Author Topic: poll for the "1 BTS for transfer" proposal  (Read 47391 times)

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Offline xeroc

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The referral program is broken for reasons that no one has ever brought up on these forums (or at least I haven't seen it brought up.) Do not make important decisions based on it.
I had an epiphany today regarding it. I do not have time to explain now as I have school work that is due by 12am. Also, it is a lucrative business plan so I'm not sure if I want to explain it publicly without taking a stab at being the "first mover" on the said business plan.

That doesn't really help. You say it's broken but then you say you can't disclose. You have every right to do so but that doesn't prove anything. For anyone else you're arguing it's broken just "because".

Feel free to ignore me... the business plan would be more lucrative if fees stay as-is (high) and the referral program remain unchanged.  [emoji14]
Lucrative for whom? You or the bts shareholders?

This brings us right to the core of the problem. No matter what fee is chosen, you cant please everyone.

We cant bring in micropayment users and at the same time keep businesses that run solely on top of the referral fee for transfer operations.

Offline CoinHoarder

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The referral program is broken for reasons that no one has ever brought up on these forums (or at least I haven't seen it brought up.) Do not make important decisions based on it.
I had an epiphany today regarding it. I do not have time to explain now as I have school work that is due by 12am. Also, it is a lucrative business plan so I'm not sure if I want to explain it publicly without taking a stab at being the "first mover" on the said business plan.

That doesn't really help. You say it's broken but then you say you can't disclose. You have every right to do so but that doesn't prove anything. For anyone else you're arguing it's broken just "because".

Feel free to ignore me... the business plan would be more lucrative if fees stay as-is (high) and the referral program remain unchanged.  :P
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Offline Akado

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The referral program is broken for reasons that no one has ever brought up on these forums (or at least I haven't seen it brought up.) Do not make important decisions based on it.
I had an epiphany today regarding it. I do not have time to explain now as I have school work that is due by 12am. Also, it is a lucrative business plan so I'm not sure if I want to explain it publicly without taking a stab at being the "first mover" on the said business plan.

That doesn't really help. You say it's broken but then you say you can't disclose. You have every right to do so but that doesn't prove anything. For anyone else you're arguing it's broken just "because".
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Offline CoinHoarder

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The referral program is broken for reasons that no one has ever brought up on these forums (or at least I haven't seen it brought up.) Do not make important decisions based on it.
I had an epiphany today regarding it. I do not have time to explain now as I have school work that is due by 12am. Also, it is a lucrative business plan (hinging on Bitshares' success) so I'm not sure if I want to explain it publicly without taking a stab at being the "first mover" on the said business plan.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2016, 07:32:19 pm by CoinHoarder »
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Offline puppies

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So to answer your question: no, there is no way to create a new account and skip the referral fee.
The referral program would not make sense, if there was a way to avoid paying the referral fee.

So, I need to pay to ccedk (or fav or whoever) at least $80 just because I was signed up by them? Thanks a lot, I am going to skip this. And good luck with such a "smart" marketing.

I get your point @yvv .
I agree with you that, there should be an alternative option: a non-profit faucet run by the official BitShares website.
This way you could get LTM without paying anything to a third-party, you'd just pay 4k BTS straight to the network.
(I assume 4k is the current network fee for upgrading to LTM)

I think creating such a non-profit faucet is worth a worker proposal. I would support that.

I'd like to make myself clear, I am not against referral program. I participate in a bunch of them all the time. For example, if I refer a new tenant to my apartment leasing company, I get $300 from them. This is one time payment, which is about 20% of monthly rental fee. A new tenant is not forced to pay 80% of my rent, he pays just his regular monthly fee to the company. And of course he could go straight to the office, and make a deal with them directly. This is how referral program should work imo.
'
Are you saying new users should just do a one time - but higher - payment to whoever refers them?

This is not what happens in the example which I described. In my example, a new user, whom I refer, pays regular fee to the company. And the company decides how much they want to reward me for bringing in new user. In my case, they cut my rent by 20% for one month. This is a pretty good motivation to advertise this company.

You do understand that you are paying higher rent than you would if your company did not have this referral program right?  Just because they don't state this doesn't make it untrue.  The money has to come from somewhere.  I am shocked that you are not angry that you are being overcharged by your landlord, and kept in rent slavery that you can only get out of by referring new renters.
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Offline yvv

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So to answer your question: no, there is no way to create a new account and skip the referral fee.
The referral program would not make sense, if there was a way to avoid paying the referral fee.

So, I need to pay to ccedk (or fav or whoever) at least $80 just because I was signed up by them? Thanks a lot, I am going to skip this. And good luck with such a "smart" marketing.

I get your point @yvv .
I agree with you that, there should be an alternative option: a non-profit faucet run by the official BitShares website.
This way you could get LTM without paying anything to a third-party, you'd just pay 4k BTS straight to the network.
(I assume 4k is the current network fee for upgrading to LTM)

I think creating such a non-profit faucet is worth a worker proposal. I would support that.

