Author Topic: BitShares Dice FBA  (Read 14941 times)

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Offline Empirical1.2

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The challenge with gambling is that it exposes the developers of the software to more risk than just about any other thing we could write.

Didn't the creating of Augur mean it's ok to do this sort of stuff? Assuming it's decentralized and there's no need for a specific 3rd party to host it...

Not necessarily OK they are taking an educated risk

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What about the legal / regulatory aspect of this?

We have been in active, constructive communications with past and current members of key regulatory agencies, including the CFTC.
This legal analysis was written by one of our advisors (and two other friends of the project). Page 67, section b "Decentralized Applications," pg. 70, 2. "Predictions Markets," and pg. 73, section c "Law and Decentralization" are the parts that relate to us. We think it captures our views on how regulators will approach this.
The law does not prohibit the creation of open-source, decentralized prediction market software, nor the distribution of of cryptocurrencytokens. In fact, writing source-code is a protected activity under the First Amendment as demonstrated in Junger v. Daly.
We have examined legal precedents and case law, our legal advisory is world-class and we are being entirely transparent about what we are building. We have been, and are more than happy to continue, engaging in discussions with any interested parties, including regulatory authorites, about the software.

http://www.augur.net/blog/augur-answers

« Last Edit: December 14, 2015, 12:26:18 am by Empirical1.2 »
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Offline Akado

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The challenge with gambling is that it exposes the developers of the software to more risk than just about any other thing we could write.

Didn't the creating of Augur mean it's ok to do this sort of stuff? Assuming it's decentralized and there's no need for a specific 3rd party to host it...
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Offline ebit

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I like this idea. 
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Offline Empirical1.2

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The challenge with gambling is that it exposes the developers of the software to more risk than just about any other thing we could write.

Thanks for the reply, completely understandable but obviously a pity.

This might not be relevant, I don't speak code, but it seems Vitalik is writing gambling related code for Ethereum...

https://m.reddit.com/r/ethereum/comments/3kwsaf/if_you_are_going_to_be_building_gambling_sites/

https://github.com/ethereum/dapp-bin/blob/master/serpent_gamble/prepare.py

I guess the difference is it's then up to third parties to implement it.
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Offline bytemaster

The challenge with gambling is that it exposes the developers of the software to more risk than just about any other thing we could write.
For the latest updates checkout my blog: http://bytemaster.bitshares.org
Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract between myself and anyone else.   These are merely my opinions and I reserve the right to change them at any time.

Offline Empirical1.2

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I would prefer to see cannabis commodities and assets than to see blatant gambling because it only will take away from the legitimate features like prediction markets. If someone does want to do a dice type feature why not just make it external to Bitshares or use DAC Play?

Prediction markets will offer sports betting which is 'blatant gambling' and that is going to ruffle a whole lot more feathers than dice.

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Augur may become the greatest gambling platform in history

...Augur is destined to become the cypherpunks answer to gambling prohibition—the betting man’s version of the online drug market Silk Road...

Augur also serves the less high-minded—though no less noble—purpose of providing cost savings and convenience to gamblers. Restrictions on gambling serve to protect government revenue at the betting man's expense. State-sanctioned casino operators pay high taxes, and state-run lotteries fleece their customers. But there's no logical or moral case for government restrictions on gambling, since no third party is harmed when consenting adults wager money on the future. Augur actually has the potential to make the world safer by taking away market share in the gambling industry from criminals.


https://reason.com/blog/2015/08/11/augur-gambling-prediction-ethereum

There is a huge difference between dice which is blatant gambling and prediction markets. Prediction markets are more than just gambling because you can analyze a prediction market to get truly valuable information.

You get nothing of value from analyzing dice. Dice is just gambling, it's literally junk information, it's junk food. Why should we sell junk food when we can sell gourmet food in our restaurant?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Futarchy

Yes you can ask some interesting questions via prediction markets, but their bread and butter will be 90% sports betting where the demand is, so there will be no sugar coating that whatever platform offers prediction markets is among other things a blatant gambling platform.

Do you not see the heat daily fantasy betting is getting in the US at the moment?
http://voiceherald.com/2015/12/13/fantasy-sport-sites-stay-open-despite-illegal-gambling.html

At the same time DraftKings are willing to take the risk because they like dollar, dollar bills y'all....

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"Global opportunity for online betting and casino market estimated at $27 (billion) now, $36B by 2018," one slide in DraftKings' presentation said. Another noted that "sports wagering" was a large potential market, with one estimate "that illegal sports wagers are as much as $380 billion annually."

http://www.tampabay.com/news/business/critics-say-ny-evidence-suggests-fantasy-sports-sites-consider-themselves/2257426

I'm all for prediction markets too, but they're going to take the same if not more heat than other forms of gambling.

