Author Topic: poll for the "1 BTS for transfer" proposal  (Read 42440 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Akado

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2752
    • View Profile
  • BitShares: akado
Re: poll for the "1 BTS for transfer" proposal
« Reply #90 on: January 28, 2016, 03:21:49 pm »
a boss open a store and sell product A.
normally in the market the price of A is $1.
for marketing the boss raise the price to $20, and broadcast to everyone: "if you can introduce another guy to buy, each time he pay $20, you will get $16 as cashback."
and he also tell everyone:"if you prepay $20000, then you can get $16 cashback 9 months later each time you buy one A."
someone called this referral program.

So you're telling me that the transfer of 1 BTS is actually higher just because of the referral system? This doesn't even make any sense.

First, by the time BitShares gets to one dollar (if it does), of course sending BitShares won't cost you a 20$ fee. It will have been lowered by the committee way before in order to keep up. Fees should be pegged to USD. You're assuming it does stay the same. We're talking with completely different numbers, you can't just compare stuff this way, it's not logical

Second, most users don't and won't send 1 BTS for quite a while. We're not going for micropayments for a while and even if we did, there would be a solution that wouldn't jeopardize the entire system like this. Most users transfer or trade thousands or hundreds of BitShares at once.

This argument doesn't make sense at all. If your point was to prove that isn't a referral system, well, I don't know if it's the best concept, but it's working. If your point is to prove BTS transfer fees are high for the sake of the referral system, this doesn't make any sense because obviously the fee of sending 1 BTS if it ever reaches parity with the dollar won't ever be 20 BTS obviously.


Once again you don't provide proof that this would significantly increase our volume! That's what missing. Do it, provide it and convince me with facts and you will get my support.

This is just changing stuff for a whim, just "because" and jeopardizing the network and BitShare's image as a brand simply "because". Just to try it out. Because someone "thinks" it's the right think to do without basing decisions on actual facts and data. The irony is that BitShares 2.0 and the referral system isn't even old yet to provide that same data you need so it's virtually impossible to prove atm that the referral system is broken.

This only leaves you with other option. If you can't prove the referral system is bad because it isn't old enough, you need to come up with something that shows us how our volume is going to increase.

Given this I ask you the following questions:

- Why we don't need the referral system» since you're making it useless
- How will the volume increase?
- How many new users will join to trade?
- How will you manage unsatisfied lifetime members?
- How will you handle the lack of businesses joining BitShares? Remember, businesses are the ones who bring customers.
- How will you handle the bad image BitShares will have due to lack of focus and constant change of decisions?
- If the exchange doesn't become profitable due to lack of fees, how will you handle development?

More importantly
- How does this "supposed" increase in volume compensate for all the damage that it will cause?

I think you can't really answer that because so far you've only provided us with assumptions.
https://metaexchange.info | Bitcoin<->Altcoin exchange | Instant | Safe | Low spreads

Offline Akado

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2752
    • View Profile
  • BitShares: akado
Re: poll for the "1 BTS for transfer" proposal
« Reply #91 on: January 28, 2016, 03:27:18 pm »

yes, because currently I do think lowering the fees is the right way to lead bitshares to success.

but why and how? this hasn't been explained. Business decisions made on assumptions while we already have people working for us because of the referral system and current fee structure.

Is it really worth it send OpenLedger and POS away just because of an assumption? What about other people? [member=37127]JonnyBitcoin[/member] is working on his exchange, there are other projects that we might not be aware of.

We're just going to send them away, because of assumptions? No facts or proof? We're doing this when we've shown signs of growing? After just 2 months? What's happening is actually positive and you want to mess it all up just because of an assumption.

Wow, just wow.
https://metaexchange.info | Bitcoin<->Altcoin exchange | Instant | Safe | Low spreads

Offline bitcrab

  • Committee member
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1903
    • View Profile
  • BitShares: bitcrab
  • GitHub: bitcrab
Re: poll for the "1 BTS for transfer" proposal
« Reply #92 on: January 28, 2016, 03:29:02 pm »
If you succeed, that would be the second time you pushed your agenda through a back door.  That is terrible behavior.  You need to be stopped and removed from the committee.

