Author Topic: poll for the "1 BTS for transfer" proposal  (Read 42437 times)

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Offline bitcrab

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Re: poll for the "1 BTS for transfer" proposal
« Reply #105 on: January 28, 2016, 03:57:19 pm »
I hope you do not announce it in recent days,  if you announce it today I can only reject it, no other choice.
[member=23]bitcrab[/member]
And what is the reason for you having no choice?

because I plan to propose to do the real fee reduction to 1 BTS if I get enough support from forum.
so it will be better to announce your worker proposal after I finished this issue, either fail or succeed finally.
my proposal do not cost BTS, while yours will cost a lot.

I'm sorry bitcrab, but who are you exactly?

does below answer your question?


Offline tbone

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Re: poll for the "1 BTS for transfer" proposal
« Reply #106 on: January 28, 2016, 04:13:36 pm »
of couse low fee could bring us more liquility than high fee.
you even doubt this?
I have no idea about this duscussion
The crucial thing here is: how much more?
Yes, I doubt that it will change liquidity by more than 5%.
If you think otherwise, you need to prove it somehow, so that we have some rational basis to assume it's worth destroying the referral business incentive.
nobody can tell you the exactely numuber
and I have no interesting for destroy the referral business totally.
like stan had said, you need to think bigger, don't focus on the poor transfer/trade fees
referral business can work perfect with low trade/transfer fees, just think other more special service, take money from those service.

alt, I do believe your intention are good.
But can you honestly say you are sure that lowering transfer fees to 1 BTS will make a significant change?
Would you honestly be willing to lose people like Ronny (the owner of OpenLedger), just to execute this experiment and find out that nothing has changed?

The current transfer fees, most probably, are not the primary reason for low user adoption and low liquidity.
We need to remove the primary reason first. Then we can revise the fees.
it's not about the fees directely, let me explain it more clearly

As I have heard from many people, they said BTS community only know money,
they will dilution as they like, they set a much higher fees sent to refer account
they do everything for money, require payment for every hour's work.

this is what others see BTS community
is this what you want to see?
everyone do everything would ask for a payment from dilution
if bytemaster, xeroc, cass, svk, abit can ask for payment for their work, why others need to work freely

I don't belive a community like this can success.
my advice is don't earn money from transfer/trade fees, just need to avoid spam attack
we develop special service to earn money, the special service people can choose whether need to use it.
we can eary more money from special service.
and try our best to stop dilution, pay from the network service's income.

Think about this.  We have costs.  And if income is too low, those costs cause dilution.  So you are in favor of dramatically reducing fees, and at the same time you are so against dilution.  Do you see the contradiction? 

In any event, I think your point about having low fees for transfers and higher fees for "special services" is reasonable.  I don't think most people here would disagree with that.  But if we set the fees crazy low, we're just throwing away money and achieving nothing except making the referral program less effective.  Also,  we can't have a real conversation if you're talking about a 1BTS flat fee.  If you want to be taken seriously, you should stop that immediately. 

I suggest discussing a reasonable fee schedule that reduces fees but not too dramatically, covers network costs, ensures spam deterrence, and enables micro-transactions.  I think something like .1% fee with $.005 minimum and around $.10-.20 maximum would work.

By the way, I would also advance the idea of having a different fee for CNY vs. USD transactions.  So with the example above, perhaps the same .1% fee and $.005 minimum, but a maximum of around $.03-.05.   Making this work might not be trivial, but I'm sure it's very possible.  And it might help us arrive at a solution that works for everyone.  That way we can move on and work together to solve the BitAssets liquidity problem.  What do you think?

Offline Empirical1.2

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Re: poll for the "1 BTS for transfer" proposal
« Reply #107 on: January 28, 2016, 04:22:41 pm »
I suggest discussing a reasonable fee schedule that reduces fees but not too dramatically, covers network costs, ensures spam deterrence, and enables micro-transactions.  I think something like .1% fee with $.005 minimum and around $.10-.20 maximum would work.

