Author Topic: Price  (Read 20842 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline AdamBLevine

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 492
    • View Profile
    • Let's Talk Bitcoin!
Re: Price
« Reply #48 on: March 03, 2014, 03:00:15 pm »
Now sure would be a good time to take some of those angelshares funds and create a big bounty that is paid to the first successful dac to pass xx% profitability for its token holders, honor PTS/AGS with 10% each and survive 6 months.  Then it would be *obvious* that PTS will have value in the future, whereas right now honestly who knows.  In the video it said that Bitshares Music was currently in development but when I spoke to the invictus folks it sounded like they were thinking early 2015 as a reasonable guess. 

This seems like an exceptionally good use of AGS funds as it adds value to the ecosystem and provides a very attractive reason for people to develop for invictus based technologies and honor the 'invisible hand' social contract vs. picking one of the literally seven other protocols that are tackling this same broad problem.   Invictus does not exist in a vacuum, but it's developing like it's in one.   Don't define the tech or specifics as has been done with bounties to the point, just define the outcome you want and let the market participants self organize into the winning combination.
Email me at adam@letstalkbitcoin.com

Offline toast

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4001
    • View Profile
  • BitShares: nikolai
Re: Price
« Reply #47 on: March 03, 2014, 02:58:53 pm »
What?
The price represents the current market valuation. At every moment in the future, the price will reflect the market valuation at that moment. You want I3 to prop it up somehow by infusing it with even more value? You want the market value to be higher than the market value. Did you buy PTS on wrong assumptions about what it represents or something? There's no deadline for DAC proposals...

Quote
Unless they release a product favoring PTS soon or ask a third party to do so, then PTS may not recover, else it will recover when they finally get round to it, but it will be temporary and after that it will drop beyond redemption.

"PTS will drop and not recover unless it recovers before then".
Do not use this post as information for making any important decisions. The only agreements I ever make are informal and non-binding. Take the same precautions as when dealing with a compromised account, scammer, sockpuppet, etc.

Offline barwizi

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 764
  • Noirbits, NoirShares, NoirEx.....lol, noir anyone?
    • View Profile
    • Noirbitstalk.org
Re: Price
« Reply #46 on: March 03, 2014, 02:40:33 pm »
For all intents it seems as though the new shiny toy has overshadowed PTS and the effects are evident. PTS going down this far is not a good thing for invictus in anyway, it means PTS is loosing support, loss of support in this way means that money is now leaving the community, and money is what keeps long term investors around.

Unless they release a product favoring PTS soon or ask a third party to do so, then PTS may not recover, else it will recover when they finally get round to it, but it will be temporary and after that it will drop beyond redemption.
--Bar--  PiNEJGUv4AZVZkLuF6hV4xwbYTRp5etWWJ

The magical land of crypto, no freebies people.

Offline mf-tzo

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1725
    • View Profile
Re: Price
« Reply #45 on: March 03, 2014, 10:05:17 am »
Thank you all for your feedback on that. I fully agree with all of you...I am not panicking and I am also trying to buy now as much PTS I can...

What really bothers me is this huge amount of speculation across the globe. Speculation is good but in this degree as it happens nowdays is bad. High Speculation is the mother of all bad things and is responsible for the destruction of the modern capitalism. In the past, investors wouldn't mind to keep their stocks for a couple of months and also years rather than dumping them upon the release of a new product, news etc...Investments were more stable. Nowdays with the speed of flow of information and all the alternatives investors think that keeping their money for a day in a stock that gives them nothing for a day is a lost day and they try to place them everyday to something else that will give them something...This is how we got here today.This is why Lehman collapsed and we have this economic crisis. This is why my country (Greece) is in debt. I believe that investments should be based on economic fundamentals and not on high speculation.

Having said all that I wouldn't mind if PTS drops to $1. I will sell my car to buy as many as I can...


Offline prophetx

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 54
    • View Profile
Re: Price
« Reply #44 on: March 03, 2014, 06:32:44 am »
besides the awful title, i love this part:

Quote
This means that the price of PTS could be about to drop like a bowl of petunias in midair. Or not.

