Author Topic: how about to raise block reward?  (Read 26180 times)

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Offline bitcrab

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just create 2 worker to collect share base opinions before create committee proposal, please vote according to your opinion
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Offline bitcrab

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IMO it is pointless to expect witnesses to produce a "better" or "more accurate" or "more stable" pricefeed as long as there is no agreement about what that means.

The reality is that the prices differ on the exchanges, and not even in a consistent way (e.g. the price BTS -> CNY may be different from BTS -> USD -> CNY or BTS -> BTC -> CNY).

I now tend to use "reliable feed" instead of other words.
prices may differ between different exchanges, but they are not separated.

the settlement price should be high enough that when a shorter is force settled, he can buy back the collateral from from DEX or outside exchanges with price (settlement price + compensation) without big difficulties.

the settlement price should be low enough that the collateral ratio do not over evaluate the market value of the collateral.

I believe a trader can easily understand what I said.

it may be not easy to tell which is best from several acceptable price feed.
but it is easy to select unacceptable price feed and remove.

if all the price feed is acceptable, then the final settlement price should be good enough, that is what we need.
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Offline Thom

IMO it is pointless to expect witnesses to produce a "better" or "more accurate" or "more stable" pricefeed as long as there is no agreement about what that means.

The reality is that the prices differ on the exchanges, and not even in a consistent way (e.g. the price BTS -> CNY may be different from BTS -> USD -> CNY or BTS -> BTC -> CNY).

I totally agree @pc. As I mention in another thread standards for feeds are necessary if witnesses are to be evaluated based on their feed accuracy. I specifically said reliability of feed sources must be taken into account for example.

However, the reason for increasing witness pay is not only to support "better" feeds, and I still believe an increase is warranted.
Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere - MLK |  Verbaltech2 Witness Reports: https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php/topic,23902.0.html

Offline pc

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IMO it is pointless to expect witnesses to produce a "better" or "more accurate" or "more stable" pricefeed as long as there is no agreement about what that means.

The reality is that the prices differ on the exchanges, and not even in a consistent way (e.g. the price BTS -> CNY may be different from BTS -> USD -> CNY or BTS -> BTC -> CNY).
Bitcoin - Perspektive oder Risiko? ISBN 978-3-8442-6568-2 http://bitcoin.quisquis.de

Offline Thom

Good job on the BSIP @bitcrab, I commented in github and approve.
Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere - MLK |  Verbaltech2 Witness Reports: https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php/topic,23902.0.html

Offline bitcrab

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Offline bitcrab

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Before I approve a higher pay for witnesses I demand some actions and willingness by the current witnesses to actually do more.

I dont want to pay witnesses more upfront .. neither do we pay workers upfront ..

worker and witness are running in different mode.
for worker, the mode is propose->voters evaluate and confirm->complete job->pay
but for witness, the mode is: set a salary level and pay at block generation, while at the same time voters decide who can work by voting.

so essentially it is not the witnesses to ask for higher payment, it is the community that asking for upgraded service with paying more. it is a little similar to the bounty. but the pay should be there first then more able candidates will come for competence. and then the voters can have enough candidates to evaluate and select.

as proxy I will evaluate the witnesses and adjust voting with standards:
1.stable block generation.
2.at least feed bitCNY or bitUSD or both.
3.the price feeding should be accuate enough with no obvious drawback.

for point 1 I am not able to do enough check, hope developers can provide something for reference.

below active witnesses do not satisfy point 2:
roadscape, cyrano, btsnow, spectral, delegate-1.lafona, dele-puppy

below active witnesses do not satisfy point 3 in a just now "yunbi test":
delegate.ihashfury, delegate-clayop.

I have checked my voting and remove the above mentioned witnesses if I had voted previously.
I hope these witnesses can upgrade their service before the witness pay be really increased.

