Author Topic: Honoring AGS  (Read 4998 times)

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Offline toast

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Honoring AGS
« on: May 23, 2014, 02:26:25 pm »
Very cool! Good job. Thoughts:

1) Non-proportional awards for DOGE and BTC... Dogecoin's about to get dusted!
2) Secure distributed RNG, I'm pretty sure Denny's DPOS approach solves that. Any plans to play nice regarding possible name collisions? I'm sure you would not appreciate it if he called his "LottoShares 2.0"
3) Not honoring AGS... Might be reasonable if you're making a point about how they didn't give you any funds, but the point is the distribution list and not shows of allegiance. I don't think a fork is a threat because of Denny's lotto DAC and there is no precedent to show AGS is a good target.
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Offline sudo

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Re: Honoring AGS
« Reply #1 on: May 23, 2014, 03:31:23 pm »
Very cool! Good job. Thoughts:

1) Non-proportional awards for DOGE and BTC... Dogecoin's about to get dusted!
2) Secure distributed RNG, I'm pretty sure Denny's DPOS approach solves that. Any plans to play nice regarding possible name collisions? I'm sure you would not appreciate it if he called his "LottoShares 2.0"
3) Not honoring AGS... Might be reasonable if you're making a point about how they didn't give you any funds, but the point is the distribution list and not shows of allegiance. I don't think a fork is a threat because of Denny's lotto DAC and there is no precedent to show AGS is a good target.

Not honoring AGS

maybe  he  think  DOGE BTC PTS  helps him much   :o

Offline xeroc

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Re: Honoring AGS
« Reply #2 on: May 23, 2014, 03:36:52 pm »
full support of this community comes at a cost of 10%/10% ags/pts ..

Besides that: its about the perfect time for a decentr. Blochchainbased betting scheme as yours .. good luck ...

Anyway .. please consider 10% for ags. ... please!
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Offline FreeTrade

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Re: Honoring AGS
« Reply #3 on: May 23, 2014, 03:57:52 pm »
Very cool! Good job. Thoughts:

1) Non-proportional awards for DOGE and BTC... Dogecoin's about to get dusted!
2) Secure distributed RNG, I'm pretty sure Denny's DPOS approach solves that. Any plans to play nice regarding possible name collisions? I'm sure you would not appreciate it if he called his "LottoShares 2.0"
3) Not honoring AGS... Might be reasonable if you're making a point about how they didn't give you any funds, but the point is the distribution list and not shows of allegiance. I don't think a fork is a threat because of Denny's lotto DAC and there is no precedent to show AGS is a good target.

1. The BTC and DOGE block distribution points have already passed.
2. I don't think it solves the problem sufficiently for very large prizes - not sure about name collisions - he seems to be calling it Lotto Dapp . . i've got the lottoshares.org domain and google says 'No results found for +lottoshares'
3. I'm not making any point here, certainly not expecting any funds from AGS. I haven't had any involvement with AGS so it doesn't feel appropriate to distribute shares to AGS holders. My involvement is with MMC and PTS so want to ensure those holders are supported. The intention with BTC and DOGE is to get a free lottery ticket into everyone's hands for maximum involvement.

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Offline toast

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Re: Honoring AGS
« Reply #4 on: May 23, 2014, 04:02:03 pm »
Very cool! Good job. Thoughts:

1) Non-proportional awards for DOGE and BTC... Dogecoin's about to get dusted!
2) Secure distributed RNG, I'm pretty sure Denny's DPOS approach solves that. Any plans to play nice regarding possible name collisions? I'm sure you would not appreciate it if he called his "LottoShares 2.0"
3) Not honoring AGS... Might be reasonable if you're making a point about how they didn't give you any funds, but the point is the distribution list and not shows of allegiance. I don't think a fork is a threat because of Denny's lotto DAC and there is no precedent to show AGS is a good target.

1. The BTC and DOGE block distribution points have already passed.
2. I don't think it solves the problem sufficiently for very large prizes - not sure about name collisions - he seems to be calling it Lotto Dapp . . i've got the lottoshares.org domain and google says 'No results found for +lottoshares'
3. I'm not making any point here, certainly not expecting any funds from AGS. I haven't had any involvement with AGS so it doesn't feel appropriate to distribute shares to AGS holders. My involvement is with MMC and PTS so want to ensure those holders are supported. The intention with BTC and DOGE is to get a free lottery ticket into everyone's hands for maximum involvement.

