Author Topic: Committee Fund Operation Review  (Read 1247 times)

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Online bitcrab

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Committee Fund Operation Review
« on: September 10, 2019, 06:15:32 pm »
committee-account has bought back BTS with the accumulated bitCNY for weeks.

Burning BTS has not got enough support and can be ignored.

Creating and managing a debt position is not supported up to now.

So seems what committee-account can do in this area is just "buy while cheap and sell while expensive".

Even so, there are also topics need to discuss, like what price is cheap and what price is expense, and others.

This thread is to provide a place to discuss the relevant topics.

Online binggo

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Re: Committee Fund Operation Review
« Reply #1 on: September 11, 2019, 08:56:45 am »
We just need to buy back BTS for now.

Other usages maybe we need a long time to think about.

Offline Bangzi

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Re: Committee Fund Operation Review
« Reply #2 on: September 11, 2019, 09:10:21 am »
We need to make comparison before determine BTS price is cheap or expensive. Below is simple and effective comparison method since BTS aim to surpass BTC.

If BTS Market Cap more than BTC Market Cap, then is Expensive.
If BTS Market Cap less than BTC Market Cap, then is Cheap.
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Online bitcrab

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Re: Committee Fund Operation Review
« Reply #3 on: September 11, 2019, 09:17:50 am »
We need to make comparison before determine BTS price is cheap or expensive. Below is simple and effective comparison method since BTS aim to surpass BTC.

If BTS Market Cap more than BTC Market Cap, then is Expensive.
If BTS Market Cap less than BTC Market Cap, then is Cheap.

emm, good, so you mean BTS is always cheap since its birth, never be expensive up to now. :)

Online bitcrab

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Re: Committee Fund Operation Review
« Reply #4 on: September 12, 2019, 03:40:58 am »
I also would like to talk the possibility of managing a debt position. even I am aware that almost everyone try to avoid it.

say, now with 5.77M BTS, it we  set margin call price = 0.1CNY, 460K bitCNY can be borrowed.

good to buy back BTS with these bitCNY?

as there are continuous bitCNY fee income to committee-account, the risk is very very low.

surely 5.77M BTS is not so much, either to use it will give little impact, but after BSIP74 is implemented, more BTS will come into committee-account, if there are tens or even hundreds of MBTS in committee-account, shall we still leave them there without using them?

On one hand many workers are voted down as the ecosystem is so weak, OTOH why we do not use the accumulated BTS to give some support to the ecosystem?

as I know recently BBF want to sell BTS to get 600K CNY to pay worker salary, suppose price=0.24CNY, need 2.5MBTS.

Why not let BBF pay the 2.5M BTS to committee-account, then the latter borrow 600K CNY with 8.27M BTS and margin call price=0.116 CNY(less than current GS price), and pay back to BBF?
 
just talk.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2019, 04:04:33 am by bitcrab »

Online binggo

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Re: Committee Fund Operation Review
« Reply #5 on: September 12, 2019, 04:18:37 am »
I also would like to talk the possibility of managing a debt position. even I am aware that almost everyone try to avoid it.

say, now with 5.77M BTS, it we  set margin call price = 0.1CNY, 460K bitCNY can be borrowed.

good to buy back BTS with these bitCNY?

as there are continuous bitCNY fee income to committee-account, the risk is very very low.

surely 5.77M BTS is not so much, either to use it will give little impact, but after BSIP74 is implemented, more BTS will come into committee-account, if there are tens or even hundreds of MBTS in committee-account, shall we still leave them there without using them?

On one hand many workers are voted down as the ecosystem is so weak, OTOH why we do not use the accumulated BTS to give some support to the ecosystem?

as I know recently BBF want to sell BTS to get 600K CNY to pay worker salary, suppose price=0.24CNY, need 2.5MBTS.

Why not let BBF pay the 2.5M BTS to committee-account, then the latter borrow 600K CNY with 8.27M BTS and margin call price=0.116 CNY(less than current GS price), and pay back to BBF?
 
just talk.