Either way…

Don’t Panic!

yea let's highlight that in bold  :o

the price is actually lower now than it was before the announcement

Offline Stan

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2908
  • You need to think BIGGER, Pinky...
    • View Profile
    • Cryptonomex
  • BitShares: Stan
Re: Price
« Reply #43 on: March 03, 2014, 05:18:28 am »
I don't want to complain about the huge price drop, since I am still a believer and support I3.

But... I am a long term investor and I am following from the beggining and I didn't see that happening...I thought that there would be some price stability in the price of PTS and not such a huge drop. If I3 knew that this was going to happen, for example if I3 sold PTS like crazy after the snapshot, I think that some advice or warning should have been sent to people who are following from the start in order to protect our shareholdings by selling also and then re-bying low now.

At this point I feel that even since I am here from the beggining I didn't make any profit and later investors coming in now have almost the same advantages as my self. Sure I will get XTS where others won't but with this drop in price I could have cashed some profits and then re-invest. Or do we expect the price to go even lower than that?

I believe that if I3 wants to keep the investors investing in them should send us some opinions, advices or signals of what they think is going to follow. An email like the nice reports that we receive from time to time would have been nice. Not everyone here read the reddit articles...

And I don't think that this would fall under inside information, but rather just an advice for the preservation of the purchase power of the initial investors. Every company sends reports to their clients and to their investors with opinions and advices. They ofcourse writte a disclaimer but they do send out warnings and reports. 

Anyway, I don't want to complain anymore..I should have known better and I should have probably foresee that this would happen...It is just ennoying and makes me think to be more carefull in the future. Every time that there is a new release and the snapshot is taken everyone is going to sell like crazy...This in my opinion creates an instability and uncertainty to people who want to be long term investors..

I appologise in advance if I offended anyone.This is not my intention.It is a free market and everyone is responsible for his actions!

If you held PTS or AGS on Feb 28th you made a huge gain when you consider the combined value of both BitShares PTS and BitShares X.  You still own the future of all Invictus potential in PTS/AGS and you have realized concrete proof of that potential in the release of your first tangible dividend with BitShares X.  But there's more: BitShares X has advanced one stage closer to reality.  Risk has been reduced which means its expected value has jumped.  Delivery of BitShares X increases the value of BitShares PTS because there is now a precedent and people can see how the whole ecosystem works.

We are working to optimize the long term value of this entire industry, not any one component.  If you want to speculate on near-term fluctuations, that is fine but we don't take actions to optimize short-term results. 

This advance-notice article was highlighted multiple times for multiple days here on the forum:

http://letstalkbitcoin.com/caution-watch-for-falling-pts/#.UxQIi_SwLCc

Our ability to publish this information in easily consumable form everywhere is a finite resource.  I wish we could reach out and explain it to each community member individually, but that is obviously not possible.   We rely on people to do their part - which is to keep up with what we release.

Those who put in the extra time to study what we were able to release were totally informed and profited greatly.

If proof of work mining is considered a fair way to distribute shares, then a simple 10 minutes a day using Google to mine available information is another reasonable way "earn" a piece of the gains.  Or simply reading all the posts by "Stan" would cause you to encounter every important needle in the haystack.  I don't write more per day than everyone should be able to read.

Knowledge and understanding is the ultimate proof of work.  Those who did this minimum amount of homework now have that knowledge and deserve their reward even more than those who let their computers do all the work in mining some altcoin du jour.

The information you need is there to be mined. 
The proof is that many people did achieve this level of understanding.


« Last Edit: March 03, 2014, 05:43:35 am by Stan »
Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract of any kind.   These are merely my opinions which I reserve the right to change at any time.

Offline donkeypong

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2329
    • View Profile
Re: Price
« Reply #42 on: March 03, 2014, 05:16:09 am »
Falling PTS: Best deal in town, even substracting the Bitshares X premium. I thought they were worthwhile at $16. At these prices, I'm scooping up all I can.

