Show Posts

This section allows you to view all posts made by this member. Note that you can only see posts made in areas you currently have access to.


Messages - amencon

Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 ... 16
31
I don't understand the perspective of those who think "the social contract was not fulfilled". In my opinion, that outlook is a result of overly rigid thinking. A social contract shouldn't be like computer code or a math formula. It's not an if then else statement.

It was used to attract investors. It wasn't legal obligation. However III pointed it while marketing AGS/PTS . They didn't put enough effort to warn the investors of the fact that they might not honor it fully. It is a mistake that could enrage a lot of investors. AND induce doubt on their ability to fully fulfill any future promise.

What if honoring the social contract "fully", would probably result in BTSX eventually being worth nothing? The greater good was honored.

+5% +5%  The biggest social contact is to succeed for investors.  That takes precedent over all others.  What good is your "social contact" if your investment goes to zero and btsx/pts/ags are sitting in the dust bin of history?
Come on guys let's not argue based on fear mongering tactics using "what if" statements.  You don't know that this merger won't result in everything I3 has done result in being worthless seeing how they are putting all their eggs in one basket now.

Even BM accurately stated that this move was what he thought was the right decision but that he could be wrong.

If your argument is that no statements or contracts or agreements should ever be binding for BM and I3 because you implicitly trust them to make the right decisions, then that is a perfectly fine argument to make with no need to invoke impossible to prove "what if" scenarios.

I would not call it fear mongering at all. Look at it this way:

They always speak clearly and honestly about the options.

People were upset when they moved away from mining: Now it is common sense!

People were upset when they introduced AGS: Now ICO's are common sense!

People were upset when they introduced DPoS: Now it is our best chance to survive!

People were upset that bitUSD was an experiment: They made it work!

Now people are upset at merger and share issuance, so is this time different? I don't think so; if you watch closely veterans of all stripes on this forum seem to agree with the proposal.
Just because a merger might be successful doesn't mean the old paradigm couldn't have been.  You nor anyone else knows that BTSX as a stand alone DAC was going to die for sure (in fact about a week ago everyone was convinced it was in great shape and going to be greatly successful) so it's disingenuous to use that as an argument why it's OK for I3 to violate the social consensus.  I'm not even arguing that violating the consensus is the wrong move, just that if you want to take the position that there should be no constraints on what I3 can do in the future based on their previous statements, you should make that clear rather than positing some fantasy scenario where BTSX was apparently doomed until a few days ago.

Oh u think u know best for Bitshares!  Why cant u just get OVER IT!  Keep opinion to youself!  Stop hurting Bitshares because u angry.
I've stated many times that this might very well be the best for Bitshares.  Sorry you find my opinions on things so frustrating.  I'm actually not angry, I just don't agree with everything that has happened and dislike many attitudes I find within this community, your thread about I3 and Mao serving as a quintessential example.

Hear me...

Mao all ways put his people first just like Stan and Dan.  Some people loose.  Ok.  Sacrifice necessary for STRONG BITSHARES!

If u dont like GET OUT TRATOR!!!
Haha, yes sir!

32
I agree, we have no idea. BM could be wrong, and the community could call him out on it, but the community could be wrong as well, not calling him out on it, and we would not necessarily know until it all goes downhill. It seems to me however that what we have over all the other communities is an invaluable intellectual flexibility that comes with independent critical thinkers reaching reasoned consensus.
I think we can move forward on our new path in a positive manner without pretending we know what would have happened on all other paths we could have taken.  I don't really think we disagree that much with each other.  My original comment was maybe sort of a nitpick but how the message is phrased is important to me and I think it's important to keep it as honest as possible.

33
I don't understand the perspective of those who think "the social contract was not fulfilled". In my opinion, that outlook is a result of overly rigid thinking. A social contract shouldn't be like computer code or a math formula. It's not an if then else statement.

