Author Topic: VOTE DAC Just Got More Interesting  (Read 19078 times)

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Offline vikram

Locking to avoid further confusion. Refer instead to subsequent threads:
« Last Edit: October 20, 2014, 08:45:39 pm by vikram »

Offline stuartcharles

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I love this thread, and this is my first post in it as I have been very busy with other maters and also b/c the conversation has been deep and fast paced I wanted to be sure I understood what's really at play here before jumping in.

I've been somewhat troubled since bytemaster said:
Quote
I attempt to avoid labeling my views as labels carry baggage.

 I submit for your consideration the following unprovable and impossible to disprove hypothesis: there is only one consciousness and that consciousness is me.

As was pointed out previously, this is the philosophy of solipsism, a term I wasn't familiar with though I'm keenly interested in philosophy. As you yourself pointed out bytemaster, it is pointless to argue for or against this perspective. Given what you are doing here it is very surprising you hold this view, and I'm left to ponder how such an intelligent person as you finds value in such a perspective.

Further, you work in a field where labels are everything. Actually that's what language is all about so avoiding the label of solipsism is just a symptom of rejecting objective reality. You defined your belief quite well and that is what everyone accepts as the basic definition of solipsism.

You appeal to this community through rational, objective reason, yet you deny the participants in it our very own autonomous, individual identities.

I am curious about how much of an interest in philosophy you have, and how long you've been pursuing such knowledge.

It appears to me we both share strong libertarian / anarchist perspectives, for which I have grown to have a strong respect for you. However, it's causing me some cognitive dissonance as I am an objectivist and choose to believe in an absolute, objective truth.

I applaud your willingness to put yourself and your beliefs out here and to be vulnerable. You continue to amaze me, as well as puzzle me with how your mind works.

Thank you for sharing.

I can deal with everyone as if I am dealing with a part of myself.  I seek to find views without internal contradictions.   I cannot prove that there exists anything outside of myself Due to what I like to call the matrix effect.   

I recognize that there is only one basis upon which to hold a belief and that is if it produces better results in my life.   

Thus I have come to a conclusion that is the only conclusion that doesn't have a contradiction That I am aware of at this point in time.  Or perhaps has fewer contradictions then other views I might have. 

I came to this view as a result of meditation and attempting to separate who I am from the thought and story of my life.   

I grew up objective and Christian.  Stan of course isn't happy with my departure   

Why choose to believe in an objective reality that you cannot prove exists?

Thinking that you think i am a figment of your imagination gives me an interesting perspective of you. Its quite complementary for you to think of us like that. Maybe it would be a better world if we all viewed each other as integral parts of our selves. I think i will try it for a while, but i will choose to think we are all one, part of the same consciousness but some how divided and separated by the physical world.

Offline Thom

Why choose to believe in an objective reality that you cannot prove exists?

I don't really care what people believe in as long as it doesn't affect their behavior in a way that I view as undesirable. I may not agree with all of the beliefs you hold as you have expressed them in these posts, but ultimately I am judging you by your actions and decisions. And what I can say is that I am very impressed and pleased with the decisions you have been making and the way you have been acting in the context of directing this complicated project and ecosystem. And for that reason I am happy to continue supporting this project with you in the leadership position. Now if your beliefs change your behavior considerably, for example if your metaphysical solipsism makes you think you can just will BitShares into a trillion dollar market cap without having to do any real world work as long as you meditate hard enough, then that would be a completely different story. But I see no reason to fear something like that since it would be such a radical departure from how you have been behaving thus far.

But to more directly answer your question, I would respond by asking you why you choose to believe in a subjective reality that you cannot prove exists. I actually know the answer to that question, you already answered it:
So I choose to adopt the views that make life most enjoyable... and I can honestly say that switching perspectives lets you see the world in a whole new way.  The thought of adopting any kind of objective view of reality at this point in time seems painful and "dead".   
And as I said before that is fair. Similarly, I believe in an objective reality because it just makes more sense to me (it is more palatable to me). Ultimately, these beliefs don't really matter because they are in the realm of metaphysics (cannot prove or disprove them). What matters is that which is in the physical realm (the things we can prove or disprove using rationality and the scientific method). This is why I don't really care what you believe as long as it isn't influencing your behavior to be against my own interests.
+5% +5% +5% +5% +5% +5% +5% +5% +5% +5% +5% +5% +5% +5% +5% +5% +5% +5% +5% +5%
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Offline Thom

I too was once a very strong believer in the "absolute truth" of Christianity, and devoted much of my time digging deeply into scriptural wisdom. After about 20 years on that path I began to see the contradictions within that belief system and I came to the realization I could no longer reason those contradictions away or accept them. I came to see them as a self detonating philosophy and belief in the irrational.