This. bitcrab is using exchange funds to get people with his 'agenda' voted into the committee and is now staging to do a hostile takeover.  Not to mention that the committee was mislead by him once already, I really hope that users wake up and remove bad actors like him for the stability of the network. This is not good.

regarding the force settlement issue, I have explained clearly in this post:
https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php/topic,20397.msg263064.html#msg263064
regarding the exchnage voting issue, I also give many explanation in this thread:
https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php/topic,20920.msg270837.html#msg270837

everyone here can judge by themselves, no need another to tell them one people is good or bad.

Offline tbone

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 632
    • View Profile
  • BitShares: tbone2
Re: poll for the "1 BTS for transfer" proposal
« Reply #93 on: January 28, 2016, 03:29:47 pm »
I hope you do not announce it in recent days,  if you announce it today I can only reject it, no other choice.
[member=23]bitcrab[/member]
And what is the reason for you having no choice?



because I plan to propose to do the real fee reduction to 1 BTS if I get enough support from forum.
so it will be better to announce your worker proposal after I finished this issue, either fail or succeed finally.
my proposal do not cost BTS, while yours will cost a lot.

Why do you continue to push for fees that are below our costs?  This is very irresponsible.  Also, even a flat fee at our cost would effectively kill the referral program.  If you succeed, that would be the second time you pushed your agenda through a back door.  That is terrible behavior.  You need to be stopped and removed from the committee.

why? just because a few people think this is not something you like?

You ask why?  Should I explain it to you like you're 5?  bitcrab is arguing to have a flat fee that is LESS than the cost to the network, and LESS than the spam deterrent.  He wants us to lose money on transfers, and he doesn't mind opening up an attack vector.  Do you think that is responsible behavior?

yes, because currently I do think lowering the fees is the right way to lead bitshares to success.

How can we have a rational conversation if you say you're ok with lowering the fees to BELOW spam deterrent?  Do you even know what that means?

Offline Akado

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2752
    • View Profile
  • BitShares: akado
Re: poll for the "1 BTS for transfer" proposal
« Reply #94 on: January 28, 2016, 03:30:51 pm »
Chinese community members of BM serious dissatisfaction >:( >:( >:(

lol, so what, they already sold

The fundamental issue that is dividing us is this:

Do we want adoption?

or do we want profitability?

Nothing was shown that proves 1 bts fee will create the desired adoption and that it will compensate for all the damage caused.
https://metaexchange.info | Bitcoin<->Altcoin exchange | Instant | Safe | Low spreads

Offline wallace

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 215
    • View Profile
Re: poll for the "1 BTS for transfer" proposal
« Reply #95 on: January 28, 2016, 03:32:27 pm »

yes, because currently I do think lowering the fees is the right way to lead bitshares to success.

but why and how? this hasn't been explained. Business decisions made on assumptions while we already have people working for us because of the referral system and current fee structure.

Is it really worth it send OpenLedger and POS away just because of an assumption? What about other people? [member=37127]JonnyBitcoin[/member] is working on his exchange, there are other projects that we might not be aware of.

We're just going to send them away, because of assumptions? No facts or proof? We're doing this when we've shown signs of growing? After just 2 months? What's happening is actually positive and you want to mess it all up just because of an assumption.

Wow, just wow.

I didn't get why lowering fees means send OL and jonny away?
give me money, I will do...

Offline lil_jay890

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1197
    • View Profile
Re: poll for the "1 BTS for transfer" proposal
« Reply #96 on: January 28, 2016, 03:33:54 pm »

yes, because currently I do think lowering the fees is the right way to lead bitshares to success.

but why and how? this hasn't been explained. Business decisions made on assumptions while we already have people working for us because of the referral system and current fee structure.

Is it really worth it send OpenLedger and POS away just because of an assumption? What about other people? [member=37127]JonnyBitcoin[/member] is working on his exchange, there are other projects that we might not be aware of.

We're just going to send them away, because of assumptions? No facts or proof? We're doing this when we've shown signs of growing? After just 2 months? What's happening is actually positive and you want to mess it all up just because of an assumption.

Wow, just wow.

I didn't get why lowering fees means send OL and jonny away?