It was used to attract investors. It wasn't legal obligation. However III pointed it while marketing AGS/PTS . They didn't put enough effort to warn the investors of the fact that they might not honor it fully. It is a mistake that could enrage a lot of investors. AND induce doubt on their ability to fully fulfill any future promise.

What if honoring the social contract "fully", would probably result in BTSX eventually being worth nothing? The greater good was honored.

+5% +5%  The biggest social contact is to succeed for investors.  That takes precedent over all others.  What good is your "social contact" if your investment goes to zero and btsx/pts/ags are sitting in the dust bin of history?
Come on guys let's not argue based on fear mongering tactics using "what if" statements.  You don't know that this merger won't result in everything I3 has done result in being worthless seeing how they are putting all their eggs in one basket now.

Even BM accurately stated that this move was what he thought was the right decision but that he could be wrong.

If your argument is that no statements or contracts or agreements should ever be binding for BM and I3 because you implicitly trust them to make the right decisions, then that is a perfectly fine argument to make with no need to invoke impossible to prove "what if" scenarios.

I would not call it fear mongering at all. Look at it this way:

They always speak clearly and honestly about the options.

People were upset when they moved away from mining: Now it is common sense!

People were upset when they introduced AGS: Now ICO's are common sense!

People were upset when they introduced DPoS: Now it is our best chance to survive!

People were upset that bitUSD was an experiment: They made it work!

Now people are upset at merger and share issuance, so is this time different? I don't think so; if you watch closely veterans of all stripes on this forum seem to agree with the proposal.
Just because a merger might be successful doesn't mean the old paradigm couldn't have been.  You nor anyone else knows that BTSX as a stand alone DAC was going to die for sure (in fact about a week ago everyone was convinced it was in great shape and going to be greatly successful) so it's disingenuous to use that as an argument why it's OK for I3 to violate the social consensus.  I'm not even arguing that violating the consensus is the wrong move, just that if you want to take the position that there should be no constraints on what I3 can do in the future based on their previous statements, you should make that clear rather than positing some fantasy scenario where BTSX was apparently doomed until a few days ago.

Oh u think u know best for Bitshares!  Why cant u just get OVER IT!  Keep opinion to youself!  Stop hurting Bitshares because u angry.
I've stated many times that this might very well be the best for Bitshares.  Sorry you find my opinions on things so frustrating.  I'm actually not angry, I just don't agree with everything that has happened and dislike many attitudes I find within this community, your thread about I3 and Mao serving as a quintessential example.

34
if you want to take the position that there should be no constraints on what I3 can do in the future based on their previous statements, you should make that clear rather than positing some fantasy scenario where BTSX was apparently doomed until a few days ago.

Without consensus from the people who are heavily involved in and understand this space I3 would not have gone through with the proposal. This was the condition in every iteration, that we all discuss the proposal freely and let the best ideas and arguments win the day. We don't just trust BM to make a change whenever he feels like it, he has to convince us with arguments - if he is not able, as has happened several times, the proposal is revoked.
Ok that's fair, but doesn't really change what I was saying.  The majority has voted to move away from the initial concept of the social consensus through good argumentation from BM.  Has nothing to do with arguing that moving away from the social consensus was necessary due to BTSX supposed imminent demise.

Nobody knows the future.  We all hope the right decisions are being made.  I'm perfectly fine with attempts to form consensus by discussing the merits of the merger, I don't think there is any reason to pretend like we know for sure that everything would have failed otherwise and base arguments from that perspective.

35
General Discussion / Re: The NEW Bitshares PTS - superDAC slayer!
« on: October 24, 2014, 05:06:31 pm »
Interesting concept.  If it got support and commitment from some developers then I'd definitely support the initiative.

I'd like to see lots of variations on the toolkit, hopefully so that as DACs come and go just like normal companies do, the combined knowledge and experience of the businesses before can continue to evolve the toolkit so that each new generation of DACs grow stronger, regardless of which market vertical the DAC is catering to.

36
I don't understand the perspective of those who think "the social contract was not fulfilled". In my opinion, that outlook is a result of overly rigid thinking. A social contract shouldn't be like computer code or a math formula. It's not an if then else statement.