« Last Edit: December 13, 2015, 09:35:00 pm by Empirical1.2 »
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Offline Akado

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I don't think bitshares needs to directly offer gambling, but I do think bitshares should have the simple tools available for someone who does want to offer it themselves.

OpenLedger is offering it... It's not decentralized, it's hosted by a third party, but still. That's what we need. Utility.
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What is the actual function we are talking about here, that dice requires, and bitshares does not currently have?

Is it just a transparent, verifiable RNG? 
Or does it require an escrow smart contract whose result is based on the outcome of the RNG?

Is the existence of such a function, by itself, considered gambling?  Or is it how a frontend website/client uses that function.
Are there any other legitimate uses for that type of contract?  Couldn't the contract be created with existing multisig functions?

At the very least we could have the RNG.  There's no way, that this alone could be considered gambling.  Random numbers are used for all sorts of things.   It would be up to the frontend how to use it, and only they would be subject to whatever legal or cultural consequences.   

I don't think bitshares needs to directly offer gambling, but I do think bitshares should have the simple tools available for someone who does want to offer it themselves. 

Offline fuzzy

I like this idea.  The only question I have is whether this is something PLAY will be doing.
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Offline Akado

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You already have this buy buying into OBITS which now also supports revenue from fun-casino! Why reinvent stuff? Use it to see how it works and then if you prefer work on a decentralized model or something. Unless you really want something different that would be that special I would just use the casino that will be integrated into OpenLedger
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Offline luckybit

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I would prefer to see cannabis commodities and assets than to see blatant gambling because it only will take away from the legitimate features like prediction markets. If someone does want to do a dice type feature why not just make it external to Bitshares or use DAC Play?

Prediction markets will offer sports betting which is 'blatant gambling' and that is going to ruffle a whole lot more feathers than dice.

Quote
Augur may become the greatest gambling platform in history

...Augur is destined to become the cypherpunks answer to gambling prohibition—the betting man’s version of the online drug market Silk Road...

Augur also serves the less high-minded—though no less noble—purpose of providing cost savings and convenience to gamblers. Restrictions on gambling serve to protect government revenue at the betting man's expense. State-sanctioned casino operators pay high taxes, and state-run lotteries fleece their customers. But there's no logical or moral case for government restrictions on gambling, since no third party is harmed when consenting adults wager money on the future. Augur actually has the potential to make the world safer by taking away market share in the gambling industry from criminals.


https://reason.com/blog/2015/08/11/augur-gambling-prediction-ethereum

There is a huge difference between dice which is blatant gambling and prediction markets. Prediction markets are more than just gambling because you can analyze a prediction market to get truly valuable information.

You get nothing of value from analyzing dice. Dice is just gambling, it's literally junk information, it's junk food. Why should we sell junk food when we can sell gourmet food in our restaurant?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Futarchy
« Last Edit: December 13, 2015, 08:55:37 pm by luckybit »
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Offline Empirical1.2

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I would prefer to see cannabis commodities and assets than to see blatant gambling because it only will take away from the legitimate features like prediction markets. If someone does want to do a dice type feature why not just make it external to Bitshares or use DAC Play?

Prediction markets will offer sports betting which is 'blatant gambling' and that is going to ruffle a whole lot more feathers than dice.

Quote
Augur may become the greatest gambling platform in history

...Augur is destined to become the cypherpunks answer to gambling prohibition—the betting man’s version of the online drug market Silk Road...

Augur also serves the less high-minded—though no less noble—purpose of providing cost savings and convenience to gamblers. Restrictions on gambling serve to protect government revenue at the betting man's expense. State-sanctioned casino operators pay high taxes, and state-run lotteries fleece their customers. But there's no logical or moral case for government restrictions on gambling, since no third party is harmed when consenting adults wager money on the future. Augur actually has the potential to make the world safer by taking away market share in the gambling industry from criminals.


https://reason.com/blog/2015/08/11/augur-gambling-prediction-ethereum
« Last Edit: December 13, 2015, 07:20:35 pm by Empirical1.2 »
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Offline luckybit

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In terms of profit potential blockchain based dice would the most investable FBA imo.


Prediction markets are equally profitable with a lot less risk. Prediction markets solve real world problems and you can make a cause for many good uses for prediction markets. Gambling is not the same and gambling only exists to trick one group of people out of their money for the benefit of the holders of the asset.

The statistics, the odds, they almost always benefit the house, the casino, etc. Additionally one of the only companies to be attacked by the SEC happened to be Satoshi Dice, so why would anyone want to bring that particular attention onto Bitshares?

