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Online bitcrab

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review the drastic fall
« on: August 09, 2018, 09:46:39 am »
check below graphs, it's the price chart of BTC/USDT and BTS/BTC and BTS/bitCNY at the same time period in yesterday.







what we can see is, BTS price drastically fell down in 2 hours,  from 0.000023 to 0.0000205BTC, or from 1.05 to 0.85bitCNY. 

comparatively, BTC fell down more  slowly, it cost BTC about 24 hours to fell from about 7100 to 6310 USD.

some factor play the key role to trigger the drastic fall, it is the big debt position.

after the 719 hard fork, target CR feature is enabled, however, unfortunately, GUI does not support this new feature until after the drastic fall.

some big debt position, including mine, are margin called at the begining of the fall, and quickly lead to drastic fall.

if the big debt position could have set target CR, things would be much better, as we can see, in other time, the BTS price change slowly.

so is the cowork of OMO+ spring fund to support the price make sense?  yes, even now I think it make sense, but the problem is that we under evaluate the impact of big debt positions without target CR setting...

 






« Last Edit: August 09, 2018, 10:07:02 am by bitcrab »

Offline Thul3

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Re: review the drastic fall
« Reply #1 on: August 09, 2018, 10:11:35 am »
The big fall was caused by your stupid 5 million buy wall between 1.08 CNY and 1.03 CNY .
Price wouldn't have fallen so quick but constantly when you wouldn't have put your stupid buy wall creating a fake price.
External exchanges had lower prices for BTS already but it was artificially held up by your unnatural buy walls which everyone with a brain could see.
People didn't sold their BTS for under 1.084 because of that and Bitshares CMC ranking moved from 29 to 24 without any real reason beside your buy wall.So people knew exectly BTS is overpriced.
And what happens when your stupid buy wall gets eaten is that the price went instantly to its normal price range it and CMC rank went back to 29 .

So instead posting bullshit you can just say the heavy quickly drop was caused by your stupid buywall which was never approved or talked anywhere but just decided by your own person near your own margin.

The worst part even when the first buy walls were eaten you kept creating new margin for BitUSD which had already a Ratio of 2 to add keep holding the buy wall and pushed the margin down to 1.96.

Thats a irresponsible behavior and an abuse of the trust you manage on these account.You had no rights to go so low with the Ratio.Its again just your personal decission which wasn't talked or approved with anyone.

You act like you got a freepass for everything on Bitshares .You should be instantly removed from the OMO since you are clearly not able to hold a clear mind when your own assets are in danger


If you want you can call your buy wall a pump and dump......
but instead buying up you try to hold the price in a bear market.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2018, 10:14:13 am by Thul3 »

Online bitcrab

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Re: review the drastic fall
« Reply #2 on: August 09, 2018, 10:33:13 am »
if you really like to shout like a crazy dog, up to you, I don't care.

I care what is the real cause of the fall.

I don't think the buy wall is the key cause of the fall, if the price in DEX is obvious higher than external exchange, traders can arbitrage to make them close.


Offline Thul3

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Re: review the drastic fall
« Reply #3 on: August 09, 2018, 10:36:08 am »
Quote
traders can arbitrage to make them close.

Yes exectly and this was causing the holding of that fake price up for 2 days were everything else moved down.

CMC went up from 29 to 24 and once the buy wall got eaten up (even for quick profit by some traders)
the price dumped where it should be if there would be no buy wall before ......back to CMC rank 29


You clearly don't understand the issue.Just puting the buy wall up wont help at all.Maybe for a short time but without buyers willing to buy at that price you won't be able to hold at that price and there was noone willing to buy at that price cause you created an unhealthy manipulated price
« Last Edit: August 09, 2018, 10:49:35 am by Thul3 »

Online bitcrab

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Re: review the drastic fall
« Reply #4 on: August 09, 2018, 10:48:11 am »
you cannot say the price 1.08 is faked but 0.85 is a true price. every price is the result of the activities in markets.

if there is no OMO, maybe the price has fallen to under 0.6.




Offline binggo

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Re: review the drastic fall
« Reply #5 on: August 09, 2018, 10:48:37 am »
I think the feed price(from the Centralized exchange)need to take on some responsibility.

The neck of the Decentralized exchange was grabbed by the Centralized exchange.

