Author Topic: Why are we Here? Why BitShares? Why this community? Why Me?  (Read 22939 times)

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Offline Ander

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Historically with VOTE, Secret Sauce, 'What is a New User Worth?', Merger and a few other things, I get immediately concerned when I see posts signalling the current focus might not fit BM's vision/mission because it often precedes, my way or the highway, type direction changes.

Yep, 300 sat BTS incoming.

Soon the answer to this will be that we are here to watch NSR pass BTS market cap. :P
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Offline Empirical1.2

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I'm a little confused at the purpose of this post.

The reason/purpose for this post imo, is that not many in the community were supportive of the stealth transfers workers proposal - https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php/topic,20104.0.html

It's a repeated behaviour pattern that occurs when BM wants to direct his focus to something but the community/shareholders would prefer him to work on something else.

When his currently preferred direction deviates from the community, it  results in him questioning his reasons for being here, as he is more of a creative leader than an employee. If he is unsuccessful at shifting short term focus to the above proposal, then the stakes are usually raised.

It's the cost that people didn't like. People don't mind having the feature but at that cost, and because it's presented in an ideological manner, it appeared to stakeholders that it's a feature which will not be worth the ROI and potentially negative publicity as well due to the timing.

But I think we do need privacy. If you don't have privacy no one is going to want to be a large holder if everyone can target them. So the way Bytemaster should have marketed the feature is by revealing the risks associated with not having it. It might be that if Bitshares become worth too much money people will have to move it to Indentabit or a bank just so it's safe.

I think reputation is a greater priority than anonymity, but I do think you need privacy in some form, even if you keep some minimal transparency I highly doubt you want the world to know exactly what your net worth is or where you put your life savings.

I agree. Privacy is a needed and valuable feature.

I've been an advocate for a while that decentralized blockchains should focus on and have a big market in those types of areas.

I think this insight is a good one...

This means that BitShares original reason for existence (to provide the decentralized exchange) in a world where Bitcoin is being cracked down upon is less and less relevant. Instead we are put in a situation of competing head-to-head with centralized exchanges which are trusted, fast, and legal.

However I also tend to agree with most other people that it isn't the highest immediate priority right now, given how close the DEX is to being fantastic and given the cost. I think there is huge value in 'DEX + Liquid Smartcoins'

Historically with VOTE, Secret Sauce, 'What is a New User Worth?', Merger and a few other things, I get immediately concerned when I see posts signalling the current focus might not fit BM's vision/mission because it often precedes, my way or the highway, type direction changes. 


« Last Edit: November 20, 2015, 12:32:20 am by Empirical1.2 »
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Offline CLains

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The internet and information-technology is completely alien to human civilization and we're only barely beginning to see its complete unfolding and restructuring of traditional values and cultures. Bitcoin has an essential role to play in this narrative being the seed of a native value for this alien web of interconnections. We take this achievement to heart and accelerate and generalize its impact to include complete financial independence starting with the essential exchange of value. These and associated information technologies will ensure that economic friction will approach zero as the internet matures. We are a potentially essential piece in an event of unimaginable significance. To downplay the role of both decentralization and anonymity in building an exchange is to mispercieve the exponential future of value transfers and the impossibility of traditional structures to adapt adequately. Decentralized exchange, prediction markets and equity crowd-funding and other things beside.. Imagine how Wikipedia, the Pirate Party, Anonymous, and all other internet natives are free to flourish when value flows freely. We fear our weakness now, but soon we'll fear our strength.

Sure this exchange business will be a dry day-job for the foreseeable future, and our grand vision will have to rest, but maximizing financial independence and minimizing economic friction is likely one of the most rational things to do if we evaluate our options according to effective altruism. We also can't build the future before the foundation is in place; creating the architecture and platform was the right thing to do. There are millions of passionate activists bleeding their heart out for various causes, but to really make a dent in the world one needs an aptitude for inspired shortcuts through space and time, like that Elon Musk who by creating PayPal was going straight to Mars.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2015, 12:23:13 am by CLains »

Offline Akado

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Btw, the reason why I'm here is - also because of the community, ideals and the fact I can vote and know my vote actually counts in building the future - is mainly because of my naive dream of ending with corruption. But maybe we can help decrease it a bit. I'd be happy if that was achieved.
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Offline luckybit

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I'm a little confused at the purpose of this post.

The reason/purpose for this post imo, is that not many in the community were supportive of the stealth transfers workers proposal - https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php/topic,20104.0.html

It's a repeated behaviour pattern that occurs when BM wants to direct his focus to something but the community/shareholders would prefer him to work on something else.

When his currently preferred direction deviates from the community, it  results in him questioning his reasons for being here, as he is more of a creative leader than an employee. If he is unsuccessful at shifting short term focus to the above proposal, then the stakes are usually raised.

It's the cost that people didn't like. People don't mind having the feature but at that cost, and because it's presented in an ideological manner, it appeared to stakeholders that it's a feature which will not be worth the ROI and potentially negative publicity as well due to the timing.

