Author Topic: how about to raise block reward?  (Read 20775 times)

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Offline xeroc

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Re: how about to raise block reward?
« Reply #30 on: January 29, 2017, 07:20:53 pm »
Before I approve a higher pay for witnesses I demand some actions and willingness by the current witnesses to actually do more.

I dont want to pay witnesses more upfront .. neither do we pay workers upfront ..
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Offline Thom

Re: how about to raise block reward?
« Reply #31 on: January 30, 2017, 02:23:47 pm »
Before I approve a higher pay for witnesses I demand some actions and willingness by the current witnesses to actually do more.

I dont want to pay witnesses more upfront .. neither do we pay workers upfront ..

I'm very surprised you said that Fabian. Upfront? what do you call what we've been doing all year? Before graphene was released Bytemaster suggested a witness pay rate of $300 / month at the then current price of BTS. That level has never been attained. In fact it has been as low as half that. It's currently up from that now due to the reduction of the number of witnesses, but if you expect witnesses to upgrade their servers and up their game to provide better feeds I would hope you would honor the level of support commensurate with what the community has expressed.

Note that even the eastern contingent, at least as expressed by bitcrab is in support of increasing witness pay. DataSecurityNode was also in favor or increasing it (tho way too much IMO).

Perhaps you could explain your rational for restraint and provide what you expect in order to merit an increase.

I for one will upgrade all of my systems which are running on the edge of acceptable RAM. I also intend to become more proficient in python and take a more active role in maintaining the bts tools code that wackou created.

Are there specific things you are looking for? If so do tell.

I have said repeatedly that we need to have well known standards for what is expected of witnesses, and I have yet to see anything definitive or a consensus for that published.

I would start by defining a minimum level of security, a minimum amount of RAM, and at least 1 seed node for each witness which could serve as a witness node if necessary to provide a minimum level of fault tolerance.

This push for more pay was started primarily due to "inaccurate feeds". I don't have a specific answer for that, but that's another area where some standards should be defined so witnesses have specific goals to meet for accuracy, number of sources, and perhaps feed algorithms.
Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere - MLK |  Verbaltech2 Witness Reports: https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php/topic,23902.0.html

Offline bitcrab

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Re: how about to raise block reward?
« Reply #32 on: January 31, 2017, 04:26:32 am »
Before I approve a higher pay for witnesses I demand some actions and willingness by the current witnesses to actually do more.

I dont want to pay witnesses more upfront .. neither do we pay workers upfront ..

worker and witness are running in different mode.
for worker, the mode is propose->voters evaluate and confirm->complete job->pay
but for witness, the mode is: set a salary level and pay at block generation, while at the same time voters decide who can work by voting.

so essentially it is not the witnesses to ask for higher payment, it is the community that asking for upgraded service with paying more. it is a little similar to the bounty. but the pay should be there first then more able candidates will come for competence. and then the voters can have enough candidates to evaluate and select.

as proxy I will evaluate the witnesses and adjust voting with standards:
1.stable block generation.
2.at least feed bitCNY or bitUSD or both.
3.the price feeding should be accuate enough with no obvious drawback.

for point 1 I am not able to do enough check, hope developers can provide something for reference.

below active witnesses do not satisfy point 2:
roadscape, cyrano, btsnow, spectral, delegate-1.lafona, dele-puppy

below active witnesses do not satisfy point 3 in a just now "yunbi test":
delegate.ihashfury, delegate-clayop.

I have checked my voting and remove the above mentioned witnesses if I had voted previously.
I hope these witnesses can upgrade their service before the witness pay be really increased.

« Last Edit: January 31, 2017, 04:41:52 am by bitcrab »

Offline bitcrab

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Re: how about to raise block reward?
« Reply #33 on: January 31, 2017, 03:02:29 pm »

Offline Thom

Re: how about to raise block reward?
« Reply #34 on: January 31, 2017, 05:40:24 pm »
Good job on the BSIP [member=23]bitcrab[/member], I commented in github and approve.
Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere - MLK |  Verbaltech2 Witness Reports: https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php/topic,23902.0.html

Offline pc

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Re: how about to raise block reward?
« Reply #35 on: January 31, 2017, 05:43:49 pm »
IMO it is pointless to expect witnesses to produce a "better" or "more accurate" or "more stable" pricefeed as long as there is no agreement about what that means.

The reality is that the prices differ on the exchanges, and not even in a consistent way (e.g. the price BTS -> CNY may be different from BTS -> USD -> CNY or BTS -> BTC -> CNY).
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Offline Thom

Re: how about to raise block reward?
« Reply #36 on: January 31, 2017, 05:56:41 pm »
IMO it is pointless to expect witnesses to produce a "better" or "more accurate" or "more stable" pricefeed as long as there is no agreement about what that means.