I'd like to make myself clear, I am not against referral program. I participate in a bunch of them all the time. For example, if I refer a new tenant to my apartment leasing company, I get $300 from them. This is one time payment, which is about 20% of monthly rental fee. A new tenant is not forced to pay 80% of my rent, he pays just his regular monthly fee to the company. And of course he could go straight to the office, and make a deal with them directly. This is how referral program should work imo.
'
Are you saying new users should just do a one time - but higher - payment to whoever refers them?

This is not what happens in the example which I described. In my example, a new user, whom I refer, pays regular fee to the company. And the company decides how much they want to reward me for bringing in new user. In my case, they cut my rent by 20% for one month. This is a pretty good motivation to advertise this company.

Offline Akado

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So to answer your question: no, there is no way to create a new account and skip the referral fee.
The referral program would not make sense, if there was a way to avoid paying the referral fee.

So, I need to pay to ccedk (or fav or whoever) at least $80 just because I was signed up by them? Thanks a lot, I am going to skip this. And good luck with such a "smart" marketing.

I get your point @yvv .
I agree with you that, there should be an alternative option: a non-profit faucet run by the official BitShares website.
This way you could get LTM without paying anything to a third-party, you'd just pay 4k BTS straight to the network.
(I assume 4k is the current network fee for upgrading to LTM)

I think creating such a non-profit faucet is worth a worker proposal. I would support that.

I'd like to make myself clear, I am not against referral program. I participate in a bunch of them all the time. For example, if I refer a new tenant to my apartment leasing company, I get $300 from them. This is one time payment, which is about 20% of monthly rental fee. A new tenant is not forced to pay 80% of my rent, he pays just his regular monthly fee to the company. And of course he could go straight to the office, and make a deal with them directly. This is how referral program should work imo.
'
Are you saying new users should just do a one time - but higher - payment to whoever refers them?
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Offline yvv

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So to answer your question: no, there is no way to create a new account and skip the referral fee.
The referral program would not make sense, if there was a way to avoid paying the referral fee.

So, I need to pay to ccedk (or fav or whoever) at least $80 just because I was signed up by them? Thanks a lot, I am going to skip this. And good luck with such a "smart" marketing.

I get your point @yvv .
I agree with you that, there should be an alternative option: a non-profit faucet run by the official BitShares website.
This way you could get LTM without paying anything to a third-party, you'd just pay 4k BTS straight to the network.
(I assume 4k is the current network fee for upgrading to LTM)

I think creating such a non-profit faucet is worth a worker proposal. I would support that.

I'd like to make myself clear, I am not against referral program. I participate in a bunch of them all the time. For example, if I refer a new tenant to my apartment leasing company, I get $300 from them. This is one time payment, which is about 20% of monthly rental fee. A new tenant is not forced to pay 80% of my rent, he pays just his regular monthly fee to the company. And of course he could go straight to the office, and make a deal with them directly. This is how referral program should work imo.


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@bitcrab , if you say the referral program is nothing but "a trouble maker" in countries like China, maybe this is a simple solution:

Create a special faucet in China that registers new users and offers them LTM for free (or almost for free to cover the network LTM fee).
This faucet will be a non-profit entity (or will have to be subsidized a little bit by businesses like yours) but in my eyes it makes perfect sense, if you say you are able to make profit elsewhere, i.e. outside the referral program.
The only drawback is that Chinese customers will have to be aware of the vesting aspect (i.e. they pay higher fee today but 80% of it gets refunded in the future).

It's so simple that I'm sure you must have thought about it already.
But what are the reasons (apart from vesting) that prevent you from solving the problem this way?

I do not get you.
now one LTM cost 20K BTS, how can a faucet offer free LTM? even I can make a little profit, I cannot offer free LTM.
and if there is a faucet that offer free LTM, new users all around the world will come to sign up, how will openledger attract users?
Some misunderstandings here..
I think what Jakub proposed about "free LTM" is: if you refer someone, when she upgrade to LTM (for example the cost for her is 20K BTS), you will get 16K BTS but it will vest after 90 days, so you CAN return that 16K BTS to her after 90 days. That's all. I think Jakub didn't mean that you should give the user 20K BTS to upgrade to LTM.
That's indeed what I meant.
Moreover, I think you can return 16k BTS to the user immediately after s/he upgrades, as you'll be sure to be compensated in 90 days by the vesting process.
This way you loan 16k to the customer but this loan is absolutely safe.
It all makes sense if you have other ways to make profit on this customer.

Offline abit

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I have no income, zero.
 
The mobile wallets will bring us referral income. This income is sorely needed to get the wallet past v1.0 and keep it bug free, constantly improving and ad-free. I have a family of four and my wife works 3 jobs, she is NOT happy that I have had no income for over a year. I have put my life blood, sweat and tears into this business and to have the only thing I have going yanked out from under me once again, well, I have to say this is it. Nuff said. Please enable micro-payments with near zero fees all the way up to large POS payments such as a Ferarri (charge a much higher fee of course) on a dynamic scale, but I would definitely cap it and use the Smartcoins as the % basis instead of the volatile BTS. @abit @jakub @xeroc @fav @BunkerChain Labs @chryspano and many others here know how important the network effect is, we need dynamic fees.
 
