Author Topic: too many bts in centralized exchanges. Danger!  (Read 6306 times)

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Offline lil_jay890

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Re: too many bts in centralized exchanges. Danger!
« Reply #15 on: March 10, 2016, 01:56:45 am »
I've day traded for 10 years and I would never trade on our Dex in its current form.  It doesn't have the most basic tools that traders need.

You have to shout out loud, which exactly tools you need as a trader. We all should listen.

I've been shouting for a while... here's a post from a few weeks ago...

The biggest thing is shorting.  It's crazy confusing and sets up as a terrible risk reward scenario.  Maybe a script can be used to simplify what is actually going on, but I could talk to 10 traders about shorting on the DEX and all 10 would say its complex and nerve racking.

For a while now people have been trying to figure out why there is so little trading volume on the DEX.  I've traded forex and stocks for over 10 years and have written dozens of trading bots (Expert Advisors) in the mql language.  I've turned $2,500 into $50,000 in 6 months.  I've also turned $50,000 into $20,000 in 6 months as well. I think I have a pretty good idea of what traders need and expect from a platform.

1. Shorting in the DEX is cumbersome and confusing
I recently tried to short using the DEX.  I borrowed CNY and then sold that CNY for BTS.  I ended up getting margin called as BTS fell in price.  I'm ok with being wrong about a position, but I'm very confused with the mechanics of how this happened.  I also had no idea what my position was worth throughout the trade, and I'm not even entirely sure how much I lost.  Shorting needs to be streamlined and simplified.  The borrow/sell thing is too many steps and not knowing the positions value during the trade is borderline scary.

2.Is there a way to put a stop loss or take profit order?
Because right now I can't figure out how to do it.  This means there is no money management ability.  Without the ability to manage a trade, the DEX is unusable for serious traders.  There needs to be at a minim stop loss orders.  There really should be a way to put trailing stops in as well.

3.Indicators are shaky at best
Right now there are 4 indicators and 2 of them are moving averages.  The RSI doesn't appear to be working as the only reading I see on the more liquid markets are 100, 50, or 0.  It looks like an EKG witch tells me something isn't working correctly.  Not all traders use indicators, but many do.

These are just basic GUI things that are preventing traders from using the DEX.  It doesn't even include the inability to use leverage.  Just fixing the 3 things above will bring much more utility and liquidity to the dex.  I will guarantee it.  The people that originally designed the DEX were not traders.  They thought poloniex was a good interface to base their platform on.  Unfortunately, poloniex is not a good platform.  A professional trader would never use Poloniex.  Poloniex's platform is modeled off some cheap retail trading platform.

How do we fix this??
Right now we are consumed by petty fee debates and if we should keep calling ourselves DPOS.  These things are not that important right now.  It's not what will drive mainstream traders to the BTS platform.  What is needed is A PLUGIN FOR METATRADER 4.  While it isn't the most sophisticated trading platform, it's the most widely used and known.  It's also light years ahead of the current DEX.  What I propose is that instead of [member=11]dannotestein[/member] and blocktrades using a worker proposal to fix basic blockchain bugs, rather is work on creating a plugin for MT4.  They are already an exchange and have a good understanding of BTS.  I know it's not as easy as fixing "bad coding techniques", but getting this plugin for BTS would do more to improve the market cap and utility than anything else.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2016, 02:01:35 am by lil_jay890 »

Offline Methodise

Re: too many bts in centralized exchanges. Danger!
« Reply #16 on: March 10, 2016, 02:52:14 am »
Counterparty risk reduction is an incentive towards keeping bitshares off exchange. NXT was disappeared in large quantities from an (bter?) exchange hack, despite its lotto.

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Offline yvv

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Re: too many bts in centralized exchanges. Danger!
« Reply #17 on: March 10, 2016, 03:00:39 am »
I've day traded for 10 years and I would never trade on our Dex in its current form.  It doesn't have the most basic tools that traders need.

You have to shout out loud, which exactly tools you need as a trader. We all should listen.

I've been shouting for a while... here's a post from a few weeks ago...

The biggest thing is shorting.  It's crazy confusing and sets up as a terrible risk reward scenario.  Maybe a script can be used to simplify what is actually going on, but I could talk to 10 traders about shorting on the DEX and all 10 would say its complex and nerve racking.