Offline Thul3

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Re: review the drastic fall
« Reply #6 on: August 09, 2018, 10:55:22 am »
you cannot say the price 1.08 is faked but 0.85 is a true price. every price is the result of the activities in markets.

if there is no OMO, maybe the price has fallen to under 0.6.

Of course i can't but i can assume based on experience that we would be based on CMC something between 30 and 28 and the price of 1.08 CNY causing that we were for a short time rank 24 caused a big down pressure since based on market conditions people were not willing to by BTS at that high price seeing it as overpriced.You could clearly see it on DEX that the price didn't moved higher than 1.105 when few people were buying near buy support in hope it may bounce from the wall
« Last Edit: August 09, 2018, 10:57:33 am by Thul3 »

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Re: review the drastic fall
« Reply #7 on: August 09, 2018, 10:56:16 am »
I think the feed price(from the Centralized exchange)need to take on some responsibility.

The neck of the Decentralized exchange was grabbed by the Centralized exchange.

agreed, so need some witness to feed based on the BTS/bitCNY price in DEX, adding the bitCNY deposit fee.

Offline Thul3

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Re: review the drastic fall
« Reply #8 on: August 09, 2018, 11:01:20 am »
I think the feed price(from the Centralized exchange)need to take on some responsibility.

The neck of the Decentralized exchange was grabbed by the Centralized exchange.

agreed, so need some witness to feed based on the BTS/bitCNY price in DEX, adding the bitCNY deposit fee.



LOL like i thought it is going to happen based on yesterdays first post here

Establishing the next price manipulation feature so even the feed price will be controlled from DEX

After seeing that post yesterday in chinese forum
https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=26909.0
i was 100% sure this request will come and that your thread is a part of that strategy to control price feed so you can't get margin called anymore.

LOL
Creating a centralised dictarorship


Arbitrage didn't worked for you since price feed keept going down so now you try to even manipulate/dictate the feedprice
« Last Edit: August 09, 2018, 11:12:30 am by Thul3 »

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Re: review the drastic fall
« Reply #9 on: August 09, 2018, 11:01:25 am »
you cannot say the price 1.08 is faked but 0.85 is a true price. every price is the result of the activities in markets.

if there is no OMO, maybe the price has fallen to under 0.6.

Of course i can't but i can assume based on experience that we would be based on CMC something between 30 and 28 and the price of 1.08 CNY causing that we were for a short time rank 24 caused a big down pressure since based on market conditions people were not willing to by BTS at that high price seeing it as overpriced.You could clearly see it on DEX that the price didn't moved higher than 1.105 when few people were buying near buy support in hope it may bounce from the wall

why CMC rank 28-30 is more reasonable than 20-25? and don't forget the price is above 1.3 just a couple weeks ago. and one of the sub purpose of OMO is to make BTS to price independently with BTC.

Offline Thul3

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Re: review the drastic fall
« Reply #10 on: August 09, 2018, 11:02:10 am »
why its more reasonable you got your answer ....people didn't bought BTS at 1.08 at that market condition.
else we wouldn't be at 0.85
« Last Edit: August 09, 2018, 11:04:38 am by Thul3 »

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Re: review the drastic fall
« Reply #11 on: August 09, 2018, 11:08:47 am »
why its more reasonable you got your answer ....people didn't bought BTS at 1.08 at that market condition.
else we wouldn't be at 0.85

so now pepole don't buy at 0.9, so 0.9 is also overpriced?
and tomorrow maybe the price fall down to under 0.8, and 0.8 is also overpriced?

Offline Thul3

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Re: review the drastic fall
« Reply #12 on: August 09, 2018, 11:13:58 am »
don't act stupid or do you want to buy BTC today from me for $10k each which will be next year worth $20k ?

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Re: review the drastic fall
« Reply #13 on: August 09, 2018, 11:14:48 am »
I think the feed price(from the Centralized exchange)need to take on some responsibility.

The neck of the Decentralized exchange was grabbed by the Centralized exchange.

agreed, so need some witness to feed based on the BTS/bitCNY price in DEX, adding the bitCNY deposit fee.



LOL like i thought it is going to happen based on yesterdays first post here

Establishing the next price manipulation feature so even the feed price will be controlled from DEX

After seeing that post yesterday in chinese forum
https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=26909.0
i was 100% sure this request will come and that your thread is a part of that strategy to control price feed so you can't get margin called anymore.