The Smartcoins POS for Odoo can bring us ALL an income. Dynamic fees are required here as well. Everything from 5 cent gumballs all the way up to houses and yachts and beyond.
 
Flat models don't scale, nature itself is dynamic, mimic nature and THRIVE.
So can you please describe your business model more clearly? For example how lowering transfer fees would affect you and etc..
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Offline lil_jay890

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[
There's no evidence that high fees accelerate Bitshares adoption too
[/quote]

Which is why changing the rules now will crush all the business's that are just getting ready to launch with the current form of BTS...

There may be no difference in adoption rates between lower or higher fee's,  but adoption will continue to be retarded when there are constant parameter and rule changes.

Offline BunkerChainLabs-DataSecurityNode

maybe you missunderstand my point
I'm not against referral, or fees for upgrade account
I'm against high transfer fees

I have no interesting for the faucets
normal account should have low transfer fees also
even the same transfer fees with VIP account
I agree with you!
Please go through the fee schedule proposal I have sent out (internally for now) to the committee members via telegram
I'm not a committee member, so I don't have access to this "fee schedule proposal".

If transfer fees are removed from the  LTM "deal", we lose an important aspect of it: an incentive for online merchants to act as referrers and actively promote switching over to BitShares as a payment system.
Don't we want to have online merchants on our side?

I don't think I can support this new fee schedule proposal, if transfer fees are the same there, no matter if you are LTM or not.
we should add more aditional feature for LTM,
such as can add a field for json info, lined to  photo,  webpage,  social account,
can add a wall for LTM, others can wirte public message for LTM,
can use chat room on chain....
Trollbox for LTM!

Wouldn't be a trollbox anymore.. it would be VIPbox. ;)

I think new FBA type features introduced would be up to the makers if they wish to make them LTM or not. There maybe some business models that would really like that.
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Offline clayop

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There is little real evidence to show high fees are slowing bitshares adoption.  On the other hand there is vast empirical evidence that shows rule and parameter changes are cutting bts off at the knees.

This. Which makes it compltely illogical to change atm, imo. This is the most rational option so why come up with stuff that will destabilize the network? I just don't get it.

Atm the status of the network is A
Someone wants B because they don't agree with A
There is no evidence A is harmful
There is evidence that changing the status of the network (ie, B) is harmful.

What's even there left to discuss?
There's no evidence that high fees accelerate Bitshares adoption too
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Offline clayop

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maybe you missunderstand my point
I'm not against referral, or fees for upgrade account
I'm against high transfer fees

I have no interesting for the faucets
normal account should have low transfer fees also
even the same transfer fees with VIP account
I agree with you!
Please go through the fee schedule proposal I have sent out (internally for now) to the committee members via telegram
I'm not a committee member, so I don't have access to this "fee schedule proposal".

If transfer fees are removed from the  LTM "deal", we lose an important aspect of it: an incentive for online merchants to act as referrers and actively promote switching over to BitShares as a payment system.
Don't we want to have online merchants on our side?

I don't think I can support this new fee schedule proposal, if transfer fees are the same there, no matter if you are LTM or not.
we should add more aditional feature for LTM,
such as can add a field for json info, lined to  photo,  webpage,  social account,
can add a wall for LTM, others can wirte public message for LTM,
can use chat room on chain....
Trollbox for LTM!
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Vote for me and see Korean Bitshares community grows
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Offline abit

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@bitcrab , if you say the referral program is nothing but "a trouble maker" in countries like China, maybe this is a simple solution:

Create a special faucet in China that registers new users and offers them LTM for free (or almost for free to cover the network LTM fee).
This faucet will be a non-profit entity (or will have to be subsidized a little bit by businesses like yours) but in my eyes it makes perfect sense, if you say you are able to make profit elsewhere, i.e. outside the referral program.
The only drawback is that Chinese customers will have to be aware of the vesting aspect (i.e. they pay higher fee today but 80% of it gets refunded in the future).

It's so simple that I'm sure you must have thought about it already.
But what are the reasons (apart from vesting) that prevent you from solving the problem this way?

I do not get you.
now one LTM cost 20K BTS, how can a faucet offer free LTM? even I can make a little profit, I cannot offer free LTM.
and if there is a faucet that offer free LTM, new users all around the world will come to sign up, how will openledger attract users?
Some misunderstandings here..
I think what Jakub proposed about "free LTM" is: if you refer someone, when she upgrade to LTM (for example the cost for her is 20K BTS), you will get 16K BTS but it will vest after 90 days, so you CAN return that 16K BTS to her after 90 days. That's all. I think Jakub didn't mean that you should give the user 20K BTS to upgrade to LTM.
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