For #2 I'm talking about our own Denny Wang aka HackFisher in the "charity" subforum. There are two Denny's lottos =P

#3 - please consider AGS! It makes the difference between begrudging and enthusiastic support from the bitshares community. I think the community support may be worth taking 1/4th of the planned dev premine.
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Offline Stan

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Re: Honoring AGS
« Reply #5 on: May 23, 2014, 04:31:23 pm »
Very cool! Good job. Thoughts:

1) Non-proportional awards for DOGE and BTC... Dogecoin's about to get dusted!
2) Secure distributed RNG, I'm pretty sure Denny's DPOS approach solves that. Any plans to play nice regarding possible name collisions? I'm sure you would not appreciate it if he called his "LottoShares 2.0"
3) Not honoring AGS... Might be reasonable if you're making a point about how they didn't give you any funds, but the point is the distribution list and not shows of allegiance. I don't think a fork is a threat because of Denny's lotto DAC and there is no precedent to show AGS is a good target.

1. The BTC and DOGE block distribution points have already passed.
2. I don't think it solves the problem sufficiently for very large prizes - not sure about name collisions - he seems to be calling it Lotto Dapp . . i've got the lottoshares.org domain and google says 'No results found for +lottoshares'
3. I'm not making any point here, certainly not expecting any funds from AGS. I haven't had any involvement with AGS so it doesn't feel appropriate to distribute shares to AGS holders. My involvement is with MMC and PTS so want to ensure those holders are supported. The intention with BTC and DOGE is to get a free lottery ticket into everyone's hands for maximum involvement.

For #2 I'm talking about our own Denny Wang aka HackFisher in the "charity" subforum. There are two Denny's lottos =P

#3 - please consider AGS! It makes the difference between begrudging and enthusiastic support from the bitshares community. I think the community support may be worth taking 1/4th of the planned dev premine.

Thanks for all you are doing and for honoring PTS!

Honoring AGS also would free us up to include promoting your DAC as part of our media blitz planned to coincide with our big summer-long DAC coming out party.  We are promoting an industry, not one company, and are delighted to promote any third party DACs that the BitShares Social Consensus allows us to support.   

Possible synergies abound!   Joint interviews and videos that people will consume just because they are joint interviews and videos, for example.  You can be a part of every promotion we produce that talks about the Summer Cambrian Explosion of DACs.  Let us bask in each others brilliance!  The whole can be greater than the sum of its parts!

While Denny's DACs and your DACs may look like competitors, the real competitors are established on-line gaming businesses.  You and Denny will drive more awareness to each other's DACs than you will take away from each other.  It's the same reason competing car dealers and hardware stores tend to cluster on the same street.  Get the traffic to come to your neighborhood and then compete!


Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract of any kind.   These are merely my opinions which I reserve the right to change at any time.

Offline bitmeat

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Re: Honoring AGS
« Reply #6 on: May 23, 2014, 05:01:09 pm »
I might buy a bit of MMC, but unless AGS is honored I would not invest too much. I would like to see FreeTrade respecting what the community wants. Seriously consider it!

MMC already had a bad rep due to social contract not being respected. FreeTrade, if you honor both PTS and AGS, I bet you will get a lot more out of it than you are giving away.

Offline FreeTrade

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Re: Honoring AGS
« Reply #7 on: May 23, 2014, 05:22:23 pm »
Thanks for all you are doing and for honoring PTS!

Honoring AGS also would free us up to include promoting your DAC as part of our media blitz planned to coincide with our big summer-long DAC coming out party.  We are promoting an industry, not one company, and are delighted to promote any third party DACs that the BitShares Social Consensus allows us to support.   

Possible synergies abound!   Joint interviews and videos that people will consume just because they are joint interviews and videos, for example.  You can be a part of every promotion we produce that talks about the Summer Cambrian Explosion of DACs.  Let us bask in each others brilliance!  The whole can be greater than the sum of its parts!

While Denny's DACs and your DACs may look like competitors, the real competitors are established on-line gaming businesses.  You and Denny will drive more awareness to each other's DACs than you will take away from each other.  It's the same reason competing car dealers and hardware stores tend to cluster on the same street.  Get the traffic to come to your neighborhood and then compete!

Thanks Stan. I agree with your point about synergies, and I hope LottoShares will be a stepping stone to help altcoiners understand the DAC concept.

Regarding AGS, I do feel that the 'BitShares Social Consensus' has been subject to 'proportion creep'. The 10% distribution initially suggested with the launch of PTS seemed fair to me and a workable model, and AGS seems like a reasonable way for I3 to raise funds for in-house projects, but a 20% distribution from 3rd party BSD licensed DACs seems excessive. I'd probably feel differently if I was using I3's code from the start - but I'm not.
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Offline bitmeat

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Re: Honoring AGS
« Reply #8 on: May 23, 2014, 05:28:02 pm »
You allocated 40% for things like marketing. It's not all about the code. Why not work with Stan and see what win win scenarios there might be in honoring AGS? Don't be stubborn, that's one reason MMC didn't do so well.