It was used to attract investors. It wasn't legal obligation. However III pointed it while marketing AGS/PTS . They didn't put enough effort to warn the investors of the fact that they might not honor it fully. It is a mistake that could enrage a lot of investors. AND induce doubt on their ability to fully fulfill any future promise.

What if honoring the social contract "fully", would probably result in BTSX eventually being worth nothing? The greater good was honored.

+5% +5%  The biggest social contact is to succeed for investors.  That takes precedent over all others.  What good is your "social contact" if your investment goes to zero and btsx/pts/ags are sitting in the dust bin of history?
Come on guys let's not argue based on fear mongering tactics using "what if" statements.  You don't know that this merger won't result in everything I3 has done result in being worthless seeing how they are putting all their eggs in one basket now.

Even BM accurately stated that this move was what he thought was the right decision but that he could be wrong.

If your argument is that no statements or contracts or agreements should ever be binding for BM and I3 because you implicitly trust them to make the right decisions, then that is a perfectly fine argument to make with no need to invoke impossible to prove "what if" scenarios.

I would not call it fear mongering at all. Look at it this way:

They always speak clearly and honestly about the options.

People were upset when they moved away from mining: Now it is common sense!

People were upset when they introduced AGS: Now ICO's are common sense!

People were upset when they introduced DPoS: Now it is our best chance to survive!

People were upset that bitUSD was an experiment: They made it work!

Now people are upset at merger and share issuance, so is this time different? I don't think so; if you watch closely veterans of all stripes on this forum seem to agree with the proposal.
Just because a merger might be successful doesn't mean the old paradigm couldn't have been.  You nor anyone else knows that BTSX as a stand alone DAC was going to die for sure (in fact about a week ago everyone was convinced it was in great shape and going to be greatly successful) so it's disingenuous to use that as an argument why it's OK for I3 to violate the social consensus.  I'm not even arguing that violating the consensus is the wrong move, just that if you want to take the position that there should be no constraints on what I3 can do in the future based on their previous statements, you should make that clear rather than positing some fantasy scenario where BTSX was apparently doomed until a few days ago.

37
I don't understand the perspective of those who think "the social contract was not fulfilled". In my opinion, that outlook is a result of overly rigid thinking. A social contract shouldn't be like computer code or a math formula. It's not an if then else statement.

It was used to attract investors. It wasn't legal obligation. However III pointed it while marketing AGS/PTS . They didn't put enough effort to warn the investors of the fact that they might not honor it fully. It is a mistake that could enrage a lot of investors. AND induce doubt on their ability to fully fulfill any future promise.

What if honoring the social contract "fully", would probably result in BTSX eventually being worth nothing? The greater good was honored.

+5% +5%  The biggest social contact is to succeed for investors.  That takes precedent over all others.  What good is your "social contact" if your investment goes to zero and btsx/pts/ags are sitting in the dust bin of history?
Come on guys let's not argue based on fear mongering tactics using "what if" statements.  You don't know that this merger won't result in everything I3 has done result in being worthless seeing how they are putting all their eggs in one basket now.

Even BM accurately stated that this move was what he thought was the right decision but that he could be wrong.

If your argument is that no statements or contracts or agreements should ever be binding for BM and I3 because you implicitly trust them to make the right decisions, then that is a perfectly fine argument to make with no need to invoke impossible to prove "what if" scenarios.

38
Stakeholder Proposals / Re: Delegate Introduction: alecmenconi
« on: October 24, 2014, 01:55:18 am »
When I upgraded my client last night I spaced on running the wallet_publish_version command, looks like due to that I was voted out by I3.

Hopefully they'll reinstate me but if not just wanted to say thanks for the support so far.

39
You act like being an early adopter is a privilege, that you deserve everything you can get your hands on. Let me tell you it is not. It is a gift, maybe the greatest gift anyone has ever received - and it is time that you take on the responsibility that goes along with it.

