Author Topic: Price  (Read 20846 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline bytemaster

Re: Price
« Reply #63 on: March 07, 2014, 05:58:01 pm »
Actually it wouldn't be like a buy back because pts would just become a commodity in the ags pool.  We would be speculators with ags funds.   


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
For the latest updates checkout my blog: http://bytemaster.bitshares.org
Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract between myself and anyone else.   These are merely my opinions and I reserve the right to change them at any time.

Offline donkeypong

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2329
    • View Profile
Re: Price
« Reply #62 on: March 07, 2014, 04:44:32 pm »
Fine, fair enough. But it's not taboo, though, for publicly traded companies to buy back stock. It usually sends up the price. That, in essence, is what they would be doing.

sumantso

  • Guest
Re: Price
« Reply #61 on: March 07, 2014, 08:22:47 am »
They have said that when the time is right, they will act to protect the PTS price. Right now, I'm buying as much as I can...great opportunity.

They will think about protecting the price after a lot of discussions (since  market manipulation is a huge taboo) if the PTS becomes riculously low, low 0.00001 BTC or something.

Offline isza

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 22
    • View Profile
Re: Price
« Reply #60 on: March 07, 2014, 08:07:30 am »
Is this still a price discussion?  :P

I think the price of PTS will go up in the feature, or maybe down. It is also possible that it will stay.

Offline donkeypong

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2329
    • View Profile
Re: Price
« Reply #59 on: March 06, 2014, 08:12:48 pm »
They have said that when the time is right, they will act to protect the PTS price. Right now, I'm buying as much as I can...great opportunity.

Offline barwizi

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 764
  • Noirbits, NoirShares, NoirEx.....lol, noir anyone?
    • View Profile
    • Noirbitstalk.org
Re: Price
« Reply #58 on: March 05, 2014, 07:07:18 pm »
Is this still a price discussion?  :P
--Bar--  PiNEJGUv4AZVZkLuF6hV4xwbYTRp5etWWJ

The magical land of crypto, no freebies people.

Offline luckybit

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2921
    • View Profile
  • BitShares: Luckybit
Re: Price
« Reply #57 on: March 05, 2014, 11:56:20 am »
Lots of good ideas being generated in multiple threads right now.. Anyone want to curate?

* move % of angel funds to community multi-sig
* offer bounty for first non-I3 DAC

I think instead of just thinking about "Angelfunds" we should just develop Awardshares as an idea. Let it be a community controlled pool via multi-sig. We vote on the winner to receive the Awardshares. The Awardshares could include any cryptoassets we put into the pool but primarily at this time it should be Angelshares. This way there is flexibility so that in the future should some DACs have shares which a lot of people want or which can be used as an incentive we could put them in the pool.

Awardshares would allow any current or future DAC creator to feed some of their valuable shares into a community controlled pool. Then you would have a list of DACs and a PoS voting system so that the community can vote on the winner. Some criteria should be something which is automatic and which cannot be disputed.

So whether or not a DAC is profitable is not something we should vote on. We should try to find some technical means of measuring the profitability of a DAC and then turn that into a data feed which produces a true or false or a number in the form of a percent. Then the DACs with the highest percent should rise to the top of the list. So the data set could be the top 5 most profitable DACs of 2015, and then let people vote on which DAC is their favorite and speculate by prediction markets which DACs will win the battle of the DACs or the DAC of the year award.

This way you get PoS shareholder feedback, but you also get some data from a data feed which needs no voting. The real question is how to measure profitability? We could make Coinmarketcap and several sites like it a data feed but is that really the right way to go about it?

If consensus can be reached on what is the most profitable, and on what success is, yet there is room for preference to be included, I think it will work great.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2014, 12:00:21 pm by luckybit »
https://metaexchange.info | Bitcoin<->Altcoin exchange | Instant | Safe | Low spreads

Offline luckybit

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2921
    • View Profile
  • BitShares: Luckybit
Re: Price
« Reply #56 on: March 05, 2014, 11:34:11 am »
Now sure would be a good time to take some of those angelshares funds and create a big bounty that is paid to the first successful dac to pass xx% profitability for its token holders, honor PTS/AGS with 10% each and survive 6 months.  Then it would be *obvious* that PTS will have value in the future, whereas right now honestly who knows.  In the video it said that Bitshares Music was currently in development but when I spoke to the invictus folks it sounded like they were thinking early 2015 as a reasonable guess. 

This seems like an exceptionally good use of AGS funds as it adds value to the ecosystem and provides a very attractive reason for people to develop for invictus based technologies and honor the 'invisible hand' social contract vs. picking one of the literally seven other protocols that are tackling this same broad problem.   Invictus does not exist in a vacuum, but it's developing like it's in one.   Don't define the tech or specifics as has been done with bounties to the point, just define the outcome you want and let the market participants self organize into the winning combination.'
  +5%

How will you distribute this bounty?

