Author Topic: An open challenge to Bytemaster  (Read 10420 times)

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Offline bitmarket

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Agreed.  Measured results trumps opinion.   It sounds like you have had great success which is awesome.

In measured ways, pointing out points of improvement for bitcoin can be ok, but the constant bitcoin is "us vs them" and shitcanning bitcoin strategy is a poor one in IMO.
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Offline Empirical1.1

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Edit: Given that you have a personal relationship and friendship with these guys, I can see why you personally wouldn't want to be seen as being involved with a direct Bitcoin competitor. It's possible though that this dynamic could cloud your objectivity with regards to how BitShares should approach marketing.

It is a valid question.  I believe my thoughts are grounded logic and strategy though. 

I recall an article from a former senior management type from Skype who said behind closed doors they knew Skype was a direct competitor and had superior technology and costs than existing telephony technology. Their mission was to replace that industry. Strategically they decided to not position themselves as a telephony company at all for fear of regulatory obstacles created by the legacy telephony lobbyists. All be it for a different reason it is certainly a valid option to not go head to head with the 400 pound gorilla in the right circumstances.

In our case.
1. Our next wave of users, developers, eveangelists, marketers, and investors are most likely to come from the bitcoin space.
2. Every bitcoin enthusiast has been told by the majority of their friends that they were crazy for buying bitcoin and that they would lose money. There is tremendous ego involved to see bitcoin succeed for that reason, not just financial. Telling their friends they were right about crypto but wrong about bitcoin will not cut it at the next BBQ.
3. It costs a lot of money which we do not have to get the attention of many eyeballs and educate them on our brand new industry. Bitcoin enthusiasts are fanatical and will happily read any article that speaks highly of bitcoin posted on reddit. That means lots of free eyeballs that are the right eyeballs.

In my opinion it is strategically foolish to not take advantage of 3, by not acknowledging 2 and thus missing out on 1.

Btw, how many people have you successfully sold the concept of bitshares too?  Have you had much success with "we are better than bitcoin?" (Genuine question, not cheeky at all.)

Thanks for the challenging debate. I read my reply this morning and thought it was a bit confrontational, apologies.

I'll answer your last question first, on Bitcointalk over the year, quite a few people for sure, even a couple that have messaged me to say as a much & ask me questions etc. I don't always say we're better than Bitcoin but when I'm selling the strengths of anything I'll compare it with the weaknesses of a competitor.

Friends & acquaintances  knew I did well on Bitcoin (in @$40 mostly out $500-700) & thought I was crazy at the time but they're interested in my opinion now. They mainly want to know what the next big thing is, like they just want to buy, not understand, so I would say 'it's BitSharesX, as excited as I was about Bitcoin, this is better...' Then some want to know why Bitcoin is doing badly and why they should invest and then I explain the weaknesses of Bitcoin and the advantages of BitAssets.

However I respect your input, really like what you've done so far, also looking at the feedback here & on NullStreet there seems to be some consensus for your approach of explaining why we're complimentary more and why we can enhance the Bitcoin experience. So personally I'm happy then if people want to try doing more of that and measure the results.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2015, 02:08:24 pm by Empirical1.1 »

Offline suwoder

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Edit: Given that you have a personal relationship and friendship with these guys, I can see why you personally wouldn't want to be seen as being involved with a direct Bitcoin competitor. It's possible though that this dynamic could cloud your objectivity with regards to how BitShares should approach marketing.

It is a valid question.  I believe my thoughts are grounded logic and strategy though. 

I recall an article from a former senior management type from Skype who said behind closed doors they knew Skype was a direct competitor and had superior technology and costs than existing telephony technology. Their mission was to replace that industry. Strategically they decided to not position themselves as a telephony company at all for fear of regulatory obstacles created by the legacy telephony lobbyists. All be it for a different reason it is certainly a valid option to not go head to head with the 400 pound gorilla in the right circumstances.

