Author Topic: New Stealth Transfer Worker ($1000)  (Read 20211 times)

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TravelsAsia

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Re: New Stealth Transfer Worker ($1000)
« Reply #90 on: November 23, 2015, 10:52:38 pm »
Mark me down as in favor of this anonymous lender being allowed to recoup their investment plus a generous amount.

Alternatively, and even better in my opinion, create a UIA, crowdsource the funding, then use future stealth fees to buy back the UIA.

Mark me down as 100% firmly opposed to them having lifetime royalties forever. In fact, mark me down as insulted by the proposal,.

This is so misguided in so many ways.  There is absolutely no gaurentee that the investor will recoup his money back.  So you want him to to be exposed to all the downside (losing his initial investment) while you get all the upside.  How fair is that?

project succeeds and blows up. for 45,000 this person bought millions of dollars from bitshares' profits every year forever.

What would be a reasonable amount of money you would recommend capping the profit at?  4x the amount?

Offline merockstar

Re: New Stealth Transfer Worker ($1000)
« Reply #91 on: November 23, 2015, 10:55:19 pm »
Mark me down as in favor of this anonymous lender being allowed to recoup their investment plus a generous amount.

Alternatively, and even better in my opinion, create a UIA, crowdsource the funding, then use future stealth fees to buy back the UIA.

Mark me down as 100% firmly opposed to them having lifetime royalties forever. In fact, mark me down as insulted by the proposal,.

This is so misguided in so many ways.  There is absolutely no gaurentee that the investor will recoup his money back.  So you want him to to be exposed to all the downside (losing his initial investment) while you get all the upside.  How fair is that?

project succeeds and blows up. for 45,000 this person bought millions of dollars from bitshares' profits every year forever.

What would be a reasonable amount of money you would recommend capping the profit at?  4x the amount?

I mean yea it IS a risk, and it would be a HUGE favor to the community, so that should be considered. I'd be okay with 10x or even 20x. Just not a one time buy in gets mass residual income for eternity.

Offline Akado

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Re: New Stealth Transfer Worker ($1000)
« Reply #92 on: November 23, 2015, 10:55:59 pm »
Mark me down as in favor of this anonymous lender being allowed to recoup their investment plus a generous amount.

Alternatively, and even better in my opinion, create a UIA, crowdsource the funding, then use future stealth fees to buy back the UIA.

Mark me down as 100% firmly opposed to them having lifetime royalties forever. In fact, mark me down as insulted by the proposal,.

This is so misguided in so many ways.  There is absolutely no gaurentee that the investor will recoup his money back.  So you want him to to be exposed to all the downside (losing his initial investment) while you get all the upside.  How fair is that?

project succeeds and blows up. for 45,000 this person bought millions of dollars from bitshares' profits every year forever.

So what? As long as BTS gets a cut what's the problem with that? Because that person will bring in something unvaluable that you will never be able to put a price on. It's not about the feature, you have to see through that, it's about all the costumers, exposure, marketing BitShares will get that woldn't get otherwise + help creating a brand. You can't put a price on that.
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Offline onceuponatime

Re: New Stealth Transfer Worker ($1000)
« Reply #93 on: November 23, 2015, 10:57:17 pm »
Mark me down as in favor of this anonymous lender being allowed to recoup their investment plus a generous amount.

Alternatively, and even better in my opinion, create a UIA, crowdsource the funding, then use future stealth fees to buy back the UIA.

Mark me down as 100% firmly opposed to them having lifetime royalties forever. In fact, mark me down as insulted by the proposal,.

This is so misguided in so many ways.  There is absolutely no gaurentee that the investor will recoup his money back.  So you want him to to be exposed to all the downside (losing his initial investment) while you get all the upside.  How fair is that?

project succeeds and blows up. for 45,000 this person bought millions of dollars from bitshares' profits every year forever.

