would be great if for such big transactions somebody would inform us about the details before we ask about it...
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Offline Stan

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Re: Concerns about AGS donations being reinvested in AGS
« Reply #11 on: June 11, 2014, 02:24:48 pm »
I love a good mystery!

Now that Invictus 2.0 is up and running in Hong Kong, we had to figure out what to do with Invictus 1.0 in Virginia.  You can read all about this in this thread:


We considered simply shutting it down, but it already had all the bank accounts and payroll automation and accounting books set up and compliant with US regulations.  So we decided to keep the company to handle payroll and other payments in the U.S.

To avoid confusion, we have applied to the State of Virginia for registration to operate the old Invictus 1.0 under the name Hyperetas, Inc.

Hyperetas is an ancient Greek word which literally means "under rower" but in use means "free man who chooses to act as a mere servant."  The job of under rower on a Greek trireme warship was hardly glamorous but it was essential to giving the ship triple power inside a compact length which enabled it to maneuver quickly in order to ram other ships with its metal nose below the water line.



Hyperetas receives its operating budget from the BitShares Trust.   It makes payments in BTC, PTS, USD and soon many others, as specified and documented in a group of public spreadsheets which are checked frequently by bitcountant.com.  One of the services it performs is handling trading on BitStamp, Cryptsy, and Bter and so enough funds are provided in advance to allow Hyperetas to do conversions on these exchanges when market conditions are most favorable.  We try to keep a balance of about $100K in these accounts so that we never have to trade at a bad time in order to make a payment.

As for recycling of AGS, we have said we would not do that.  Period.  We have also said that once we pay employees or vendors for their services, the money is theirs to do with what they please.  It does not surprise us that people working in this industry would want to donate some or all of their earnings to the cause and we have publicly encouraged this from the very beginning.


« Last Edit: June 11, 2014, 03:22:17 pm by Stan »
Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract of any kind.   These are merely my opinions which I reserve the right to change at any time.

Offline bytemaster

Re: Concerns about AGS donations being reinvested in AGS
« Reply #12 on: June 11, 2014, 02:40:55 pm »
I can assure you that we are not taking AGS funds and sending them back to AGS In order to dilute AGS holders. 

That payroll company that you mention Has to sell bitcoin for USD.   Sometimes it finds a large buyer of BTC and does so outside of an exchange.  This large buyer wants to reinvest into AGS. 

So you cannot look at just the bitcoin transaction ledger and infer exactly what is going on. 

We gain nothing by giving AGS funds back to ourselves.   Doing so would decrease the real net income By causing the price to appear higher.

All funds sent to the angel address represent new cash inflows to the project. 

All of that said Even if funds were sent back and diluting the credit given to the other givers it does not defraud anyone. There are no strings attached and the funds are not an investment vehicle they are a donation.    If they were given back the proceeds of the funds would of course be used to grow the industry As I am in not in this just for financial gain.   

All that said I can assure you that we have no interest in giving AGS funds back to the AGS address.

For more specific answers Stan will have to get involved As he is the manager of the payroll company Formerly known as Invictus.





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Offline tonyk

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Re: Concerns about AGS donations being reinvested in AGS
« Reply #13 on: June 11, 2014, 03:14:03 pm »
For more specific answers Stan will have to get involved As he is the manager of the payroll company Formerly known as Invictus.



Right… leave the specific answers to Stan… I have been on this forum for close to 6 m. now. I have not read a specific answer from him.  He can write you a good book with  a lot of metaphors, allegories and even ‘appropriate’ pictures, but if you blink you have missed the important information in some comparison of the DACs shares to golden eggs laid by a Duck hatched by PTS eggs in the previous DAC or Duck. Let him make an important announcement regarding the unmined yet PTS, and how they will be used at the sole discretion of Invictus (or is it Socrates or Hyperetas) for advertising - hidden in a thread named of all things “Rest in Peace, DA”. Ask him where the money went and he will post you a nice picture of ancient Greek ship and will even explain to you the inner workings of the ship and where the name comes from … I hope you catch my drift
Lack of arbitrage is the problem, isn't it. And this 'should' solves it.