For a while now people have been trying to figure out why there is so little trading volume on the DEX.  I've traded forex and stocks for over 10 years and have written dozens of trading bots (Expert Advisors) in the mql language.  I've turned $2,500 into $50,000 in 6 months.  I've also turned $50,000 into $20,000 in 6 months as well. I think I have a pretty good idea of what traders need and expect from a platform.

1. Shorting in the DEX is cumbersome and confusing
I recently tried to short using the DEX.  I borrowed CNY and then sold that CNY for BTS.  I ended up getting margin called as BTS fell in price.  I'm ok with being wrong about a position, but I'm very confused with the mechanics of how this happened.  I also had no idea what my position was worth throughout the trade, and I'm not even entirely sure how much I lost.  Shorting needs to be streamlined and simplified.  The borrow/sell thing is too many steps and not knowing the positions value during the trade is borderline scary.

2.Is there a way to put a stop loss or take profit order?
Because right now I can't figure out how to do it.  This means there is no money management ability.  Without the ability to manage a trade, the DEX is unusable for serious traders.  There needs to be at a minim stop loss orders.  There really should be a way to put trailing stops in as well.

3.Indicators are shaky at best
Right now there are 4 indicators and 2 of them are moving averages.  The RSI doesn't appear to be working as the only reading I see on the more liquid markets are 100, 50, or 0.  It looks like an EKG witch tells me something isn't working correctly.  Not all traders use indicators, but many do.

These are just basic GUI things that are preventing traders from using the DEX.  It doesn't even include the inability to use leverage.  Just fixing the 3 things above will bring much more utility and liquidity to the dex.  I will guarantee it.  The people that originally designed the DEX were not traders.  They thought poloniex was a good interface to base their platform on.  Unfortunately, poloniex is not a good platform.  A professional trader would never use Poloniex.  Poloniex's platform is modeled off some cheap retail trading platform.

How do we fix this??
Right now we are consumed by petty fee debates and if we should keep calling ourselves DPOS.  These things are not that important right now.  It's not what will drive mainstream traders to the BTS platform.  What is needed is A PLUGIN FOR METATRADER 4.  While it isn't the most sophisticated trading platform, it's the most widely used and known.  It's also light years ahead of the current DEX.  What I propose is that instead of [member=11]dannotestein[/member] and blocktrades using a worker proposal to fix basic blockchain bugs, rather is work on creating a plugin for MT4.  They are already an exchange and have a good understanding of BTS.  I know it's not as easy as fixing "bad coding techniques", but getting this plugin for BTS would do more to improve the market cap and utility than anything else.

Well, some of this points are definitely valid. The problem is that DEX is different kind of trading than forex or stock exchange. But, opinion of forex and stock traders should never be ignored. Only symbiosis of trader experience and tech experience is the way to success. Right now bitshares has smartest IT experts, but lacks expertise from financial side. This is imo, of course.

Offline mf-tzo

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Re: too many bts in centralized exchanges. Danger!
« Reply #18 on: March 10, 2016, 08:02:36 am »
Some responses in this thread amaze me and I understand now after 2 years why bts has this market cap still..I am really curious how many bail ins, or hacks of centralized exchanges need to happen for people to realize the importance of our DEX..I hope that after a couple of more "accidents" in the future people will eventually learn..

I don't think our DEX is not user friendly as it is. I think it is quite easy to use and this is coming from a person whose IT skills are like a 10 year's old..but anyway..

Offline Buck Fankers

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Re: too many bts in centralized exchanges. Danger!
« Reply #19 on: March 10, 2016, 08:42:49 am »
I don't think our DEX is not user friendly as it is. I think it is quite easy to use and this is coming from a person whose IT skills are like a 10 year's old..but anyway..