I sure wasted a lot of valuable time in pursuit of truth that I'll never get back.

Quote
Why choose to believe in an objective reality that you cannot prove exists?
Your statement is self detonating, if you reject solipsism. Objective reality is what you can prove exists through your senses. Religion, like solipsism, cannot be proven. A negative assertion cannot be proven. Both religion and solipsism have at their core faith that is counter to sense reality.

The Matrix is one of my all time favorite movies. It is very thought provoking. And the idea that what we believe is reality is just an artificial virtual reality is intriguing but has no practical value and no proof in the form of dejavu or a Morpheous who has experienced and has proof for an outer reality. If such evidence existed would it be worth pursuing? How would you know you are finally "out of the matrix"?

The Matrix is a metaphor, and is useful to describe belief systems of all types.

It's interesting that you are leading an effort to engineer a system of measuring and structuring social consensus using objective tools, yet hold a very subjective and self centered perspective of reality. Trying to understand how that can reside in one head causes me cognitive dissonance so how you manage it is beyond my comprehension.

Yet here we are trying to work out consensus and build something of practical value to benefit the majority of participants.

I have decided to begin writing a book about bitshares, and I've set my goal to complete it by 1/1/2015. Out of necessity it will be more visionary than howto, as things in this space move too rapidly for the later. The goal of the book is educate people about the exciting benefits of blockchain technology and describe how DPoS is a sustainable model to achieve those benefits. I hope I can cover the subject well enough to stimulate some interest that will help make this part of our objective, shared reality.   
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Offline arhag

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Why choose to believe in an objective reality that you cannot prove exists?

I don't really care what people believe in as long as it doesn't affect their behavior in a way that I view as undesirable. I may not agree with all of the beliefs you hold as you have expressed them in these posts, but ultimately I am judging you by your actions and decisions. And what I can say is that I am very impressed and pleased with the decisions you have been making and the way you have been acting in the context of directing this complicated project and ecosystem. And for that reason I am happy to continue supporting this project with you in the leadership position. Now if your beliefs change your behavior considerably, for example if your metaphysical solipsism makes you think you can just will BitShares into a trillion dollar market cap without having to do any real world work as long as you meditate hard enough, then that would be a completely different story. But I see no reason to fear something like that since it would be such a radical departure from how you have been behaving thus far.

But to more directly answer your question, I would respond by asking you why you choose to believe in a subjective reality that you cannot prove exists. I actually know the answer to that question, you already answered it:
So I choose to adopt the views that make life most enjoyable... and I can honestly say that switching perspectives lets you see the world in a whole new way.  The thought of adopting any kind of objective view of reality at this point in time seems painful and "dead".   
And as I said before that is fair. Similarly, I believe in an objective reality because it just makes more sense to me (it is more palatable to me). Ultimately, these beliefs don't really matter because they are in the realm of metaphysics (cannot prove or disprove them). What matters is that which is in the physical realm (the things we can prove or disprove using rationality and the scientific method). This is why I don't really care what you believe as long as it isn't influencing your behavior to be against my own interests.

Offline Ander

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I think its probably a good idea not to mix philosophy and investing, lest we drive away people from bitshares based on idealogical differences. :)
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Offline bytemaster


I love this thread, and this is my first post in it as I have been very busy with other maters and also b/c the conversation has been deep and fast paced I wanted to be sure I understood what's really at play here before jumping in.

I've been somewhat troubled since bytemaster said:
Quote
I attempt to avoid labeling my views as labels carry baggage.

 I submit for your consideration the following unprovable and impossible to disprove hypothesis: there is only one consciousness and that consciousness is me.

As was pointed out previously, this is the philosophy of solipsism, a term I wasn't familiar with though I'm keenly interested in philosophy. As you yourself pointed out bytemaster, it is pointless to argue for or against this perspective. Given what you are doing here it is very surprising you hold this view, and I'm left to ponder how such an intelligent person as you finds value in such a perspective.