BBF can give all the 25M BTS to committee-account,then the committee-account  borrow 2M CNY first for BBF salary,the fee can pay back the debt slowly.

When price go up high enough, committee-account just need to sell little bts to pay back the debt, it is very suitable for now and BBF didn't need to realease so much bts to the market.

1 month need about 600K bitcny.
9,10,11,12.


and notice BBF, if the worker get bitcny, every bitcny if they want to withdraw, please let them use bitcny to buy GDEX.BTC or OPEN.BTC.... forbid to use bitcny buy bts in DEX,then dump BTS in poloniex or other CEX.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2019, 08:41:41 am by binggo »

Offline sschiessl

Re: Committee Fund Operation Review
« Reply #6 on: September 12, 2019, 07:21:10 am »
Why not let BBF pay the 2.5M BTS to committee-account, then the latter borrow 600K CNY with 8.27M BTS and margin call price=0.116 CNY(less than current GS price), and pay back to BBF?

I find this a good suggestion, joint effort and using community funds as collateral for community approved payments.

Offline clockwork

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Re: Committee Fund Operation Review
« Reply #7 on: September 12, 2019, 08:17:39 am »
Why not let BBF pay the 2.5M BTS to committee-account, then the latter borrow 600K CNY with 8.27M BTS and margin call price=0.116 CNY(less than current GS price), and pay back to BBF?

I find this a good suggestion, joint effort and using community funds as collateral for community approved payments.

would have to be a separate account for transparency reasons as unlocked collateral (as market fees pay back the loan) should be burned back to the chain

Online bitcrab

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Re: Committee Fund Operation Review
« Reply #8 on: September 12, 2019, 08:20:05 am »
Why not let BBF pay the 2.5M BTS to committee-account, then the latter borrow 600K CNY with 8.27M BTS and margin call price=0.116 CNY(less than current GS price), and pay back to BBF?

I find this a good suggestion, joint effort and using community funds as collateral for community approved payments.

would have to be a separate account for transparency reasons as unlocked collateral (as market fees pay back the loan) should be burned back to the chain

why burn?

it's OK to just operate in committee-account, the BTS is bought by committee-account and can be just kept in committee-account, and can be sold when BTS price is high enough.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2019, 08:22:22 am by bitcrab »

Online bitProfessor

Re: Committee Fund Operation Review
« Reply #9 on: September 12, 2019, 08:57:34 am »
Why not let BBF pay the 2.5M BTS to committee-account, then the latter borrow 600K CNY with 8.27M BTS and margin call price=0.116 CNY(less than current GS price), and pay back to BBF?

I find this a good suggestion, joint effort and using community funds as collateral for community approved payments.
It looks good. Need to think about it.

Online bitcrab

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Re: Committee Fund Operation Review
« Reply #10 on: September 12, 2019, 09:06:32 am »
Why not let BBF pay the 2.5M BTS to committee-account, then the latter borrow 600K CNY with 8.27M BTS and margin call price=0.116 CNY(less than current GS price), and pay back to BBF?

I find this a good suggestion, joint effort and using community funds as collateral for community approved payments.

if the demand is still there, I feel it can be operated like this:

1.committee-account borrow 500K bitCNY with putting all the BTS balance into collateral.(5.77MBTS, margin call price=0.1384CNY)
2.committee-account claim 50K bitCNY fee.
2.committee-account trade 600K bitCNY with BBF account with the "barter proposal" to get BTS in market price.

let's do it?

Online binggo

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Re: Committee Fund Operation Review
« Reply #11 on: September 12, 2019, 09:31:25 am »
Why not let BBF pay the 2.5M BTS to committee-account, then the latter borrow 600K CNY with 8.27M BTS and margin call price=0.116 CNY(less than current GS price), and pay back to BBF?