The reality is that the prices differ on the exchanges, and not even in a consistent way (e.g. the price BTS -> CNY may be different from BTS -> USD -> CNY or BTS -> BTC -> CNY).

I totally agree [member=94]pc[/member]. As I mention in another thread standards for feeds are necessary if witnesses are to be evaluated based on their feed accuracy. I specifically said reliability of feed sources must be taken into account for example.

However, the reason for increasing witness pay is not only to support "better" feeds, and I still believe an increase is warranted.
Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere - MLK |  Verbaltech2 Witness Reports: https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php/topic,23902.0.html

Offline bitcrab

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Re: how about to raise block reward?
« Reply #37 on: February 01, 2017, 03:29:22 am »
IMO it is pointless to expect witnesses to produce a "better" or "more accurate" or "more stable" pricefeed as long as there is no agreement about what that means.

The reality is that the prices differ on the exchanges, and not even in a consistent way (e.g. the price BTS -> CNY may be different from BTS -> USD -> CNY or BTS -> BTC -> CNY).

I now tend to use "reliable feed" instead of other words.
prices may differ between different exchanges, but they are not separated.

the settlement price should be high enough that when a shorter is force settled, he can buy back the collateral from from DEX or outside exchanges with price (settlement price + compensation) without big difficulties.

the settlement price should be low enough that the collateral ratio do not over evaluate the market value of the collateral.

I believe a trader can easily understand what I said.

it may be not easy to tell which is best from several acceptable price feed.
but it is easy to select unacceptable price feed and remove.

if all the price feed is acceptable, then the final settlement price should be good enough, that is what we need.

Offline bitcrab

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Re: how about to raise block reward?
« Reply #38 on: February 01, 2017, 03:08:45 pm »
just create 2 worker to collect share base opinions before create committee proposal, please vote according to your opinion

Offline bitcrab

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Re: how about to raise block reward?
« Reply #39 on: February 07, 2017, 03:31:18 pm »
as many shareholders prefer 3BTS, so one more worker is created for 3BTS option, please vote if this is your choice.

Offline Thom

Re: how about to raise block reward?
« Reply #40 on: February 07, 2017, 04:52:47 pm »
Very disappointed the meat of the discussion & debate is being held on Telegram and not here. I have tried to be involved there but it's difficult and time consuming scrolling through all the discussions that are intermixed over the course of hours.

I saw your comment there [member=23]bitcrab[/member] about their fickle response to increase, ask for 3 BTS option then they recant and say none. I'm specifically referring to [member=30868]kenCode[/member]. Shit I can't even prove he did that since it's ancient history on Telegram. Is that why he won't discuss here on the forum?

I think it's ridiculous, especially in light of the increase in DEX use, and long time working for essentially poverty level wages. Everyone wants "more passion" More work but aren't willing to say what that means; you are an exception [member=23]bitcrab[/member], tho IMHO the criteria should be even broader than you've expressed.

I think I saw [member=39182]tbone[/member] mention the inclusion on the testnet as a witness requirement. Not a bad idea, especially for standby witnesses. I have refrained from participation on the testnet due to the cost of an additional VPS, a high end VPS of AT LEAST 8GB and more likely to be realistic at least 16GB or more for performance testing.

I approve testnet participation as a requirement for witnesses, however I will probably have to cut out half of my seed nodes. If the 3BTS increase is voted in, I will re-evaluate. Asking me to support 4 nodes plus a high end node for testnet is a bit much for 3BTS. Also consider the significant increase of time required to participate in the testnet.

This witness pay issue and the "secret room" nature of it being conducted PRIMARILY in real time on Telegram and not for the wider community here on the forum (and for people in the future) is very sad. I've been hanging in there waiting for more activity in general, and [member=30868]kenCode[/member] and his team have been one of the most aggressive in moving forward with further development, but I'm barely making any profit maintaining 4 full nodes.

I believe he refuses to consider the bigger picture of global witness concerns. To push an agenda of lower witness pay (by not keeping up with increasing costs) without consideration for the range of costs involved IN ALL AREAS OF THE GLOBE, INCLUDING NORTH AMERICA, is not good. He has refused to respond to my post that challenges him to show how HE could sustain HIS lifestyle on witness pay alone. He can't. Subsidizing a witness "business" is necessary for all but wage earners in the poorest economies. I see it similarly to the US subsidizing corporations through incentives to outsource their operations to countries with lower labor costs. Some things that makes perfect sense to do, for others it's cost cutting, profit seeking, short sided, near term thinking and the future be damned.