 +5%

I  think something like 0.1% with a minimum of $0.01 and maximum of $0.1/$0.2 would be better.
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Offline JonnyB

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Re: poll for the "1 BTS for transfer" proposal
« Reply #108 on: January 28, 2016, 04:24:59 pm »
Can we just take this to voting and get done with it please? I think we need [member=30868]kenCode[/member] , [member=23432]ccedk[/member], [member=37127]JonnyBitcoin[/member] and [member=23912]monsterer[/member] / [member=3967]Shentist[/member]  to tell us if they agree/disagree with this and the impact it would have to their businesses so everyone gets enlightened. Wasn't Metaexchange thinking about the possibility to migrate to BitShares? How would this affect you?

Then finally vote and get this done with. We have already lost too many time to this kind of discussions instead of addressing other important matters.

If we only dedicated so much time to find new ways to provide liquidity instead of insisting on this matter, I'm sure we would already have figured something out. Instead, we're constantly beating the same stuff over and over again..

[member=16353]Akado[/member]  Totally agree with you here, we waste too much time on little things like this, I think fees are fine how they are now. 
We really need to prioritise what are the most important things (liquidity)
I'm always bringing it up but nothing ever gets done. Can't the committee just sell the trade fees in to the market. that would be a start.
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Offline yvv

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Re: poll for the "1 BTS for transfer" proposal
« Reply #109 on: January 28, 2016, 04:29:00 pm »
If you are proposing to reduce fee to the level below what a transaction actually costs, you should compensate the difference out of your pocket. This would be a nice promotion for bitshares.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2016, 04:31:25 pm by yvv »

Offline bitcrab

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Re: poll for the "1 BTS for transfer" proposal
« Reply #110 on: January 28, 2016, 04:31:48 pm »
If you are proposing to reduce fee to the level below what a transaction actually costs, you need to compensate the difference out of your pocket. This would be a nice promotion for bitshares.

what's the exact cost of 1 transfer? can you tell me exactly?

Offline yvv

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Re: poll for the "1 BTS for transfer" proposal
« Reply #111 on: January 28, 2016, 04:38:47 pm »
If you are proposing to reduce fee to the level below what a transaction actually costs, you need to compensate the difference out of your pocket. This would be a nice promotion for bitshares.

what's the exact cost of 1 transfer? can you tell me exactly?

I have no idea, but somebody else on this forum claimed it to be $0.005-$0.01. I think, this should not be difficult to verify.

Offline alt

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Re: poll for the "1 BTS for transfer" proposal
« Reply #112 on: January 28, 2016, 04:40:53 pm »
If you are proposing to reduce fee to the level below what a transaction actually costs, you need to compensate the difference out of your pocket. This would be a nice promotion for bitshares.

what's the exact cost of 1 transfer? can you tell me exactly?
suppose we have 1tps volume, we'll support at least 864000(30*24*60*20) transactions per month
we have 25 witness, each witness need a vps cost 20USD/month
the cost is 25*20/864000 = 0.000578703 USD = 0.15 BTS

Offline alt

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Re: poll for the "1 BTS for transfer" proposal
« Reply #113 on: January 28, 2016, 04:43:21 pm »
[member=23]bitcrab[/member] please remove your personal infomation, you have right of privacy.

Offline BTSdac

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Re: poll for the "1 BTS for transfer" proposal
« Reply #114 on: January 28, 2016, 04:48:24 pm »
If you are proposing to reduce fee to the level below what a transaction actually costs, you need to compensate the difference out of your pocket. This would be a nice promotion for bitshares.

what's the exact cost of 1 transfer? can you tell me exactly?
suppose we have 1tps volume, we'll support at least 864000(30*24*60*20) transactions per month
we have 25 witness, each witness need a vps cost 20USD/month
the cost is 25*20/864000 = 0.000578703 USD = 0.15 BTS
2592000(30*24*60*60)
we have 25 witness, each witness need a vps cost 20USD/month
the cost is 25*20/2592000= 0.000019 USD = 0.05 BTS
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Offline wallace

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Re: poll for the "1 BTS for transfer" proposal
« Reply #115 on: January 28, 2016, 04:52:19 pm »
If you are proposing to reduce fee to the level below what a transaction actually costs, you need to compensate the difference out of your pocket. This would be a nice promotion for bitshares.

what's the exact cost of 1 transfer? can you tell me exactly?
suppose we have 1tps volume, we'll support at least 864000(30*24*60*20) transactions per month
we have 25 witness, each witness need a vps cost 20USD/month
the cost is 25*20/864000 = 0.000578703 USD = 0.15 BTS
2592000(30*24*60*60)
we have 25 witness, each witness need a vps cost 20USD/month
the cost is 25*20/2592000= 0.000019 USD = 0.05 BTS

I think alt means 1 block 1 transaction, not 1 min 1 transaction
give me money, I will do...