Unfortunately I disagree. I used it for the first time in a while recently and it was displeasing to put it nicely. The # of xxx.BTC's was confusing as hell. I thought the OPEN.ETH/BTC market was with OPEN.BTC and the OPEN was just left off for some reason. So I got screwed over swapping METAEX.BTC to OPEN.BTC only to find out there was another one that's just BTC (not to mention another one called OPENBTC with no period) and it can only be purchased on the DEX with BTS at an outrageously high price. Trying to sell was frustrating as well, but I won't get into that as I'm sure with more experience using it will solve the issues I experienced. But I'm not a first time user of the DEX and frankly I probably won't be using it again or at least it will not be my first, second or third choice. It was just a bad experience all around, I hate to say it, but frankly I'm really disappointed and think it needs to be said, no offense, just keeping it real. I like to get in/out, not have to investigate where a certain asset pair is, hunt it down, hope I have the right ones, find out I don't and lose money in the process. It needs some serious work and a facelift big time. I was really expecting a lot better experience and left feeling like I got scammed by misleading pairs. I was only dealing with small change here because there's no way I'd put any real amount of money on there out of fear I'd get screwed again making a mistake with xxx.BTC or thinking an order went through only to find out later it didn't. Sorry to be a "Negative Nancy". I know saying anything other than "great job!" does not go over well here. =/

Offline D4vegee

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Re: too many bts in centralized exchanges. Danger!
« Reply #20 on: March 10, 2016, 09:04:06 am »

I don't think our DEX is not user friendly as it is. I think it is quite easy to use and this is coming from a person whose IT skills are like a 10 year's old..but anyway..

Unfortunately I disagree. I used it for the first time in a while recently and it was displeasing to put it nicely. The # of xxx.BTC's was confusing as hell. I thought the OPEN.ETH/BTC market was with OPEN.BTC and the OPEN was just left off for some reason. So I got screwed over swapping METAEX.BTC to OPEN.BTC only to find out there was another one that's just BTC (not to mention another one called OPENBTC with no period) and it can only be purchased on the DEX with BTS at an outrageously high price. Trying to sell was frustrating as well, but I won't get into that as I'm sure with more experience using it will solve the issues I experienced. But I'm not a first time user of the DEX and frankly I probably won't be using it again or at least it will not be my first, second or third choice. It was just a bad experience all around, I hate to say it, but frankly I'm really disappointed and think it needs to be said, no offense, just keeping it real. I like to get in/out, not have to investigate where a certain asset pair is, hunt it down, hope I have the right ones, find out I don't and lose money in the process. It needs some serious work and a facelift big time. I was really expecting a lot better experience and left feeling like I got scammed by misleading pairs. I was only dealing with small change here because there's no way I'd put any real amount of money on there out of fear I'd get screwed again making a mistake with xxx.BTC or thinking an order went through only to find out later it didn't. Sorry to be a "Negative Nancy". I know saying anything other than "great job!" does not go over well here. =/

+5. Couldn't agree more. It needs LOTS of work for average Joe.

Offline abit

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Re: too many bts in centralized exchanges. Danger!
« Reply #21 on: March 10, 2016, 10:42:42 am »
I've day traded for 10 years and I would never trade on our Dex in its current form.  It doesn't have the most basic tools that traders need.

You have to shout out loud, which exactly tools you need as a trader. We all should listen.
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Offline Akado

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Re: too many bts in centralized exchanges. Danger!
« Reply #22 on: March 10, 2016, 11:13:57 am »
I've day traded for 10 years and I would never trade on our Dex in its current form.  It doesn't have the most basic tools that traders need.

You have to shout out loud, which exactly tools you need as a trader. We all should listen.
MT4, mentioned times.

Does a MT4 plugin require the same licence stuff as MT4 integration? I was under the impression a plugin would be more simple and cheaper. Am I wrong? When people say "integration" and "plugin" they're mentioning the same thing? I got confused.
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Offline xh3

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Re: too many bts in centralized exchanges. Danger!
« Reply #23 on: March 10, 2016, 02:24:24 pm »
I love to trade, and I would have to agree with @ll_jay890.  It's not a serious choice because serious trading needs a few things that the DEX  and GUI lack.

 It needs order management, it needs to be quantifiable in terms of risk,
 it needs a great API,
and it needs the capability to place leveraged trades. 

The reality is that the fact that D in DEX doesn't sell itself, it needs to just be the best exchange, providing a superior way to trade.  The reality is that traders right now want to trade on Poloniex for exactly those reasons, regardless of how Poloniex has been implemented.

The thing that's frustrating to watch is that what DEX offers is extremely desirable to traders, safety.  If trade could be leveraged from one's own security, it would lead to a much deeper reflection of the tokens traded and a consistent, healthy  threat of major price action.



