Author Topic: Number of Bitshares X at launch  (Read 15204 times)

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Offline tonyk

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Re: Number of Bitshares X at launch
« Reply #15 on: June 22, 2014, 04:30:23 pm »
Very interesting!

Here is a true story (If you do not believe it I would not blame you cause I believe the story only because I know the guy; let’s cam him Tim)


So Tim is answering the phone at a pizza place:
Lady customer: “ I am having a party, I would like to know how many people one large pizza feeds?”
Tim: “ 3 to 4.”
Lady customer: “How about if you cut the pizza in squares?”
« Last Edit: June 23, 2014, 01:01:27 am by tonyk »
Lack of arbitrage is the problem, isn't it. And this 'should' solves it.

Offline sfinder

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Re: Number of Bitshares X at launch
« Reply #16 on: June 22, 2014, 04:57:02 pm »
LOL.

partially agree with u but working out a good strategy will increase user acceptance

I vote this as one of the top 3 most useless topics ever! (15 post in the topic min.)

Here is a true story (If you do not believe it I would not blame you cause I believe the story only because I know the guy; let’s cam him Tim)


So Tim is answering the phone at a pizza place:
Lady customer: “ I am having a party, I would like to know how many people one large pizza feeds?”
Tim: “ 3 to 4.”
Lady customer: “How about if you cut the pizza in squares?”
微博:星在飘我在找|BTS X 受托人delegate ID:baidu
中国教育书店合作将20%收入捐献给贫困山区学生。
Cooperating with China Education Bookstore and will donate 20% of delegate income to the poor students

Offline liondani

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Re: Number of Bitshares X at launch
« Reply #17 on: June 22, 2014, 05:27:23 pm »
I vote this as one of the top 3 most useless topics ever! (15 post in the topic min.)

Here is a true story (If you do not believe it I would not blame you cause I believe the story only because I know the guy; let’s cam him Tim)


So Tim is answering the phone at a pizza place:
Lady customer: “ I am having a party, I would like to know how many people one large pizza feeds?”
Tim: “ 3 to 4.”
Lady customer: “How about if you cut the pizza in squares?”

theoretical it didn't matter how much coins will came out...
practical it will.

Think about the total number of BTS will be for example 1000 coins...

Offline bitcoinerS

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Re: Number of Bitshares X at launch
« Reply #18 on: June 22, 2014, 05:35:04 pm »
Maybe Bitshares X would someday be successful and get to $10, $50, $100+ price range, but trying to start at that level at launch with only 4 million shares is not a smart move.

I vote for somewhere in the range of 100 million to 1 billion shares of X at launch.

I agree.
>>> approve bitcoiners

Offline mf-tzo

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Re: Number of Bitshares X at launch
« Reply #19 on: June 22, 2014, 08:09:22 pm »
I would say 1 or 4 billion...

eventually the target should be to reach at least 1 billion market cap once we get massive adoption and after that the moon...
$1 per btsX.


Offline bytemaster

Re: Number of Bitshares X at launch
« Reply #20 on: June 22, 2014, 10:08:42 pm »
The maximum share supply is dictated by the largest power of 10 less than 2^63 which is 1 Quadrillian.   1,000,000,000,000,000
The initial share supply was selected to be 10,000,000,000,000 in satoshies... 1% of the maximum supply.
The initial share precision was selected to be 1,000,000.

This makes representation of the initial share supply to be:

10,000,000.000000 or 10 million

There are several potential dilution strategies:
1) Deflation (delegates paid a fraction of fees)
2) Steady State (delegates paid 100% of fees)
3) Steady Pay (minimal dilution) (delegates receive pay equal to the minimum transaction fees in a full block regardless of actual transaction fees.
4) Targeted Growth  (delegates paid X% of the difference between current shares and maximum shares at any given point in time.

Under the Targeted Growth model I would suggest that the Initial Shares equal 20% of the Maximum Shares so that AGS/PTS holders are never diluted beyond 20%. 

Code: [Select]
Initial Share Supply          200,000,000.000000
Maximum Share Supply        1,000,000,000.000000
First Year Delegate Pay:      160,000,000.000000  (~1,600,000 per delegate on average (0.44%))
End First Year Total Supply   360,000,000.000000
Second Year Delegate Pay:     128,000,000.000000  (~1,280,000 per delegate on average (0.26%))
End Second Year Total Supply  488,000,000.000000

After 10 years the supply will be 860,000,000.00000

Under these plans, the price of a "share" when the market cap equals bitcoin would be ~5% of bitcoins share price or less.  We can adjust the precision as necessary.  I could see starting out with 20 billion and having 4 decimal places, this would cause the shares to be priced around $1 at bitcoins market cap.   

These are just ideas. 
For the latest updates checkout my blog: http://bytemaster.bitshares.org
Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract between myself and anyone else.   These are merely my opinions and I reserve the right to change them at any time.

Offline pendragon3

Re: Number of Bitshares X at launch
« Reply #21 on: June 22, 2014, 11:01:49 pm »
Does the delegate pay under the targeted scheme seem just a *little* high??