« Last Edit: January 31, 2017, 04:41:52 am by bitcrab »
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Offline Thom

Before I approve a higher pay for witnesses I demand some actions and willingness by the current witnesses to actually do more.

I dont want to pay witnesses more upfront .. neither do we pay workers upfront ..

I'm very surprised you said that Fabian. Upfront? what do you call what we've been doing all year? Before graphene was released Bytemaster suggested a witness pay rate of $300 / month at the then current price of BTS. That level has never been attained. In fact it has been as low as half that. It's currently up from that now due to the reduction of the number of witnesses, but if you expect witnesses to upgrade their servers and up their game to provide better feeds I would hope you would honor the level of support commensurate with what the community has expressed.

Note that even the eastern contingent, at least as expressed by bitcrab is in support of increasing witness pay. DataSecurityNode was also in favor or increasing it (tho way too much IMO).

Perhaps you could explain your rational for restraint and provide what you expect in order to merit an increase.

I for one will upgrade all of my systems which are running on the edge of acceptable RAM. I also intend to become more proficient in python and take a more active role in maintaining the bts tools code that wackou created.

Are there specific things you are looking for? If so do tell.

I have said repeatedly that we need to have well known standards for what is expected of witnesses, and I have yet to see anything definitive or a consensus for that published.

I would start by defining a minimum level of security, a minimum amount of RAM, and at least 1 seed node for each witness which could serve as a witness node if necessary to provide a minimum level of fault tolerance.

This push for more pay was started primarily due to "inaccurate feeds". I don't have a specific answer for that, but that's another area where some standards should be defined so witnesses have specific goals to meet for accuracy, number of sources, and perhaps feed algorithms.
Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere - MLK |  Verbaltech2 Witness Reports: https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php/topic,23902.0.html

Offline xeroc

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Before I approve a higher pay for witnesses I demand some actions and willingness by the current witnesses to actually do more.

I dont want to pay witnesses more upfront .. neither do we pay workers upfront ..

Offline Thom

Is there any numerical analyzes regarding financial effects of such change. It will certainly increase dilution rate. Buy what figure.
Is it going to be increased for certain amount of time or until curtain market evaluation reach.
 
If I may say so, there is no actual market set for witnesses. They all should compete for witness role. From recognizable names thru quality of produced blocks and price feeds, etc.. Standards of accomplishment should be rise so as the reword. Could it all be built in some kind of smart contract. Since they are payed in BTS their steady income flow depend of BTS market valuation. Probably best solution would be that
witnesses are paid in bitUSD or any other bitasset.
 
Those decisions should be carefully evaluated. I don't see any careful evaluation.

when I wrote, the BTS supply is 2580740816(reserve pool not included), so 4BTS means 1.6% annual dilution rate.
today's total avaliable budget: 305566 BTS. in which 68961(22.6%) are paide to 3 real worker and the left is for one refund worker.
4BTS means 115200 BTS daily payment to witness.

the current competition is based on voting, it is not perfect, a smart contract sounds wonderful, but it's not easy and implement. for example, one critiria of how well the witness work is the accuracy of the price feeding, how to evaluate the accuracy of price feeding by smart contract? increasing witness payment is incentive to better witness work including more accuracy price feeding, and higher witness payment will make the proxy more strict on voting from more candidates.

for payment in BitUSD, there are already many discussion on pay BitUSD for worker proposal, but one problem is how to supply enough bitUSD. no satisfactory solution up to now. and as active witnesses is a dynamic group, the number and members of the group may change now and then, it is not a big problem to just pay in BTS.

we have done some discussion and evaluation, it is not accurate but senseful, and the conclusion is:
1. to encourage the witnesses to pay senseful more cost and effort on witness work, we need at least double the witness pay.
2. the dilution that a 4BTS witness pay bring is acceptable.
 
this may be not a perfect solution, but it is feasible, senseful and can be implemented in not long time.

