Author Topic: Is it a good idea to lower MSSR of bitCNY from 1.1 to 1.05 or even lower?  (Read 2549 times)

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Offline gghi

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     是的,必须充分讨论。充值费用很高就是个畸形,为什么市场上炙手可热的bitcny我们不敢生产。why? 好比一种商品市场上很吃香,然而我们不敢生产,不是造不出来,而是我们不敢生产。因为只要设法拉高喂价就可以生产更多的bitcny。是因为我们的思想被禁锢了。

     
Yes, we must discuss it fully. The high cost of recharge is a deformity. Why do we dare not produce bitcny in the market?why?  It is like a commodity market is very popular, but we dare not produce, not make, but we dare not produce. As long as we try to raise the feed price, we can produce more bitcny. It is because our minds are imprisoned.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2018, 10:22:45 am by gghi »

Offline paliboy

First 3 witnesses who changed MSSR :

witness.yao
delegate.freedom
magicwallet.witness

If you got them as witness voted you can unvote them if you don't agree to their actions

To be more precise, those three changed MSSR on bitCNY.

witness.yao changed it also on bitUSD and bitEUR that was not part of the discussion!!!

Offline xeroc

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any doc that describe the design? I haven't found any in https://github.com/bitshares/bsips
https://github.com/bitshares/bsips/pull/86


actually China community has discussed this topic a lot, it's not a very new idea. witnesses like magicwallet has suggested to reduce MSSR before, they are not "just do it".
That is good news. The point I am trying to make is that the english-speaking community was not made aware prior to the fact.

How about using the BSIP framework (which offers to write so called "informational" proposal) to bring this proposal before the (english-speaking) community in a known format.
These days, many voters actually read the shareholder summary of BSIPs to build an opinion.

Please craft a BSIP and get it discussed ... that way actions of witnesses would be based on "some" document.

Currently, the actions of those witnesses that go for 5% already just forces me to flag them as bad actors ...
I'd rather keep them approved - considering I actually consider reducing the MSSR worth testing - maybe not to 5% but rather 7% - but that is what needs to be discussed with the BTS voters)
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Offline Yao

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First 3 witnesses who changed MSSR :

witness.yao
delegate.freedom
magicwallet.witness

If you got them as witness voted you can unvote them if you don't agree to their actions

To be more precise, those three changed MSSR on bitCNY.

witness.yao changed it also on bitUSD and bitEUR that was not part of the discussion!!!

Sorry, a hand mistake has been corrected.
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Offline pluswave

Sorry for so quick changing from 1.1 to 1.05 without any statements here. Yes magicwallet  suggested to have change MSSR in wechat witness group days ago, but MSSR is unlike price feed itself,   it has a long time consensus for most bitAssets (which is 1.1).  we should discuss more and make a scheduled change statement. For now, it happened and react to the opinion of magicwallet, we just leave it as is until next change (this time make a statement before changing back or any other number). If we can agree on make a test for some time (i.e 3 m),
at the end of the test, will also make our opinion public available before action.
blog: https://blog.xiaofuxing.name
org: https://www.magicwallet.io
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Online bitcrab

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actually China community has discussed this topic a lot, it's not a very new idea. witnesses like magicwallet has suggested to reduce MSSR before, they are not "just do it".
That is good news. The point I am trying to make is that the english-speaking community was not made aware prior to the fact.

How about using the BSIP framework (which offers to write so called "informational" proposal) to bring this proposal before the (english-speaking) community in a known format.
These days, many voters actually read the shareholder summary of BSIPs to build an opinion.

Please craft a BSIP and get it discussed ... that way actions of witnesses would be based on "some" document.

Currently, the actions of those witnesses that go for 5% already just forces me to flag them as bad actors ...
I'd rather keep them approved - considering I actually consider reducing the MSSR worth testing - maybe not to 5% but rather 7% - but that is what needs to be discussed with the BTS voters)

I can draft a BSIP, but seems a little strange...

why initially MCR and MSSR are not set as committee controlled parameters but are determined by witnesses? I don't know, I feel maybe setting them as committee controlled parameters is better but I am not sure.


 
« Last Edit: August 16, 2018, 10:58:14 am by bitcrab »

Offline Yao

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Sorry for so quick changing from 1.1 to 1.05 without any statements here. Yes magicwallet  suggested to have change MSSR in wechat witness group days ago, but MSSR is unlike price feed itself,   it has a long time consensus for most bitAssets (which is 1.1).  we should discuss more and make a scheduled change statement. For now, it happened and react to the opinion of magicwallet, we just leave it as is until next change (this time make a statement before changing back or any other number). If we can agree on make a test for some time (i.e 3 m),
at the end of the test, will also make our opinion public available before action.

In fact, we have been discussing the parameters of MSSR in "BTS witness internal discussion" WeChat Group 8 months ago.

Here is the screenshot of the discussion:
https://steemit.com/bitshares/@imyao/bts-witness-wechat-talked-about-mssr-from-2017-12-29

In the past eight months, I have repeatedly expressed opinions on this issue in the group. @bitcrab finally posted this post to face this problem, I have already been eager to try.