Giving delegates 44% of supply in the first year alone and nearly doubling initial supply in the first year doesn't seem so good :( As a potential investor in Bitshares, I'd be shocked and disappointed if this were the case.

Hey, paying delegates for their services is good, but it's easy to cross the line into overpaying. Then shareholders, who should be the true beneficiaries of the transaction fees, will be shafted. Bitshares would be definitely getting a ton of flak by the broader community for being unfair and not living up to its own goal of placing the dividends in the hands of shareholders. It would cause a LOT of internal strife not to mention rent-seeking  :-[

Delegates are like the board of directors. You want to pay them a modest amount, but not too much. Many soon to be delegates already have the AGS, PTS incentives to make them want to help the network, so not paying them crazy amounts shouldn't make this "secret weapon" less effective to any significant degree.

Early on In the Bitshares.org video: "but what if you could remove those expenses, and give the money saved to the shareholders?" If Bitshares doesn't live up to that vision, it will be shunned, collapse under its greed, and fail.

I think deflation or steady pay schemes are the only way to go. For the foreseeable future, delegates should not earn but a fraction of the fees for doing their job.

Offline toast

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Re: Number of Bitshares X at launch
« Reply #22 on: June 22, 2014, 11:14:55 pm »
First chain is 50/50 with no dilution. Afterwards, you should expect to see many chains with different dilution strategies.

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Offline pendragon3

Re: Number of Bitshares X at launch
« Reply #23 on: June 22, 2014, 11:17:13 pm »
One thing I've learned in finance and dabbling in crypto investing is that shareholders and would-be shareholders in general really don't like dilution. Maybe it's all the same with bips as trading units, but I doubt it. Isn't there a way to compensate delegates for their services without diluting the share base? I'm at least 99% certain that Bitshares will get more traction with investors if it has minimal or no dilution.

Offline bytemaster

Re: Number of Bitshares X at launch
« Reply #24 on: June 22, 2014, 11:19:07 pm »
The goal is to expand the role of delegates and give the shareholders the power to select the dilution rate by electing delegates that will return their surplus pay to the shareholders. 


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For the latest updates checkout my blog: http://bytemaster.bitshares.org
Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract between myself and anyone else.   These are merely my opinions and I reserve the right to change them at any time.

Offline sfinder

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Re: Number of Bitshares X at launch
« Reply #25 on: June 22, 2014, 11:40:45 pm »
The goal is to expand the role of delegates and give the shareholders the power to select the dilution rate by electing delegates that will return their surplus pay to the shareholders. 


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under Targeted Growth model , i feel you try to treat delegates as miners from pow coins but allocating  80% to miners is not fair to AGS/PTS investors.  I would suggest to lower the % to 20-40% for miners in the next 10 years
微博:星在飘我在找|BTS X 受托人delegate ID:baidu
中国教育书店合作将20%收入捐献给贫困山区学生。
Cooperating with China Education Bookstore and will donate 20% of delegate income to the poor students

Offline sfinder

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Re: Number of Bitshares X at launch
« Reply #26 on: June 23, 2014, 12:09:44 am »
According to 3i statements, ags and  pts investers will get 50/50 shares to bts x  chain with no dilution . Any change need to get consensus from our community
First chain is 50/50 with no dilution. Afterwards, you should expect to see many chains with different dilution strategies.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk
微博:星在飘我在找|BTS X 受托人delegate ID:baidu
中国教育书店合作将20%收入捐献给贫困山区学生。
Cooperating with China Education Bookstore and will donate 20% of delegate income to the poor students

Offline BTSdac

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Re: Number of Bitshares X at launch
« Reply #27 on: June 23, 2014, 12:15:54 am »
The goal is to expand the role of delegates and give the shareholders the power to select the dilution rate by electing delegates that will return their surplus pay to the shareholders. 


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hello BM
I think it is very serious thing to change any coin supply .  this way no any benifit to iii and market  confodence
and i think there is no reason to change the total coin supply of BTS  ,
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BTS2.0 API :ws://139.196.37.179:8091
BTS2.0 API 数据源ws://139.196.37.179:8091

Offline toast

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Re: Number of Bitshares X at launch
« Reply #28 on: June 23, 2014, 12:18:52 am »
Everyone relax.
First chain is 50/50 no dilution. These are ideas for future chains.
Do not use this post as information for making any important decisions. The only agreements I ever make are informal and non-binding. Take the same precautions as when dealing with a compromised account, scammer, sockpuppet, etc.

Offline ebit

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Re: Number of Bitshares X at launch
« Reply #29 on: June 23, 2014, 12:21:34 am »
The goal is to expand the role of delegates and give the shareholders the power to select the dilution rate by electing delegates that will return their surplus pay to the shareholders. 


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under Targeted Growth model , i feel you try to treat delegates as miners from pow coins but allocating  80% to miners is not fair to AGS/PTS investors.  I would suggest to lower the % to 20-40% for miners in the next 10 years

Yes . I think so .
Too much change. :'(
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