But I think we do need privacy. If you don't have privacy no one is going to want to be a large holder if everyone can target them. So the way Bytemaster should have marketed the feature is by revealing the risks associated with not having it. It might be that if Bitshares become worth too much money people will have to move it to Indentabit or a bank just so it's safe.

I think reputation is a greater priority than anonymity, but I do think you need privacy in some form, even if you keep some minimal transparency I highly doubt you want the world to know exactly what your net worth is or where you put your life savings.

Currently the risk/benefit analysis may not favor priority implementation of that feature. In my opinion the exchange features should have priority implementation, but I do think privacy is necessary in some form. I just think careful thought should go into how it's done so that it's privacy that reduces risks more than it creates them, and I think that is handled by the interface.

Just having stealth/blind transactions don't give you much if you don't know how to use it.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2015, 12:09:38 am by luckybit »
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Offline rgcrypto

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WHY is the source of motivation. The reason why people don't do something that we know is good for them is because they don't have a strong enough reason to...not a powerful enough why.

Look at DOGE coin. The reason is: Because it's fun!

Why am I here, Why BitShares?

The reason why is because this project was built upon a mission: To Secure Life, Liberty and Property. 
Knowing that people rallied around that idea, built a community and an amazing technology is something that keep me around.

Also, I find amazing that I have an opportunity to invest in businesses that believe the same thing (OBITS, METAFEES, etc.)
It's a community of bright and forward thinking entrepreneurs.

Another powerful WHY is that I would like to see this tech replace FOREX and NASDAQ. People from all around the world being able to jump in the game without having to go through expensive 3rd party.

Offline GaltReport

The purpose of this post wasn't to change any short-term direction. It was to simply recognize that optimizing the exchange business is a short-term strategy for a larger long-term goal.
...

Yes,  it's low hanging fruit but by all means, we should PICK IT!

Offline Empirical1.2

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I'm a little confused at the purpose of this post.

The reason/purpose for this post imo, is that not many in the community were supportive of the stealth transfers workers proposal - https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php/topic,20104.0.html

It's a repeated behaviour pattern that occurs when BM wants to direct his focus to something but the community/shareholders would prefer him to work on something else.

When his currently preferred direction deviates from the community, it  results in him questioning his reasons for being here, as he is more of a creative leader than an employee. If he is unsuccessful at shifting short term focus to the above proposal, then the stakes are usually raised.
If you want to take the island burn the boats

Offline puppies

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This has been a great reminder Bytemaster.  We all need to ensure that we don't lose sight of what we are trying to accomplish.  I am glad to see the motivations of my fellow BitSharerers.  I am, as I often am very happy to be a part of this great community.


I'm still here because of the original vision though i do feel i have lost sight of it.  Bitshares can provide the tools that will create the new systems of immutable freedom of voluntary cooperation that will be crucial in bringing about a new system of control that is localized squarely with the individual.  I am whole heatedly on board for the ideas of civil disobedience and I see the state or government as the largest obstacle to a free and prosperous, peaceful society.  The state is the biggest instrument of organized crime.  It does nothing to protect any of us from anything.   Any effort to bow to state demands or regulations personally I feel is a shame and a waste of otherwise valiant efforts.  Though I completely understand the desire for cookie cuter, safe, draw within the state approved lines avenue its just not moves me personally, not what I'm here for.  I'm sure we can all make some money playing into the hands of the ruling class but that is not my core motivation for being here and ultimately a far greater opportunity lies outside these lines. 

I think we've made great progress and built a monster of a platform.  The exchange is a great feature but my heart pulls for greater ambitions and I'd be thrilled to see a wider scope and renewed focus on the core principles that brought me here.

Well said Xeldal
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Offline luckybit

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This post was not motivated by any external news (I wasn't aware Bitcoin was being blamed for recent terrorist activities).  I posted this as a reminder to everyone (and myself) of why we are here.

It is good to see the solid feedback of the users that are here. Philosophy builds loyalty. Loyalty creates hoarders. Hoarders create demand. Demand increases prices.

Profits bring those motivated by "greed" and greed brings short-term thinking. Short term thinking will not get us out of a long-term hole.

I agree, I just think we have to be careful in how we frame the concepts in the philosophy. We want a big tent, and I think financial independence is a huge tent.

Here is an example of a demographic that would benefit from Bitshares but that might be scared away by the libertarian presentation:
http://ieet.org/index.php/IEET/more/danaher20151103
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rvpTmiVhcxU

What is a post work world? A world with more financial independence? In the end a lot of people, maybe even the vast majority, do not like their jobs, to have to work for a boss, and most don't know what it means to own property. Property ownership is often misunderstood and perceived as some sort of "greed", but at the same time it's a path to financial independence.

Crowd funding in my opinion will make this very clear to the masses. I do think Bitshares can attract the masses once more people understand that they can actually own stocks and that it's not just for rich people but when only half the population own stocks, it's hard to make a case. Bitshares would allow gamers to trade video game items and learn about property ownership, these might be just teenagers, but they might not be able to buy stocks through a broker, but it still would be beneficial to them if they can have the same access as adults.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2015, 12:01:51 am by luckybit »
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38PTSWarrior

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I am here because I want an alternative to government.
BitShares because of your talent and ideas for a better world bytemaster.
I believe that the basic fee settings cannot be that bad so I don't care about changing them.


