Reasons for Lowering Fees

[clayop]

Trying to break into a business field where the established competition already has razor thin margins is almost a guaranteed failure.  We need to focus on staying profitable and exploiting our niche market of decentralized trading.

At this stage, our focus group is existing traders who are already accustomed to the fee system of centralized exchanges. They don't really care about decentralized. They care interface, speed, and other superficial things. In this sense, we already have disadvantages. Why are we going to add another disadvantage?

[gamey]

The un-banked are the target audience for cryptocurrency, so we must raise fees as high as possible to attract more high quality un-banked people.

I hope that helps!

Most unbanked people are not going to be that into crypto.  They're unbanked because they are poor and uneducated. The only people who are unbanked and will use crypto are those ducking the IRS/government.

Anyway I don't think the fees are slowing down adoption to the extent others believe. 

[sittingduck]

Trying to break into a business field where the established competition already has razor thin margins is almost a guaranteed failure.  We need to focus on staying profitable and exploiting our niche market of decentralized trading.

 

Couldn't have said it better myself. 

What is the value of a decentralized exchange that no centralized exchange can replicate?  Sell that value.  If the value is non existent then the whole thing is pointless. If it is there then people will pay. 

[Riverhead]

Trying to break into a business field where the established competition already has razor thin margins is almost a guaranteed failure.  We need to focus on staying profitable and exploiting our niche market of decentralized trading.

 

[lil_jay890]

Once the api is updated for use with 3rd party trading platforms, bts is going to rocket.  Stay focused on the exchange side. That is our niche, and a very lucrative niche at that.  Forget about competing with bitcoin for transaction scraps.

If we keep having this argument about lowering transfer fees, I'm guessing we will eventually try them out of pure annoyance.  Then we will see the price not go up at all and we will be sitting here with an ultra inflating blockchain.  Devs will disappear because of the lack of funding.  And we will have crushed all the businesses that are building models around the current structure.

Just have a little patience.

You have so many hopes. Do traders like high fees? Lower fee always generate low revenue? (If you say yes, you maybe skeptical about Black Friday's sales).
I'm trying to increase the value (or attractiveness) of BTS. Since I'm a active user (you can see my account page with many trade and transfer records), I have a right to say this.

1. Traders trade where their money is safest and the order execution is best.  Their are hundreds of ultra low spread brokers out there.  Most go out of business within 2-5 years because they can't do both things listed above well.  Plus bitshares is $.15 per transaction... That's nothing. Stop looking at it in bts terms where you think bts should be $1 per share.

2. Black Friday is similar to bait and switch... A low priced item is advertised to get you in the store where you will pay full price for 90% of all the other items you buy. Plus this low priced items is usually held in low stock.

3. Low fees MIGHT generate more revenue, but it definitely will lower our margins.  If low fees don't increase the transactions enough, we are dead in the water as we have just killed any business trying to build on our current fee structure.

Trying to break into a business field where the established competition already has razor thin margins is almost a guaranteed failure.  We need to focus on staying profitable and exploiting our niche market of decentralized trading.

[Riverhead]

my good friend 
i think bytemaster will find a reasonable level     

This sort of discussion is very meaningful and clayop is doing an excellent job presenting his case. There has never been access to these levers and dials before so there is going to be passionate debate about their settings as we try to define ourselves.

If there was ever a shoe-in for committee member it is clayop.

[Musewhale]

my good friend 
i think bytemaster will find a reasonable level     

[betax]

i would say -"everyone, look at your own behavior"

- i changed a long time my bank, because they are charging ZERO fees
- i always go to the cheapest electricity provider
- i always be on the cheapest telco and internet provider

where i have a choice i will go to the cheapest place - IF - the service is compareable to other companies.

so, in my opinion clayop said a good point - we should match the fees with our competition

- in the sense of transfering i would say, at the moment the competition is bitcoin and not the banks or paypal, this could change in the future but not right now, so we should match our fees to bitcoin fees.
(i think with the same transferfees, in the future it is a now brainer to use bitshares, because we will be so much more convenient then bitcoin)

- in the sense of trading (our core feature) at the moment our competition are the crypto exchanges and most of them charging 0.2 % per trade or less.

Why we can not charge ZERO placing fees for traders?

- because we think we will get spammed with orders, but let us discuss if we can find other ways to prefend this

what can we do, that someone will not spam our network?

- we want liquidity and what about solutions like - if the order is at least 0.5% away and x amount high and will be active for x hours we will charge ZERO fees

at least on pegged assets we should find this kind of solution. We should implement an order typ that i can place my order % away from settlement(feedprice), then if i match the
other criterias like amount and time this order will be for free.

i am not a coder and i suspect this will not bloat our system, because only serious people will get this advantage. a "normal" trader dont care how much the fees are, he will go to the best
place he can aquire the needed shares. So we have to create liquidity and i presented just an idea how we can create liquidity, without the problem of to much bloat.

 

There are 2 types of markets in the world. 1st market luxury / niche / highly specialised with low number of trades but high returns. (rolls royce aircraft engines). 2nd market best value for money (efficiency) with high number of trades, high volume returns based on the number of trades. (Amazon, supermarket chain)  Which one are we?