My opinion, gambling should not ever be an official feature. Gambling and prediction markets in the same interface, on the same platform, diminish the viability of both. If you're trying to promote prediction markets while some other group of people is trying to promote Bitshares as a casino, how are you supposed to disassociate prediction markets from gambling?

And they could then say Bitshares is just one big casino and how would you prove it isn't if you're treating it like a casino yourself? There are few ideas that I hate but I hate this idea to bring gambling onto Bitshares. It would offer no benefit that you couldn't get from actual markets, but it would bring all the risks that Bitshares is trying to avoid. It's like selling junk food in a high class gourmet restaurant.

In my opinion, all gambling should happen on DAC Play, the gaming platform specifically for not so serious stuff. You don't want to mix currency trading, stocks, gambling, with prediction markets and all of this other stuff in the same app because marketing wise and politically it's a mess. If I could vote against this FBA I would.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2015, 06:59:45 pm by luckybit »
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Offline luckybit

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Millions of Features, Features for Me!

There are far too many opportunities out there and prioritizing new features for BitShares becomes very challenging. 
Profit is perhaps the most important means of prioritizing.

So I would like to take some time to outline a plan I am devising for getting features lined up and prioritized based upon the concept of Fee Backed Assets (FBA). 

5. Gambling Systems


In terms of profit potential blockchain based dice would the most investable FBA imo.

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After you deposit bitcoins into Just Dice you have the option to invest all or part of your balance in the house bank. Just Dice takes 10% of the profit and distributes 90% to the investors in real time, every players losing bet makes your investment go up instantly!

Every players winning bet makes your investment go down but the odds are always in your favour and no one could ever send the house broke because the maximum profit per bet is 0.05% of the house bank.

Never has a feature that allows anybody in the world to put themselves at an advantageous position in a gambling operation been offered. That is normally reserved for those rich and politically connected enough to own a gambling operation or for the investor class with barriers to entry that preclude most of the world’s population.

On average your investment will increase 0.9% as often as the house bank is turned over. For example at the moment the house bank is ฿42,500 so every time that amount is wagered by users the site should make on average 1% profit with 0.9% of that going to investors. The house bank turns over approximately every 14 days on average! I first invested in Just Dice 3 months ago and the investment I made has risen 22.5% since then. So far the site has paid out ฿18,000 to investors.

The only risks are government seizure and shut down and hackers or the site operators disappearing with the money. This is sincerely the best passive investment I have ever found.

http://www.bitroll.co/just-dice-a-gambling-investment-revolution/

Unfortunately centralized sites are more prone to closures or hit and runs...

http://www.bitroll.co/just-dice-closes-due-to-canadian-bitcoin-regulations/

JustDice's bankroll was >  ฿50,000 (Double the CAP of BTS) & from the above, appeared to be making >$300 000 profit a month.

Mixing gambling into a decentralized exchange will KILL BITSHARES for China and ruin Bitshares for a lot of people. I would say due to the regulatory and legal ramifications the risks of adding gambling to Bitshares is both unnecessary and exceeds any possible benefit.

If you add gambling to Btishares in as a primary feature then the whole network could be seen as a pyramid scheme, like MMM, which could result in it being banned in China and Russia. It could also make Bitshares very unpopular in the United States.

I would prefer to see cannabis commodities and assets than to see blatant gambling because it only will take away from the legitimate features like prediction markets. If someone does want to do a dice type feature why not just make it external to Bitshares or use DAC Play?
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Offline Empirical1.2

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IMO, its best to start centralized, see the viability and market interest, then go for decentralized.
So many crypto-projects scream decentralized from day one, spend thousands of dollars and hundreds of hours in product development and turn up with a product that ends up either being shit or used by nobody.
The lean model guys. Cut the fat!

The weakness of decentralized dice on the BTS blockchain is that despite BTS speed, it's still slower than centralized sites and it can't cater to microbets.  However you'd be comparing apples and oranges to use your centralized option as a gauge for BTSDice potential Your model has no USP for Bitcoin gamblers unfortunately, but there may still be a small market for it, especially if you accept BTS directly & you're one of the first movers, so I wish you luck.

Nearly all gambling will be moving to the blockchain, it's an inevitability, it's a hugely profitable industry controlled by centralised monopolies & governments. The blockchain can access all markets and undercut many existing options by >80%. (Lotteries, Sports betting, Poker, Casino games) along with the advantages of decentralization.

Augur is currently valued at $25 million (possibly due to limited market supply) https://gatecoin.com/
So we know investors see potential even before a bet has been placed.

I don't know specifically what gambling systems BM has in mind but it will only be developed if investors think there's enough potential and make bids on the FBA.

« Last Edit: December 13, 2015, 06:13:37 pm by Empirical1.2 »
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