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Messages - clockwork

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211
General Discussion / Re: price feeding review
« on: November 22, 2018, 11:48:20 am »

reducing feed price cause more margin calling so need to be careful, increasing feed price do not bring direct hurt to traders.


That is the whole point though.

We are changing the feed price in order to essentially change the effective MCR.

If we have a discount and need to increase demand, effective MCR needs to be increased so that people ARE called and their margins BUY bitUSD from the market thus increasing demand.

If we stop this from happening or those margin calls are way too far from the market price, the effect is lost... this is why BSIP 42 worked well so far when we had a premium against a ranging market, but completely failed to keep the peg on discount on a dropping market (just look at the charts).

It is not nice for those with lower CR but it IS the way to keep a tight peg. And hopefully peopel will learn to keep their CRs high enough.

212
General Discussion / Re: price feeding review
« on: November 22, 2018, 10:29:05 am »
@clockwork Since you are witness and you have the POWER to feed price, my advice is you can feed price based on your interpretation of BSIP42 and then other witnesses can observe your price feed and follow you if it work better.  8)


And I will once I have some time to rewrite the script appropriately. In the meantime I'm putting thoughts up for discussion so we can cut out suggestions that are fundamentally wrong rather than experiment blindly.

 So I would appreciate any comments on the thought process above seeing as it is what stopped me feeding until I could figure it out.

We all saw how the "try it and we'll see how it goes" attitude worked (didn't) during this market turn.

213
General Discussion / Re: price feeding review
« on: November 22, 2018, 09:38:47 am »
last one is too slow to respond to downward movements...

maybe it protects from sudden/big margin calls but peg goes to hell

need to keep a state of market price and factor the market movement into those equations

Quick example:

Let's assume bitUSD  is at premium and negative feedback has brought feed price to 15-20% above market price.

Suddenly, we have a big drop. BTS drops sharply.

People start selling bitUSD to buy BTS. Now bitUSD becomes oversupplied and moves to discount territory.

The algorithms above do not take reversals into account. Especially with that discount protection, the feed price will respond VERY VERY slowly, leading to:

 a) lost peg. A sudden 5% drop in the market with the feed price at +15% will only bring a tiny move downwards from the previous feed price. Thus market to feed price distance will increase which will FURTHER increase discount

b)  as squeeze protection kicks in, margins will pile up and not get eaten. Perhaps some of them shouldn't (by design) but not all of them.

In fact, we saw this during this downtrend with bitUSD going into discount. This means that bitUSD was oversupplied. Which means that effective MCR should be increased to tighten the peg, yet we had positions with a CR of 1.1 with their margins not being eaten.

Pure negative feedback does NOT work. it deals terribly with reversals and is way too slow to respond to sudden market moves.

We need a stateful feed algorithm that ALSO applies the market movement to the price.

e.g. if we're feeding 10% above market and still have a premium, this means that we should feed a bit higher than 10% over market.But if market has also dropped 5%, we need to take that into account and feed LOWER than what we were or completely overshoot.

214
Seeing as I'm not one to hide, I would like to point out that mine and Thom's reasons for not feeding BSIP42 prices on USD and CNY are entirely different.

I don't have much of an issue with BSIP42 in principle. In fact I think it's a good idea in order to tighten the peg.

I only stopped feeding USD and CNY because I thought the BSIP42 adjusted feed I was running needed more work and I hadn't been able to figure it out yet.

The reason I am upset with others is because the majority of the feed scripts disregard the market completely and thus on a sudden bear move ( like we had last couple of days) are slow to respond, leading to a) margins piling up and b) losing the peg anyways.

That said, unlike Thom, I am not against the premise of BSIP42

215
General Discussion / Re: price feeding review
« on: November 20, 2018, 09:29:37 pm »
last one is too slow to respond to downward movements...

maybe it protects from sudden/big margin calls but peg goes to hell

need to keep a state of market price and factor the market movement into those equations

216
General Discussion / Re: price feeding review
« on: November 20, 2018, 08:09:48 am »
so noone is actually using the fucking markets price anywhere? even though abit specifically said that it's DANGEROUS for everyone to use the lazy formula and it was just a stopgap measure?

good job guys...seriously...good job /s

217
Graveyard / Re: [Board Removal] Gravity.io - Abandoned project
« on: November 09, 2018, 10:27:54 am »
UCommunity is *STILL* a graphene project (EOS-based)

but I agree Gravity is no longer relevant here...