Here is an idea. Award the bounty according to the stake proportion shareholders have in the winning DAC. Since none of us would know which DAC would be the winning DAC you'd end up with a lottery effect where we buy shares in the DACs we think will be the winning DAC.

So if for example you make a DAC, now I'll buy shares in your DAC and will work hard to help your DAC be successfully profitable so that we all can have the award distributed in proportion to the amount of shares we own in your DAC. If I own a lot of shares in your DAC then I'd of course deserve most of the credit for the success if your DAC wins the award.

The same way Angelshares were mapped to PTS, Angelshares could be mapped to the shares of your DAC. The shareholders of the winning DAC would wake up one day to find that their shares have inherited an award of bonus Angelshares mapped to their shares in some proportional ratio. In the future the businesses in the ecosystem could sweeten the pot by adding shares of their own to the award pool.

Simply put, I support the idea of having a bounty for this. I just think the bounty shouldn't go to individuals but should be distributed proportionally to the winning shareholders because that is a way to get people to buy shares in hopes of winning the Angelshare bonus (or whatever future reward bonuses that go beyond this), it also would make people work really hard to make the DACs profitable to win the shareholder bonuses.

Nothing would stop us down the road if multiple DACs are successful from pooling the awards in such a way that the pot gets sweeter for DACs that come along later. Maybe instead of just winning Angelshares maybe the DACs of 2015 could win Awardshares in different DACs according to the innovation or technical problems they solve for the ecosystem.

The Awardshares would be used as an incentive to drive innovation and we could have a top 5 list with the top 5 DACs in some category all winning some awards.

Awardshares would function like bonuses or higher salaries for all participants. This would encourage everyone to participate in making DACs a success because eventually the potential for Awardshares would be so huge that everyone would want to get involved.

The social contract says 10% for Angelshares and 10% for Protoshares. That would mean 80% remains. If 10% were to be for Awardshares then the DAC creators could award these shares at their discretion to other DACs provided that criteria is put in place, voted on democratically by the community, and that the shares are held in some sort of escrow so that once the community votes on the winners the shares are automatically distributed without much human involvement. It should be automatic that the winning DAC gets the Awardshares held in the pool, escrow, or whatever.



« Last Edit: March 05, 2014, 11:48:37 am by luckybit »
https://metaexchange.info | Bitcoin<->Altcoin exchange | Instant | Safe | Low spreads

Offline Stan

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2908
  • You need to think BIGGER, Pinky...
    • View Profile
    • Cryptonomex
  • BitShares: Stan
Re: Price
« Reply #55 on: March 04, 2014, 01:55:31 am »
What?
The price represents the current market valuation. At every moment in the future, the price will reflect the market valuation at that moment. You want I3 to prop it up somehow by infusing it with even more value? You want the market value to be higher than the market value. Did you buy PTS on wrong assumptions about what it represents or something? There's no deadline for DAC proposals...

Quote
Unless they release a product favoring PTS soon or ask a third party to do so, then PTS may not recover, else it will recover when they finally get round to it, but it will be temporary and after that it will drop beyond redemption.

"PTS will drop and not recover unless it recovers before then".

I think the point is, this is another symptom of the failure to communicate even basic messaging.  PTS *should* be very valuable, arguably more valuable now that Invictus has proven (ostensibly) that this vehicle can actually deliver a new, unique blockchain product and therefore they'll do it again.

But the only messaging I saw threw out a bunch of ideas, the majority of which they don't think they'll build this year because Bitshares itself will take so much time, so outside help is needed and a high value contest (bounty) is most appropriate IMO given the variables in this situation.  You promote the contest through various channels, it brings in new developers and people who want to see what the developers are building, you spend no time and a fixed amount of resources for a variable and increasing (if you do it right) number of participants and work.

Do you mean 3rd party DACs? Otherwise it's almost certain they'd pay that reward to themselves for BTS X or BTS DNS.

I don't think BTS products should count

+ 1
+5%

We would love to fund a credible third party to implement any viable DAC idea whether one of theirs or one of our own.  That's the whole point of the Shark Tank competition proposal.  So far we are still waiting for inquiries from would-be contestants.

Since we are not claiming any profit from AGS sources, the concept of a "reward for ourselves" has no meaning.  We are happy to pay an employee, a contractor, a consultant, a bounty hunter, a new start-up, or a third-party developer to put more DACs in the pipeline.  We'll use talent wherever we can find it.  The biggest limit we have to deployment of new DACs is finding qualified people of any type that are capable of pulling it off with our strong support - all kinds of support - as outlined in the February newsletter.

« Last Edit: March 04, 2014, 05:18:39 am by Stan »
Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract of any kind.   These are merely my opinions which I reserve the right to change at any time.