LOL
Creating a centralised dictarorship


Arbitrage didn't worked for you since price feed keept going down so now you try to even manipulate/dictate the feedprice

what we want is just to avoid the price maunipulation from outside DEX.

Offline paliboy

Re: review the drastic fall
« Reply #14 on: August 09, 2018, 11:20:41 am »
some factor play the key role to trigger the drastic fall, it is the big debt position.

after the 719 hard fork, target CR feature is enabled, however, unfortunately, GUI does not support this new feature until after the drastic fall.

some big debt position, including mine, are margin called at the begining of the fall, and quickly lead to drastic fall.

if the big debt position could have set target CR, things would be much better, as we can see, in other time, the BTS price change slowly.

so is the cowork of OMO+ spring fund to support the price make sense?  yes, even now I think it make sense, but the problem is that we under evaluate the impact of big debt positions without target CR setting...

Assuming that target collateral ratio is implemented as designed and doesn't contain bugs, it should not influence the price in any way. It's just a nice feature for big debt positions so that they are partially protected.

E.g. there are two big positions called (2 mil bitUSD and 1 mil. bitUSD in this order). A buyer with 0.5 mil bitUSD places an order to buy BTS.

Before hard fork, buyer gets what he wants and two positons will be still called (1.5 mil bitUSD and 1 mil bitUSD in this order no matter what CR these two positions have - a bug).

After hard for, buyer gets what he wants and two positons will be still called (1.5 mil bitUSD and 1 mil bitUSD, order depends on new CRs that are counted immediately after order is filled).

Optionally, both debt position owners can set target collateral ratio which could effectively protect the first one but it has no effect on market price - this only depends on buyers and sellers.

Offline Thul3

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Re: review the drastic fall
« Reply #15 on: August 09, 2018, 11:21:39 am »
Quote
what we want is just to avoid the price maunipulation from outside DEX.

Which means dictating the price from DEX so a buy wall like before can't get crashed anymore even it had an unnatural price.

Its funny you blame the fall of the buy wall on BTC pair price manipulation but not on manipulation of BTS price on DEX

Offline paliboy

Re: review the drastic fall
« Reply #16 on: August 09, 2018, 11:21:46 am »
what we want is just to avoid the price maunipulation from outside DEX.

Who/how can manipulate the price from outside of DEX?

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Re: review the drastic fall
« Reply #17 on: August 09, 2018, 11:25:46 am »
what we want is just to avoid the price maunipulation from outside DEX.

Who/how can manipulate the price from outside of DEX?

sometimes traders can sell big in centralized exchange and then lower the feed price to make some debt position margin called and eat the margin called order.

long long ago, this happen a lot in poloniex but now seldom because now a lot big exchanges list BTS so it's not easy to manipulate the feed price.

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Re: review the drastic fall
« Reply #18 on: August 09, 2018, 11:37:20 am »
Quote
what we want is just to avoid the price maunipulation from outside DEX.

Which means dictating the price from DEX so a buy wall like before can't get crashed anymore even it had an unnatural price.

Its funny you blame the fall of the buy wall on BTC pair price manipulation but not on manipulation of BTS price on DEX

no doubt OMO need to long BTS, the problem is just how to do that with high efficiency and low risk. the buying wall has nothing to do with manipulation.

and in the future OMO definitely will continue to create "unnatural" price in front of you.

if all you just want is to enable yourself to short BTS more conveniently, sorry I have little to discuss with you.

 

Offline Thul3

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Re: review the drastic fall
« Reply #19 on: August 09, 2018, 11:52:26 am »
Quote
what we want is just to avoid the price maunipulation from outside DEX.

Which means dictating the price from DEX so a buy wall like before can't get crashed anymore even it had an unnatural price.

Its funny you blame the fall of the buy wall on BTC pair price manipulation but not on manipulation of BTS price on DEX

no doubt OMO need to long BTS, the problem is just how to do that with high efficiency and low risk. the buying wall has nothing to do with manipulation.

and in the future OMO definitely will continue to create "unnatural" price in front of you.

if all you just want is to enable yourself to short BTS more conveniently, sorry I have little to discuss with you.



First of all you should question yourself as commitee member.