Move to graveyard.

218
General Discussion / Re: [eng] Marketing Efforts and Pre-Worker Discussion
« on: November 07, 2018, 10:32:04 am »
Quote
I disagree there. I think the decentralized nature of BitShares is exactly why we need an agency (and further more a full-service one) because coordinating and managing a group of freelancers will be a nightmare.

What i fear is that an agency will only do what majority will be doing and that unique marketing ideas won't be supported anymore with the claim we got an agency who will be responsible for it.

Quote
Again, companies mentioned were just for background. Even then , similar size companies have completely different needs and approaches. And so does BitShares. My point was that BitShares needs an integrated marketing plan addressing many different needs and goals in a coordinated and integrated way. The exact weight and attention to be given to each goal would be part of the marketing proposal. I'm not saying Brand Awareness is more important than userbase growth or anything like that. Simply that we have more than one goals and any marketing proposal should take ALL into account and have a consistent feel across all actions.

My statement was not directed to your reply but to the offer from the news agency


Quote
Agreed. Again, my point is that we CAN offer a larger budget and we SHOULD offer a larger budget as long as there is a serious plan behind it.
My concern is that marketing will be dependent on only one company and will surely limit future marketing ideas heavily.

We agree on all counts. Hence my clause of "knows what the fuck they're doing"

219
General Discussion / Re: [eng] Marketing Efforts and Pre-Worker Discussion
« on: November 07, 2018, 08:36:29 am »
Quote
Unlike Thul3, I don't think the management fee is that high. At our company (and previous agencies I worked at), we regularly charge that or more.

I don't agree on that.Just because big companies are paying this kind of money it doesn't mean there are no way cheaper proprosals which deliver at least the same quality of work.

No disagreement. I am simply judging the proposal on an agency basis rather than a freelancer...

Most big agencies work with these kind of people to do their job and are charging their customers up to 500% for it which they pay to their partners.
They are basicly accuiring customers and forwarding the work to their partnerships..

Depends on the agency really. When I was with OgilvyOne, we pretty much did everything in-house. Yes, mark-ups were higher as well as operational costs but it really showed on quality of work produced. There is a huge cost in coordination/management if you need work done on multiple disciplines (SEM, content, design, media planning/buying etc.) that sometimes goes unnoticed. And that's in companies that actually HAVE a dedicated marketing dept.

I agree that the Media budget is way to low if you want to use it for a 12 months period however i also don't belive that bitshares should go with its marketing to an agency expecially when reading their news website offers.These agancies are basicly needed for complete noobs and they will never bring any good ROI in.

I disagree there. I think the decentralized nature of BitShares is exactly why we need an agency (and further more a full-service one) because coordinating and managing a group of freelancers will be a nightmare.

Unless we create a worker to HIRE a CMO full-time , give him a marketing budget and let him deal with everything. But it will be very very hard finding the right person. Agency is not ideal but it is a better/safer solution for us at this stage imho.

Although I agree that "small" agencies are only useful to complete noobs, I am not referring to "small" agencies.

That was my point about doing a disservice to BitShares by treating it as a small company. We're decentralized and it is not immediately obvious, but our available annual budget and revenue is NOT small-time stuff.

Bitshares has in no way a Budget like Coca-Cola,Microsoft,Lufthansa or any other big company which goal and measureing is totaly diffrent than bitshares.They also calculate in the longrun and are not forced to compete against bigger competitors and thats why they are willing to spend way overpriced ad prices to achive Branding and more important Prestige thinking in public.

Agreed, I wasn't comparing BitShares to them. It was simply a bit of my background. I've worked with companies of all sizes with different marketing needs each time.

Bitshares main goal should be getting massivly new members on DEX who will be trading.
Adding Brand awareness doesn't bring anything if there won't be a nice amount of volume which majority of traders require.