Offline bytemaster

This post was not motivated by any external news (I wasn't aware Bitcoin was being blamed for recent terrorist activities).  I posted this as a reminder to everyone (and myself) of why we are here.

It is good to see the solid feedback of the users that are here. Philosophy builds loyalty. Loyalty creates hoarders. Hoarders create demand. Demand increases prices.

Profits bring those motivated by "greed" and greed brings short-term thinking. Short term thinking will not get us out of a long-term hole.
For the latest updates checkout my blog: http://bytemaster.bitshares.org
Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract between myself and anyone else.   These are merely my opinions and I reserve the right to change them at any time.

Offline luckybit

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Luckybit I don't understand what your post has to do with what I said. I dont understand what it has to do with the risk people want to take or not.

My point is:
Money/profit > more feature implementation > bigger potential for liberty/privacy > Objective accomplished

If we decide to implement those features now or short term:
No profit/money > no more features/incomplete set of features > no liberty/privacy > objective wont be accomplished

It was to simply recognize that optimizing the exchange business is a short-term strategy for a larger long-term goal.

Now that I agree and is what i've been trying to say.

We basically agree but my opinion is, features must take into account "risks" that Bitshares participants may inherit. When it comes to anonymous currency, that is inevitable, but it also brings risks.

On the other hand not having privacy brings risks. What that means is you have to mitigate and manage the risks to produce security in an ecosystem. If you don't want law enforcement to do it then you have to self regulate and build it into the design of your app.

I think we all agree on financial independence. Once we diverge from that and start going into other stuff like tax protests or controversial features, then people begin to divide and I don't think that is a good thing because it marginalizes a potentially large community.

Everyone can agree that financial independence is good. Whether you love the government or hate the government, not having to depend on the government as much isn't exactly a bad thing. But Bitshares is in my opinion no where near that point, as it has to be profitable as a decentralized exchange, and people who participate have to be financially independent in order for people to believe a blockchain can hire people and put them in a financially independent state.

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Offline luckybit

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The purpose of this post wasn't to change any short-term direction. It was to simply recognize that optimizing the exchange business is a short-term strategy for a larger long-term goal.

There are so many choices for future work / direction that failure to take stock of product / market fit can be a disaster.

Was your post in response to the "Security Panic" we see from governments and individuals who are blaming encryption for the terrorist attacks?

Risk based approach to policy would say that because the odds of dying in a terrorist attack are something like 20,000,000 to 1, and the odds of being struct by lightening or getting in a car accident are much higher, the probability should set the policies rather than emotions.

Unfortunately I think a lot of politicians and people in law enforcement wait for a terrorist attack to push for policies they've been trying to push for years. Backdoors in encryption which would make us all less secure, or banning encryption, these policies aren't based on the statistics. The danger from a terrorist attack doesn't quantatatively justify the level of sacrifice to civil liberties they are demanding.

If the situation were different and suddenly terrorist attacks were becoming much more frequent, with much higher death tolls, then I would understand their policies and crack downs, but so far no terrorist attack that I know of has been directly funded primarily by Bitcoin, or any cryptocurrency, and as far as I know terrorists have always had encryption and value transfer.

Hawala has existed for a long time. And encryption itself was invented in the regions which are now involved in terrorist attacks. If we look at any of the World Wars or the Cold War then we find encryption was used. Law enforcement never before had the ability to decrypt everything and monitor everyone, and in war the NSA is supposed to have those capabilities.

My conclusion is that for the most part it's political. Any time when decisions are made in the heat of them moment, where emotions are high, then you could get less than rational policies and outcomes.  This isn't to say that ISIS can't hurt us or that there is no risk at all, but more that the reactions and threat of a crackdown are not rational because their own documents say so.

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/468210/UK_NRA_October_2015_final_web.pdf

So when marketing certain features, it should be known that:

http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2015/03/youre-55-times-likely-killed-police-officer-terrorist.html
http://www.globalresearch.ca/the-terrorism-statistics-every-american-needs-to-hear/5382818

The statistics reveal the true security situation. If the statistics don't show an increasing risk, maybe it's imagined.
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Offline Ben Mason

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BM there has never been a greater need for a decentralised exchange.....the risks presented by centralised exchanges and private blockchains are increasing, not decreasing.  Any regulation that occurs that appears favourable to blockchain tech is there to act as a brake to innovation and give entrenched interests time to recover the initiative.  Corruption occurs over time and will inevitably occur even with currently honest services....the point of BitShares is that it resists corruption over time, because every design decision is the best it can be at ensuring that. So corruption resistance, appropriate economic incentives, usability then marketing.

I agree with many sentiments written here. We have the technological and philosophical foundation, an incredible, forged community, hardened over the fire of the last year. Now we need to polish what we have, make everything as useable as possible, then reasses.

You are an inspiration and it is right to question our objectives and progress.....this time we must hold the line and get something working absolutely right before moving on.  How else can we make a rational assessment of how far we've come?