I think we are seeing "true colors" from a lot of people, out on display for all the community to see. Who can handle the intensity of the reality of what needs to be done? I am most impressed by the ones that haveaccepted this reality, even though it may have meant a temporary personal "loss". My observation is that those who hold most tightly to their "expectations", are the ones who cry the loudest when they find out the world does not revolve around them.

I'm getting sick of Rune's thinly hidden cheerleading.  The account is not even a month old and this person is condescending to people who have been around far longer, done far more, and bought into something completely different.

He is telling us same cheerleading we heard before he was even around.

It was not an honor or a privilege to have been early investors.  We did this by making the correct decisions.  Make those correct decisions required labor and intelligence.  We worked for it.  You probably came around after seeing BTSX on coinmarketcap.  So save your bullshit for others.

As for everything else it seems fairly close to a done deal.  I'm not happy, but mainly it is over the cultural shift.  It is likely required and likely a good thing.  I just don't understand what exactly these "mergers" mean or what exactly they imply and it is a source of my irritation. The value equation is very complicated and depends on a lot of small factors which have been vague and scattered about.

In the end I'd ask people to start being nicer.  I'm sure Dan never really wanted it to turn out like this, and it really is as much a proactive move as reactive I believe.  Yesterday I had a lot little jabs and snide posts.  It is hard not to be that way.  For me this pivot makes it harder to be a rah-rah fanboy as my vision isn't as much aligned with this single DAC centric one.  I'd imagine it is like being a sports fan (whatever thats like) and seeing your whole team just die on the field.  Ok.. not really.. I'm kidding.. Seriously though I will try to be more positive.  We'll see where she goes as I can't see any other project as worthy of my time.  :|
If you look at the history Rune was in forefront pushing for the merger in the VOTE thread that started all this (I think Rune made the proposal before BM did).  Now that he has what he wants he's trying to get everyone to shut up and just go along as quietly as possible.  To help facilitate this he just has to shake the pompoms a few times to get the +5% crowd going.

On top of that in the confusion he's now also proposing a system where an elite few get access to secret forums for all the inside details from the devs.  At what stake threshold to gain access does he propose, close to around the amount of stake he controls...

It's just a bunch of manipulative bullshit, never let a good crisis go to waste and all that.

Like everyone else, at the very least I've not been bored haha.

Okay first of all, we are stakeholders in the same company. Our goal of increasing value should align, and it would make no sense for me to act in a way puts you at a disadvantage, as I'd also be hurting myself. If you think it would be more profitable for us to have several DACs, and that I have hurt you financially then fine you are right to be mad at me, but you have to understand that I did it only with the best intentions of increasing value for everyone (including myself). Ideologically, I would prefer many DACs, but in practice I don't think any other strategy than a superDAC is economically viable. If we did not make the superDAC, someone else would, and their superDAC would outcompete ours. Do you trust that other random community to be as honest as ours? My experience tells me that most other altcoins have pretty horrible pump n dump communities that put profit above everything else compared to this one. Since there is no other way, what I hope to achieve is that our superDAC is created in a way that stays true to the principles of decentralization. I'm of course also very excited to see what it will end up becoming.

Regarding the insider club, you're right that it's a bad thing, but consider that right now the insider club is I3 with no transparency at all. I would prefer to have absolute transparency with nothing being hidden from anyone with no barriers to entry whatsoever, and I hope we can implement that once we have achieved significant network effect. Right now it seems that I3 employees thinks it is vital to keep a lot of information secret to avoid having it stolen by competitors. I trust their judgement in this regard, even if I don't like it, and that is why I proposed the "secret insider club" of large stakeholders to be able to share this sensitive information, so that there at least are people independent from the developers who are able to hear it and report their sentiments to the broader community.

I guess delegates could also be used for this regard, but I suspect that delegates will devolve into politics and we would then be stuck with this secret insider club political elite that I think could go really bad.