I find this a good suggestion, joint effort and using community funds as collateral for community approved payments.

if the demand is still there, I feel it can be operated like this:

1.committee-account borrow 500K bitCNY with putting all the BTS balance into collateral.(5.77MBTS, margin call price=0.1384CNY)
2.committee-account claim 50K bitCNY fee.
2.committee-account trade 600K bitCNY with BBF account with the "barter proposal" to get BTS in market price.

let's do it?

https://workers.bitshares.foundation/201902-bitshares-core
31-36 weeks (07/28/2019-09/14/2019)bill :598.55461K bitcny

Now committee-account has 5,778,869.69868 bts and 118,617.8576 bitcny,unclaim market fee 50,069.3515 bitCNY.

OK, maybe can do it, and maybe BBF need give 2.6M bts to committee-account.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2019, 09:32:56 am by binggo »

Offline Crypto Kong

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Re: Committee Fund Operation Review
« Reply #12 on: September 12, 2019, 10:32:02 am »
This is, for once, starting to sound like an operation that makes sense. Bitcrabs suggested call price of 0.1 sounds reasonable, we should also agree a target price at which efforts should be made to lower the call price. For example, if price hits 0.15 all available funds are used to lower call price.

If we can avoid BBF selling BTS, we should.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2019, 10:33:44 am by Crypto Kong »

Online bitcrab

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Re: Committee Fund Operation Review
« Reply #13 on: September 12, 2019, 10:46:11 am »
proposal 1.10.47576:
Change committee-account bitCNY debt by 500,000.0000 bitCNY and collateral by 5,762,081.78439 BTS
hope committee members can check.

Offline abit

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Re: Committee Fund Operation Review
« Reply #14 on: September 12, 2019, 01:58:56 pm »
If the committee to create debt positions, from past experience, we simply don't know what price is safe. When OMO was buying BTS at 1.05 CNY, people didn't think there would be a day BTS price could fall to 0.22 CNY. Personally I don't want to take the same risk again.

The current issue is:
* BBF wants to pay bitCNY to workers according to the terms defined in the workers, the biggest part is for the core dev worker.
* BBF now has only BTS.
* BBF doesn't want to sell BTS directly to the market for bitCNY now, because the continuous selling done before lead to criticisms, BBF wants to mitigate the criticisms.

The obvious solution for BBF is to pay BTS directly to the workers if the workers accept BTS. AFAIK all the core team members agree to be paid in BTS under certain conditions, E.G. got paid soon enough after issued an invoice to avoid taxing issues.

It seems BBF didn't accept this solution.

By the way, IMHO the predefined terms -- paying out bitCNY -- don't make much sense if the people getting bitCNY don't know how to efficiently use it, because bitCNY is actually not convenient enough for most of people working for the workers, because most of them don't live in China so bitCNY even fiat CNY is useless for them.

* The most common path for them to exchange bitCNY to local fiat for daily expense is to buy BTS with bitCNY in DEX then sell BTS for BTC in CEX's, then sell BTC for fiat; the step selling BTS for BTC would suppress BTS price and lead to margin calls in the DEX which led to criticisms. The question is, if people got bitCNY, they always sell for BTS, why not give them BTS in the first place?

* An option is to buy an IOU BTC (e.g. OPEN.BTC, GDEX.BTC or etc) with bitCNY in the DEX, but the market depths are low.

* Another option is to exchange bitCNY to BTC via blocktrades, but exchange rate provided by blocktrades is usually worse.

* Actually there is another good path: selling bitCNY for QC in zb.cn at almost 1:1, they buy BTC or whatever with QC there. This won't affect BTS price in CEX. But not many people know this.
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Offline Bangzi

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Re: Committee Fund Operation Review
« Reply #15 on: September 12, 2019, 02:22:31 pm »
* BBF wants to pay bitCNY to workers according to the terms defined in the workers, the biggest part is for the core dev worker.