Because it blows up the referral program

Offline BTSdac

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1219
    • View Profile
  • BitShares: K1
Re: poll for the "1 BTS for transfer" proposal
« Reply #97 on: January 28, 2016, 03:34:16 pm »
About the transfer fee , there are so many discuss ,  forum is not a good place to achieve the final agreement,  since we have voting system base on shares value,
so I suggest that create a new proposal that reduce the fee , and let all of us vote it by shares . 
github.com :pureland
BTS2.0 API :ws://139.196.37.179:8091
BTS2.0 API 数据源ws://139.196.37.179:8091

Offline alt

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2821
    • View Profile
  • BitShares: baozi
Re: poll for the &quot;1 BTS for transfer&quot; proposal
« Reply #98 on: January 28, 2016, 03:34:51 pm »
of couse low fee could bring us more liquility than high fee.
you even doubt this?
I have no idea about this duscussion
The crucial thing here is: how much more?
Yes, I doubt that it will change liquidity by more than 5%.
If you think otherwise, you need to prove it somehow, so that we have some rational basis to assume it's worth destroying the referral business incentive.
nobody can tell you the exactely numuber
and I have no interesting for destroy the referral business totally.
like stan had said, you need to think bigger, don't focus on the poor transfer/trade fees
referral business can work perfect with low trade/transfer fees, just think other more special service, take money from those service.

alt, I do believe your intention are good.
But can you honestly say you are sure that lowering transfer fees to 1 BTS will make a significant change?
Would you honestly be willing to lose people like Ronny (the owner of OpenLedger), just to execute this experiment and find out that nothing has changed?

The current transfer fees, most probably, are not the primary reason for low user adoption and low liquidity.
We need to remove the primary reason first. Then we can revise the fees.
it's not about the fees directely, let me explain it more clearly

As I have heard from many people, they said BTS community only know money,
they will dilution as they like, they set a much higher fees sent to refer account
they do everything for money, require payment for every hour's work.

this is what others see BTS community
is this what you want to see?
everyone do everything would ask for a payment from dilution
if bytemaster, xeroc, cass, svk, abit can ask for payment for their work, why others need to work freely

I don't belive a community like this can success.
my advice is don't earn money from transfer/trade fees, just need to avoid spam attack
we develop special service to earn money, the special service people can choose whether need to use it.
we can eary more money from special service.
and try our best to stop dilution, pay from the network service's income.

Offline Akado

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2752
    • View Profile
  • BitShares: akado
Re: poll for the "1 BTS for transfer" proposal
« Reply #99 on: January 28, 2016, 03:35:10 pm »

yes, because currently I do think lowering the fees is the right way to lead bitshares to success.

but why and how? this hasn't been explained. Business decisions made on assumptions while we already have people working for us because of the referral system and current fee structure.

Is it really worth it send OpenLedger and POS away just because of an assumption? What about other people? [member=37127]JonnyBitcoin[/member] is working on his exchange, there are other projects that we might not be aware of.

We're just going to send them away, because of assumptions? No facts or proof? We're doing this when we've shown signs of growing? After just 2 months? What's happening is actually positive and you want to mess it all up just because of an assumption.

Wow, just wow.

I didn't get why lowering fees means send OL and jonny away?

I dont know about Jonny but OL is definitely working based on the current fee model and without it, has no incentive to work. Like other businesses that might want to join.

Plus 1 bts fee makes the network easily vulnerable to spam
https://metaexchange.info | Bitcoin<->Altcoin exchange | Instant | Safe | Low spreads

Offline kenCode

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2283
    • View Profile
    • Agorise
Re: poll for the "1 BTS for transfer" proposal
« Reply #100 on: January 28, 2016, 03:39:13 pm »
I hope you do not announce it in recent days,  if you announce it today I can only reject it, no other choice.
[member=23]bitcrab[/member]
And what is the reason for you having no choice?

because I plan to propose to do the real fee reduction to 1 BTS if I get enough support from forum.
so it will be better to announce your worker proposal after I finished this issue, either fail or succeed finally.
my proposal do not cost BTS, while yours will cost a lot.