You broke every single point in your WP and didn't even appologized for it.
You didn't asked the community for approval for changing it or even discussed about it.
Next you have no transperancy at all and its clear you are willing to take a way higher risk using RP funds than using
spring fund for which you are personal liable.
Next thing is your superciliousness may break your neck and the negativ effect you are going to create will harm the whole bitshares community.
If you don't understand economics than i may explain it to you in an easy way.There is no diffrence in your current action with the actions of central banks producing money out of air and manipulating prices.

Instead of putting your interrest of growing the members on DEX you put your interrest in BTS price ONLY.
I will also give you a free adive.If your margin is to high start selling a small portion.Thats what everyone is doing when they have to much margin and stop using community funds to protect your margin.
This way your margin won't get called and you don't need to blame market manipulation

The worst part is now you even try to dicate the price feed so you have full control over BTS price using these amount of funds so since you are clearly misusing the OMO funds ,lacking of any transparancy ,trying to even increase your control on DEX and being so arrogant i will take away my vote and will from now on make your actions public informing the public of your price manipulation and trying to dictate the BTS price till you resign from the OMO fund as you as a person shouldn't run at all such a community fund as you clearly have personal interest issues and an ego where everyone else would be long time kicked out as commitee.

I will repeat you broke every point of your WP and you have ZERO transparency ,fucked the margin Ratio and still i don't see a single word of appology or even a for the sake of the smallest change of transparency

Therefor i will activly advertise to get your out of the OMO fund as you are clearly breaking all trust and acting like a dick who have the right to do anything on DEX
« Last Edit: August 09, 2018, 11:59:06 am by Thul3 »

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Re: review the drastic fall
« Reply #20 on: August 09, 2018, 04:23:58 pm »
below are today's chart of BTC and BTS





it's clear that today BTS's falling down is not so related to BTC, BTC fell down slowly today, and the lowest price even do not touch yesterday's lowest price.

it's clear that the BTS's chart is somehow independent, clearly that some shorters find the chance and attack accuratelly.

it's a pity that now it's still so easy for shorters to attack BTS.

BTS need to evolve rapidly to discourage shorting, one price feeding relevangt suggestion is here https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=26914.0

« Last Edit: August 09, 2018, 04:26:05 pm by bitcrab »

Offline Thul3

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Re: review the drastic fall
« Reply #21 on: August 09, 2018, 05:45:09 pm »
Stop trying to control the price feed to dictate BTS price.

You are going way to far and proofing all you care was holding the price 1.08 CNY at all cost
« Last Edit: August 09, 2018, 05:51:34 pm by Thul3 »

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Re: review the drastic fall
« Reply #22 on: August 10, 2018, 05:33:46 am »
Stop trying to control the price feed to dictate BTS price.

You are going way to far and proofing all you care was holding the price 1.08 CNY at all cost

yes, if I can I will sell you to human trader and then buy BTS with the income.

Offline paliboy

Re: review the drastic fall
« Reply #23 on: August 10, 2018, 09:00:17 am »
what we want is just to avoid the price maunipulation from outside DEX.

Who/how can manipulate the price from outside of DEX?

sometimes traders can sell big in centralized exchange and then lower the feed price to make some debt position margin called and eat the margin called order.

long long ago, this happen a lot in poloniex but now seldom because now a lot big exchanges list BTS so it's not easy to manipulate the feed price.

OK, so you are trying to create a solution to the problem that doesn't exist/is small/is improbable.


it's clear that today BTS's falling down is not so related to BTC, BTC fell down slowly today, and the lowest price even do not touch yesterday's lowest price.

it's clear that the BTS's chart is somehow independent, clearly that some shorters find the chance and attack accuratelly.

it's a pity that now it's still so easy for shorters to attack BTS.

BTS need to evolve rapidly to discourage shorting, one price feeding relevangt suggestion is here https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=26914.0

"it's not easy to manipulate the feed price" vs "it's a pity that now it's still so easy for shorters to attack BTS"... I'm confused now, is it easy or not?

Online bitcrab

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Re: review the drastic fall
« Reply #24 on: August 10, 2018, 09:22:39 am »
what we want is just to avoid the price maunipulation from outside DEX.

Who/how can manipulate the price from outside of DEX?

sometimes traders can sell big in centralized exchange and then lower the feed price to make some debt position margin called and eat the margin called order.

long long ago, this happen a lot in poloniex but now seldom because now a lot big exchanges list BTS so it's not easy to manipulate the feed price.