[pc]

BM's new proposal mentions that BitShares will reduce fees EXCEPT transfer, creating order, and account creation fees. This is somewhat disappointing to me because I have been arguing to lower transfer and order creation fees.

TL; DR
My suggestion is to lower the basic transfer fee to BTC level (9 BTS) and to lower the basic order creation fee just for preventing spammy attacks (1 BTS)

We have *working infrastructure in place* for at least several dozen TPS. I doesn't make sense to raise fees while we're several orders of magnitude away from saturating the infrastructure.

[Shentist]

i would say -"everyone, look at your own behavior"

- i changed a long time my bank, because they are charging ZERO fees
- i always go to the cheapest electricity provider
- i always be on the cheapest telco and internet provider

where i have a choice i will go to the cheapest place - IF - the service is compareable to other companies.

so, in my opinion clayop said a good point - we should match the fees with our competition

- in the sense of transfering i would say, at the moment the competition is bitcoin and not the banks or paypal, this could change in the future but not right now, so we should match our fees to bitcoin fees.
(i think with the same transferfees, in the future it is a now brainer to use bitshares, because we will be so much more convenient then bitcoin)

- in the sense of trading (our core feature) at the moment our competition are the crypto exchanges and most of them charging 0.2 % per trade or less.

Why we can not charge ZERO placing fees for traders?

- because we think we will get spammed with orders, but let us discuss if we can find other ways to prefend this

what can we do, that someone will not spam our network?

- we want liquidity and what about solutions like - if the order is at least 0.5% away and x amount high and will be active for x hours we will charge ZERO fees

at least on pegged assets we should find this kind of solution. We should implement an order typ that i can place my order % away from settlement(feedprice), then if i match the
other criterias like amount and time this order will be for free.

i am not a coder and i suspect this will not bloat our system, because only serious people will get this advantage. a "normal" trader dont care how much the fees are, he will go to the best
place he can aquire the needed shares. So we have to create liquidity and i presented just an idea how we can create liquidity, without the problem of to much bloat.

[clayop]

Once the api is updated for use with 3rd party trading platforms, bts is going to rocket.  Stay focused on the exchange side. That is our niche, and a very lucrative niche at that.  Forget about competing with bitcoin for transaction scraps.

If we keep having this argument about lowering transfer fees, I'm guessing we will eventually try them out of pure annoyance.  Then we will see the price not go up at all and we will be sitting here with an ultra inflating blockchain.  Devs will disappear because of the lack of funding.  And we will have crushed all the businesses that are building models around the current structure.

Just have a little patience.

You have so many hopes. Do traders like high fees? Lower fee always generate low revenue? (If you say yes, you maybe skeptical about Black Friday's sales).
I'm trying to increase the value (or attractiveness) of BTS. Since I'm a active user (you can see my account page with many trade and transfer records), I have a right to say this.

[lil_jay890]

Once the api is updated for use with 3rd party trading platforms, bts is going to rocket.  Stay focused on the exchange side. That is our niche, and a very lucrative niche at that.  Forget about competing with bitcoin for transaction scraps.

If we keep having this argument about lowering transfer fees, I'm guessing we will eventually try them out of pure annoyance.  Then we will see the price not go up at all and we will be sitting here with an ultra inflating blockchain.  Devs will disappear because of the lack of funding.  And we will have crushed all the businesses that are building models around the current structure.

Just have a little patience.

[clayop]

;)why not set fee to 100 BTS and LT gets 92% back or 1000 and get 97% back

A bank account might require 5 - 10 transactions a month to avoid a fee.

I think a $.04 fee at $.003 /BTS value is a limit .  At $.01 BTS value it is already a $.14 fee . This could happen in a week, a month, ... 

a lower limit is natural to expect a full fee.  what real transactional value is there is in a $.001 or lower BTS, perhaps 300 BTS fee by the end of the year.

I suspect strongly that BTS value is up from here if there is any utility at all.  I know there is.   A $. 20 fee should be a target at some market value. 

Everyone can expect it. 

at 20million ?  that would make it 4-5 BTS
at 50million?

i hope my math good

That's one of my point!

[Tuck Fheman]

... you should instead do customer research in the form of a forum survey as a way to get a better starting point imo.

https://youtu.be/ZXsQAXx_ao0

[Xeldal]

 ;)why not set fee to 100 BTS and LT gets 92% back or 1000 and get 97% back

A bank account might require 5 - 10 transactions a month to avoid a fee.

I think a $.04 fee at $.003 /BTS value is a limit .  At $.01 BTS value it is already a $.14 fee . This could happen in a week, a month, ... 

a lower limit is natural to expect a full fee.  what real transactional value is there is in a $.001 or lower BTS, perhaps 300 BTS fee by the end of the year.

I suspect strongly that BTS value is up from here if there is any utility at all.  I know there is.   A $. 20 fee should be a target at some market value. 

Everyone can expect it. 

at 20million ?  that would make it 4-5 BTS
at 50million?

i hope my math good