Offline Agent86

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Re: Honoring AGS
« Reply #9 on: May 23, 2014, 05:37:36 pm »

Thanks for all you are doing and for honoring PTS!

Honoring AGS also would free us up to include promoting your DAC as part of our media blitz planned to coincide with our big summer-long DAC coming out party. 

I think this could be a cool project and would definitely get behind it if it honored AGS.

We might run into problems promoting it as a DAC if it's not really Decentralized and Autonomous.  But I think we could promote it as a great project that honors our community consensus.

I don't think there's any obligation here, but I think it would generate a lot of good will and we're a cool community!  Please consider it Freetrade!! :)

Offline santaclause102

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Re: Honoring AGS
« Reply #10 on: May 23, 2014, 05:42:15 pm »

Thanks for all you are doing and for honoring PTS!

Honoring AGS also would free us up to include promoting your DAC as part of our media blitz planned to coincide with our big summer-long DAC coming out party. 

I think this could be a cool project and would definitely get behind it if it honored AGS.

We might run into problems promoting it as a DAC if it's not really Decentralized and Autonomous.  But I think we could promote it as a great project that honors our community consensus.

I don't think there's any obligation here, but I think it would generate a lot of good will and we're a cool community!  Please consider it Freetrade!! :)
+1

Offline JakeThePanda

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Re: Honoring AGS
« Reply #11 on: May 23, 2014, 05:48:53 pm »
Thanks for all you are doing and for honoring PTS!

Honoring AGS also would free us up to include promoting your DAC as part of our media blitz planned to coincide with our big summer-long DAC coming out party.  We are promoting an industry, not one company, and are delighted to promote any third party DACs that the BitShares Social Consensus allows us to support.   

Possible synergies abound!   Joint interviews and videos that people will consume just because they are joint interviews and videos, for example.  You can be a part of every promotion we produce that talks about the Summer Cambrian Explosion of DACs.  Let us bask in each others brilliance!  The whole can be greater than the sum of its parts!

While Denny's DACs and your DACs may look like competitors, the real competitors are established on-line gaming businesses.  You and Denny will drive more awareness to each other's DACs than you will take away from each other.  It's the same reason competing car dealers and hardware stores tend to cluster on the same street.  Get the traffic to come to your neighborhood and then compete!

Thanks Stan. I agree with your point about synergies, and I hope LottoShares will be a stepping stone to help altcoiners understand the DAC concept.

Regarding AGS, I do feel that the 'BitShares Social Consensus' has been subject to 'proportion creep'. The 10% distribution initially suggested with the launch of PTS seemed fair to me and a workable model, and AGS seems like a reasonable way for I3 to raise funds for in-house projects, but a 20% distribution from 3rd party BSD licensed DACs seems excessive. I'd probably feel differently if I was using I3's code from the start - but I'm not.

I appreciate your point of view, but you are giving away 20% to BTC and Doge.  How are you going to communicate the airdrop to all the BTC holders?  BTC ownership has become much more widespread these days.  Most BTC holders probably don't browse bitcointalk and other forums.  It seems like a lot of coins will be wasted when they could have went to a community that is 100% likely to embrace the development and help promote it. 

Just my 2 bitshares.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2014, 05:53:15 pm by JakeThePanda »

Offline toast

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Re: Honoring AGS
« Reply #12 on: May 23, 2014, 05:50:27 pm »
You allocated 40% for things like marketing. It's not all about the code. Why not work with Stan and see what win win scenarios there might be in honoring AGS? Don't be stubborn, that's one reason MMC didn't do so well.

True, I put MMC subforum on ignore because of this.

Between 40% dev premine, 20% to btc, and 20% to doge, I think finding 10% for AGS will only add value.
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Offline tonyk

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Re: Honoring AGS
« Reply #13 on: May 23, 2014, 06:03:50 pm »
Very cool! Good job. Thoughts:
...
3) Not honoring AGS
 

#3 - please consider AGS! It makes the difference between begrudging and enthusiastic support from the bitshares community. I think the community support may be worth taking 1/4th of the planned dev premine.

It is funny how smart people like Nicokai ( **toast**) can easily be lead into wrong thought process and believes.

Here is the simple truth:
Invictus came and said –“The social consensus is AGS should be honored at least 10%”
-First it is not a social consensus it is just private party saying something (i.e. there is no consensus)

-Second it is pretty contradictory/illogical statement – donate X amount to us/me, and expect somebody else to give you shares for this gesture.