Offline toast

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Re: Concerns about AGS donations being reinvested in AGS
« Reply #14 on: June 11, 2014, 03:17:39 pm »
For more specific answers Stan will have to get involved As he is the manager of the payroll company Formerly known as Invictus.



Right… leave the specific answers to Stan… I have been on this forum for close to 6 m. now. I have not read a specific answer from him.  He can write you a good book with  a lot of metaphors, allegories and even ‘appropriate’ pictures, but if you blink you have missed the important information in some comparison of the DACs shares to golden eggs laid by a Duck hatched by PTS eggs in the previous DAC or Duck. Let him make an important announcement regarding the unmined yet PTS, and how they will be used at the sole discretion of Invictus (or is it Socrates or Hyperetas) for advertising - hidden in a thread named of all things “Rest in Peace, DA”. Ask him where the money went and he will post you a nice picture of ancient Greek ship and will even explain to you the inner workings of the ship and where the name comes from … I hope you catch my drift

Is this somehow unclear? Should we make tl;dr's in every post?

Quote
Hyperetas receives its operating budget from the BitShares Trust.   It makes payments in BTC, PTS, USD and soon many others, as specified and documented in a group of public spreadsheets which are checked frequently by bitcountant.com.  One of the services it performs is handling trading on BitStamp, Cryptsy, and Bter and so enough funds are provided in advance to allow Hyperetas to do conversions on these exchanges when market conditions are most favorable.  We try to keep a balance of about $100K in these accounts so that we never have to trade at a bad time in order to make a payment.

As for recycling of AGS, we have said we would not do that.  Period.  We have also said that once we pay employees or vendors for their services, the money is theirs to do with what they please.  It does not surprise us that people working in this industry would want to donate some or all of their earnings to the cause and we have publicly encouraged this from the very beginning.
Do not use this post as information for making any important decisions. The only agreements I ever make are informal and non-binding. Take the same precautions as when dealing with a compromised account, scammer, sockpuppet, etc.

Offline bytemaster

Re: Concerns about AGS donations being reinvested in AGS
« Reply #15 on: June 11, 2014, 03:20:03 pm »
For more specific answers Stan will have to get involved As he is the manager of the payroll company Formerly known as Invictus.



Right… leave the specific answers to Stan… I have been on this forum for close to 6 m. now. I have not read a specific answer from him.  He can write you a good book with  a lot of metaphors, allegories and even ‘appropriate’ pictures, but if you blink you have missed the important information in some comparison of the DACs shares to golden eggs laid by a Duck hatched by PTS eggs in the previous DAC or Duck. Let him make an important announcement regarding the unmined yet PTS, and how they will be used at the sole discretion of Invictus (or is it Socrates or Hyperetas) for advertising - hidden in a thread named of all things “Rest in Peace, DA”. Ask him where the money went and he will post you a nice picture of ancient Greek ship and will even explain to you the inner workings of the ship and where the name comes from … I hope you catch my drift

He does have a way with words. 
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Offline tonyk

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Re: Concerns about AGS donations being reinvested in AGS
« Reply #16 on: June 11, 2014, 03:36:30 pm »
For more specific answers Stan will have to get involved As he is the manager of the payroll company Formerly known as Invictus.



Right… leave the specific answers to Stan… I have been on this forum for close to 6 m. now. I have not read a specific answer from him.  He can write you a good book with  a lot of metaphors, allegories and even ‘appropriate’ pictures, but if you blink you have missed the important information in some comparison of the DACs shares to golden eggs laid by a Duck hatched by PTS eggs in the previous DAC or Duck. Let him make an important announcement regarding the unmined yet PTS, and how they will be used at the sole discretion of Invictus (or is it Socrates or Hyperetas) for advertising - hidden in a thread named of all things “Rest in Peace, DA”. Ask him where the money went and he will post you a nice picture of ancient Greek ship and will even explain to you the inner workings of the ship and where the name comes from … I hope you catch my drift

Is this somehow unclear? Should we make tl;dr's in every post?