I concur with everything you said above.
Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere - MLK |  Verbaltech2 Witness Reports: https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php/topic,23902.0.html

Offline bitcrab

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Is there any numerical analyzes regarding financial effects of such change. It will certainly increase dilution rate. Buy what figure.
Is it going to be increased for certain amount of time or until curtain market evaluation reach.
 
If I may say so, there is no actual market set for witnesses. They all should compete for witness role. From recognizable names thru quality of produced blocks and price feeds, etc.. Standards of accomplishment should be rise so as the reword. Could it all be built in some kind of smart contract. Since they are payed in BTS their steady income flow depend of BTS market valuation. Probably best solution would be that
witnesses are paid in bitUSD or any other bitasset.
 
Those decisions should be carefully evaluated. I don't see any careful evaluation.

when I wrote, the BTS supply is 2580740816(reserve pool not included), so 4BTS means 1.6% annual dilution rate.
today's total avaliable budget: 305566 BTS. in which 68961(22.6%) are paide to 3 real worker and the left is for one refund worker.
4BTS means 115200 BTS daily payment to witness.

the current competition is based on voting, it is not perfect, a smart contract sounds wonderful, but it's not easy to implement. for example, one critiria of how well the witness work is the accuracy of the price feeding, how to evaluate the accuracy of price feeding by smart contract? increasing witness payment is incentive to better witness work including more accuracy price feeding, and higher witness payment will make the proxy more strict on voting from more candidates.

for payment in BitUSD, there are already many discussion on pay BitUSD for worker proposal, but one problem is how to supply enough bitUSD. no satisfactory solution up to now. and as active witnesses is a dynamic group, the number and members of the group may change now and then, it is not a big problem to just pay in BTS.

we have done some discussion and evaluation, it is not accurate but senseful, and the conclusion is:
1. to encourage the witnesses to pay senseful more cost and effort on witness work, we need at least double the witness pay.
2. the dilution that a 4BTS witness pay bring is acceptable.
 
this may be not a perfect solution, but it is feasible, senseful and can be implemented in not long time.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2017, 12:47:47 pm by bitcrab »
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Offline Geneko

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Is there any numerical analyzes regarding financial effects of such change. It will certainly increase dilution rate. Buy what figure.
Is it going to be increased for certain amount of time or until curtain market evaluation reach.
 
If I may say so, there is no actual market set for witnesses. They all should compete for witness role. From recognizable names thru quality of produced blocks and price feeds, etc.. Standards of accomplishment should be rise so as the reword. Could it all be built in some kind of smart contract. Since they are payed in BTS their steady income flow depend of BTS market valuation. Probably best solution would be that
witnesses are paid in bitUSD or any other bitasset.
 
Those decisions should be carefully evaluated. I don't see any careful evaluation.

Offline fav

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the poll ended, finally totally 20 for increasing to 3/5/8 BTS, 9 object and 2 for other choices.
now I tend to push 4 BTS as a compromise. hope that can be accepted by all the parties.

could you increase the network fees too?

I mean, chinese exchanges introduced trading fees, so chinese community should have no problem with adjusted fees, right?

however I haven't saw the necessity to increase trading fees.

Very interesting.

Offline bitcrab

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the poll ended, finally totally 20 for increasing to 3/5/8 BTS, 9 object and 2 for other choices.
now I tend to push 4 BTS as a compromise. hope that can be accepted by all the parties.

could you increase the network fees too?

I mean, chinese exchanges introduced trading fees, so chinese community should have no problem with adjusted fees, right?

however I haven't saw the necessity to increase trading fees.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2017, 03:13:19 am by bitcrab »
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Offline blahblah7up

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the poll ended, finally totally 20 for increasing to 3/5/8 BTS, 9 object and 2 for other choices.
now I tend to push 4 BTS as a compromise. hope that can be accepted by all the parties.

could you increase the network fees too?

I mean, chinese exchanges introduced trading fees, so chinese community should have no problem with adjusted fees, right?

Great question!