Offline toast

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4001
    • View Profile
  • BitShares: nikolai
Re: Price
« Reply #54 on: March 04, 2014, 12:55:50 am »
Lots of good ideas being generated in multiple threads right now.. Anyone want to curate?

* move % of angel funds to community multi-sig
* offer bounty for first non-I3 DAC
Do not use this post as information for making any important decisions. The only agreements I ever make are informal and non-binding. Take the same precautions as when dealing with a compromised account, scammer, sockpuppet, etc.

Offline unimercio

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 245
  • The opportunity of a lifetime comes by every 7 day
    • View Profile
    • Conscious Entrepreneurship Foundation (CEF)
  • BitShares: unimercio
Re: Price
« Reply #53 on: March 04, 2014, 12:37:29 am »
What?
The price represents the current market valuation. At every moment in the future, the price will reflect the market valuation at that moment. You want I3 to prop it up somehow by infusing it with even more value? You want the market value to be higher than the market value. Did you buy PTS on wrong assumptions about what it represents or something? There's no deadline for DAC proposals...

Quote
Unless they release a product favoring PTS soon or ask a third party to do so, then PTS may not recover, else it will recover when they finally get round to it, but it will be temporary and after that it will drop beyond redemption.

"PTS will drop and not recover unless it recovers before then".

I think the point is, this is another symptom of the failure to communicate even basic messaging.  PTS *should* be very valuable, arguably more valuable now that Invictus has proven (ostensibly) that this vehicle can actually deliver a new, unique blockchain product and therefore they'll do it again.

But the only messaging I saw threw out a bunch of ideas, the majority of which they don't think they'll build this year because Bitshares itself will take so much time, so outside help is needed and a high value contest (bounty) is most appropriate IMO given the variables in this situation.  You promote the contest through various channels, it brings in new developers and people who want to see what the developers are building, you spend no time and a fixed amount of resources for a variable and increasing (if you do it right) number of participants and work.

Do you mean 3rd party DACs? Otherwise it's almost certain they'd pay that reward to themselves for BTS X or BTS DNS.

I don't think BTS products should count

+ 1
+5%
Conscious Entrepreneurship Foundation (CEF)

Offline barwizi

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 764
  • Noirbits, NoirShares, NoirEx.....lol, noir anyone?
    • View Profile
    • Noirbitstalk.org
Re: Price
« Reply #52 on: March 03, 2014, 04:48:51 pm »
What?
The price represents the current market valuation. At every moment in the future, the price will reflect the market valuation at that moment. You want I3 to prop it up somehow by infusing it with even more value? You want the market value to be higher than the market value. Did you buy PTS on wrong assumptions about what it represents or something? There's no deadline for DAC proposals...

Quote
Unless they release a product favoring PTS soon or ask a third party to do so, then PTS may not recover, else it will recover when they finally get round to it, but it will be temporary and after that it will drop beyond redemption.

"PTS will drop and not recover unless it recovers before then".

I think the point is, this is another symptom of the failure to communicate even basic messaging.  PTS *should* be very valuable, arguably more valuable now that Invictus has proven (ostensibly) that this vehicle can actually deliver a new, unique blockchain product and therefore they'll do it again.

But the only messaging I saw threw out a bunch of ideas, the majority of which they don't think they'll build this year because Bitshares itself will take so much time, so outside help is needed and a high value contest (bounty) is most appropriate IMO given the variables in this situation.  You promote the contest through various channels, it brings in new developers and people who want to see what the developers are building, you spend no time and a fixed amount of resources for a variable and increasing (if you do it right) number of participants and work.

Do you mean 3rd party DACs? Otherwise it's almost certain they'd pay that reward to themselves for BTS X or BTS DNS.

I don't think BTS products should count

+ 1
--Bar--  PiNEJGUv4AZVZkLuF6hV4xwbYTRp5etWWJ

The magical land of crypto, no freebies people.

Offline zvs

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 193
    • View Profile
Re: Price
« Reply #51 on: March 03, 2014, 04:11:28 pm »
I don't want to complain about the huge price drop, since I am still a believer and support I3.

But... I am a long term investor and I am following from the beggining and I didn't see that happening...I thought that there would be some price stability in the price of PTS and not such a huge drop. If I3 knew that this was going to happen, for example if I3 sold PTS like crazy after the snapshot, I think that some advice or warning should have been sent to people who are following from the start in order to protect our shareholdings by selling also and then re-bying low now.

At this point I feel that even since I am here from the beggining I didn't make any profit and later investors coming in now have almost the same advantages as my self. Sure I will get XTS where others won't but with this drop in price I could have cashed some profits and then re-invest. Or do we expect the price to go even lower than that?

