Author Topic: Why I think BitShares will succeed. Do competitors have all our features?  (Read 11737 times)

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Offline hughmanwho

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Also the POS makes it less trustworthy.. I definitely prefer POC over POS.  (POC = Proof of Capacity)

You have a point, and if you can convince me that POC has a more profitable business model than BitShares, then I will come join your community.  So, here is your chance to catch Moby Me.... Give me the pitch!

Might want to read this paper my buddy wrote about Proof of Capacity:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/13jG3F7uajhSsyT9GXDX86izmlBMf567_PbyOhUr_HGw/edit?usp=sharing

Btw, I was rethinking it.. BitShares actually has a hard time not easier time trimming their blockchain.  After all, anytime someone's account balance changes, so does their voting power, right?  This means that you still have to track account balances in the trimmed version of the chain, which basically means that you have to have a copy of the blockchain in order to trim the blockchain, right?

Offline Pheonike

it's the same as bitcoin. Everyone pays a fee to buy bitcoin, so why would people want to buy bitcoin just to spend it (and lose some cash value in the process)?

and if BitUSD is doomed because it takes a premium to purchase some with fiat then so is bitcoin (and every other crypto that requires a certain premium of time, money, and energy to purchase it from fiat.  Therefore anybody here who is complaining about this aspect is either trying to spread FUD about BitShares, or they have sold all their bitcoins because they are doomed to fail because Coinbase charges a premium to purchase bitcoins, and this premium will be the downfall of bitcoin because "nobody will ever spend bitcoins because of this fact"

So which logical explanation is it naysayers?

Have you sold your bitcoins and crypto because they cost a slight value premium to purchase and you know that bitcoins (like BitUSD) are bound for failure because of this fact?


Or are you purposefully trying to spread FUD about an identical characteristic that both BitUSD and bitcoin possess?

Or I guess there is one other logical explanation.

You have been enlightened to the fact that bitcoin has already proven that "requiring a premium to purchase a crypto"  has not hurt its standing as number 1 crypto on the planet.

Everybody here knows that a crypto costs a premium over fiat (especially the most widely used crypto in the world).  In fact, we've embraced this fact and are already speculating if this premium will be in fact "more or less" than that which Coinbase charges for bitcoin.

https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php/topic,16527.0.html

Bad analogy,


People buy bitcoin at a premium because there is an expectation that in the near and long term that it will increase enough in value therefore covering any premium they pay at present. BitUSD is not expected or should it have to increase significantly in value to constantly cover a premium.


Offline Ander

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"Always worth at least a dollar"

One good thing about the new system is that it pretty much guarantees that when bitassets diverge from the peg, they do it by being a bit too high. 

People cant really complain that their bitUSD is worth a little TOO much can they?
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Offline bytemaster

it's the same as bitcoin. Everyone pays a fee to buy bitcoin, so why would people want to buy bitcoin just to spend it (and lose some cash value in the process)?

and if BitUSD is doomed because it takes a premium to purchase some with fiat then so is bitcoin (and every other crypto that requires a certain premium of time, money, and energy to purchase it from fiat.  Therefore anybody here who is complaining about this aspect is either trying to spread FUD about BitShares, or they have sold all their bitcoins because they are doomed to fail because Coinbase charges a premium to purchase bitcoins, and this premium will be the downfall of bitcoin because "nobody will ever spend bitcoins because of this fact"

So which logical explanation is it naysayers?

Have you sold your bitcoins and crypto because they cost a slight value premium to purchase and you know that bitcoins (like BitUSD) are bound for failure because of this fact?


Or are you purposefully trying to spread FUD about an identical characteristic that both BitUSD and bitcoin possess?

Or I guess there is one other logical explanation.

You have been enlightened to the fact that bitcoin has already proven that "requiring a premium to purchase a crypto"  has not hurt its standing as number 1 crypto on the planet.

Everybody here knows that a crypto costs a premium over fiat (especially the most widely used crypto in the world).  In fact, we've embraced this fact and are already speculating if this premium will be in fact "more or less" than that which Coinbase charges for bitcoin.

https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php/topic,16527.0.html

Lets avoid accusations of FUD or ignorance.   The debate is good and healthy and we should always strive to improve things.   It is about value judgements.

What is the cost of having to place a "*" after BitUSD saying that it is "almost worth a dollar"  or  "only in small quantities" or "about a dollar"  vs. advertising the premium over $1.00 as the markets vote of confidence.    Someone looking to buy a dollar pegged asset would likely find it some what assuring that every time they look to buy some they find demand is high enough that it is worth more than $1.00.    The psychological impact of buying a "dollar pegged asset" at less than $1.00 causes people to question its value.