Quote
Hyperetas receives its operating budget from the BitShares Trust.   It makes payments in BTC, PTS, USD and soon many others, as specified and documented in a group of public spreadsheets which are checked frequently by bitcountant.com.  One of the services it performs is handling trading on BitStamp, Cryptsy, and Bter and so enough funds are provided in advance to allow Hyperetas to do conversions on these exchanges when market conditions are most favorable.  We try to keep a balance of about $100K in these accounts so that we never have to trade at a bad time in order to make a payment.

As for recycling of AGS, we have said we would not do that.  Period.  We have also said that once we pay employees or vendors for their services, the money is theirs to do with what they please.  It does not surprise us that people working in this industry would want to donate some or all of their earnings to the cause and we have publicly encouraged this from the very beginning.

No everything is clear - the money were used to build replica of an ancient Greek ship.  Correct?
Lack of arbitrage is the problem, isn't it. And this 'should' solves it.

Offline toast

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Re: Concerns about AGS donations being reinvested in AGS
« Reply #17 on: June 11, 2014, 03:37:12 pm »
Quote
Hyperetas receives its operating budget from the BitShares Trust.   It makes payments in BTC, PTS, USD and soon many others, as specified and documented in a group of public spreadsheets which are checked frequently by bitcountant.com.  One of the services it performs is handling trading on BitStamp, Cryptsy, and Bter and so enough funds are provided in advance to allow Hyperetas to do conversions on these exchanges when market conditions are most favorable.  We try to keep a balance of about $100K in these accounts so that we never have to trade at a bad time in order to make a payment.

As for recycling of AGS, we have said we would not do that.  Period.  We have also said that once we pay employees or vendors for their services, the money is theirs to do with what they please.  It does not surprise us that people working in this industry would want to donate some or all of their earnings to the cause and we have publicly encouraged this from the very beginning.
Do not use this post as information for making any important decisions. The only agreements I ever make are informal and non-binding. Take the same precautions as when dealing with a compromised account, scammer, sockpuppet, etc.

Offline tonyk

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Re: Concerns about AGS donations being reinvested in AGS
« Reply #18 on: June 11, 2014, 03:45:16 pm »
Good, I knew where the money come FROM already, I am just concern what happened to the SHIP....





« Last Edit: June 11, 2014, 05:37:36 pm by tonyk »
Lack of arbitrage is the problem, isn't it. And this 'should' solves it.

Offline toast

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Re: Concerns about AGS donations being reinvested in AGS
« Reply #19 on: June 11, 2014, 03:54:50 pm »
$100k held as buffer month-to-month, the rest paid to employees.
Or did you mean you want to know our individual salaries as well?
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Offline liondani

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Re: Concerns about AGS donations being reinvested in AGS
« Reply #20 on: June 11, 2014, 03:57:46 pm »
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Offline Stan

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Re: Concerns about AGS donations being reinvested in AGS
« Reply #21 on: June 11, 2014, 04:01:54 pm »

Good, I knew where the money come FROM already, I am just concern what happened to the SHIP....


I'm tempted to use this as an invitation to wax entheusiastic about the merits of the trireme and its tactics of employment.  But alas, there's already a great article about them here:

Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract of any kind.   These are merely my opinions which I reserve the right to change at any time.

Offline tonyk

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Re: Concerns about AGS donations being reinvested in AGS
« Reply #22 on: June 11, 2014, 04:06:40 pm »
$100k held as buffer month-to-month, the rest paid to employees.
Or did you mean you want to know our individual salaries as well?

I thought you do not work for Invictus and/or the new boat...
 And I am surprised with the furious attack on me, when the explanation was FAR from straight and simple…
The 1 sentence quoted above would have been much better answer to start with-"$100k held as buffer month-to-month, the rest paid to employees."
« Last Edit: June 11, 2014, 04:15:27 pm by tonyk »
Lack of arbitrage is the problem, isn't it. And this 'should' solves it.