I believe that if I3 wants to keep the investors investing in them should send us some opinions, advices or signals of what they think is going to follow. An email like the nice reports that we receive from time to time would have been nice. Not everyone here read the reddit articles...

And I don't think that this would fall under inside information, but rather just an advice for the preservation of the purchase power of the initial investors. Every company sends reports to their clients and to their investors with opinions and advices. They ofcourse writte a disclaimer but they do send out warnings and reports. 

Anyway, I don't want to complain anymore..I should have known better and I should have probably foresee that this would happen...It is just ennoying and makes me think to be more carefull in the future. Every time that there is a new release and the snapshot is taken everyone is going to sell like crazy...This in my opinion creates an instability and uncertainty to people who want to be long term investors..

I appologise in advance if I offended anyone.This is not my intention.It is a free market and everyone is responsible for his actions!

If you held PTS or AGS on Feb 28th you made a huge gain when you consider the combined value of both BitShares PTS and BitShares X.  You still own the future of all Invictus potential in PTS/AGS and you have realized concrete proof of that potential in the release of your first tangible dividend with BitShares X.  But there's more: BitShares X has advanced one stage closer to reality.  Risk has been reduced which means its expected value has jumped.  Delivery of BitShares X increases the value of BitShares PTS because there is now a precedent and people can see how the whole ecosystem works.

We are working to optimize the long term value of this entire industry, not any one component.  If you want to speculate on near-term fluctuations, that is fine but we don't take actions to optimize short-term results. 

This advance-notice article was highlighted multiple times for multiple days here on the forum:

http://letstalkbitcoin.com/caution-watch-for-falling-pts/#.UxQIi_SwLCc

Our ability to publish this information in easily consumable form everywhere is a finite resource.  I wish we could reach out and explain it to each community member individually, but that is obviously not possible.   We rely on people to do their part - which is to keep up with what we release.

Those who put in the extra time to study what we were able to release were totally informed and profited greatly.

If proof of work mining is considered a fair way to distribute shares, then a simple 10 minutes a day using Google to mine available information is another reasonable way "earn" a piece of the gains.  Or simply reading all the posts by "Stan" would cause you to encounter every important needle in the haystack.  I don't write more per day than everyone should be able to read.

Knowledge and understanding is the ultimate proof of work.  Those who did this minimum amount of homework now have that knowledge and deserve their reward even more than those who let their computers do all the work in mining some altcoin du jour.

The information you need is there to be mined. 
The proof is that many people did achieve this level of understanding.


Oh, ffs, I knew exactly what was happening.  Many exchanges did not. 

Why don't you make an 'approved' list of exchanges, that are actually told exactly wtf is going on?  Cryptsy didn't even have a clue.
Pls to join Primedice 3 and frolic about merrily whilst gambling awe-inspiring quantities of bitcoins. The power of Christ compels you.

I have a dogecoin p2pool at Nogleg.

Offline AdamBLevine

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 492
    • View Profile
    • Let's Talk Bitcoin!
Re: Price
« Reply #50 on: March 03, 2014, 03:20:37 pm »
What?
The price represents the current market valuation. At every moment in the future, the price will reflect the market valuation at that moment. You want I3 to prop it up somehow by infusing it with even more value? You want the market value to be higher than the market value. Did you buy PTS on wrong assumptions about what it represents or something? There's no deadline for DAC proposals...

Quote
Unless they release a product favoring PTS soon or ask a third party to do so, then PTS may not recover, else it will recover when they finally get round to it, but it will be temporary and after that it will drop beyond redemption.

"PTS will drop and not recover unless it recovers before then".

I think the point is, this is another symptom of the failure to communicate even basic messaging.  PTS *should* be very valuable, arguably more valuable now that Invictus has proven (ostensibly) that this vehicle can actually deliver a new, unique blockchain product and therefore they'll do it again.

But the only messaging I saw threw out a bunch of ideas, the majority of which they don't think they'll build this year because Bitshares itself will take so much time, so outside help is needed and a high value contest (bounty) is most appropriate IMO given the variables in this situation.  You promote the contest through various channels, it brings in new developers and people who want to see what the developers are building, you spend no time and a fixed amount of resources for a variable and increasing (if you do it right) number of participants and work.

Do you mean 3rd party DACs? Otherwise it's almost certain they'd pay that reward to themselves for BTS X or BTS DNS.

I don't think BTS products should count
Email me at adam@letstalkbitcoin.com

Offline toast

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4001
    • View Profile
  • BitShares: nikolai
Re: Price
« Reply #49 on: March 03, 2014, 03:02:21 pm »
Do you mean 3rd party DACs? Otherwise it's almost certain they'd pay that reward to themselves for BTS X or BTS DNS.
Do not use this post as information for making any important decisions. The only agreements I ever make are informal and non-binding. Take the same precautions as when dealing with a compromised account, scammer, sockpuppet, etc.