What would be a reasonable amount of money you would recommend capping the profit at?  4x the amount?

What if someone comes up with a better/cheaper option before the investor has recouped 1/4 of her investment? What should her loss be capped at?

Offline topcandle

Re: New Stealth Transfer Worker ($1000)
« Reply #94 on: November 23, 2015, 10:58:25 pm »
Mark me down as in favor of this anonymous lender being allowed to recoup their investment plus a generous amount.

Alternatively, and even better in my opinion, create a UIA, crowdsource the funding, then use future stealth fees to buy back the UIA.

Mark me down as 100% firmly opposed to them having lifetime royalties forever. In fact, mark me down as insulted by the proposal,.

This is so misguided in so many ways.  There is absolutely no gaurentee that the investor will recoup his money back.  So you want him to to be exposed to all the downside (losing his initial investment) while you get all the upside.  How fair is that?

project succeeds and blows up. for 45,000 this person bought millions of dollars from bitshares' profits every year forever.

So what happens when there is a stronger privacy standard?  Maybe happens a month later after this one is implemented.  What then?  He lost all his money.  Of course he should get lifetime fees given that there will be always  a newer standard in the future that will threaten his lifetime revenues stream. 
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Offline DMo09

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Re: New Stealth Transfer Worker ($1000)
« Reply #95 on: November 23, 2015, 11:02:09 pm »
What if ROI was capped at $5 Million.  Would the investor be dissuaded?   ...  $5 Mil is far short of lifetime, IF Bts is a big success...

Offline rgcrypto

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Re: New Stealth Transfer Worker ($1000)
« Reply #96 on: November 23, 2015, 11:05:35 pm »
Mark me down as in favor of this anonymous lender being allowed to recoup their investment plus a generous amount.

Alternatively, and even better in my opinion, create a UIA, crowdsource the funding, then use future stealth fees to buy back the UIA.

Mark me down as 100% firmly opposed to them having lifetime royalties forever. In fact, mark me down as insulted by the proposal,.

This is so misguided in so many ways.  There is absolutely no gaurentee that the investor will recoup his money back.  So you want him to to be exposed to all the downside (losing his initial investment) while you get all the upside.  How fair is that?

project succeeds and blows up. for 45,000 this person bought millions of dollars from bitshares' profits every year forever.

So what happens when there is a stronger privacy standard?  Maybe happens a month later after this one is implemented.  What then?  He lost all his money.  Of course he should get lifetime fees given that there will be always  a newer standard in the future that will threaten his lifetime revenues stream.

Good way to think about the market and how his revenue stream isnt guaranteed forever +5%
He would have to update the feature at his own expense in order to secure his position overtime.

In my opinion, if someone is paying 100% and risking 100% of his money, he/she should deserve the maximum return he can get from it.
Even if that feature isn't a killer app for our marketcap, at least we got a new feature...for FREE.

Now making an offering of STEALTH (UIA) and doing something like METAFEE would help get the community support, get free marketing and early adopter of his product or service.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2015, 11:08:20 pm by rgcrypto »

Offline tonyk

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Re: New Stealth Transfer Worker ($1000)
« Reply #97 on: November 23, 2015, 11:07:29 pm »
I really do not get 'the no lifetime fees' crowd.

What is up with you people? Someone making too much money, according to you?

If yes go pay it yourselves, or get up and organize it as a UIA funding that you can buy into...


PS
And keep in mind that I say that while I have only 3 prime suspects for this secret investor - CNX being one of those.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2015, 11:13:08 pm by tonyk »
Lack of arbitrage is the problem, isn't it. And this 'should' solves it.

Offline Akado

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Re: New Stealth Transfer Worker ($1000)
« Reply #98 on: November 23, 2015, 11:14:08 pm »
I really do not get 'the no lifetime fees' crowd.

What is up with you people? Someone making too much money, according to you?

If yes go pay it yourselves, or get up and organize it as a UIA funding that you can buy into...