Offline liondani

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Re: Concerns about AGS donations being reinvested in AGS
« Reply #23 on: June 11, 2014, 04:09:18 pm »
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Offline toast

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Re: Concerns about AGS donations being reinvested in AGS
« Reply #24 on: June 11, 2014, 04:14:38 pm »
$100k held as buffer month-to-month, the rest paid to employees.
Or did you mean you want to know our individual salaries as well?

I thought you do not work for Invictus and/or the new boat...
 And I am surprised with the furious attack on me, when the explanation was FAR from straight and simple…

I said I was not an invictus (hyperetas?) employee, I am an independent DAC developer who is paid by I3.
In this context it seems like a technicality, I had said that in response to Adam's concern that I3 was not sponsoring enough independent efforts in this space.

I wouldn't call it furious, just annoyed - you seem to get it now that I copy/pasted shorter and shorter versions of the original explanation, right?
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Offline tonyk

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Re: Concerns about AGS donations being reinvested in AGS
« Reply #25 on: June 11, 2014, 04:17:31 pm »
 "just annoyed - you seem to get it now that I copy/pasted shorter and shorter versions of the original explanation, right?"

Right!
 Next time you or BT start with an answer like that on first place!



I am also annoyed to no end to be lectured Homer / Shakespeare style on the history of shipbuilding when I look for a one sentence answer to a business issue…
« Last Edit: June 11, 2014, 04:25:09 pm by tonyk »
Lack of arbitrage is the problem, isn't it. And this 'should' solves it.

Offline liondani

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Re: Concerns about AGS donations being reinvested in AGS
« Reply #26 on: June 11, 2014, 04:43:24 pm »
Hope I read this historical post's in the future ... from the moon!

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Offline tonyk

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Re: Concerns about AGS donations being reinvested in AGS
« Reply #27 on: June 11, 2014, 05:10:11 pm »
Or did you mean you want to know our individual salaries as well?

Total # of fulltime/part-time/ developers and #contractor developers + total $ amount, would be nice…
Lack of arbitrage is the problem, isn't it. And this 'should' solves it.

Offline CLains

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Re: Concerns about AGS donations being reinvested in AGS
« Reply #28 on: June 11, 2014, 05:19:44 pm »
Lol! This is all hilarious.  :D

But tonyk is right that announcements need accurate titles, and that the "wonderful style 3000" must be tempered by the required minimalism of busy folk.

There seems to be big shifts going on and it is difficult to understand what the business model is and what future plans the donations enter into.

That being said, I think everyone just wants a solid product on a firm time table and a snapshot announced - these other concerns are just

distraction fidgeting filling the angst-vacuum.

Offline Amazon

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Re: Concerns about AGS donations being reinvested in AGS
« Reply #29 on: June 11, 2014, 05:29:21 pm »
Total # of fulltime/part-time/ developers and #contractor developers + total $ amount, would be nice…

You can find the list of fulltime dev in another post from BM:


Right now funds are being allocated to the following developers:
Eric Frias (C++)
Dan Notestein (C++)
Toast
Hackfisher
Nikita (web)
Vikram (C++)
Me
Arlen
Brian
Nathan
Syncad (Polish+Indian Devs/Testers)

On the operations side:
Pam (books), Stan, Arlen, Brian + Accountant + Legal Consulting + Travel

So we have about 17 full time individuals and many part-timers and misc expenses.     If you divide up the AGS funds among those people you see that we are operating with less than a 12 month runway (PTS funds are not liquid).  So if  you would like us to fund other parties then it will have to come at the expense of some of these individuals having job security for a minimum of 6 months. 
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Offline AdamBLevine

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Re: Concerns about AGS donations being reinvested in AGS
« Reply #30 on: June 11, 2014, 06:19:25 pm »
So it seems like there is a plausible solution here and we basically have no way to verify it without asking the person to come forward who has been making the donation, which would tell us a lot more.