If BBF didn't accept the solution because they want to follow what is written in black and white, then just do an amendment WP to change the payout term from BitCNY to BTS. Voted in the WP for 7 days then consider community agree to change the term.
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Online binggo

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Re: Committee Fund Operation Review
« Reply #16 on: September 12, 2019, 07:33:30 pm »
They can trade:
bitcny to QC in ZB
bitcny to CNC in AEX, which publish in BTS chain.
The better way is which trade bitcny to GDEX.USDT, maybe can find someone to help this deal.

Now pay 600K bitcny to get 2.5M BTS or more, can provent these bts dump to the market. We have already see what have happened by AVG2907 dumping the market with 2M BTS.
After get these 2.5M BTS, the market fee can pay back these debt until close this position.

OR,

The BBF can borrow 600K bitcny itself,  and the market fee will not buy back bts from market and will pay back the BBF debt as now market price(0.24bitcny) , when the BBF this debt was closed with 600K bitcny from the market fee, the BBF must send 2.5M BTS to committee-account.
Something like Forward Contract.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2019, 02:00:39 am by binggo »

Online bitcrab

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Re: Committee Fund Operation Review
« Reply #17 on: September 13, 2019, 01:46:38 am »
The BBF can borrow 600K bitcny itself,  and the market fee will not buy back bts from market and will pay back the BBF debt as now market price(0.24bitcny) , when the BBF this debt was closed with 600K bitcny from the market feed, the BBF must send 2.5M BTS to committee-account.
Something like Forward Contract.

too complex, it will cost 5 months for committee-account to collect 600k bitCNY fee. I believe BBF prefer to sell in the market instead of waiting for 5 months.

committee-account is more suitable in managing a debt position than others as it has continuous smartcoin income.

it's good if BBF can directly pay BTS as salary to workers, however, I believe we still need to discuss the possibility and sense for committee-account to manage a debt position.

Online bitcrab

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Re: Committee Fund Operation Review
« Reply #18 on: September 16, 2019, 03:01:53 pm »
I created a proposal 1.10.47901 to borrow 20K bitUSD with collateralizing 2M BTS, margin call price = 0.015USD, far below GS price. hope committee members can check.

the intention is to use the borrowed bitUSD to close the debt position of committee-usdoperator to remove the margin call risk, and get the 1.01M BTS back to committee-account.

It is not a good selection for committee-account to reject any debt position management.

when there is big amount of BTS accumulated in committee-account, if these BTS just stay there, it will not help the ecosystem and is a waste.

if we borrow some amount of smartcoin with taking good care of the risk, and use the borrowed smartcoin to buy back BTS in good price, it will greatly support the smartcoin ecosystem.

committee-account is suitable to do so as it has continuous smartcoin income.

to control the risk, I suggest a principle for managing debt position:

1. margin call price should not be higher than GS price, otherwise all the income will be used to reduce the margin call price.
2. margin call price should not be higher than 0.03 price, which is the price bottom in the last 1.5 years.

yes, even so it is also possible that the margin call will happen, but if the feed price go below 0.015USD, hundreds of millions of BTS collaterals are already margin called, it is a disaster, the margin call of millions of committee BTS do not make the things much worse.

but the "borrowing and buy back BTS" activity can help to reduce the possibility of BTS price go below 0.015USD, although the possibility is already very low.

I hope everyone can also consider the worker issue, "do not support any big workers when BTS price is under 0.3CNY" is close to a consensus in China community, if we want a healthy BTS ecosystem, we need to try to find ways to sustain BTS price, for example, charge margin call trading to add system income to support the BTS buy back.

and "borrowing and buy back BTS" is also part of the efforts.

Online bitcrab

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Re: Committee Fund Operation Review
« Reply #19 on: September 21, 2019, 06:47:45 am »
as there are already 9175 bitUSD in committee-account, now created a proposal to borrow 10000bitUSD due to request of some committee members:

1.10.48190 | Expires: 27 Sep 16:26
bitcrab created a proposal:
Change committee-account bitUSD debt by 10,000.0000 bitUSD and collateral by 1,500,000.00000 BTS, margin call price = 0.01USD.

the borrowed 10K bitUSD will be used to close the debt position in committee-usdoperator and get the 1.01M BTS back to committee-account.

hope committee members can check.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2019, 09:16:10 am by bitcrab »

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Re: Committee Fund Operation Review
« Reply #20 on: September 23, 2019, 04:58:56 pm »
A new proposal is created to borrow 300K CNY, which will be used to buy back BTS.