In our case.
1. Our next wave of users, developers, eveangelists, marketers, and investors are most likely to come from the bitcoin space.
2. Every bitcoin enthusiast has been told by the majority of their friends that they were crazy for buying bitcoin and that they would lose money. There is tremendous ego involved to see bitcoin succeed for that reason, not just financial. Telling their friends they were right about crypto but wrong about bitcoin will not cut it at the next BBQ.
3. It costs a lot of money which we do not have to get the attention of many eyeballs and educate them on our brand new industry. Bitcoin enthusiasts are fanatical and will happily read any article that speaks highly of bitcoin posted on reddit. That means lots of free eyeballs that are the right eyeballs.

In my opinion it is strategically foolish to not take advantage of 3, by not acknowledging 2 and thus missing out on 1.

Btw, how many people have you successfully sold the concept of bitshares too?  Have you had much success with "we are better than bitcoin?" (Genuine question, not cheeky at all.)

agree no more  +5% +5% +5%

Offline bitmarket

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Edit: Given that you have a personal relationship and friendship with these guys, I can see why you personally wouldn't want to be seen as being involved with a direct Bitcoin competitor. It's possible though that this dynamic could cloud your objectivity with regards to how BitShares should approach marketing.

It is a valid question.  I believe my thoughts are grounded logic and strategy though. 

I recall an article from a former senior management type from Skype who said behind closed doors they knew Skype was a direct competitor and had superior technology and costs than existing telephony technology. Their mission was to replace that industry. Strategically they decided to not position themselves as a telephony company at all for fear of regulatory obstacles created by the legacy telephony lobbyists. All be it for a different reason it is certainly a valid option to not go head to head with the 400 pound gorilla in the right circumstances.

In our case.
1. Our next wave of users, developers, eveangelists, marketers, and investors are most likely to come from the bitcoin space.
2. Every bitcoin enthusiast has been told by the majority of their friends that they were crazy for buying bitcoin and that they would lose money. There is tremendous ego involved to see bitcoin succeed for that reason, not just financial. Telling their friends they were right about crypto but wrong about bitcoin will not cut it at the next BBQ.
3. It costs a lot of money which we do not have to get the attention of many eyeballs and educate them on our brand new industry. Bitcoin enthusiasts are fanatical and will happily read any article that speaks highly of bitcoin posted on reddit. That means lots of free eyeballs that are the right eyeballs.

In my opinion it is strategically foolish to not take advantage of 3, by not acknowledging 2 and thus missing out on 1.

Btw, how many people have you successfully sold the concept of bitshares too?  Have you had much success with "we are better than bitcoin?" (Genuine question, not cheeky at all.)
 
« Last Edit: January 09, 2015, 09:29:50 am by bitmarket »
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Offline santaclause102

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Beyond Bitcoin is very bad slogan! We need to support from Bitcoin crowd, bts is distributed bitcoin exchange. There are common interests.

Beyond Freedom is a better slogan ,perhaps

Same conclusion I get from big time Bitcoin investors in China .
They lost interest when they saw the articles about how Bitshares can replace Bitcoin .

I agree that the titles really don't need Bitcoin in them. I also think we should be polite and respectful. I just don't like the approach of avoiding the weaknesses of your competitor for fear of offending them.

I think it's patronising and disingenuous to frame yourself as a complimentary addition to the Bitcoin ecosystem when the intelligent people with capital are investors capable of making rational decisions based on direct comparisons.

As an example how do we promote remittances if not as a direct competitor to Bitcoin? Are we supposed to keep this competitive advantage quiet?

A post I made earlier today...


Quote
they're very excited about the potential Bitcoin has for remittance particularly in the Philippines, as $20 Billion annually is remitted there, unfortunately for them our dollar stable, 10 second, 1 cent transactions, interest paying BitUSD & the relationships & offramps John Underwood specifically has there, crushes their model. It's a huge market that BitShares is going to be vastly superior in. The approach of not explaining that, pretending to be complimentary, hoping they connect the dots and when they do say 'shhh, now that you' ve converted be vewy vewy quiet, nobody is aloud to openly make direct comparisons about BitShares having a better business model, we have to pwetend that our Bitcoin crushing remittance model is actually a complimentary addition to Bitcoin...' Is the wrong approach to me.

If you have a superior product and can back it up, make direct comparisons & intelligent, mature males with capital will consider it. They're investors and that's advertising.