Offline Markus

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 366
    • View Profile
Re: Price
« Reply #41 on: March 03, 2014, 03:15:55 am »
I don't want to complain about the huge price drop, since I am still a believer and support I3.

This is not a price drop. PTS is just trading ex-dividend. BTSX are the dividend.

this is not accurate exactly... there is an estimated drop in value as things even out between the two... however the speculation is 1 BTS will be worth $12 since 1 PTS is worth $6 which would then equal the $18 it was before the big sell off after the 28th... this all remains to be seen yet... and nobody can confirm or deny it really... we just don't know...

1 PTS gave you about 1.28 BTSX, so (using your figures) this means 1 BTSX should be worth about $9.38 or all of them together 37.5 million $. Since that is about what Mastercoin is worth I don't think it is unreasonable to assume.

Offline Markus

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 366
    • View Profile
Re: Price
« Reply #40 on: March 03, 2014, 03:10:47 am »
Just curious, would it be legal for me to issue a security like "This certificate is worth $100 if toast chooses option A, and $50 if toast chooses option B. Toast will just decide whatever he feels like on date XX."? Would it be legal for me to trade this?

Depends on where you are. Everything is legal somewhere. Well, nearly everything.

Offline Darkbane

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 119
    • View Profile
Re: Price
« Reply #39 on: March 03, 2014, 02:28:45 am »
Quote
Well I do not intend to offend you, but I think you need to learn more about investing and market reactions in supply/demand... we were all informed for several weeks there would be a snapshot taken on february 28th... so by setting such a deadline for the reward of BTS, there will be a natural increase in demand as people want to be apart of that, and naturally once the snapshot is taken, there is no longer a reason for them to hold on to PTS with this method of investing... so they immediately started selling off before demand dropped and prices as well dropped with it...

I believed that people would want to keep their PTS as this supposed to be an asset that will give you dividends in future DACs. It is not like I3 promissed something and didn't deliver, lied or did something wrong to affect the price so dramatically. This was like when Baidu stopped to accept BTCs or Gox bankrupted...I think that in a more liquid and mature market this wouldn't happen. In contrast, the demand for PTS should have increased since I3 who is behind did everything correctly. But this didn't happen. People are speculating too much all the time and this is no good.In the past investors would keep their stocks for 7 years. Nowdays, nobody keep their investment more than 7 months and in cryptocurrencies time is much much lesser.

Bitcoin millionaires are millionaires because they believed in Bitcoin and were not selling their BTCs. I though that this should have happened with PTS, but unfortunatelly I was wrong...

Other than that I agree with all your reasoning. Unfortunatelly I know nothing about mining and I definitelly have a lot to learn about cryptocurrencies. I am strangling to understand as much as possible but it is really difficult for an average investor with no much IT knowledge to follow up. You guys are able to see and analyse valuable data and information that most people can't. I will get there eventually...After all if you don't pay you don't learn...

well people have less reason to keep their PTS currently, as there is no market driven data that would lend more value to it... supply and demand... this happens ALL the time in the stock market...

people buy and sell stocks constantly based upon future outlooks... if stocks traded for what the company was worth today, as in, they would be 30x less expensive to purchase... but folks are betting on the future and where the company will go... today right now, invictus has no announcement as to when the next DAC will come out... for an invester that means your money, is sitting there not "working" for you at the moment... its in limbo... you would make more profit putting it in other places that are creating an increased value... the value has already been realized with PTS today...

now when invictus announces, hey guys we're taking a snapshot onnnnn lets make up a date of July 4th... investors will want to get ahead of that, some sooner, some later, depending where their money is working for them today and generating more or less revenue for them... those getting little return someplace else, will be likely to buy in early to maximize their returns since their money is doing little for them now... those making good gains someplace else will come to the game late as they are already making profits... this is the natural rise and fall of all markets...

in a good year the orange crop has so many oranges, and not enough demand the price goes down per orange... in a bad year, people still want orange juice, but there are less oranges on the trees, so demand rises and prices do as well... so we all know when growing season is, and during growing season we can see how the crops are turning out and speculate on final results... this is like the buildup before the harvest... now after the harvest, there are no oranges on the trees... so prices drop or rise as we're already on to next years crops and speculations, but in the meantime, does it make sense to hold on to them... well that depends on a few things... did the value of orange shares drop so much, its worth the risk to hold on to them for next years crop, or did you profit so much from the orange shares it makes sense to sell them, because its unlikely for the next 6 months the number will be any higher?