PS
And keep in mind that I say that while I have only 3 prime suspects for this secret investor - CNX being one of those.

Nothing is ever good enough in BTS land
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Offline bytemaster

Re: New Stealth Transfer Worker ($1000)
« Reply #99 on: November 23, 2015, 11:19:29 pm »
Mark me down as in favor of this anonymous lender being allowed to recoup their investment plus a generous amount.

Alternatively, and even better in my opinion, create a UIA, crowdsource the funding, then use future stealth fees to buy back the UIA.

Mark me down as 100% firmly opposed to them having lifetime royalties forever. In fact, mark me down as insulted by the proposal,.

This is so misguided in so many ways.  There is absolutely no gaurentee that the investor will recoup his money back.  So you want him to to be exposed to all the downside (losing his initial investment) while you get all the upside.  How fair is that?

project succeeds and blows up. for 45,000 this person bought millions of dollars from bitshares' profits every year forever.

What would be a reasonable amount of money you would recommend capping the profit at?  4x the amount?

Here is my take on it:

1. The revenue split must be high during the "pay back period" and low during the "profit period".
2. $45,000 only buys so much UI work. Eventually others will want to fund additional improvements (QR integration, etc). The network can only reallocate its own cut of the revenue stream and therefore should make sure it has something left to allocate for future generations.
3. Each feature is like a MINI-DAC within a DAC.  If there is a UIA issued for the feature, owners of that UIA should be able to vote to issue new shares and fund improvements to their feature. This would be the ideal long-term solution for many different "rounds" of funds being used to enhance the same feature.
4. The Risk/Reward profile means that capping the reward will make some projects not worth the risk. In other words, it has significant impact on the potential funding.

If you think that there is a 1:4 chance that bitshares reaches 200 stealth transactions per day and maintains its current valuation for the next 3 years then a 4x return is "even odds" and doesn't even make the speculator any money.  In other words, rolling the dice over and over again will result in them breaking even. A game that isn't even worth playing.  Expecting BTS to appreciate is not compensation for someone who could just buy BTS and hold who has the added benefit of liquidity.    Only the possibility of unlimited upside potential even if it is only 1% of all relevant fees is interesting to most investors at this stage in the game. Later, if BitShares were as successful as Bitcoin then the odds of winning are greater and thus it becomes possible to limit the upside and still attract investors.

One last point, raising money for new features via the issuance of a UIA must be done very carefully to avoid creating a security. By encoding the payback methods into the blockchain and holding the funds hostage until the feature is delivered the value of the UIA can be arranged to never depend upon the actions of another and thus not a security. Spending the funds prior to delivering the feature can create a security.

A prediction market asset can be used to "pre-fund" the feature.  Anyone who wants to participate in the fundraiser can lock funds in collateral for the UIA and then transfer the UIA lent into circulation with the caveat that once borrowed you cannot cover your position until after the cut-off date (refund date).  If the desired level of funding is reached then you can never close your position except by selling the asset on the market.  The funds held as collateral get transferred to the company that produced the feature and the UIA get bought back over time from fees.   Anyway, there are a few small rule changes to the asset management code and a new operation or two and we can have a system in place whereby committee members can jointly act as escrow agents on the crowd fund (releasing the funds to the proper person only upon completion of the work).












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Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract between myself and anyone else.   These are merely my opinions and I reserve the right to change them at any time.

Offline bytemaster

Re: New Stealth Transfer Worker ($1000)
« Reply #100 on: November 23, 2015, 11:21:56 pm »
I really do not get 'the no lifetime fees' crowd.

What is up with you people? Someone making too much money, according to you?

If yes go pay it yourselves, or get up and organize it as a UIA funding that you can buy into...


PS
And keep in mind that I say that while I have only 3 prime suspects for this secret investor - CNX being one of those.