If we don't a competitor will come along and say 'hey we can do the remittance job with a stable dollar asset, for 1c in 10 seconds and we have offramps in the Philippines' while Bitcoin is volatile, takes longer, charges more and has no banking relationships there' - People can see the light quickly with such a stark comparison which we will have failed to make if everyone took the soft sell approach.

I think both methods have a place but advertising your strengths vs. the leading competitor is just advertising, there's not many successful Trojan Horse campaigns I can recall and if there are, I would say they're the exception rather than the rule.

It will be an interesting challenge to try a few articles in the vein BitMarket suggests and I know that approach works very well for him. Personally though I'm going to continue to be clear and direct about our advantages as well as the weaknesses of Bitcoin when engaging people.

Let me give you two direct quotes from very serious people in the bitcoin space and good friends of mine.

1. A well known bitcoin investor and evengalist. Seed investor in many of the biggest bitcoin businesses that you all know the names of and a good friend was asked to proof read bitshares 101 for me.  He is a bitcoin multimillionaire and then some. He has flown me around in his plane. Bear in mind he is a good friend and would probably read a childrens book if I wrote it out of courtesy.

"I am not reading it. The guys at bitshares hate bitcoin."

2. Owner and developer of one of the best bitcoin wallets and a friend. He asked me to be a investor in his wallet because or my rep and ability to market. When I mentioned I was excited about bitshares his response was... "Oh dude stay away from them. They piss a lot of people off. If you align yourself with them you will feel it next time you are at a conference." 

Hence bitshares.tv and this challenge.   If we can repair bitshares reputation, I can bring a lot of people in.   But as long as we are banging on about, "proof of waste" "Proof of work is dead", "The one chain to rule them all", "bitshares makes bitcoin redundant" "bitcoins demise is inevitable because of its inefficiencies", "beyond bitcoin" we will be shunned by the demographic that should be most responsive to us.
+5% for not being ignorant of social and psychological realities!
Adoption of a new technology is 50% technology and 50% a social phenomenon, at least.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2015, 08:37:02 am by delulo »

Offline amencon

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Wow. Did you get to capture leads from all that traffic bytemaster?

What do you mean by "capture leads"?   

Everything we received in the past 48 hours (one of my biggest days) has resulted in a cookie being delivered to every visitor as part of our referral program.   I am working to optimize my blog to start funneling users into BitShares.
Are you using those cookies for Google remarketing ad campaigns or are funds for direct advertising not being used currently?

I only ask because at my last job we saw much higher conversion success ratios with our remarketing ads than general banner ads.  I'm not sure if Google adsense campaigns will be worth the cost in general for Bitshares but if one was I'd bet it would be a remarketing campaign.

Offline Empirical1.1

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Beyond Bitcoin is very bad slogan! We need to support from Bitcoin crowd, bts is distributed bitcoin exchange. There are common interests.

Beyond Freedom is a better slogan ,perhaps

Same conclusion I get from big time Bitcoin investors in China .
They lost interest when they saw the articles about how Bitshares can replace Bitcoin .

I agree that the titles really don't need Bitcoin in them. I also think we should be polite and respectful. I just don't like the approach of avoiding the weaknesses of your competitor for fear of offending them.

I think it's patronising and disingenuous to frame yourself as a complimentary addition to the Bitcoin ecosystem when the intelligent people with capital are investors capable of making rational decisions based on direct comparisons.

As an example how do we promote remittances if not as a direct competitor to Bitcoin? Are we supposed to keep this competitive advantage quiet?

A post I made earlier today...


Quote
they're very excited about the potential Bitcoin has for remittance particularly in the Philippines, as $20 Billion annually is remitted there, unfortunately for them our dollar stable, 10 second, 1 cent transactions, interest paying BitUSD & the relationships & offramps John Underwood specifically has there, crushes their model. It's a huge market that BitShares is going to be vastly superior in. The approach of not explaining that, pretending to be complimentary, hoping they connect the dots and when they do say 'shhh, now that you' ve converted be vewy vewy quiet, nobody is aloud to openly make direct comparisons about BitShares having a better business model, we have to pwetend that our Bitcoin crushing remittance model is actually a complimentary addition to Bitcoin...' Is the wrong approach to me.