Offline bitcrab

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Re: poll for the "1 BTS for transfer" proposal
« Reply #116 on: January 28, 2016, 04:53:16 pm »
You stated your point well.

My concern with removing the incentive for the referral program, is that its just going to cause more of this "bitshares is always changing the rules" talk.  wouldn't that hurt us more than finding a solution that keeps the referral program in tact?  Abit has stated that he would accept the majority of his payment as vesting for 6 months or 1 year.

Thanks for the clear communication on this bitcrab.

thanks puppies.
if the change is greatly agreed by the community, then that's not a problem.
I plan to just reduce the transfer fee to 1 BTS, without touching others.
I have stated that I am ok to pay 3M BTS to a worker proposal, the precondition is that I believe the proposal will lead to a consequence which is satisfactory enough.

Offline BunkerChainLabs-DataSecurityNode

Re: poll for the "1 BTS for transfer" proposal
« Reply #117 on: January 28, 2016, 04:57:04 pm »
If you are proposing to reduce fee to the level below what a transaction actually costs, you need to compensate the difference out of your pocket. This would be a nice promotion for bitshares.

what's the exact cost of 1 transfer? can you tell me exactly?
suppose we have 1tps volume, we'll support at least 864000(30*24*60*20) transactions per month
we have 25 witness, each witness need a vps cost 20USD/month
the cost is 25*20/864000 = 0.000578703 USD = 0.15 BTS

Those numbers are wrong. This is blatant manipulation of facts.

This means cutting witness pay by a factor of more than 7 and reducing their ability to support the network and leaving no reason for them to continue maintaining it. We would also have to stop publishing bitasset feeds. There goes all our Smartcoins.

This will effectively make Witnesses subject to collusion by whom ever will pay them the difference to do the work to maintain the network.

This is utterly a plan for the entire disassembly of DPOS and the destruction of Bitshares DEX.

Wow.. this is what you and bitcrab want and you both are on the Committee meant to protect Bitshares?

Let the Bitshares holders decide with their votes for Committee members accordingly if they think this is in the best interests of Bitshares.
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Offline tbone

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Re: poll for the "1 BTS for transfer" proposal
« Reply #118 on: January 28, 2016, 05:02:13 pm »
If you are proposing to reduce fee to the level below what a transaction actually costs, you need to compensate the difference out of your pocket. This would be a nice promotion for bitshares.

what's the exact cost of 1 transfer? can you tell me exactly?

BM said in recent mumble session that in order to cover costs and prevent spam, the minimum fee should be $.005-.01.  You can't advance a serious proposal without knowing this number.  Also, it doesn't make sense to talk about fees in terms of BTS considering its volatility. 

I would urge you to consider the percentage-based fee (with USD or CNY max/min) as this can meet the varied goals (reduces fees but not too dramatically, covers network costs, spam deterrence, and enables micro-transactions).  Yes, there is a dilution cost, but it's not substantial and I do believe [member=18687]abit[/member] agreed to have the payments vest.  Finally, what do you think of a possible compromise where the max fee can potentially be set lower for CNY than USD?

I really hope we can get this behind us very soon.  As [member=37127]JonnyBitcoin[/member] has been urging, we really need to get on with the business of improving liquidity for BitAssets and it would be great if we could all put our heads together for the common good.

Offline alt

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Re: poll for the "1 BTS for transfer" proposal
« Reply #119 on: January 28, 2016, 05:04:57 pm »
before BTS2, the fee is 0.1 BTS, it runs good, so security or cost is not a good reason to object 1BTS fee
« Last Edit: January 28, 2016, 05:08:11 pm by alt »