I definitely agree with others that Stans fortune cookie responses are very frustrating as the primary, official response one can hope for.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2014, 06:40:25 pm by AdamBLevine »
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Offline Stan

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Re: Concerns about AGS donations being reinvested in AGS
« Reply #31 on: June 11, 2014, 07:46:52 pm »
Every word that I labor to write is placed where it is for a specific reason.

I do not expect all such words to be equally useful to every reader.

But all words are there because I specifically wish to communicate something to someone.

He who has ears to hear, let him hear.

 :)
« Last Edit: June 11, 2014, 07:55:26 pm by Stan »
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Offline tonyk

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Re: Concerns about AGS donations being reinvested in AGS
« Reply #32 on: June 11, 2014, 08:30:29 pm »
У меня есть новости для вас, о тех голосов в вашей голове, это не бог говорит с вами
Lack of arbitrage is the problem, isn't it. And this 'should' solves it.

Offline cass

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Re: Concerns about AGS donations being reinvested in AGS
« Reply #33 on: June 11, 2014, 10:04:16 pm »
У меня есть новости для вас, о тех голосов в вашей голове, это не бог говорит с вами

english please
█║▌║║█  - - -  The quieter you become, the more you are able to hear  - - -  █║▌║║█

Offline tonyk

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Re: Concerns about AGS donations being reinvested in AGS
« Reply #34 on: June 11, 2014, 10:11:38 pm »
У меня есть новости для вас, о тех голосов в вашей голове, это не бог говорит с вами

english please

Every word that I labor to write is placed where it is for a specific reason.

I do not expect all such words to be equally useful to every reader.

But all words are there because I specifically wish to communicate something to someone.

He who has ears to hear, let him hear.
Lack of arbitrage is the problem, isn't it. And this 'should' solves it.

Offline cass

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Re: Concerns about AGS donations being reinvested in AGS
« Reply #35 on: June 11, 2014, 10:15:01 pm »
У меня есть новости для вас, о тех голосов в вашей голове, это не бог говорит с вами

english please

Every word that I labor to write is placed where it is for a specific reason.

I do not expect all such words to be equally useful to every reader.

But all words are there because I specifically wish to communicate something to someone.

He who has ears to hear, let him hear.


Wow, na gut wenn Ihr meint so kommunizieren zu müssen, dann macht das, aber dann bitte ohne mich!
Ist ehrlich gesagt nicht wirklich konstruktiv so zu handeln. Naja ... klinke mich dann hier mal aus ... viel Spass und weiter so ... keine Zeit dafür


I am also annoyed to no end to be lectured Homer / Shakespeare style on the history of shipbuilding when I look for a one sentence answer to a business issue…

agreed




« Last Edit: June 11, 2014, 10:20:29 pm by cass »
█║▌║║█  - - -  The quieter you become, the more you are able to hear  - - -  █║▌║║█

Offline tonyk

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Re: Concerns about AGS donations being reinvested in AGS
« Reply #36 on: June 11, 2014, 10:18:53 pm »
У меня есть новости для вас, о тех голосов в вашей голове, это не бог говорит с вами

english please

Every word that I labor to write is placed where it is for a specific reason.

I do not expect all such words to be equally useful to every reader.

But all words are there because I specifically wish to communicate something to someone.

He who has ears to hear, let him hear.


Wow, na gut wenn Ihr meint so kommunizieren zu müssen, dann macht das, aber dann bitte ohne mich!
Ist ehrlich gesagt nicht wirklich konstruktiv so zu handeln. Naja ... klinke mich dann hier mal aus ... viel Spass und weiter so ... keine Zeit dafür


I am also annoyed to no end to be lectured Homer / Shakespeare style on the history of shipbuilding when I look for a one sentence answer to a business issue…

agreed

Why only some of us need to act in constructive way? And + I consider this constructive criticism…
Lack of arbitrage is the problem, isn't it. And this 'should' solves it.