If you have a superior product and can back it up, make direct comparisons & intelligent, mature males with capital will consider it. They're investors and that's advertising.

If we don't a competitor will come along and say 'hey we can do the remittance job with a stable dollar asset, for 1c in 10 seconds and we have offramps in the Philippines' while Bitcoin is volatile, takes longer, charges more and has no banking relationships there' - People can see the light quickly with such a stark comparison which we will have failed to make if everyone took the soft sell approach.

I think both methods have a place but advertising your strengths vs. the leading competitor is just advertising, there's not many successful Trojan Horse campaigns I can recall and if there are, I would say they're the exception rather than the rule.

It will be an interesting challenge to try a few articles in the vein BitMarket suggests and I know that approach works very well for him. Personally though I'm going to continue to be clear and direct about our advantages as well as the weaknesses of Bitcoin when engaging people.

Let me give you two direct quotes from very serious people in the bitcoin space and good friends of mine.

1. A well known bitcoin investor and evengalist. Seed investor in many of the biggest bitcoin businesses that you all know the names of and a good friend was asked to proof read bitshares 101 for me.  He is a bitcoin multimillionaire and then some. He has flown me around in his plane. Bear in mind he is a good friend and would probably read a childrens book if I wrote it out of courtesy.

"I am not reading it. The guys at bitshares hate bitcoin."

2. Owner and developer of one of the best bitcoin wallets and a friend. He asked me to be a investor in his wallet because or my rep and ability to market. When I mentioned I was excited about bitshares his response was... "Oh dude stay away from them. They piss a lot of people off. If you align yourself with them you will feel it next time you are at a conference." 

Hence bitshares.tv and this challenge.   If I can repair bitshares reputation, I can bring a lot of people in.   But as long as we are banging on about, "proof of waste" "Proof of work is dead", "The one chain to rule them all", "bitshares makes bitcoin redundant" "bitcoins demise is inevitable because of its inefficiencies", "beyond bitcoin" we will be shunned by the demographic that should be most responsive to us.

I think your personal approach is good, but I don't think we should confuse PR with marketing & advertising though.

Products are sold on their competitive strengths vs. their competitors. Bitcoin is the leading competitor. These are our advantages over Bitcoin in this area, try us. This is where we can be complimentary to Bitcoin, try us. Etc. 

The people you mentioned are both heavily positioned in Bitcoin so presumably would see anybody else as a threat. Are either of them very supportive & involved with any other options like XRP/NXT/PPC/STR? If not there's probably little benefit to pandering to your small sample of Bitcoin royalty if they historically haven't been directly involved with and supportive of a non Bitcoin linked options.

I also expect those invested in BTC but not heavily positioned in BTC related projects will be able to make more rational investment decisions than 'I am not reading it. The guys at BitShares hate Bitcoin

Edit: Given that you have a personal relationship and friendship with these guys, I can see why you personally wouldn't want to be seen as being involved with a direct Bitcoin competitor. It's possible though that this dynamic could cloud your objectivity with regards to how BitShares should approach marketing.

Though I agree working better on PR, communication & being polite and respectful of Bitcoin are important.







« Last Edit: January 09, 2015, 07:52:01 am by Empirical1.1 »

Offline bytemaster

Good idea.   We are capturing emails of everyone who signs up to BitShares via the faucet.   I will work with Valintine to capture the email address of users and tie it into our overall system.

This is not good. These users do not specifically want emails from you. If you collect leads on your blog from people who want emails from you, they will be much more responsive and you will be able to engage them.

If I got an email from you after signing up with the faucet, I will think that I fell for a trap for you to get my email so you can spam me.

I would keep the lists separate.   The only thing we are using the faucet emails for is alerting users of security updates.   
For the latest updates checkout my blog: http://bytemaster.bitshares.org
Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract between myself and anyone else.   These are merely my opinions and I reserve the right to change them at any time.

Offline fluxer555

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Good idea.   We are capturing emails of everyone who signs up to BitShares via the faucet.   I will work with Valintine to capture the email address of users and tie it into our overall system.