OK, so you are trying to create a solution to the problem that doesn't exist/is small/is improbable.


it's clear that today BTS's falling down is not so related to BTC, BTC fell down slowly today, and the lowest price even do not touch yesterday's lowest price.

it's clear that the BTS's chart is somehow independent, clearly that some shorters find the chance and attack accuratelly.

it's a pity that now it's still so easy for shorters to attack BTS.

BTS need to evolve rapidly to discourage shorting, one price feeding relevangt suggestion is here https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=26914.0

"it's not easy to manipulate the feed price" vs "it's a pity that now it's still so easy for shorters to attack BTS"... I'm confused now, is it easy or not?

more than 1 year ago, when poloniex is almost the only one big CEX that list BTS, manipulation is very easy, now it is not so easy as before, but it is possible and not so difficult, we need to make it almost impossible.

Offline Thul3

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Re: review the drastic fall
« Reply #25 on: August 10, 2018, 09:37:28 am »
We don't need to protect your asset.Start selling your BTS to lower your CR and there will be no problem anymore instead of looking for conspiracy theory of attackers waiting to harm your Collateral

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Re: review the drastic fall
« Reply #26 on: August 10, 2018, 09:59:11 am »
We don't need to protect your asset.Start selling your BTS to lower your CR and there will be no problem anymore instead of looking for conspiracy theory of attackers waiting to harm your Collateral
Can you please act more like an adult and refrain from attaching people personally? Thank you!

Furthermore, I appreciate that @bitcrab describes what is going on in his perspective, even though people may disagree with his conclusions.
There are forces in play that seem to have sufficient liquidity to place with BTS valuation, and that is not the first time.

As a committee member, I (and bitcrab) need to make sure that the core value proposition of bitassets is kept and we follow different
procedures to achieve that. Bitcrab seems to be more experimental friendly than others and I like that he can freely discuss those in
the forums. Personal attacks are inacceptable - no matter what!

Other than that, conflicting interests are only natural and they should be address, but this thread was to discuss consequences of trades as
they happend in the past and learn from them.
Give BitShares a try! Use the http://testnet.bitshares.eu provided by http://bitshares.eu powered by ChainSquad GmbH

Offline Thul3

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Re: review the drastic fall
« Reply #27 on: August 10, 2018, 10:17:52 am »
Quote
Bitcrab seems to be more experimental friendly

You mean the break of all point on the WP consensus ?
Or Bitcrab buying his own margin call using commitee funds ?

You call that experimental ?

What is going to happen if everyone starts to be experimental and start breaking each point of their WP ?

But you back even this behavior up and give indirect permission to do so.


Funny he sees this problem once his fake buy wall got eaten up because of external price feeds where he already declared to add new ones and now its a clear attempt to make the buy walls stronger so they can't be taken down anymore.

This is not how a free market wors.Your actions is breaking all principals and is also being used for self benefit and i won't stop informing people about the unacceptable behavior which needs to be changed.

You are using community funds and have ZERO transperancy at all.Decide based on your guts and most important are taking risk which the community never agreed on.

Lowering the Ratio under 2 for the commitee accounts should lead to an instant kick out of the accounts expecially since the accounts had no targeted CR enabled.

You call that being experimental ?


I call that being out of control and leaving all principles which is unacceptable

Offline valtr

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Re: review the drastic fall
« Reply #28 on: August 12, 2018, 04:49:48 pm »
We don't need to protect your asset.Start selling your BTS to lower your CR and there will be no problem anymore instead of looking for conspiracy theory of attackers waiting to harm your Collateral
Can you please act more like an adult and refrain from attaching people personally? Thank you!

Furthermore, I appreciate that @bitcrab describes what is going on in his perspective, even though people may disagree with his conclusions.
There are forces in play that seem to have sufficient liquidity to place with BTS valuation, and that is not the first time.

As a committee member, I (and bitcrab) need to make sure that the core value proposition of bitassets is kept and we follow different
procedures to achieve that. Bitcrab seems to be more experimental friendly than others and I like that he can freely discuss those in
the forums. Personal attacks are inacceptable - no matter what!

Other than that, conflicting interests are only natural and they should be address, but this thread was to discuss consequences of trades as
they happend in the past and learn from them.
xeroc is right