Of course, I am too hasty, but the users of the Chinese community have complained about the high premium of bitCNY for more than a year. Why not try to do an experiment?
« Last Edit: August 16, 2018, 11:35:04 am by Yao »
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Offline binggo

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1. Charge the mortgagor Margin Called(mandatory liquidation)deal  fees, charge 5% or higher
2. Change the MSSR to 105%
4. Change the collateral ratio to two parts: Margin Call ratio(175%)and Maintenance collateral ratio(185%or180%).

IF want to change the MSSR to 105%, must have 1 or 4, can't separate!!!

And the time is not the good chance to change the MSSR, must wait the market turnning to good!!!

witness.yao
delegate.freedom
magicwallet.witness

Please change back to 110%, must wait the market turnning to good!!!

If the market weight of BITUSD is large, the BITUSD MSSR must be changed too.
 
« Last Edit: August 16, 2018, 12:37:07 pm by binggo »

Offline Yao

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Chinese community discussion about "bitCNY premium of up to 10% leads to poor user deposit experience(The deposit fee is too high and Fiat CNY is not willing to enter to DEX.)" and "10% off sell BTS has led to a chain of mandatory closed positions" for a long time, abit posted an ideas  on April 16, 2018: dynamic adjustment of maintenance collateral ratio and Maximum short squeeze ratio.

See the topic post by @abit :https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=26315.0 using Google Translate.

and this topic:https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=26762.msg319760#msg319760
« Last Edit: August 16, 2018, 12:02:13 pm by Yao »
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Offline xeroc

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I am glad to see we finally have a discussion.

1. Charge the mortgagor Margin Called(mandatory liquidation)deal  fees, charge 5% or higher
2. Change the MSSR to 105%
4. Change the collateral ratio to two parts: Margin Call ratio(175%)and Maintenance collateral ratio(185%or180%).

IF want to change the MSSR to 105%, must have 1 or 4, can't separate!!!

And the time is not the good chance to change the MSSR, must wait the market turnning to good!!!

What makes you believe those settings are objectively good and *balanced*?
I am not sure what point 4) does, there only is a maintenance ratio and a short squeeze ratio. Never heard of a margin call ratio ..

Quote
witness.yao
delegate.freedom
magicwallet.witness

Please change back to 110%, must wait the market turnning to good!!!
This, allthough my reasons is that they changed the MSSR without broader discussion (at least in the rest of the world).
A simple BSIP could be enought to let people know about the conclusions made in discussions!
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Offline xeroc

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I can draft a BSIP, but seems a little strange...
Why strange? There are many informational BSIPs and BSIPs that merely show commonly used procedures. Not ever BSIP
must come with a hard fork. Also no need to have a worker voting for every BSIP (IMHO) ..
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Offline pc

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MSSR has one specific purpose: to incentivize shorters to avoid being margin called (or rather to punish them if they are). Margin calls are bad for the health of our smartcoins and should be avoided. Shorters are expected to actively manage their positions so they are *not* margin called.

It is clear, IMO, that bitCNY shorters are doing a very bad job here. As can be seen here (https://wallet.bitshares.org/#/asset/CNY ), most shorters make use of the recently introduced target_collateral_ratio to keep their collateral at the bare minimum. Obviously, they *prefer* being margin called. At the same time, they are *rewarded* from the settlement offset of 5% everytime someone settles a long position!

The logical conclusion is that the MSSR must be increased so its original purpose is fulfilled.


*Once again*, while BTS is in a downtrend, certain people come up with creative ideas to protect their own interests. So tired of this.
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Offline binggo

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MSSR has one specific purpose: to incentivize shorters to avoid being margin called (or rather to punish them if they are). Margin calls are bad for the health of our smartcoins and should be avoided. Shorters are expected to actively manage their positions so they are *not* margin called.

It is clear, IMO, that bitCNY shorters are doing a very bad job here. As can be seen here (https://wallet.bitshares.org/#/asset/CNY ), most shorters make use of the recently introduced target_collateral_ratio to keep their collateral at the bare minimum. Obviously, they *prefer* being margin called. At the same time, they are *rewarded* from the settlement offset of 5% everytime someone settles a long position!

The logical conclusion is that the MSSR must be increased so its original purpose is fulfilled.


*Once again*, while BTS is in a downtrend, certain people come up with creative ideas to protect their own interests. So tired of this.

very simple to solve the problem of keeping their collateral at the bare minimum.

1. Charge the mortgagor Margin Called(mandatory liquidation)deal  fees, charge 5% or higher

4. Change the collateral ratio to two parts: Margin Call ratio(175%)and Maintenance collateral ratio(185%or180%).

i don't want to explain why.

But Increased the MSSR is the worst idea, can't take any advantage to the bitasset.

110% MSSR was harming the system, i don't want to explain this too.