This is not good. These users do not specifically want emails from you. If you collect leads on your blog from people who want emails from you, they will be much more responsive and you will be able to engage them.

If I got an email from you after signing up with the faucet, I will think that I fell for a trap for you to get my email so you can spam me.

Offline bitmarket

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The PR announcement I wrote for Max about how Bitshares+Shapeshift can shape the bitcoin world for the better  can count in this bet , if the Shapeshift thing did pan out like what I wrote in that article . What do you think , max ?

I agree. But lets not give him any clues.  :)   It is a great PR piece by the way.   Shapeshift are looking forward to running with it too.
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Offline bitmarket

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Beyond Bitcoin is very bad slogan! We need to support from Bitcoin crowd, bts is distributed bitcoin exchange. There are common interests.

Beyond Freedom is a better slogan ,perhaps

Same conclusion I get from big time Bitcoin investors in China .
They lost interest when they saw the articles about how Bitshares can replace Bitcoin .

I agree that the titles really don't need Bitcoin in them. I also think we should be polite and respectful. I just don't like the approach of avoiding the weaknesses of your competitor for fear of offending them.

I think it's patronising and disingenuous to frame yourself as a complimentary addition to the Bitcoin ecosystem when the intelligent people with capital are investors capable of making rational decisions based on direct comparisons.

As an example how do we promote remittances if not as a direct competitor to Bitcoin? Are we supposed to keep this competitive advantage quiet?

A post I made earlier today...


Quote
they're very excited about the potential Bitcoin has for remittance particularly in the Philippines, as $20 Billion annually is remitted there, unfortunately for them our dollar stable, 10 second, 1 cent transactions, interest paying BitUSD & the relationships & offramps John Underwood specifically has there, crushes their model. It's a huge market that BitShares is going to be vastly superior in. The approach of not explaining that, pretending to be complimentary, hoping they connect the dots and when they do say 'shhh, now that you' ve converted be vewy vewy quiet, nobody is aloud to openly make direct comparisons about BitShares having a better business model, we have to pwetend that our Bitcoin crushing remittance model is actually a complimentary addition to Bitcoin...' Is the wrong approach to me.

If you have a superior product and can back it up, make direct comparisons & intelligent, mature males with capital will consider it. They're investors and that's advertising.

If we don't a competitor will come along and say 'hey we can do the remittance job with a stable dollar asset, for 1c in 10 seconds and we have offramps in the Philippines' while Bitcoin is volatile, takes longer, charges more and has no banking relationships there' - People can see the light quickly with such a stark comparison which we will have failed to make if everyone took the soft sell approach.

I think both methods have a place but advertising your strengths vs. the leading competitor is just advertising, there's not many successful Trojan Horse campaigns I can recall and if there are, I would say they're the exception rather than the rule.

It will be an interesting challenge to try a few articles in the vein BitMarket suggests and I know that approach works very well for him. Personally though I'm going to continue to be clear and direct about our advantages as well as the weaknesses of Bitcoin when engaging people.

Let me give you two direct quotes from very serious people in the bitcoin space and good friends of mine.

1. A well known bitcoin investor and evengalist. Seed investor in many of the biggest bitcoin businesses that you all know the names of and a good friend was asked to proof read bitshares 101 for me.  He is a bitcoin multimillionaire and then some. He has flown me around in his plane. Bear in mind he is a good friend and would probably read a childrens book if I wrote it out of courtesy.

"I am not reading it. The guys at bitshares hate bitcoin."

2. Owner and developer of one of the best bitcoin wallets and a friend. He asked me to be a investor in his wallet because or my rep and ability to market. When I mentioned I was excited about bitshares his response was... "Oh dude stay away from them. They piss a lot of people off. If you align yourself with them you will feel it next time you are at a conference." 

Hence bitshares.tv and this challenge.   If we can repair bitshares reputation, I can bring a lot of people in.   But as long as we are banging on about, "proof of waste" "Proof of work is dead", "The one chain to rule them all", "bitshares makes bitcoin redundant" "bitcoins demise is inevitable because of its inefficiencies", "beyond bitcoin" we will be shunned by the demographic that should be most responsive to us.