And for this kind of goal there are far more targeted possibilities to gain these traders with way cheaper solutions.
Bitshares should be not focusing on spending money to increase awareness of that brand but focusing on accuring new members generating volume and profit which indirectly means generating a good ROI.Once bitshares will be able to find a marketing solution which will generate a good ROI the growth of bitshares will be quickly as any good ROI can be quickly scaled up.

Partly agree. I agree that this should be our goal. But I also think we need to work on both simultaneously. BitShares suffers from a tremendous awareness and image problem that NEEDS to be addressed at the same time as hard-selling the dex to traders.

However the mentioned strategy above is not getting you a good ROI at all and if you take stratagies from big companies you will need to wait a longer time to get your initial investment back since these companies calculate totaly diffrent as they need total diffrent promotion channels.

Again, companies mentioned were just for background. Even then , similar size companies have completely different needs and approaches. And so does BitShares. My point was that BitShares needs an integrated marketing plan addressing many different needs and goals in a coordinated and integrated way. The exact weight and attention to be given to each goal would be part of the marketing proposal. I'm not saying Brand Awareness is more important than userbase growth or anything like that. Simply that we have more than one goals and any marketing proposal should take ALL into account and have a consistent feel across all actions.

Quote
To be honest, I can understand why/how this proposal came about as I considered this as an exercise myself  and realized it would cost around 5k USD in manhours  to only come up with the brief/RFP  that a worker proposal should answer.

Completly agree on that but the nonsense bla bla to explain everything like talking to a complete noob is also frustrating since its just nice words without any meaning.
Its just poor time wasting.

Personly with this kind of budget i would spend part of it on unconventional marketing (something like guerilla marketing for the internet) as they do exist and stop going after the herd.


My old mentor always claimed :
People who run after the herd will always eat only their crap.

Agreed. Again, my point is that we CAN offer a larger budget and we SHOULD offer a larger budget as long as there is a serious plan behind it. I'm a big fan of guerilla marketing but always in combination with other approaches. I would not mind seeing a 300-400k /year marketing proposal or more for BitShares as long as whoever placed it knew what the fuck they were doing.


And watching the prices the herd is paying for so called crypto related websites like cointelegraph,bitcoin.com ads distribution,CMC etc its just insane.The prices of pseudo crypto influencers are the biggest overhyped solutions and still companies with no knowledge about real marketing are willing to pay it.
As example a known youtube channel with average 5k views per clip is demanding $10k.

Bitshares should be also thinking about creating their own news distribution channels as the current one are only informing a handfull of people

Indeed it's becoming a joke. Seems like the instant the word crypto is mentioned prices just go 10x up.

Agreed on the news distribution channels and I meant to mention it before as well.. Our big problem there is that our decentralized nature makes it a bitch to agree on content and what's "official" so to speak.

220
General Discussion / Re: [eng] Marketing Efforts and Pre-Worker Discussion
« on: November 07, 2018, 06:42:20 am »
Hello everyone,

After going over the PDF, I'm afraid I'll have to agree with everyone before me. This is not a good proposal by any stretch.

It's a shame really because when I heard the guys at BitFest i had higher hopes for this proposal.

However there seems to be a complete lack of understanding/research on BitShares itself and the crypto market in general and offering this proposal without proper research does not bode well for results.

Unlike Thul3, I don't think the management fee is that high. At our company (and previous agencies I worked at), we regularly charge that or more. However the scope of work and deliverables are completely different. We charge that kind of money for  SEO and social media work on VERY competitive sectors (like tourism in greece).

Essentially this proposal is for a website and associated SEO/SEM.

We already have a website with a new one coming up and a worker to manage it. What's more, I would argue that ApAsia's "basic" SEO being done right now (see: https://github.com/bitshares/bitshares.org/issues/3 for example) is on par with the work they're suggesting.

There is no mention of budget for creative work. There is no way in hell copy-content writing and visual;s/creatives for online ads can be included at that price.

The media budget is WAY too low.

Assuming digital only focus and a necessary for growth marketing budget of 12-15% of total annual budget (Let me remind you that across development,infrastructure,website etc. workers we budget close to 2m  USD /year) with at least 50-60%  on media spend , media budget should be at a minimum of 120-150k/year.