Offline cass

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Re: Concerns about AGS donations being reinvested in AGS
« Reply #37 on: June 11, 2014, 10:25:08 pm »
У меня есть новости для вас, о тех голосов в вашей голове, это не бог говорит с вами

english please

Every word that I labor to write is placed where it is for a specific reason.

I do not expect all such words to be equally useful to every reader.

But all words are there because I specifically wish to communicate something to someone.

He who has ears to hear, let him hear.


Wow, na gut wenn Ihr meint so kommunizieren zu müssen, dann macht das, aber dann bitte ohne mich!
Ist ehrlich gesagt nicht wirklich konstruktiv so zu handeln. Naja ... klinke mich dann hier mal aus ... viel Spass und weiter so ... keine Zeit dafür


I am also annoyed to no end to be lectured Homer / Shakespeare style on the history of shipbuilding when I look for a one sentence answer to a business issue…

agreed

Why only some of us need to act in constructive way? And + I consider this constructive criticism…

i didn't say this to just one partie here...
« Last Edit: June 11, 2014, 10:29:55 pm by cass »
█║▌║║█  - - -  The quieter you become, the more you are able to hear  - - -  █║▌║║█

Offline NewMine

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Re: Concerns about AGS donations being reinvested in AGS
« Reply #38 on: June 14, 2014, 05:16:09 am »
Did I read this right?

Hyperatas is a payroll company liquidating AGS BTC donations through someone, not an exchange, who is turning around and donating them back to AGS?

Offline toast

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Re: Concerns about AGS donations being reinvested in AGS
« Reply #39 on: June 14, 2014, 07:15:45 am »
Did I read this right?

Hyperatas is a payroll company liquidating AGS BTC donations through someone, not an exchange, who is turning around and donating them back to AGS?

Right, except the "turning around and donating them back" happens after the "paid out of BTS trust" happens - in other words, employees (and subcontractors and bountees) are re-investing their *personal* income.

edit: actually I think "liquidating" might not be the right word to describe "trading BTC for labor", so answer in that case would be "no"
« Last Edit: June 14, 2014, 07:20:15 am by toast »
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Offline liondani

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Re: Concerns about AGS donations being reinvested in AGS
« Reply #40 on: June 14, 2014, 01:21:10 pm »
Did I read this right?

Hyperatas is a payroll company liquidating AGS BTC donations through someone, not an exchange, who is turning around and donating them back to AGS?

Right, except the "turning around and donating them back" happens after the "paid out of BTS trust" happens - in other words, employees (and subcontractors and bountees) are re-investing their *personal* income.

edit: actually I think "liquidating" might not be the right word to describe "trading BTC for labor", so answer in that case would be "no"

+ they believe in bitshares succes (and have a martingale-like strategy in action)
- they don't give us the same oportunity ...
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Offline toast

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Re: Concerns about AGS donations being reinvested in AGS
« Reply #41 on: June 14, 2014, 06:01:11 pm »
Quote
- they don't give us the same oportunity ...

What does this mean? We're not getting any advantage, we are all investing personal income. You mean BTS trust should pay you also?
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Offline AdamBLevine

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Re: Concerns about AGS donations being reinvested in AGS
« Reply #42 on: June 14, 2014, 06:21:30 pm »
Quote
- they don't give us the same oportunity ...

What does this mean? We're not getting any advantage, we are all investing personal income. You mean BTS trust should pay you also?

Well, employment payments deals and negotiations are non-public, so we have no way of knowing there isn't a contractual obligation to devote some % of pay above the real salary to cycling funds back through.  If you want people to be vested in your ecosystem in a way where they can't leave, Angelshares do that well.   

I'm not suggesting this is being done, but that it's a plausible explanation for the rather heavy re-investment.  That person is mostly competing against themselves, which is not an entirely rational strategy.
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Offline bytemaster

Re: Concerns about AGS donations being reinvested in AGS
« Reply #43 on: June 14, 2014, 06:32:49 pm »
Quote
- they don't give us the same oportunity ...