CNX is not one of them, nor is it CCEDK nor Bunker.   In other words, there is no slight of hand here, I just wanted to air the idea without involving them.  Would the mystery investor please speak up if you are ok discussing this publicly?
For the latest updates checkout my blog: http://bytemaster.bitshares.org
Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract between myself and anyone else.   These are merely my opinions and I reserve the right to change them at any time.

Offline onceuponatime

Re: New Stealth Transfer Worker ($1000)
« Reply #101 on: November 23, 2015, 11:32:26 pm »
I really do not get 'the no lifetime fees' crowd.

What is up with you people? Someone making too much money, according to you?

If yes go pay it yourselves, or get up and organize it as a UIA funding that you can buy into...


PS
And keep in mind that I say that while I have only 3 prime suspects for this secret investor - CNX being one of those.

CNX is not one of them, nor is it CCEDK nor Bunker.   In other words, there is no slight of hand here, I just wanted to air the idea without involving them.  Would the mystery investor please speak up if you are ok discussing this publicly?

I approached Stan and Dan with the thought of my paying CNX $45,000 to get the Stealth work funded. This is a huge chunk of my lifetime savings, and it is a huge risk for me to be taking. However, I am in total harmony with Bytemaster's philosophy and goals as far as I understand them and want this project to succeed, and to succeed .

I find that a lot of community members are expecting others to do the work needed to get this project rolling for free or for less than market rates. And out and out jealousy rearing its ugly head in some comments today.

Tuck Fheman

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Re: New Stealth Transfer Worker ($1000)
« Reply #102 on: November 23, 2015, 11:36:18 pm »
I approached Stan and Dan with the thought of my paying CNX $45,000 to get the Stealth work funded. This is a huge chunk of my lifetime savings, and it is a huge risk for me to be taking. However, I am in total harmony with Bytemaster's philosophy and goals as far as I understand them and want this project to succeed, and to succeed .

#sharebits "onceuponatime" 1000 FISTBUMP
#sharebits "onceuponatime" 1 HIGHFIVE
#sharebits "onceuponatime" 1 THANKYOU

^ it may be awhile until those kick in, the bot has been down most of the day from what I can tell.


I find that a lot of community members are expecting others to do the work needed to get this project rolling for free or for less than market rates.

#sharebits "onceuponatime" 1 IFEELYABRO

Offline Ben Mason

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Re: New Stealth Transfer Worker ($1000)
« Reply #103 on: November 23, 2015, 11:38:39 pm »
This is a most exiting development! i think the terms are reasonable given the risks and the evolutionary nature of the technology.

You have my support onceuponatime.

Offline NotSmart

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Re: New Stealth Transfer Worker ($1000)
« Reply #104 on: November 23, 2015, 11:40:48 pm »
I really do not get 'the no lifetime fees' crowd.

What is up with you people? Someone making too much money, according to you?

If yes go pay it yourselves, or get up and organize it as a UIA funding that you can buy into...


PS
And keep in mind that I say that while I have only 3 prime suspects for this secret investor - CNX being one of those.

CNX is not one of them, nor is it CCEDK nor Bunker.   In other words, there is no slight of hand here, I just wanted to air the idea without involving them.  Would the mystery investor please speak up if you are ok discussing this publicly?

I approached Stan and Dan with the thought of my paying CNX $45,000 to get the Stealth work funded. This is a huge chunk of my lifetime savings, and it is a huge risk for me to be taking. However, I am in total harmony with Bytemaster's philosophy and goals as far as I understand them and want this project to succeed, and to succeed .

I find that a lot of community members are expecting others to do the work needed to get this project rolling for free or for less than market rates. And out and out jealousy rearing its ugly head in some comments today.

Any reason you prefer stealth transfer over bond or prediction market? Is it because you think it is more important or you feel that the developers are intent on doing this first?

Will you be open to a crowd funding where you dont have to put up the whole $45,000?

Only curious, dont attribute anything to my questions.