WHY?! WHY?! WHY?! EVERYONE WANT "BALANCE“, WHO GOT IT?
« Last Edit: August 16, 2018, 01:05:38 pm by binggo »

Offline gghi

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锚定不成功主要表现为bitCNY的短缺和过剩,其实感觉跟这些参数关系不大,原因在于bitCNY的市场需求和BTS价格没有直接的决定关系,需求无法有效传导给供应。

BSIP38等改动意义很大,可以很有效地降低出现黑天鹅的风险,但对于调节bitCNY供给来说,个人认为还是要靠公开市场操作这样的方式。

这两个参数虽然是BM拍脑袋得出,但个人觉得还算比较合理,不象当初40BTS的转账费用,以及0清算补偿那样明显不合理。

如果改怎么改呢?比如现在的价格下,把1.75改为1.5?虽然增加了供应量,但也增大了黑天鹅的风险吧?不一定是个好主意。

       巨蟹的认识很清楚,锚定偏差很大的确不是这些参数决定的。主要还是bitcny的市场需求和bts 的价格之间脱节了。应该是bitcny需求大,那么喂价随之升高才对。bitcny过剩那么喂价降低才合理。应该随着bitcny 的需求动态调整喂价的价格才是根本解决办法。bitcny的市场需求目前从鼓鼓的充值费看的比较清楚,所以鼓鼓给我们提供了bitcny的供求状况。那么我们应该参照鼓鼓的充值费率来动态调整喂价,是时候让喂价掌握在内盘系统手里了,不应该伸长脖子被外盘割了。

        靠巨蟹以及资金救市其实不是好办法,应该从机制上改变。只要让bitcny的需求和喂价之间联动,那么爆仓惩罚下调为20%,或者更高都行,做到无论牛熊锚定都很稳定。这样BTS就成功了。我的建议是只要鼓鼓充值费率为正值,那么就不断的抬高喂价,动态调整直到充值费为0而无法拉高为止。

        目前的问题应该是不合理的市场定价,从而导致了”喂价“不能很好的与bitcny需求联动。所以现在急需调整喂价,让喂价很好的反映出bitcny的需求。也就是根据bitcny的需求动态调整喂价,那么这些问题就迎刃而解了。智能货币bitcny的锚定人民币必将会更加精确,波动范围一定会很小很小。


     bitcrab  knows very well that anchoring bias is not really determined by these parameters. The main reason is that the market demand of bitcny is out of line with the price of BTS. It should be the demand of bitcny, so the price of the food is higher. Bitcny surplus, then the price reduction is reasonable. It is the fundamental solution to dynamically adjust the price of feed with the demand of bitcny. At present, the market demand of bitcny is clearly seen from the drum charge, so drum provides us with the supply and demand situation of bitcny. So we should adjust the price dynamically according to the drum charging rate. It's time for the price to be in the hands of the internal disc system. We shouldn't stretch our neck and be cut by the external disc.

Relying on cancer and capital saving is not a good way to change the mechanism. As long as there is a linkage between bitcny's demand and feeding prices, the penalty for bursting can be reduced to 20%, or higher, to be stable regardless of the bull-bear anchor. So BTS succeeded. My suggestion is that as long as the charging rate is positive, the feeding price will be raised continuously and adjusted dynamically until the charging rate is zero and can not be raised.

The current problem should be unreasonable market pricing, which leads to "feeding" not well linked to bitcny demand. Therefore, it is urgent to adjust the feed price so that the feed price can reflect the demand of bitcny very well. That is to say, according to the needs of bitcny, the price adjustment is dynamically adjusted. The anchor of the smart money bitcny will be more accurate and the fluctuation will be very small.

      参见  https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=26315.0
« Last Edit: August 16, 2018, 01:37:04 pm by gghi »

Online bitcrab

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MSSR has one specific purpose: to incentivize shorters to avoid being margin called (or rather to punish them if they are). Margin calls are bad for the health of our smartcoins and should be avoided. Shorters are expected to actively manage their positions so they are *not* margin called.

It is clear, IMO, that bitCNY shorters are doing a very bad job here. As can be seen here (https://wallet.bitshares.org/#/asset/CNY ), most shorters make use of the recently introduced target_collateral_ratio to keep their collateral at the bare minimum. Obviously, they *prefer* being margin called. At the same time, they are *rewarded* from the settlement offset of 5% everytime someone settles a long position!

The logical conclusion is that the MSSR must be increased so its original purpose is fulfilled.


*Once again*, while BTS is in a downtrend, certain people come up with creative ideas to protect their own interests. So tired of this.

margin call is not bad or good, it will always happen, no use to blame bitCNY shorters who prefer being margin called, they have their risk and they provide liquidity.

in current condition it's clear one should not do force settlement, to just buy is obviously cheaper.

from the perspective of the whole system, the rules need to guarantee the risk being released in time and the BTS longers being encouraged enough.

Yes, while BTS is in a downtrend, I always think a lot on how to protect the interests of BTS longers, I feel this is  a BTS committee members' responsibility.