The fact that I conveniently decided to put the bar exactly so that I could join the secret insider club was pretty stupid I guess, but in the end it would be up to I3 to decide who to let in on their secrets, and also since I'm the only member of the community that I know for a fact could be trusted to be honest and transparent about relaying what stage these secret projects are at, I just can't help be biased. I know the fact that I trust myself useless for everyone else but I just wanted to voice my thought process. At least I disclosed my share, it would be worse if I conveniently put my proposal at my own share level without disclosing it and then pretended it was for some other reason.

In the end I already own enough shares to become ridiculously wealthy once this blockchain takes off. I could just sit back and do nothing and I'm sure there'd be massive price bubbles regardless, but I feel compelled to argue for as much transparency as possible, and try to push the DAC in the direction that I am convinced is best for everyone. It's quite disheartening to become the target of hostility. That being said I also realize that I'm unfairly lucky to be a purely BTSX investor, and I've been insensitive to the frustrations of those that held other shares, and for that I'm sorry.
First off, thank you for the measured and reasoned response.

This whole process has my hackles up and I've been in a mood to fire shots first and ask questions later.  If I've missed my targets and made wrongful accusations then I'm sorry for that.

I'm finding it hard to believe that this merger idea was just some natural evolution and not a reaction to a reaction based on the VOTE thread.  I may be wrong and maybe the timing is just a coincidence, or maybe the initial furor on the forums accelerated thoughts in BM's head that had been percolating for some time.

I also find it frustrating that there seems to be an air on these forums of continual giddy excitement almost regardless of what's actually happening.  Owning small businesses in the past I've been tricked many times in attending meeting for "business opportunities" that turn out to be MLM schemes where everyone there has the same monotone chants and big grins to simulate some over the top welcoming environment for the sake of the few new people in the room.  Occasionally I get that sense reading some threads on the forums here.  I realize that this is probably genuine excitement and not some calculated ploy to try to hook investors, but that's just sometimes how it feels to me. 

I am very excited for DAC technology and I think it will spread and grow and change how business is done in the future (and completely transform the user/customer experience in the process).  Even if I'm not happy about the recent changes, I am very pleased that all the talented devs here are working to make this kind of technology a reality.  The truth is that of all the posts I've read from bitshares devs I do come away feeling like they have good intentions and are truthful, so though I might kick back when I don't agree, as long as the devs seem to be communicating honestly I'll be sticking around to see how things develop and try to help where I can.

As far as the inner class of information, the way I see it is that the whole project is in the devs hands at this point.  If I can't trust the devs not to abuse the information they have then I should just get out of this project completely.  I don't extend that trust to anyone that happens to grab 0.1% stake though. 

Anyway, I'm going to let all these new ideas sink in while the merger happens and hopefully before long feel comfortable enough to pick up the pom poms and join the fan boy ranks again.

40
I don't want to create a two class forum. 

Rune seems to be new around here (don't recognize the name from before)... I didn't even realize he proposed a merger lol.
Ok good to know, thanks for that.

41
I can see how it would benefit BTS holders through share burn/buyback if we somehow convinced people to do this, but I don't see how the burn is desirable to the actual participants.

The proposal submission and developer bids make sense, but it seems like it would be more efficient to use a decentralized kickstarter model.  You could use the same basic system for proposals and developer bids, but once a bid was submitted a funding period would start for people to commit pledges into escrow.  If it fails to fund, they all get their funds returned, otherwise the development period starts and the funds remain in escrow.  At the end, the investors can vote to either pay the dev the balance, or burn it if they think they've been scammed.
Hmm cool idea.  Though I agree with jsidhu about maybe doing something like release some percentage of the funds to developer with the rest in escrow.  Ideally the amount of funds released would be enough to get the project started but there would be enough escrowed to incentivize the developer to finish the work rather than take what's given and disappear.  Something like 30% released with 70% in escrow?

42
General Discussion / Re: Clarification on Vesting
« on: October 22, 2014, 09:44:20 pm »

So you are saying that liquidity had nothing to do with people paying 6X more to obtain PTS instead of AGS, an otherwise identical investment. I'm sorry I really cannot hold a conversation with you.