-Third, I3 took the AGS money and said they will use it to develop the DAC industry, instead later on they said – “Now that we have the money, we will keep them AS A BACK UP for our salaries for 12 mo.” Even that in those 12 mo. the donor/investors expect(ed) a lot of DACs coming and producing money for those developers salaries…

-Forth, The only logical reason left  to honor AGS holders is for marketing purposes. But this audience is already reached by honoring PTS. There is a very small % of people donating to AGS only through BTC. More than 90% of AGS donors do it through some combination of BTC and PTS (The only notable exception I am aware of is Agent86 who does not have PTS account..., but then again I do not think Agent86 is a real person but rather a second  internet/forum handle  for a real person)
Lack of arbitrage is the problem, isn't it. And this 'should' solves it.

Offline bitmeat

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Re: Honoring AGS
« Reply #14 on: May 23, 2014, 06:08:04 pm »
How AGS is handled is a completely different problem, and I agree with you wholeheartedly, tonyk!

However given that he is giving away 20% to BTC and DOGE, is a huge blow to bitshares community. BTC and DOGE don't give you anything in return either, well perhaps some free marketing.

Offline AdamBLevine

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Re: Honoring AGS
« Reply #15 on: May 23, 2014, 06:23:10 pm »
Very cool! Good job. Thoughts:
...
3) Not honoring AGS
 

#3 - please consider AGS! It makes the difference between begrudging and enthusiastic support from the bitshares community. I think the community support may be worth taking 1/4th of the planned dev premine.

It is funny how smart people like Nicokai ( **toast**) can easily be lead into wrong thought process and believes.

Here is the simple truth:
Invictus came and said –“The social consensus is AGS should be honored at least 10%”
-First it is not a social consensus it is just private party saying something (i.e. there is no consensus)

-Second it is pretty contradictory/illogical statement – donate X amount to us/me, and expect somebody else to give you shares for this gesture.

-Third, I3 took the AGS money and said they will use it to develop the DAC industry, instead later on they said – “Now that we have the money, we will keep them AS A BACK UP for our salaries for 12 mo.” Even that in those 12 mo. the donor/investors expect(ed) a lot of DACs coming and producing money for those developers salaries…

-Forth, The only logical reason left  to honor AGS holders is for marketing purposes. But this audience is already reached by honoring PTS. There is a very small % of people donating to AGS only through BTC. More than 90% of AGS donors do it through some combination of BTC and PTS (The only notable exception I am aware of is Agent86 who does not have PTS account..., but then again I do not think Agent86 is a real person but rather a second  internet/forum handle  for a real person)

yep, it hasn't ever made sense to honor the social contract as currently defined and so in practice we see they don't.  Hopefully this will change once DPOS comes out since thats a wholly new underlying tech, but even then since its open source we're relying on the good will of project catalysts to honor it.   

This is one of the reasons it was so important to build the Bitshares community on these forums, but in practice we've seen activity go down over time so the reason to honor it now is even less than it was four months ago.
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Offline bitmeat

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Re: Honoring AGS
« Reply #16 on: May 23, 2014, 06:31:30 pm »
I think I3 can easily fix that by changing the social contract so that AGS holders get an "option to buy at X price" that way there is incentive to honor the AGS as well as incentive for I3 to support development of the tech. So far Ethereum seems to be closest to what I would expect from a platform, minus the premine they allocated for themselves.

Offline JoeyD

Re: Honoring AGS
« Reply #17 on: May 23, 2014, 06:33:06 pm »
Very cool! Good job. Thoughts:
...
3) Not honoring AGS
 

#3 - please consider AGS! It makes the difference between begrudging and enthusiastic support from the bitshares community. I think the community support may be worth taking 1/4th of the planned dev premine.

It is funny how smart people like Nicokai ( **toast**) can easily be lead into wrong thought process and believes.

Here is the simple truth:
Invictus came and said –“The social consensus is AGS should be honored at least 10%”
-First it is not a social consensus it is just private party saying something (i.e. there is no consensus)

-Second it is pretty contradictory/illogical statement – donate X amount to us/me, and expect somebody else to give you shares for this gesture.