As for all those "silent" witnesses that fail to participate or provide feeds, the only recourse I can see to get their attention is voting them out. For all potential standby witnesses I really want to see them participate in the testnet, especially since that is the only way standby's can publish price feeds and perfect their scripts.

Thank you [member=23]bitcrab[/member] and [member=39182]tbone[/member] for a reasonable voice in all this. 
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Offline xeroc

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Re: how about to raise block reward?
« Reply #41 on: February 07, 2017, 05:15:04 pm »
Very disappointed the meat of the discussion & debate is being held on Telegram and not here. I have tried to be involved there but it's difficult and time consuming scrolling through all the discussions that are intermixed over the course of hours.

I saw your comment there [member=23]bitcrab[/member] about their fickle response to increase, ask for 3 BTS option then they recant and say none. I'm specifically referring to [member=30868]kenCode[/member]. Shit I can't even prove he did that since it's ancient history on Telegram. Is that why he won't discuss here on the forum?

I think it's ridiculous, especially in light of the increase in DEX use, and long time working for essentially poverty level wages. Everyone wants "more passion" More work but aren't willing to say what that means; you are an exception [member=23]bitcrab[/member], tho IMHO the criteria should be even broader than you've expressed.

I think I saw [member=39182]tbone[/member] mention the inclusion on the testnet as a witness requirement. Not a bad idea, especially for standby witnesses. I have refrained from participation on the testnet due to the cost of an additional VPS, a high end VPS of AT LEAST 8GB and more likely to be realistic at least 16GB or more for performance testing.

I approve testnet participation as a requirement for witnesses, however I will probably have to cut out half of my seed nodes. If the 3BTS increase is voted in, I will re-evaluate. Asking me to support 4 nodes plus a high end node for testnet is a bit much for 3BTS. Also consider the significant increase of time required to participate in the testnet.

This witness pay issue and the "secret room" nature of it being conducted PRIMARILY in real time on Telegram and not for the wider community here on the forum (and for people in the future) is very sad. I've been hanging in there waiting for more activity in general, and [member=30868]kenCode[/member] and his team have been one of the most aggressive in moving forward with further development, but I'm barely making any profit maintaining 4 full nodes.

I believe he refuses to consider the bigger picture of global witness concerns. To push an agenda of lower witness pay (by not keeping up with increasing costs) without consideration for the range of costs involved IN ALL AREAS OF THE GLOBE, INCLUDING NORTH AMERICA, is not good. He has refused to respond to my post that challenges him to show how HE could sustain HIS lifestyle on witness pay alone. He can't. Subsidizing a witness "business" is necessary for all but wage earners in the poorest economies. I see it similarly to the US subsidizing corporations through incentives to outsource their operations to countries with lower labor costs. Some things that makes perfect sense to do, for others it's cost cutting, profit seeking, short sided, near term thinking and the future be damned.

As for all those "silent" witnesses that fail to participate or provide feeds, the only recourse I can see to get their attention is voting them out. For all potential standby witnesses I really want to see them participate in the testnet, especially since that is the only way standby's can publish price feeds and perfect their scripts.

Thank you [member=23]bitcrab[/member] and [member=39182]tbone[/member] for a reasonable voice in all this.
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Offline kenCode

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Re: how about to raise block reward?
« Reply #42 on: February 07, 2017, 05:46:06 pm »
Sorry [member=21490]Thom[/member] I didn't know you were expecting a reply from me. You had stated your case, and I stated mine, so I figured there was no sense in me spending any more time in the discussion. Sorry man, was not trying to avoid you or anything, have just been very busy.
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Offline fav

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Re: how about to raise block reward?
« Reply #43 on: February 07, 2017, 07:29:11 pm »

I think it's ridiculous, especially in light of the increase in DEX use, and long time working for essentially poverty level wages.

not sure what you're referring to. you mean paying for a server and maintenance as work?

other than that, workers get paid decently, that's why we got that feature

Offline bitcrab

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Re: how about to raise block reward?
« Reply #44 on: February 08, 2017, 01:07:33 pm »
Thanks [member=21490]Thom[/member] for what you have done as witness, but anyway please calm down.
many discussion happened in Telegram as it is an instand messenger so many people like the convenience, however it is just discussion, to make decision we always need open discussion and voting.
I have also considered 5BTS or 8BTS as an option, after some open discussion and the poll I decided to propose 4BTS. then I found many shareholder prefer 3BTS, I think it is good to let the community select from no change, 3BTS and 4BTS by voting, that's what had happened.
now 3BTS get most support, however we still have 9 days for voting, 4BTS option still has chance to win. if you believe 4BTS is better, you can try to talk with proxies to get support from them.