 
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Offline Ben Mason

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I do not think we will see BTS under 2000 ever again.

We will if BM goes ahead with his current BitAssets 2.0 plan.

You've probably answered this elsewhere sumantso, but would you mind explaining why you think this?

sumantso's basic concern seems to be that liquidity will suffer under the proposed BitAsset 2.0 plan due to the BitUSD market being lopsided in favor of merchants with an endless BitUSD premium, making it costly for anyone to spend BitUSD over traditional fiat/credit card options. I share the same concern, and haven't really seen anything from BM to quell these fears...

But when I think about it, it's kind of the same as bitcoin. Everyone pays a fee to buy bitcoin, so why would people want to buy bitcoin just to spend it (and lose some cash value in the process)? So people will be disinclined to spend BitUSD...kind of like they are now disinclined to spend bitcoin. But how can a currency work if people aren't incentivized to spend it? Also, many buy bitcoin as an investment...BitUSD isn't much of an investment if it's tied to an inflationary asset. So why do I want BitUSD that costs more than a dollar? Just thinking aloud here; I'm no economics expert...

thanks nomoreheroes7....i get the concern now.  on reflection, for me the premium makes sense because of the benefits of bitusd vs usd.  I would hold an amount of bitusd i intended to spend, then if the merchant I wanted to use only transacted in usd, i'd recover some of the premium depending on the fluctuation over time.  I think i get why BM doesn't think there will be an issue.  The problem i can see with that point of view is that people not comprehending the value of bitusd over usd.  So the issue is possibly one of education.  Obviously my savings would not be in bitusd. 

Offline Permie

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Starspirit,
   I am not really concerned about merchants so much as payment processors.   Most merchants will not be setting up their own node on the network to accept payment directly, instead they will go through a 3rd party.    More importantly, most merchants will not *directly* accept crypto, instead they will accept USD through a service provider that hides all cryptos, including BitUSD from them.      In the case of most non-stable crypto's, the payment processors simply hide the fee in the "exchange rate". 

   So the person I am really catering to is the middle man.   

   Early adopters of crypto use it because of properties other than price.   Most "crypto-consumers" wouldn't mind paying a fee to buy something with crypto, after all they would be paying a fee to exit to fiat anyway.   

   Traders don't care about anything other than "free market pricing" and "stable rules".   For them a premium doesn't matter because it all comes out in the end.

   I reject the notion that we can establish a peg with 0 premium and 0 volatility in the premium and those seeking this perfection are seeking the impossible.   Supply and Demand are constantly changing along with market perception of the valuation of BitShares.   

  Lets take a "perfect" and "balanced" system of a simple prediction market that settles once per year at a "perfectly fair" price.    In this prediction market both sides have the exact same liquidity and expectation of profit.  Any deviations from the value of $1.00 is a profit opportunity for both parties.   

  Under such a system what is the "volatility" of the premium?   It is proportional to the holding cost until settlement combined with the demand for leverage on BTS.   I would expect a range around $1.00 that could be off by over 10% at times.    So even with guaranteed settlement at a fair price on a specific date in the future you do not get an asset that is always worth $1.00 with a stable premium.    The best we can do is get an asset that is approximately worth $1.00 and the volatility in the premium is beyond our control. 

  If the premium is persistently biased by a certain minimum amount then the market will end up adjusting prices to account for that bias.  This "constant bias" can be relatively stable and can be removed by adjusting the feed.
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Offline nomoreheroes7

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I do not think we will see BTS under 2000 ever again.

We will if BM goes ahead with his current BitAssets 2.0 plan.

You've probably answered this elsewhere sumantso, but would you mind explaining why you think this?

sumantso's basic concern seems to be that liquidity will suffer under the proposed BitAsset 2.0 plan due to the BitUSD market being lopsided in favor of merchants with an endless BitUSD premium, making it costly for anyone to spend BitUSD over traditional fiat/credit card options. I share the same concern, and haven't really seen anything from BM to quell these fears...

But when I think about it, it's kind of the same as bitcoin. Everyone pays a fee to buy bitcoin, so why would people want to buy bitcoin just to spend it (and lose some cash value in the process)? So people will be disinclined to spend BitUSD...kind of like they are now disinclined to spend bitcoin. But how can a currency work if people aren't incentivized to spend it? Also, many buy bitcoin as an investment...BitUSD isn't much of an investment if it's tied to an inflationary asset. So why do I want BitUSD that costs more than a dollar? Just thinking aloud here; I'm no economics expert...
« Last Edit: May 26, 2015, 02:55:53 pm by nomoreheroes7 »

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Offline Ben Mason

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The one issue I have with BitShares is that it isn't really as decentralized.. every day people can't just connect to the network and directly mine.