Further, you work in a field where labels are everything. Actually that's what language is all about so avoiding the label of solipsism is just a symptom of rejecting objective reality. You defined your belief quite well and that is what everyone accepts as the basic definition of solipsism.

You appeal to this community through rational, objective reason, yet you deny the participants in it our very own autonomous, individual identities.

I am curious about how much of an interest in philosophy you have, and how long you've been pursuing such knowledge.

It appears to me we both share strong libertarian / anarchist perspectives, for which I have grown to have a strong respect for you. However, it's causing me some cognitive dissonance as I am an objectivist and choose to believe in an absolute, objective truth.

I applaud your willingness to put yourself and your beliefs out here and to be vulnerable. You continue to amaze me, as well as puzzle me with how your mind works.

Thank you for sharing.

I can deal with everyone as if I am dealing with a part of myself.  I seek to find views without internal contradictions.   I cannot prove that there exists anything outside of myself Due to what I like to call the matrix effect.   

I recognize that there is only one basis upon which to hold a belief and that is if it produces better results in my life.   

Thus I have come to a conclusion that is the only conclusion that doesn't have a contradiction That I am aware of at this point in time.  Or perhaps has fewer contradictions then other views I might have. 

I came to this view as a result of meditation and attempting to separate who I am from the thought and story of my life.   

I grew up objective and Christian.  Stan of course isn't happy with my departure   

Why choose to believe in an objective reality that you cannot prove exists?   
For the latest updates checkout my blog: http://bytemaster.bitshares.org
Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract between myself and anyone else.   These are merely my opinions and I reserve the right to change them at any time.

Offline Ander

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Thom, I dont think that Bytemaster actually believes in solipism, he was just using it as an example.
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Offline Thom

I love this thread, and this is my first post in it as I have been very busy with other maters and also b/c the conversation has been deep and fast paced I wanted to be sure I understood what's really at play here before jumping in.

I've been somewhat troubled since bytemaster said:
Quote
I attempt to avoid labeling my views as labels carry baggage.

 I submit for your consideration the following unprovable and impossible to disprove hypothesis: there is only one consciousness and that consciousness is me.

As was pointed out previously, this is the philosophy of solipsism, a term I wasn't familiar with though I'm keenly interested in philosophy. As you yourself pointed out bytemaster, it is pointless to argue for or against this perspective. Given what you are doing here it is very surprising you hold this view, and I'm left to ponder how such an intelligent person as you finds value in such a perspective.

Further, you work in a field where labels are everything. Actually that's what language is all about so avoiding the label of solipsism is just a symptom of rejecting objective reality. You defined your belief quite well and that is what everyone accepts as the basic definition of solipsism.

You appeal to this community through rational, objective reason, yet you deny the participants in it our very own autonomous, individual identities.

I am curious about how much of an interest in philosophy you have, and how long you've been pursuing such knowledge.

It appears to me we both share strong libertarian / anarchist perspectives, for which I have grown to have a strong respect for you. However, it's causing me some cognitive dissonance as I am an objectivist and choose to believe in an absolute, objective truth.

I applaud your willingness to put yourself and your beliefs out here and to be vulnerable. You continue to amaze me, as well as puzzle me with how your mind works.

Thank you for sharing.
« Last Edit: October 20, 2014, 05:21:10 pm by Thom »
Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere - MLK |  Verbaltech2 Witness Reports: https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php/topic,23902.0.html

Offline xh3

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Interesting,   +5% to everyone in this thread.  This voting DAC is very interesting.  The process of conducting a vote can be mapped across the same problem space as crypto, DACs, etc. It's trust, it's ledgers, it's double-spending, it's transparency, it's auditable records, it's consensus.
 I think the reason the philosophy flows in this discussion on voting, is because we're in a problem space that includes much of what it means to operate as a human being.  How do you come to fair and honest decisions in a world where  every actor has  different realities, opinions, values?  And really, this question exists inside, outside, and between humans.  It exists between groups of humans, it exists in every exchange a human makes.  The solution, IMO, is to find ways to unlock the genius of nature, and harness the wisdom of crowds.