Everyone knew what they were getting into. The market created a different value for each. Trying to re-write the rules with a discount now makes little sense.
Apparently nobody knew what they were getting into, this whole process is already re-writing all the rules, not even sure what you are talking about here.

If everyone knew there was going to be a single DAC and that PTS and AGS would be converted into the same token with the same properties and they could buy PTS or AGS with AGS getting 6x the stake for the investment in that DAC do you think anyone at all would have invested in PTS?  I certainly wouldn't have.

As for vesting, if it is going to happen, I think this is a good clarification and a much better strategy then the previous one.

43
General Discussion / Re: BitUSD across DACs
« on: October 22, 2014, 09:33:53 pm »
Not at the moment. Since they are in the middle of their pre-sale it doesn't make sense for them to make any decisions now. Ultimately it would make sense to bring bitshares music into bts that way they can completely focus on making the PeerTracks front end site the best it can be.
I think now is when they need to be making these decisions.  We all now have at least a rough idea of what BTS will look like and the benefits it will offer as well as it's drawbacks.

Not making a decision one way or another creates uncertainty and that's something that investors don't like.  Regardless of what decision they make I think they will see a more success pre-sale versus leaving the decision until after it's all over.

Edit: When I say the need to make the decision now I mean days rather than months down the road, not necessarily this second.

44
You act like being an early adopter is a privilege, that you deserve everything you can get your hands on. Let me tell you it is not. It is a gift, maybe the greatest gift anyone has ever received - and it is time that you take on the responsibility that goes along with it.

I think we are seeing "true colors" from a lot of people, out on display for all the community to see. Who can handle the intensity of the reality of what needs to be done? I am most impressed by the ones that haveaccepted this reality, even though it may have meant a temporary personal "loss". My observation is that those who hold most tightly to their "expectations", are the ones who cry the loudest when they find out the world does not revolve around them.

I'm getting sick of Rune's thinly hidden cheerleading.  The account is not even a month old and this person is condescending to people who have been around far longer, done far more, and bought into something completely different.

He is telling us same cheerleading we heard before he was even around.

It was not an honor or a privilege to have been early investors.  We did this by making the correct decisions.  Make those correct decisions required labor and intelligence.  We worked for it.  You probably came around after seeing BTSX on coinmarketcap.  So save your bullshit for others.

As for everything else it seems fairly close to a done deal.  I'm not happy, but mainly it is over the cultural shift.  It is likely required and likely a good thing.  I just don't understand what exactly these "mergers" mean or what exactly they imply and it is a source of my irritation. The value equation is very complicated and depends on a lot of small factors which have been vague and scattered about.

In the end I'd ask people to start being nicer.  I'm sure Dan never really wanted it to turn out like this, and it really is as much a proactive move as reactive I believe.  Yesterday I had a lot little jabs and snide posts.  It is hard not to be that way.  For me this pivot makes it harder to be a rah-rah fanboy as my vision isn't as much aligned with this single DAC centric one.  I'd imagine it is like being a sports fan (whatever thats like) and seeing your whole team just die on the field.  Ok.. not really.. I'm kidding.. Seriously though I will try to be more positive.  We'll see where she goes as I can't see any other project as worthy of my time.  :|
If you look at the history Rune was in forefront pushing for the merger in the VOTE thread that started all this (I think Rune made the proposal before BM did).  Now that he has what he wants he's trying to get everyone to shut up and just go along as quietly as possible.  To help facilitate this he just has to shake the pompoms a few times to get the +5% crowd going.

On top of that in the confusion he's now also proposing a system where an elite few get access to secret forums for all the inside details from the devs.  At what stake threshold to gain access does he propose, close to around the amount of stake he controls...

It's just a bunch of manipulative bullshit, never let a good crisis go to waste and all that.

Like everyone else, at the very least I've not been bored haha.

45
Who put you in charge?

Thanks but no thanks.

Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 ... 16