What does this mean? We're not getting any advantage, we are all investing personal income. You mean BTS trust should pay you also?

Well, employment payments deals and negotiations are non-public, so we have no way of knowing there isn't a contractual obligation to devote some % of pay above the real salary to cycling funds back through.  If you want people to be vested in your ecosystem in a way where they can't leave, Angelshares do that well.   

I'm not suggesting this is being done, but that it's a plausible explanation for the rather heavy re-investment.  That person is mostly competing against themselves, which is not an entirely rational strategy.

We have no contractual obligations regarding AGS recycling. 

I do know that Dan N, Arlen and Brian and supporting AGS.     
 
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Offline jae208

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Re: Concerns about AGS donations being reinvested in AGS
« Reply #44 on: June 14, 2014, 08:04:10 pm »
Who is Hypertas, and why were they given 134,000USD worth of bitcoin at current rate?

Because this person or company is managing payroll by the looks of it.  Not looking like anything problematic so far.

A few weeks after the coin desk article that first mentioned BitShares back in August I remember I visited an old I3 website where they had the names of some of their employee's names and roles listed. The person in charge of accounting was a woman and she was a Larimer. Can'the remember her first name though. That page might be listed on archive.org idk. I actually did take a screen shot of the page but I don't remember where I put.

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Offline liondani

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Re: Concerns about AGS donations being reinvested in AGS
« Reply #45 on: June 14, 2014, 09:23:06 pm »
Quote
- they don't give us the same oportunity ...

What does this mean? We're not getting any advantage, we are all investing personal income. You mean BTS trust should pay you also?

Well, employment payments deals and negotiations are non-public, so we have no way of knowing there isn't a contractual obligation to devote some % of pay above the real salary to cycling funds back through.  If you want people to be vested in your ecosystem in a way where they can't leave, Angelshares do that well.   

I'm not suggesting this is being done, but that it's a plausible explanation for the rather heavy re-investment.  That person is mostly competing against themselves, which is not an entirely rational strategy.

We have no contractual obligations regarding AGS recycling. 

I do know that Dan N, Arlen and Brian and supporting AGS.   

That's good to know, hope that's the fact with all involved in the project...

PS toast everything is ok, I totaly misunderstood the "liquidity-thing-theory" about AGS's only for I3 employees...   ::) :P
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Offline CLains

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Re: Concerns about AGS donations being reinvested in AGS
« Reply #46 on: June 14, 2014, 09:30:22 pm »
Even when new evidence refutes a hypothesis, we often keep the feelings associated with the initial hypothesis, leading to rationalization of new evidence to fit a similar hypothesis.

Offline gamey

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Re: Concerns about AGS donations being reinvested in AGS
« Reply #47 on: June 14, 2014, 09:37:03 pm »
Even when new evidence refutes a hypothesis, we often keep the feelings associated with the initial hypothesis, leading to rationalization of new evidence to fit a similar hypothesis.

Cognitive biases are a *****.

(I don't have a way with words..)
I speak for myself and only myself.

Offline tonyk

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Re: Concerns about AGS donations being reinvested in AGS
« Reply #48 on: June 14, 2014, 10:04:56 pm »
Cognitive biases are a *****.

(I don't have a way with words..)

Never let the Facts stay on the way of a good conspiracy!

???
Lack of arbitrage is the problem, isn't it. And this 'should' solves it.

Offline tonyk

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Re: Concerns about AGS donations being reinvested in AGS
« Reply #49 on: June 14, 2014, 10:12:38 pm »
Let me get the facts straight though:

Whatever small tips I personally have received from the AGS fund I have reinvested back in AGS. So for me this whole topic is total non-issue because I know the logic why people do it without being ask/obligated.Granted I do it with just some change and not my main/complimentary income but the logic is similar and clear to me.
But this is done by me - one of the people that most actively/aggressively (and probably most often) is voicing his disapproval regarding all kind of Invictus decisions, behavior and suggestions.