I'm sorry bitcrab, but who are you exactly?
kenCode - Decentraliser @ Agorise
Matrix/Keybase/Hive/Commun/Github: @Agorise
www.PalmPay.chat

Offline alt

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2821
    • View Profile
  • BitShares: baozi
Re: poll for the "1 BTS for transfer" proposal
« Reply #101 on: January 28, 2016, 03:43:03 pm »
You ask why?  Should I explain it to you like you're 5?  bitcrab is arguing to have a fat fee that is LESS than the cost to the network, and LESS than the spam deterrent.  He wants us to lose money on transfers, and he doesn't mind opening up an attack vector.  Do you think that is responsible behavior?

yes, because currently I do think lowering the fees is the right way to lead bitshares to success.

How can we have a rational conversation if you say you're ok with lowering the fees to BELOW spam deterrent?  Do you even know what that means?
if you are talking about avoid the spam sttack, the attacker should make order and cancel order, that's free 1 day ago, and now the cost is 0.1 BTS

Offline Akado

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2752
    • View Profile
  • BitShares: akado
Re: poll for the "1 BTS for transfer" proposal
« Reply #102 on: January 28, 2016, 03:47:52 pm »
Can we just take this to voting and get done with it please? I think we need [member=30868]kenCode[/member] , [member=23432]ccedk[/member], [member=37127]JonnyBitcoin[/member] and [member=23912]monsterer[/member] / [member=3967]Shentist[/member]  to tell us if they agree/disagree with this and the impact it would have to their businesses so everyone gets enlightened. Wasn't Metaexchange thinking about the possibility to migrate to BitShares? How would this affect you?

Then finally vote and get this done with. We have already lost too many time to this kind of discussions instead of addressing other important matters.

If we only dedicated so much time to find new ways to provide liquidity instead of insisting on this matter, I'm sure we would already have figured something out. Instead, we're constantly beating the same stuff over and over again..
https://metaexchange.info | Bitcoin<->Altcoin exchange | Instant | Safe | Low spreads

Offline wallace

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 215
    • View Profile
Re: poll for the "1 BTS for transfer" proposal
« Reply #103 on: January 28, 2016, 03:49:45 pm »

yes, because currently I do think lowering the fees is the right way to lead bitshares to success.

but why and how? this hasn't been explained. Business decisions made on assumptions while we already have people working for us because of the referral system and current fee structure.

Is it really worth it send OpenLedger and POS away just because of an assumption? What about other people? [member=37127]JonnyBitcoin[/member] is working on his exchange, there are other projects that we might not be aware of.

We're just going to send them away, because of assumptions? No facts or proof? We're doing this when we've shown signs of growing? After just 2 months? What's happening is actually positive and you want to mess it all up just because of an assumption.

Wow, just wow.

I didn't get why lowering fees means send OL and jonny away?

I dont know about Jonny but OL is definitely working based on the current fee model and without it, has no incentive to work. Like other businesses that might want to join.

Plus 1 bts fee makes the network easily vulnerable to spam

as I know OL is an exchange based on bts chain, a industry level trade experiences and plenty of users and liquidity. the propaganda we made to the exchange is based on this. if only a refreral system can bring users that's not our orignial goal, just if, and I don't see the actual real users number support this. what we need is to attract users, current high fees prevent a lot of crypto people join into bts, don't tell me I'm wrong, I'm in chinese QQ group and a lot of users complain this. they have no incentive to promote our prodcut, I'm very disappointed about this, maybe you guys don't mind this, you think these people are only speculators, but I think these people just what currently we need.
give me money, I will do...

Offline fav

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4278
  • No Pain, No Gain
    • View Profile
    • Follow Me!
  • BitShares: fav
Re: poll for the "1 BTS for transfer" proposal
« Reply #104 on: January 28, 2016, 03:51:57 pm »
I hope you do not announce it in recent days,  if you announce it today I can only reject it, no other choice.
[member=23]bitcrab[/member]
And what is the reason for you having no choice?

because I plan to propose to do the real fee reduction to 1 BTS if I get enough support from forum.
so it will be better to announce your worker proposal after I finished this issue, either fail or succeed finally.
my proposal do not cost BTS, while yours will cost a lot.

Why do you continue to push for fees that are below our costs?  This is very irresponsible.  Also, even a flat fee at our cost would effectively kill the referral program.  If you succeed, that would be the second time you pushed your agenda through a back door.  That is terrible behavior.  You need to be stopped and removed from the committee.

 +5%