I think a lot can be understood by extrapolating out from our biological imperatives.  Our nature is directing what we find interesting, pleasurable, exciting, worthy, etc.  Our biological machinery rewards us for doing things that help the species.  A major reason why people solve problems.  Think about it.  Someone who writes a DAC, a farmer, an artist, a policeman, a politician, or even a guy who joins a hate group, someone who drills for oil, works at the NSA, etc., are all interpreting how to help the species and getting paid in pleasure by their biological machinery.

The problems being solved here are the same problems that all biological systems have to solve.

Its *PRIVACY*... that the government says is legitimate.   The most challenged politically challenging issue with crypto is the *PRIVACY* it allows... and now with the voting DAC the same people that advocate against financial privacy are now in favor of developing the exact same technology for VOTING privacy.   

+5% 

Privacy is key in crypto.  Privacy is power in politics. People in power are highly incentivised to remain in power and you can extrapolate out from there.  I just hope your ready for the backlash when you actually start delivering people the option to have privacy and freedom.  People in power do not want their subjects to have that, as it interferes with their ability to rule.

Offline Stan

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This thread really shows the zeitgeist of the whole crypto community, maybe as a symptom of the global zeitgeist.

I don't see what function transparent vote-buying would serve. Not presuming that this DAC is strictly for national votes, but could be used for all kinds of elections, what is the goal of this setup? It seems awfully strange and it's real underpinning purpose is to determine who with the deepest pockets wants something the most. This does not seem like a system designed to get to the most legitimate results.

As somebody who has seen and experienced Swiss, Kosovar, Albanian, and US democracy, the vote-buying setup seems the least productive or even interesting of all.

It seems that bytemaster isn't taking into consideration second order effects of political systems. Nonetheless, this seems like an interesteing social and technological experiment. Might I have misinterpreted something?

Please don't confuse a discussion of all the innovative voting concepts that VOTE can support with any attempt to project one of these models onto any particular political system.  VOTE will need to support all existing major voting models too.  Presumably even Chicago-style voting.  :)
Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract of any kind.   These are merely my opinions which I reserve the right to change at any time.

Offline bitsapphire

This thread really shows the zeitgeist of the whole crypto community, maybe as a symptom of the global zeitgeist.

I don't see what function transparent vote-buying would serve. Not presuming that this DAC is strictly for national votes, but could be used for all kinds of elections, what is the goal of this setup? It seems awfully strange and it's real underpinning purpose is to determine who with the deepest pockets wants something the most. This does not seem like a system designed to get to the most legitimate results.

As somebody who has seen and experienced Swiss, Kosovar, Albanian, and US democracy, the vote-buying setup seems the least productive or even interesting of all.

It seems that bytemaster isn't taking into consideration second order effects of political systems. Nonetheless, this seems like an interesteing social and technological experiment. Might I have misinterpreted something?
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Offline emailtooaj

Funny how that works!


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Offline bytemaster

Interesting,   +5% to everyone in this thread.  This voting DAC is very interesting.  The process of conducting a vote can be mapped across the same problem space as crypto, DACs, etc. It's trust, it's ledgers, it's double-spending, it's transparency, it's auditable records, it's consensus.
 I think the reason the philosophy flows in this discussion on voting, is because we're in a problem space that includes much of what it means to operate as a human being.  How do you come to fair and honest decisions in a world where  every actor has  different realities, opinions, values?  And really, this question exists inside, outside, and between humans.  It exists between groups of humans, it exists in every exchange a human makes.  The solution, IMO, is to find ways to unlock the genius of nature, and harness the wisdom of crowds.

I think a lot can be understood by extrapolating out from our biological imperatives.  Our nature is directing what we find interesting, pleasurable, exciting, worthy, etc.  Our biological machinery rewards us for doing things that help the species.  A major reason why people solve problems.  Think about it.  Someone who writes a DAC, a farmer, an artist, a policeman, a politician, or even a guy who joins a hate group, someone who drills for oil, works at the NSA, etc., are all interpreting how to help the species and getting paid in pleasure by their biological machinery.

The problems being solved here are the same problems that all biological systems have to solve.

Its *PRIVACY*... that the government says is legitimate.   The most challenged politically challenging issue with crypto is the *PRIVACY* it allows... and now with the voting DAC the same people that advocate against financial privacy are now in favor of developing the exact same technology for VOTING privacy.   
For the latest updates checkout my blog: http://bytemaster.bitshares.org
Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract between myself and anyone else.   These are merely my opinions and I reserve the right to change them at any time.