On a semi-side note: If anything it is positive sign that people that are a step or two closer to the company's kitchen have similar behavior i.e. continue believing that the project will work and try to get bigger stake in the future DAC’s
« Last Edit: June 14, 2014, 11:33:16 pm by tonyk »
Lack of arbitrage is the problem, isn't it. And this 'should' solves it.

Offline bytemaster

Re: Concerns about AGS donations being reinvested in AGS
« Reply #50 on: June 14, 2014, 11:28:44 pm »
I have asked Stan, Brian, and Arlen to work extra hard to clear up this and provide increased transparency on when, how, what, and why funds are being used for.    If they live up to my vision for it then you all will be very happy. 

If not I will hammer them until I get want I want to see....   just trying to avoid getting side tracked by these kinds of issues so I can focus on release.
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Offline CLains

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Re: Concerns about AGS donations being reinvested in AGS
« Reply #51 on: June 15, 2014, 12:39:25 am »
If not I will hammer them until I get what I want to see....

--------------------------------
Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract between myself and anyone else.   
These are merely my opinions and I reserve the right to change them at any time.


lolled. +5% +5%



<3
« Last Edit: June 15, 2014, 02:24:27 am by CLains »

Offline tonyk

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Re: Concerns about AGS donations being reinvested in AGS
« Reply #52 on: June 15, 2014, 12:42:46 am »

Sorry, I think it is funnier with well-chosen part of the signature:


If not I will hammer them until I get what I want to see....



<3


------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent....These are merely my opinions and I reserve the right to change them at any time.

« Last Edit: June 15, 2014, 12:49:17 am by tonyk »
Lack of arbitrage is the problem, isn't it. And this 'should' solves it.

Offline CLains

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Re: Concerns about AGS donations being reinvested in AGS
« Reply #53 on: June 15, 2014, 02:24:51 am »
Excellent. edited :D

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Re: Concerns about AGS donations being reinvested in AGS
« Reply #54 on: June 15, 2014, 09:17:33 am »
If not I will hammer them until I get what I want to see....

--------------------------------
Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract between myself and anyone else.   
These are merely my opinions and I reserve the right to change them at any time.


lolled. +5% +5%



<3

 +5% for the meme. that belongs in your meme thread clains I lol'd my ass off.

Offline shemnon

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Re: Concerns about AGS donations being reinvested in AGS
« Reply #55 on: August 20, 2014, 07:14:26 pm »
Here's some blockchain analysis I did:

http://blog.cryptocrumb.com/2014/08/reinvestment-of-crowdsale-donations.html

TL;DR - Stan, Synapticad, Cason, and an unnamed "admin retainer" reinvested over 20 BTC of their compensation.

Offline toast

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Re: Concerns about AGS donations being reinvested in AGS
« Reply #56 on: August 20, 2014, 07:25:40 pm »
Here's some blockchain analysis I did:



TL;DR - Stan, Synapticad, Cason, and an unnamed "admin retainer" reinvested over 20 BTC of their compensation.

seems perfectly reasonable...
You realize these are personal salaries and not funds still held in the trust as AGS donations, right?  Do you expect employees not to reinvest?

edit:  Ah, after a readthrough I see that you are not making such accusations. My bad, good analysis.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2014, 07:28:00 pm by toast »
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Offline cass

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Re: Concerns about AGS donations being reinvested in AGS
« Reply #57 on: August 20, 2014, 08:37:38 pm »
wow respect for this analysis :) great work
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Offline donkeypong

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Re: Concerns about AGS donations being reinvested in AGS
« Reply #58 on: August 20, 2014, 11:44:32 pm »
These are honorable people. They've had hundreds of opportunities to rip us off. Instead, they have been frugal and transparent. Thanks for confirming again that our respect is well placed.

Offline Gentso1

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Re: Concerns about AGS donations being reinvested in AGS
« Reply #59 on: August 21, 2014, 02:30:18 am »

and you know what, I believe it +5%

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