1.10.48435 | Expires: 1 Oct 16:38
bitcrab created a proposal:
Change committee-account bitCNY debt by 300,000.0000 bitCNY and collateral by 4,000,000.00000 BTS, margin call price = 0.12CNY

With the accumulation of BTS in committee-account, we need to consider how to use it to contribute most to the ecosystem.

now almost 6M BTS in committee-account, when BSIP74 is active, more BTS will come as the margin call fee, community and committee has vetoed the idea to burn the accumulated BTS, borrowing smartcoin and buy back BTS is one good selection when the price is at bottom.

history shows that the current BTS price is at bottom

the lowest price at 7th Dec 2018 - 0.2175CNY is also the lowest price in more than 2 years. the last time BTS hits this price was at 7th, May, 2017.

after the price fell across 0.55CNY at Nov, 2018, in long time BTS price moves in a bound pattern, now the price is at 0.236CNY, only 10% above the bottom price.

it's reasonable to regard 0.2175CNY as a historical bottom price and this moment is a good time to buy back BTS.




 

risk control consideration:

1. margin call price should not be higher than GS price, otherwise all the income will be used to reduce the margin call price.
2. margin call price should not be higher than 0.2175CNY, which is the price bottom in the last 2.5 years.

even in the worst case that BTS price fall below 0.12CNY, hundreds of millions of collateralized BTS will be margin called, it will be a big disaster, the margin call of this millions of BTS do not add much to the disaster, it's acceptable.

and I'd like to reminder, to borrow and release bitCNY to the market at enough low margin call price can reduce the possibility that BTS price fall below the bottom price.

hope committee members can check and support this proposal.

 
« Last Edit: September 23, 2019, 05:08:17 pm by bitcrab »

Offline chigbolu

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Re: Committee Fund Operation Review
« Reply #21 on: September 23, 2019, 05:21:56 pm »
A new proposal is created to borrow 300K CNY, which will be used to buy back BTS.

1.10.48435 | Expires: 1 Oct 16:38
bitcrab created a proposal:
Change committee-account bitCNY debt by 300,000.0000 bitCNY and collateral by 4,000,000.00000 BTS, margin call price = 0.12CNY

With the accumulation of BTS in committee-account, we need to consider how to use it to contribute most to the ecosystem.

now almost 6M BTS in committee-account, when BSIP74 is active, more BTS will come as the margin call fee, community and committee has vetoed the idea to burn the accumulated BTS, borrowing smartcoin and buy back BTS is one good selection when the price is at bottom.

history shows that the current BTS price is at bottom

the lowest price at 7th Dec 2018 - 0.2175CNY is also the lowest price in more than 2 years. the last time BTS hits this price was at 7th, May, 2017.

after the price fell across 0.55CNY at Nov, 2018, in long time BTS price moves in a bound pattern, now the price is at 0.236CNY, only 10% above the bottom price.

it's reasonable to regard 0.2175CNY as a historical bottom price and this moment is a good time to buy back BTS.




 

risk control consideration:

1. margin call price should not be higher than GS price, otherwise all the income will be used to reduce the margin call price.
2. margin call price should not be higher than 0.2175CNY, which is the price bottom in the last 2.5 years.

even in the worst case that BTS price fall below 0.12CNY, hundreds of millions of collateralized BTS will be margin called, it will be a big disaster, the margin call of this millions of BTS do not add much to the disaster, it's acceptable.

and I'd like to reminder, to borrow and release bitCNY to the market at enough low margin call price can reduce the possibility that BTS price fall below the bottom price.

hope committee members can check and support this proposal.
This is a good one

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