I'm trying to think of a good way to explain it, and since I'm having orange juice right now, thats the best...

P.S. this is also more complex because the value has been split among two different shares now... PTS and BTS... so one may over time hold more value than the other... only time will tell how each is developed upon...
« Last Edit: March 03, 2014, 02:30:42 am by Darkbane »

38PTSWarrior

  • Guest
Re: Price
« Reply #38 on: March 03, 2014, 02:21:49 am »
Quote
Well I do not intend to offend you, but I think you need to learn more about investing and market reactions in supply/demand... we were all informed for several weeks there would be a snapshot taken on february 28th... so by setting such a deadline for the reward of BTS, there will be a natural increase in demand as people want to be apart of that, and naturally once the snapshot is taken, there is no longer a reason for them to hold on to PTS with this method of investing... so they immediately started selling off before demand dropped and prices as well dropped with it...

I believed that people would want to keep their PTS as this supposed to be an asset that will give you dividends in future DACs. It is not like I3 promissed something and didn't deliver, lied or did something wrong to affect the price so dramatically. This was like when Baidu stopped to accept BTCs or Gox bankrupted...I think that in a more liquid and mature market this wouldn't happen. In contrast, the demand for PTS should have increased since I3 who is behind did everything correctly. But this didn't happen. People are speculating too much all the time and this is no good.In the past investors would keep their stocks for 7 years. Nowdays, nobody keep their investment more than 7 months and in cryptocurrencies time is much much lesser.

Bitcoin millionaires are millionaires because they believed in Bitcoin and were not selling their BTCs. I though that this should have happened with PTS, but unfortunatelly I was wrong...

Other than that I agree with all your reasoning. Unfortunatelly I know nothing about mining and I definitelly have a lot to learn about cryptocurrencies. I am strangling to understand as much as possible but it is really difficult for an average investor with no much IT knowledge to follow up. You guys are able to see and analyse valuable data and information that most people can't. I will get there eventually...After all if you don't pay you don't learn...

Hi Zeus, I believe this bingo thing is coming soon. Maybe without advertising it so we will be the winners.

Offline Darkbane

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 119
    • View Profile
Re: Price
« Reply #37 on: March 03, 2014, 02:15:20 am »
Just curious, would it be legal for me to issue a security like "This certificate is worth $100 if toast chooses option A, and $50 if toast chooses option B. Toast will just decide whatever he feels like on date XX."? Would it be legal for me to trade this?

well this is so generic of a question its not possible to answer it but with more questions really...

if you're saying toast could issue a security, without a fixed price on the date its issued, I would say no because that violates securities rules to modify the terms of the security issued after... because you've already assigned it a value of $100 or $50 ahead of time when you chose which option... so you can't retract after issued and redefine the price... market conditions and demand can redefine its value higher or lower, but you can't change it after issued...

now if you're doing what they do for say an IPO, and underwriters solicit investors ahead of the issuance date, today they could be offered $100 or $50 like you suggest, but the day its issued it has a fixed price when its issued date a month later lets say (a completely different price than $100 or $50)... now in some places the group registered to solicit can accept money ahead of time before a final price is issued, however depending on the scenario several things can occur that would result in a complete refund, a partial refund, extra shares issued to them, or a combination of... in some instances they issue a pre-market price which people will buy rights to purchase ahead of issuance, and then once the issuance date is reached that price may be higher or lower than the speculated price when bought...

there are so many various scenarios that could apply...

but I think if your question is, can I issue something today, then next week declare it has no value... no...