Also the POS makes it less trustworthy.. I definitely prefer POC over POS.  (POC = Proof of Capacity)

But.. I've always found Bitshares interesting.  After this little mini-bubble dies down, which seems to be someone trying to pump the price, I may buy some.
The good news is that your one thing might be the result of a misunderstanding, I should know, I have them a lot too. Bitshares is decentralized enough to remain corruption resistant, which is what we all need the most, yet able to scale and remain efficient. Bitshares is accessible to anyone at any wealth level because of bitassets. DPOS is so far, the leader in integrity....it's not perfect though, but the devs are innovating their way to perfect. Get in before they get there  ;D

idk.. I'd call US Senate pretty corrupt and it's basically the same voting structure.

DPOS gives people the ability to one day realize they can start voting to pay themselves money similar to how it always happens with democracy slowly being corrupted into communism.  Vote for the delegates that promise them free money!  Not as likely to happen in a POC system.

Plus POS has a lot of issues with it.. history key attacks for example.. which DPOS makes much easier.

I will acknowledge that DPOS helps the blockchain trimming problem that POS has though.

I've thought about the whole communism thing, but most stakeholders will generally agree that this practice would be harmful to the blockchain and not approve. 

I like to compare DPOS to how companies operate, just like how the millions of companies that exist (corporations, llc, partnerships etc) do today.  Shareholders control and delegate the operations and there is usually little fear of freeloading.   Businesses and DPOS blockchains must be efficient to survive.

I'm sure key history attacks are incredibly difficult to execute and there are preventative measures... It's always good to be aware of as many attack vectors as possible though.
The senate is corrupt because it is not accountable. Delegates are accountable. The Bitshares ecosystem is built to incentivise efficiency as merivercap says. A delegate must perform the role he/she is voted into to perform. If they can do that whilst paying out their salary, great. They have access to a finite level of resource from the blockchain or value they create themselves. Bitshares will become an effective meritocracy.

There is one thing I haven't seen discussed.. imagine BitShares really goes to the moon, interest by companies and institutions is spiked, and soon enough they realize they can run their own delegates as well... these guys have millions to pour in, in a week they could arguably out-vote all the previous delegates with their own.

Maybe. Did I miss something in this picture?

I have nothing to back this up, but i think BTS is already sufficiently decentralized into strong hands that getting hold of a corruption significant stake would become very expensive very quickly.  Even if they were able to vote in several delegates....what would they do other than what they were supposed to?  If enough delegates were corrupted because enough of a BTS stake were held by those that wished to corrupt the network, it would be pretty obvious to everyone else and we'd simply fork the network without awarding stake to the corrupting influence and they would eventually run out of money and all they would have accomplished would be to disperse their capital among BTS holders. 

Offline Ben Mason

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I do not think we will see BTS under 2000 ever again.

We will if BM goes ahead with his current BitAssets 2.0 plan.

You've probably answered this elsewhere sumantso, but would you mind explaining why you think this?

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I do not think we will see BTS under 2000 ever again.

We will if BM goes ahead with his current BitAssets 2.0 plan.

Offline karnal

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The one issue I have with BitShares is that it isn't really as decentralized.. every day people can't just connect to the network and directly mine.

Also the POS makes it less trustworthy.. I definitely prefer POC over POS.  (POC = Proof of Capacity)

But.. I've always found Bitshares interesting.  After this little mini-bubble dies down, which seems to be someone trying to pump the price, I may buy some.
The good news is that your one thing might be the result of a misunderstanding, I should know, I have them a lot too. Bitshares is decentralized enough to remain corruption resistant, which is what we all need the most, yet able to scale and remain efficient. Bitshares is accessible to anyone at any wealth level because of bitassets. DPOS is so far, the leader in integrity....it's not perfect though, but the devs are innovating their way to perfect. Get in before they get there  ;D

idk.. I'd call US Senate pretty corrupt and it's basically the same voting structure.

DPOS gives people the ability to one day realize they can start voting to pay themselves money similar to how it always happens with democracy slowly being corrupted into communism.  Vote for the delegates that promise them free money!  Not as likely to happen in a POC system.

Plus POS has a lot of issues with it.. history key attacks for example.. which DPOS makes much easier.

I will acknowledge that DPOS helps the blockchain trimming problem that POS has though.

I've thought about the whole communism thing, but most stakeholders will generally agree that this practice would be harmful to the blockchain and not approve. 

I like to compare DPOS to how companies operate, just like how the millions of companies that exist (corporations, llc, partnerships etc) do today.  Shareholders control and delegate the operations and there is usually little fear of freeloading.   Businesses and DPOS blockchains must be efficient to survive.