« Last Edit: January 09, 2015, 07:07:16 am by bitmarket »
Host of BitShares.TV and Author of BitShares 101

Offline Empirical1.1

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Beyond Bitcoin is very bad slogan! We need to support from Bitcoin crowd, bts is distributed bitcoin exchange. There are common interests.

Beyond Freedom is a better slogan ,perhaps

Same conclusion I get from big time Bitcoin investors in China .
They lost interest when they saw the articles about how Bitshares can replace Bitcoin .

I agree that the titles really don't need Bitcoin in them. I also think we should be polite and respectful. I just don't like the approach of avoiding the weaknesses of your competitor for fear of offending them.

I think it's patronising and disingenuous to frame yourself as a complimentary addition to the Bitcoin ecosystem when the intelligent people with capital are investors capable of making rational decisions based on direct comparisons.

As an example how do we promote remittances if not as a direct competitor to Bitcoin? Are we supposed to keep this competitive advantage quiet?

A post I made earlier today...


Quote
they're very excited about the potential Bitcoin has for remittance particularly in the Philippines, as $20 Billion annually is remitted there, unfortunately for them our dollar stable, 10 second, 1 cent transactions, interest paying BitUSD & the relationships & offramps John Underwood specifically has there, crushes their model. It's a huge market that BitShares is going to be vastly superior in. The approach of not explaining that, pretending to be complimentary, hoping they connect the dots and when they do say 'shhh, now that you' ve converted be vewy vewy quiet, nobody is aloud to openly make direct comparisons about BitShares having a better business model, we have to pwetend that our Bitcoin crushing remittance model is actually a complimentary addition to Bitcoin...' Is the wrong approach to me.

If you have a superior product and can back it up, make direct comparisons & intelligent, mature males with capital will consider it. They're investors and that's advertising.

If we don't a competitor will come along and say 'hey we can do the remittance job with a stable dollar asset, for 1c in 10 seconds and we have offramps in the Philippines' while Bitcoin is volatile, takes longer, charges more and has no banking relationships there' - People can see the light quickly with such a stark comparison which we will have failed to make if everyone took the soft sell approach.

I think both methods have a place but advertising your strengths vs. the leading competitor is just advertising, there's not many successful Trojan Horse campaigns I can recall and if there are, I would say they're the exception rather than the rule.

It will be an interesting challenge to try a few articles in the vein BitMarket suggests and I know that approach works very well for him. Personally though I'm going to continue to be clear and direct about our advantages as well as the weaknesses of Bitcoin when engaging people.

« Last Edit: January 09, 2015, 06:23:11 am by Empirical1.1 »

Offline btswildpig

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Beyond Bitcoin is very bad slogan! We need to support from Bitcoin crowd, bts is distributed bitcoin exchange. There are common interests.

Beyond Freedom is a better slogan ,perhaps

Same conclusion I get from big time Bitcoin investors in China .
They lost interest when they saw the articles about how Bitshares can replace Bitcoin .
这个是私人账号,表达的一切言论均不代表任何团队和任何人。This is my personal account , anything I said with this account will be my opinion alone and has nothing to do with any group.

Offline bytemaster


Quote
What do you mean by "capture leads"?   

Everything we received in the past 48 hours (one of my biggest days) has resulted in a cookie being delivered to every visitor as part of our referral program.   I am working to optimize my blog to start funneling users into BitShares.

You are doing great and this is not criticism. By leads I mean a way to capture email to build a list and have your own private source of traffic forever and ever.

I mean you are producing a lot of content! Would be happy to setup a subscription form with a call to action at the end of every post for you if you need support.

Good idea.   We are capturing emails of everyone who signs up to BitShares via the faucet.   I will work with Valintine to capture the email address of users and tie it into our overall system. 
For the latest updates checkout my blog: http://bytemaster.bitshares.org
Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract between myself and anyone else.   These are merely my opinions and I reserve the right to change them at any time.

Offline thistome

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Beyond Bitcoin is very bad slogan! We need to support from Bitcoin crowd, bts is distributed bitcoin exchange. There are common interests.

Beyond Freedom is a better slogan ,perhaps