Offline mf-tzo

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1725
    • View Profile
Re: Price
« Reply #36 on: March 03, 2014, 02:05:30 am »
Quote
Well I do not intend to offend you, but I think you need to learn more about investing and market reactions in supply/demand... we were all informed for several weeks there would be a snapshot taken on february 28th... so by setting such a deadline for the reward of BTS, there will be a natural increase in demand as people want to be apart of that, and naturally once the snapshot is taken, there is no longer a reason for them to hold on to PTS with this method of investing... so they immediately started selling off before demand dropped and prices as well dropped with it...

I believed that people would want to keep their PTS as this supposed to be an asset that will give you dividends in future DACs. It is not like I3 promissed something and didn't deliver, lied or did something wrong to affect the price so dramatically. This was like when Baidu stopped to accept BTCs or Gox bankrupted...I think that in a more liquid and mature market this wouldn't happen. In contrast, the demand for PTS should have increased since I3 who is behind did everything correctly. But this didn't happen. People are speculating too much all the time and this is no good.In the past investors would keep their stocks for 7 years. Nowdays, nobody keep their investment more than 7 months and in cryptocurrencies time is much much lesser.

Bitcoin millionaires are millionaires because they believed in Bitcoin and were not selling their BTCs. I though that this should have happened with PTS, but unfortunatelly I was wrong...

Other than that I agree with all your reasoning. Unfortunatelly I know nothing about mining and I definitelly have a lot to learn about cryptocurrencies. I am strangling to understand as much as possible but it is really difficult for an average investor with no much IT knowledge to follow up. You guys are able to see and analyse valuable data and information that most people can't. I will get there eventually...After all if you don't pay you don't learn...






Offline mf-tzo

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1725
    • View Profile
Re: Price
« Reply #35 on: March 03, 2014, 01:36:40 am »
I am also a long term holder but unfortunatelly I discovered Bitcoin only last summer and consequently I did not participate in the Bitcoin party, I have less funds to invest than most people in here...Consequently I am trying to increase my position by doing some more active trading and apparently after the snapshot that didn't go very well :(... If I had seen this drop I could have sold all my PTS and I would have bought twice much PTS today and therefore I would have been in a very nice position..Today I sold all my BTCs and any other alt coins I had just to get some more PTS...I still believe in my investment and I am confident that in the long term I will not lose. I believe that by investing in PTS I invest in brilliand minds who will change the future!

After reading more today, I saw that this price drop was expected. And therefore I take full responsibility of my actions. The communication in the forum was signaling that this would happen. However, since one can not read all the posts, it would be nice if some information about this was sent by an email to the existing emailing list. Especially the video about the future DACs explained in a very good way that  a significant price drop was expected and the reason for that.Unfortunatelly I saw the video a bit too late...

The main question now is how much more down will the PTS price go? What are your estimations? If the next release is next year and honors only 10% of PTS and 10% of AGS holders then am I wrong to assume that PTS price can go down to $1?
If the next release is within the next couple of months, I think it is fair to assume that this is the bottom and will soon pick up?

Again, what I writte here do not intend to offend anyone. I am just trying to have a better idea about all these as I am very newbie in cryptocurrencies and how the prices are moving...I don't want to be the only idiot keep buying PTS when everyone else is obviously selling...

Since this discussion talks about the price of PTS it would be nice to hear some estimations from the community and the developers. Where do you see the PTS price for example in 1,2,6,12,36 months?









Offline toast

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4001
    • View Profile
  • BitShares: nikolai
Re: Price
« Reply #34 on: March 03, 2014, 01:16:47 am »
Just curious, would it be legal for me to issue a security like "This certificate is worth $100 if toast chooses option A, and $50 if toast chooses option B. Toast will just decide whatever he feels like on date XX."? Would it be legal for me to trade this?
Do not use this post as information for making any important decisions. The only agreements I ever make are informal and non-binding. Take the same precautions as when dealing with a compromised account, scammer, sockpuppet, etc.