Author Topic: suggest to disable forcesettlement for bitCNY  (Read 2039 times)

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Offline bitcrab

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suggest to disable forcesettlement for bitCNY
« on: November 06, 2018, 10:12:29 am »
at this moment the settlement price is lower than latest price in bitCNY market. which means the debt positions are in risk to be force sold in a under market price.



it is not acceptable.

bitCNY is in good liquidity, if bitCNY want to convert bitCNY to BTS he can just trade in the market, here the force settlement here is not necessary but sometimes provide chance for speculator to exploit debt position owners.

I suggest to disable force settlement for bitCNY.

kindly let me know your opinion.

Offline sschiessl

Re: suggest to disable forcesettlement for bitCNY
« Reply #1 on: November 06, 2018, 10:32:34 am »
Chance for speculator to exploit debt position owners is implicit arbitrage and will be healthy for the market. How can it be exploited? The Force Settlement Offset is 5%, which should make it hard enough. Please elaborate

Force settlement is a feature that must remain available IMO, it is a worst-case scenario measure. It will certainly never be used in a liquid market, the UI prominently shows the user if the market is the better choice.
But if there is any incident that the market crashes, the force settlement option must be available and I would not want to wait for anyone to activate it then.

Online binggo

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Re: suggest to disable forcesettlement for bitCNY
« Reply #2 on: November 06, 2018, 11:11:20 am »
I suggest to choose the highest price as the last feed price  from the CEX price and the dynamically feed price.

If use the highest price as the last feed price, we can keep the forcesettlement and the dynamically feed price.

and the market may still be a free market possible.

https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=27357.0

« Last Edit: November 06, 2018, 12:47:16 pm by binggo »

Offline Thul3

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Re: suggest to disable forcesettlement for bitCNY
« Reply #3 on: November 06, 2018, 11:26:52 am »
You are turning a free market into a centrally planned economy

Offline Customminer

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Re: suggest to disable forcesettlement for bitCNY
« Reply #4 on: November 06, 2018, 01:04:33 pm »
No way. I'd far rather see a global settlement take place than for force settlement to be disabled. If I'm unable to claim the backing collateral directly, then there might as well be no backing collateral (fiat's worst practice).

I'd far rather see these permissions/flags entirely surrendered preventing any such proposal. Funnily enough though, I'm unable to do so within the UI at this time: https://github.com/bitshares/bitshares-ui/issues/2043
« Last Edit: November 06, 2018, 01:29:44 pm by Customminer »
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Offline bitcrab

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Re: suggest to disable forcesettlement for bitCNY
« Reply #5 on: November 06, 2018, 01:48:07 pm »
You are turning a free market into a centrally planned economy

what you called free market is a forrest where beasts can kill and eat people.

the real free market is a common infrastructure, it need careful design and will evolve with consensus.
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Offline bitcrab

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Re: suggest to disable forcesettlement for bitCNY
« Reply #6 on: November 06, 2018, 01:50:20 pm »
Chance for speculator to exploit debt position owners is implicit arbitrage and will be healthy for the market. How can it be exploited? The Force Settlement Offset is 5%, which should make it hard enough. Please elaborate

Force settlement is a feature that must remain available IMO, it is a worst-case scenario measure. It will certainly never be used in a liquid market, the UI prominently shows the user if the market is the better choice.
But if there is any incident that the market crashes, the force settlement option must be available and I would not want to wait for anyone to activate it then.

I own a debt position with CR=3, now you force me to sell the collateral to you with a under market price, this is not exploiting, are you joking?


Online binggo

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Re: suggest to disable forcesettlement for bitCNY
« Reply #7 on: November 06, 2018, 01:53:17 pm »
Chance for speculator to exploit debt position owners is implicit arbitrage and will be healthy for the market. How can it be exploited? The Force Settlement Offset is 5%, which should make it hard enough. Please elaborate

Force settlement is a feature that must remain available IMO, it is a worst-case scenario measure. It will certainly never be used in a liquid market, the UI prominently shows the user if the market is the better choice.
But if there is any incident that the market crashes, the force settlement option must be available and I would not want to wait for anyone to activate it then.

I own a debt position with CR=3, now you force me to sell the collateral to you with a under market price, this is not exploiting, are you joking?

what cause this?