The problem with taking your money off the exchange and trading on the Dex, is the possibility of losing money due to the complicated nature of placing trades. This is especially relevant for shorting.

//Right now the odds of losing all your money on a centralized exchange due to hacking  is far lower than losing a big chunk on the Dex due to //complexity,   user errors, and bugs.  Also there is no chance of fund recovery on the Dex if a bug causes you to lose money.

The longer that polo and all the other CExs stay secured, the better their practices will get and the less useful our Dex becomes.

I've day traded for 10 years and I would never trade on our Dex in its current form.  It doesn't have the most basic tools that traders need.
Please consider withdrawing your bts from external exchanges if you do not intend to sell them.. More than 30% of BTS are in the top two exchanges. This is very dangerous and if something goes wrong with any of these exchanges you can kiss goodbye your bts investment forever.

If you do not sell your bts, why not just held them in your wallet and be the king to your castle?


Offline konelectric

Re: too many bts in centralized exchanges. Danger!
« Reply #24 on: March 11, 2016, 12:31:39 am »
I think the biggest threat to centralized exchanges is yet to come. As governments go broke, they might seize half of everyone's assets.
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Offline Ander

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Re: too many bts in centralized exchanges. Danger!
« Reply #25 on: March 11, 2016, 12:34:17 am »
I don't think our DEX is not user friendly as it is. I think it is quite easy to use and this is coming from a person whose IT skills are like a 10 year's old..but anyway..

Unfortunately I disagree. I used it for the first time in a while recently and it was displeasing to put it nicely. The # of xxx.BTC's was confusing as hell. I thought the OPEN.ETH/BTC market was with OPEN.BTC and the OPEN was just left off for some reason. So I got screwed over swapping METAEX.BTC to OPEN.BTC only to find out there was another one that's just BTC (not to mention another one called OPENBTC with no period) and it can only be purchased on the DEX with BTS at an outrageously high price. Trying to sell was frustrating as well, but I won't get into that as I'm sure with more experience using it will solve the issues I experienced. But I'm not a first time user of the DEX and frankly I probably won't be using it again or at least it will not be my first, second or third choice. It was just a bad experience all around, I hate to say it, but frankly I'm really disappointed and think it needs to be said, no offense, just keeping it real. I like to get in/out, not have to investigate where a certain asset pair is, hunt it down, hope I have the right ones, find out I don't and lose money in the process. It needs some serious work and a facelift big time. I was really expecting a lot better experience and left feeling like I got scammed by misleading pairs. I was only dealing with small change here because there's no way I'd put any real amount of money on there out of fear I'd get screwed again making a mistake with xxx.BTC or thinking an order went through only to find out later it didn't. Sorry to be a "Negative Nancy". I know saying anything other than "great job!" does not go over well here. =/


Yep.  The DEX needs to make itself look exactly like Poloniex.  Imitate whats working or die.
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Offline lil_jay890

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Re: too many bts in centralized exchanges. Danger!
« Reply #26 on: March 11, 2016, 04:36:20 am »
I don't think our DEX is not user friendly as it is. I think it is quite easy to use and this is coming from a person whose IT skills are like a 10 year's old..but anyway..

Unfortunately I disagree. I used it for the first time in a while recently and it was displeasing to put it nicely. The # of xxx.BTC's was confusing as hell. I thought the OPEN.ETH/BTC market was with OPEN.BTC and the OPEN was just left off for some reason. So I got screwed over swapping METAEX.BTC to OPEN.BTC only to find out there was another one that's just BTC (not to mention another one called OPENBTC with no period) and it can only be purchased on the DEX with BTS at an outrageously high price. Trying to sell was frustrating as well, but I won't get into that as I'm sure with more experience using it will solve the issues I experienced. But I'm not a first time user of the DEX and frankly I probably won't be using it again or at least it will not be my first, second or third choice. It was just a bad experience all around, I hate to say it, but frankly I'm really disappointed and think it needs to be said, no offense, just keeping it real. I like to get in/out, not have to investigate where a certain asset pair is, hunt it down, hope I have the right ones, find out I don't and lose money in the process. It needs some serious work and a facelift big time. I was really expecting a lot better experience and left feeling like I got scammed by misleading pairs. I was only dealing with small change here because there's no way I'd put any real amount of money on there out of fear I'd get screwed again making a mistake with xxx.BTC or thinking an order went through only to find out later it didn't. Sorry to be a "Negative Nancy". I know saying anything other than "great job!" does not go over well here. =/


Yep.  The DEX needs to make itself look exactly like Poloniex.  Imitate whats working or die.