Furthermore, I see no real KPIs and evaluation methodology in this proposal. Absolutely NO mention of analytics and tools to evaluate and enhance marketing performance. And absolutely NO strategy on how to KEEP those users if/when we get them.

It's a half-assed, "Let's funnel people to a website through basic SEM and hope some stick around" kind of thing.

To be honest, I can understand why/how this proposal came about as I considered this as an exercise myself  and realized it would cost around 5k USD in manhours  to only come up with the brief/RFP  that a worker proposal should answer.

As I've said before, it's almost to the point where we need a worker proposal just to fund the process of drafting a marketing RFP for a marketing worker to pitch against.

The industry as a whole, and BitShares as a platform/player in the industry itself is  NOT small-town stuff and we'd be doing ourselves a tremendous disservice by treating it as such.

BitShares needs a BIG and SERIOUS marketing proposal and seriously hope someone steps up. Unfortunately I don't have the time to do it and I'm way happier dealing in the dev side of things. I spend way too much time on the marketing side at my day job and can't handle more of that.

That's my 0.02 BTS :)

DISCLAIMER: I have been working in multi-national digital agencies since 2003 across almost all Digital marketing disciplines (web dev, strategy,media planning etc.) and have worked with clients such as Coca Cola, Siemens, IBM, Lufthansa, Aegean Air, Pizza Hut, Vodafone, Microsoft, Vichy, Estee Lauder, Clinique, Heineken and many many more.
You all also know my crypto knowledge and involvement. STILL, with all that combined, I consider BitShares marketing a very demanding undertaking that requires a lot of research work and focus.

221
Another update:

I have just paid out travel and accommodation reimbursement costs to Michael, Annemieke and Ryan for a total of 3571.70 USD. (Some luggage costs still pending)

The budgeted amount was 5400 USD so already 1800 USD saved.

3571.70 USD was bought for 36131 BTS from the worker's balance (avg price 0.0989 USD/BTS)

Total spent so far = 252575 BTS
Worker total funding =  369250 BTS
Remaining worker balance is now: 116675 BTS


222
Another update folks!

The 4th invitation slot goes to MichaelX who will be joining us in Athens.

I think this will be a fairly good mix after all.

a committee member
a major proxy
the core team coordinator
and the voted spokesperson

I can confidently say we'll all do our best to represent BitShares and spread the word as much as we possibly can while there.

223
This turns into a general question: Should the committee ever force-transfer (revert) wrong transfers even if they can be proven without any doubt?

If the question to that answer is "yes", there are a couple things that need to be done *BEFORE* actions can taken:
* 100% prove that the transfer was "wrong" and a reversal is legally and morally o.k.
* a procedure as to WHO does WHAT in case of a refersal (e.g. should the committee become intermediary of funds for a few weeks?)
* Fees need to be paid because it is a manual process - how much? who would get that fee? 50%+1 of committee need to agree still!

If the answer is "no", then we need to
* educate people more about the finality of transfers (i thin we do a good job at that already)
* should committee opt out of the "allow issuer to overwrite transfers"? permission to end this once and for all?

I'd opt for no.
Saying yes even once opens a big can of worms and means we'd have to evaluate every such request. Committee could be DDoS'd :D

If there is no real reason why "allow issuer to override transfers" has been left on (@abit?) i'd be in favour of disabling it.

224
Another update:

We have been listed/mentioned under the sponsor section on decentralized.com.

Currently finalizing the agenda with them.
They cancelled the relevant panel we had planned so I convinced them to upgrade the spokesperson's participation from panelist to speaker.

So now we get TWO speaker slots.

Spokesperson will have a talk in the "Blockchain and Financial Services" session.
Ryan will have a talk under one of the "Blockchain Technology Advances" sessions.

Getting them the necessary information to finalize the proper listings & bios asap.

These are fantastic news and exactly what the BitShares Blockchain needs for years. Representation at international conferences with sponsoring, booths and good content. This will open the eyes of thousands of blockchain enthusiasts to the great BitSahres tech. Thank you @clockwork @fox and @annemike for organizing this sponsorship!

:)

225
Thanks for your work to organize this!

You're welcome :)

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