Offline Thul3

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Re: suggest to disable forcesettlement for bitCNY
« Reply #8 on: November 06, 2018, 01:54:16 pm »
You are turning a free market into a centrally planned economy

what you called free market is a forrest where beasts can kill and eat people.

the real free market is a common infrastructure, it need careful design and will evolve with consensus.

Consensus of what ?The people or the few proxies acting like central banks?
You make no announcements,no clear rules no borders no nothing and we the majority of traders are forced to accept it ?
Also is it just me or is the trading volume on DEX decreasing quickly and pushed down from its trone ?
« Last Edit: November 06, 2018, 02:02:38 pm by Thul3 »

Offline xeroc

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Re: suggest to disable forcesettlement for bitCNY
« Reply #9 on: November 06, 2018, 01:55:28 pm »
I own a debt position with CR=3, now you force me to sell the collateral to you with a under market price, this is not exploiting, are you joking?
Well, that is a consequence of BSIP42 and not of settlements per se.
Multiple solutions to that have been proposed already among which are:
- let the price feed reflect the actual pricing again and do negative feedback through MCR
- introduce a distinct price for settlements (though I believe that would allow exploting BSIP42)

The proposal to remove one of the strongest reasons for bitassets to have a "floor"-price isn't easy for me to understand.
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Offline bitcrab

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Re: suggest to disable forcesettlement for bitCNY
« Reply #10 on: November 06, 2018, 02:09:07 pm »
I own a debt position with CR=3, now you force me to sell the collateral to you with a under market price, this is not exploiting, are you joking?
Well, that is a consequence of BSIP42 and not of settlements per se.
Multiple solutions to that have been proposed already among which are:
- let the price feed reflect the actual pricing again and do negative feedback through MCR
- introduce a distinct price for settlements (though I believe that would allow exploting BSIP42)

The proposal to remove one of the strongest reasons for bitassets to have a "floor"-price isn't easy for me to understand.

the force settlement is already a problem for long time, that's why the bitCNY offset is set to 5%. BSIP42 just make the problem apparent.

maybe the MCR solution can make things better, but I think it will cost at least several months for it to come, in this period we just let the debt position owner be put into the risk of being exploited?

Online binggo

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Re: suggest to disable forcesettlement for bitCNY
« Reply #11 on: November 06, 2018, 02:13:12 pm »
I own a debt position with CR=3, now you force me to sell the collateral to you with a under market price, this is not exploiting, are you joking?
Well, that is a consequence of BSIP42 and not of settlements per se.
Multiple solutions to that have been proposed already among which are:
- let the price feed reflect the actual pricing again and do negative feedback through MCR
- introduce a distinct price for settlements (though I believe that would allow exploting BSIP42)

The proposal to remove one of the strongest reasons for bitassets to have a "floor"-price isn't easy for me to understand.

the force settlement is already a problem for long time, that's why the bitCNY offset is set to 5%. BSIP42 just make the problem apparent.

maybe the MCR solution can make things better, but I think it will cost at least several months for it to come, in this period we just let the debt position owner be put into the risk of being exploited?


We have the choice, If use the highest price as the last feed price, we can keep the forcesettlement and the dynamically feed price.

just think about it!

Offline xeroc

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Re: suggest to disable forcesettlement for bitCNY
« Reply #12 on: November 06, 2018, 02:15:18 pm »
we can't disable force settlement without new code either.
The only short-term solution that I can think of is to get back to non-BSIP42 and tune the short squeeze protection ratio. maybe that helps
mitigate the situation until the MCR fix is implemented.
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Offline Customminer

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Re: suggest to disable forcesettlement for bitCNY
« Reply #13 on: November 06, 2018, 02:17:01 pm »
You are turning a free market into a centrally planned economy

what you called free market is a forrest where beasts can kill and eat people.

Then don't wander off into the forest if you're not prepared to face beasts? You could always stick to trading UIA or perhaps experiment with non-external-referenced bitassets if you're wary of the risk associated with shorting bitassets.

Quote
We have the choice, If use the highest price as the last feed price, we can keep the forcesettlement and the dynamically feed price.

Couldn't an external actor target this sole 'highest price' to force an inflation of the feed price to attack collateral holders?
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Offline bitcrab

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Re: suggest to disable forcesettlement for bitCNY
« Reply #14 on: November 06, 2018, 02:38:38 pm »
if it is impossible to disable force settlement, I think there's only one choice to fix the bug: request that the feed price not lower than market price*96% for CNY, not lower than market price for USD.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2018, 02:44:57 pm by bitcrab »