I'm sure key history attacks are incredibly difficult to execute and there are preventative measures... It's always good to be aware of as many attack vectors as possible though.
The senate is corrupt because it is not accountable. Delegates are accountable. The Bitshares ecosystem is built to incentivise efficiency as merivercap says. A delegate must perform the role he/she is voted into to perform. If they can do that whilst paying out their salary, great. They have access to a finite level of resource from the blockchain or value they create themselves. Bitshares will become an effective meritocracy.

There is one thing I haven't seen discussed.. imagine BitShares really goes to the moon, interest by companies and institutions is spiked, and soon enough they realize they can run their own delegates as well... these guys have millions to pour in, in a week they could arguably out-vote all the previous delegates with their own.

Maybe. Did I miss something in this picture?

Offline mirrax

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I do not think we will see BTS under 2000 ever again.

Offline Ben Mason

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The one issue I have with BitShares is that it isn't really as decentralized.. every day people can't just connect to the network and directly mine.

Also the POS makes it less trustworthy.. I definitely prefer POC over POS.  (POC = Proof of Capacity)

But.. I've always found Bitshares interesting.  After this little mini-bubble dies down, which seems to be someone trying to pump the price, I may buy some.
The good news is that your one thing might be the result of a misunderstanding, I should know, I have them a lot too. Bitshares is decentralized enough to remain corruption resistant, which is what we all need the most, yet able to scale and remain efficient. Bitshares is accessible to anyone at any wealth level because of bitassets. DPOS is so far, the leader in integrity....it's not perfect though, but the devs are innovating their way to perfect. Get in before they get there  ;D

idk.. I'd call US Senate pretty corrupt and it's basically the same voting structure.

DPOS gives people the ability to one day realize they can start voting to pay themselves money similar to how it always happens with democracy slowly being corrupted into communism.  Vote for the delegates that promise them free money!  Not as likely to happen in a POC system.

Plus POS has a lot of issues with it.. history key attacks for example.. which DPOS makes much easier.

I will acknowledge that DPOS helps the blockchain trimming problem that POS has though.

I've thought about the whole communism thing, but most stakeholders will generally agree that this practice would be harmful to the blockchain and not approve. 

I like to compare DPOS to how companies operate, just like how the millions of companies that exist (corporations, llc, partnerships etc) do today.  Shareholders control and delegate the operations and there is usually little fear of freeloading.   Businesses and DPOS blockchains must be efficient to survive.

I'm sure key history attacks are incredibly difficult to execute and there are preventative measures... It's always good to be aware of as many attack vectors as possible though.
The senate is corrupt because it is not accountable. Delegates are accountable. The Bitshares ecosystem is built to incentivise efficiency as merivercap says. A delegate must perform the role he/she is voted into to perform. If they can do that whilst paying out their salary, great. They have access to a finite level of resource from the blockchain or value they create themselves. Bitshares will become an effective meritocracy.

Offline merivercap

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The one issue I have with BitShares is that it isn't really as decentralized.. every day people can't just connect to the network and directly mine.

Also the POS makes it less trustworthy.. I definitely prefer POC over POS.  (POC = Proof of Capacity)

But.. I've always found Bitshares interesting.  After this little mini-bubble dies down, which seems to be someone trying to pump the price, I may buy some.
The good news is that your one thing might be the result of a misunderstanding, I should know, I have them a lot too. Bitshares is decentralized enough to remain corruption resistant, which is what we all need the most, yet able to scale and remain efficient. Bitshares is accessible to anyone at any wealth level because of bitassets. DPOS is so far, the leader in integrity....it's not perfect though, but the devs are innovating their way to perfect. Get in before they get there  ;D

idk.. I'd call US Senate pretty corrupt and it's basically the same voting structure.

DPOS gives people the ability to one day realize they can start voting to pay themselves money similar to how it always happens with democracy slowly being corrupted into communism.  Vote for the delegates that promise them free money!  Not as likely to happen in a POC system.

Plus POS has a lot of issues with it.. history key attacks for example.. which DPOS makes much easier.

I will acknowledge that DPOS helps the blockchain trimming problem that POS has though.

I've thought about the whole communism thing, but most stakeholders will generally agree that this practice would be harmful to the blockchain and not approve. 

I like to compare DPOS to how companies operate, just like how the millions of companies that exist (corporations, llc, partnerships etc) do today.  Shareholders control and delegate the operations and there is usually little fear of freeloading.   Businesses and DPOS blockchains must be efficient to survive.

I'm sure key history attacks are incredibly difficult to execute and there are preventative measures... It's always good to be aware of as many attack vectors as possible though.
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