The Poloniex DEX is nothing special... it's actually very limited.  Pro traders would think you are joking if you told them that was the interface you were trading on and expected them to trade on.  It just happens to be a popular site with a very small niche group of extremely novice retail traders...

Settling for that basic interface would be a big mistake imo...  Just because there is a troll box doesn't make it a good platform.

Real platforms have interactive charts, script editors, more than 4 indicators and so much more.... Polo has none of that.

Offline Akado

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Re: too many bts in centralized exchanges. Danger!
« Reply #27 on: March 11, 2016, 09:26:05 am »
[member=23744]lil_jay890[/member] I think you should expose that on today's mumble to get more attention. people cant ignore someone with experience
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Offline yvv

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Re: too many bts in centralized exchanges. Danger!
« Reply #28 on: March 11, 2016, 05:57:59 pm »

Real platforms have interactive charts, script editors, more than 4 indicators and so much more.... Polo has none of that.

All this stuff does not appear from the air. It takes full time labour of dozens or even hundreds of developers to create a professional trading platform. This is not feasible for a small open source project.

Offline xh3

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Re: too many bts in centralized exchanges. Danger!
« Reply #29 on: March 11, 2016, 06:04:32 pm »
This opens up into a larger discussion on how to make the DEX attractive to traders.
       
        Who are these traders and what are their values?
               Who are serious traders?
                    What types of serous traders are there?
                          What is the thing they all want?
        What is really necessary to become the best game in town?
               What is the best game in town?
                   What is the best game in all of trading?
                      What is the best game in crypto-trading?
                          What do they all have in Common?
How to Implement what traders want?
     How to delegate roles?
         Is there anything in the protocol itself that can be modified to make trading more attractive?
             Can the protocol interface with other widely used trading tools?
         What sorts of extensions could be written to extend functionality to less technically savvy traders?
             What type of Apps, services, and businesses would need to be in place to stimulate trade?
                    How to stimulate such development.

------------

"Serious" traders do not generally trade in the crypto because it does not meet their criteria for safety.  I suspect that the development that they are waiting on is legal.  All other risks can be quantified, but the liabilities involved in trading crypto are not well defined, and the methodology for safely doing so has not been exposed .

The types of traders in crypto tend to have a reckless gambler's edge, but they too are proving the thing that they want.
Traders want everything to be solid up to the point where they're deciding whether to buy, sell, or hold.  Traders want to be free to just trade, because the mental bandwidth required to trade well doesn't leave room for other concerns.

The best trading platforms take this into account, and deliver the capabilities to traders that they need in order to just trade.  Think of trading Nasdaq on Tradestation.... what's on your mind besides just making good trades?
The best platforms in crypto do not even approximate that experience really.  Personally I feel mostly fine on Bitfinex, but when trading Polo I feel like there's something nasty around the corner, the whole thing seems glitchy, and I have a hard time getting the information I use to trade with. However, I still trade there because it provides a number of liquid volatile markets that I can trade at with leverage.... which is worth quite a bit to a trader.
Traders are just opportunists really, if you create opportunity, they will show up to harness it.

All that being said, I think we can all agree that the first and primary business of crypto-currency is the speculation on it's own value, and that success in the space right now involves granting people the ability to exchange things.

I'm fuzzy on the current implementation details of the bitshares protocol, but it does provide basic market services.

       I do wish it provided the capability for an issuer to buy all possible asset names starting with a numeric prefix eg.
       I buy all possible asset names beginning with 854-896-5547..... etc.
       this would allow me to issue assets and everybody knows that if it's in my               prefix, it's mine.  I can later use this in my app to organize
       my markets and alias my assets in the UI.

The development I would like to see as a shareholder is in apps, businesses, gateways, partnerships, etc.
Let the protocol provide basic clearing services and capabilities.  Let third party developers grind out some apps to leverage it.
Interfacing with MT4 would be a great thing, but if that's not possible, some sort of clone of it would be useful too.

In general anything that can be done to make it easier for traders to just trade, and for there to be ample opportunity when they do, will be for the better of the DEX.