-Third, I3 took the AGS money and said they will use it to develop the DAC industry, instead later on they said – “Now that we have the money, we will keep them AS A BACK UP for our salaries for 12 mo.” Even that in those 12 mo. the donor/investors expect(ed) a lot of DACs coming and producing money for those developers salaries…

-Forth, The only logical reason left  to honor AGS holders is for marketing purposes. But this audience is already reached by honoring PTS. There is a very small % of people donating to AGS only through BTC. More than 90% of AGS donors do it through some combination of BTC and PTS (The only notable exception I am aware of is Agent86 who does not have PTS account..., but then again I do not think Agent86 is a real person but rather a second  internet/forum handle  for a real person)

How did you come to that conclusion about the 90% AGS donators having as much if not more PTS? Not that I'm particularly notable, but I invested through AGS with btc because I thought btc would keep it's value more than PTS and did not see how buying PTS would help pay for development in any way. I do have a pts-wallet and some pts though, but not nearly as much as in ags.

While I agree with your assessment that you can't force people to issue shares, just looking at the 15% pts community response, I'd venture to guess that not honoring ags may not be the best marketing move ever and that looks an awful lot like a social discontentment/consensus contract to me. In the short term I don't see much wriggling room for dac-share-issuers.

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Re: Honoring AGS
« Reply #18 on: May 23, 2014, 06:39:25 pm »
Plus .. we as a community can copy-cat each dac that does not honor the social contract and do better ... starting of with a much larger community ... and this community IS large
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Offline AdamBLevine

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Re: Honoring AGS
« Reply #19 on: May 23, 2014, 06:41:09 pm »
and this community IS large

Quote
Most Online Today: 117. Most Online Ever: 373 (December 05, 2013, 11:28:00 PM) [/color] 
« Last Edit: May 23, 2014, 06:43:12 pm by AdamBLevine »
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Re: Honoring AGS
« Reply #20 on: May 23, 2014, 06:42:59 pm »
and this community IS large

Quote
Most Online Today: 117. Most Online Ever: 373 (December 05, 2013, 11:28:00 PM) [/color]
saying? Oh wait .. there still is a read-only mode for unregistered .. is it?
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Offline Amazon

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Re: Honoring AGS
« Reply #21 on: May 23, 2014, 06:48:26 pm »
and this community IS large

Quote
Most Online Today: 117. Most Online Ever: 373 (December 05, 2013, 11:28:00 PM) [/color]
saying? Oh wait .. there still is a read-only mode for unregistered .. is it?

I think the guest number has been count into the "online number".
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Re: Honoring AGS
« Reply #22 on: May 23, 2014, 06:50:11 pm »
Too bad .. so there are only 373 of us .. This probably will never work :-(
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Offline AdamBLevine

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Re: Honoring AGS
« Reply #23 on: May 23, 2014, 06:50:49 pm »
Yeah its usually like 50/50 guests/registered users

I'm just saying, don't kid yourself - Compared to other communities out there PTS and AGS are very very centralized, most of all with Invictus holding hundreds of thousands of protoshares.
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Re: Honoring AGS
« Reply #24 on: May 23, 2014, 06:53:28 pm »
can you remember when nxt was in this IPO stage. .. i am sure you remember .. what was the difference ... isnt nxt only 6 months old by now?
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Offline santaclause102

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Re: Honoring AGS
« Reply #25 on: May 23, 2014, 06:53:39 pm »
afaik it is the biggest community behind btt. Just compare forum stats...

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Re: Honoring AGS
« Reply #26 on: May 23, 2014, 06:56:06 pm »
unfortunatelly it does not break down to a forum. Afaik the nxtforum was launch a couple weeka ago .. for that, they are pretty big
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Offline santaclause102

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Re: Honoring AGS
« Reply #27 on: May 23, 2014, 06:59:49 pm »
the nxt forum is running since march... I compared it today. Bitshares has more new registered members per day on average.

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Re: Honoring AGS
« Reply #28 on: May 23, 2014, 07:00:56 pm »
Ok .. good to hear
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Offline Amazon

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Re: Honoring AGS
« Reply #29 on: May 23, 2014, 07:06:56 pm »
the nxt forum is running since march... I compared it today. Bitshares has more new registered members per day on average.

Unfortunately, most new registered members are just spam/bots recently. And I have been busy banning those IP.
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Offline tonyk

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Re: Honoring AGS
« Reply #30 on: May 23, 2014, 07:14:33 pm »
While I agree with your assessment that you can't force people to issue shares, just looking at the 15% pts community response, I'd venture to guess that not honoring ags may not be the best marketing move ever and that looks an awful lot like a social discontentment/consensus contract to me. In the short term I don't see much wriggling room for dac-share-issuers.

As of today I have about 3.65x more AGS than PTS as pure # of shares,(which as of right now is  even bigger % of total AGS/PTS respectively, and will be ~3x  at the final numbers (1.65Mil PTS and 2 mil AGS). So my interest is AGS is to be honored… but I am just stating what is the logical step for a DAC developer.
Lack of arbitrage is the problem, isn't it. And this 'should' solves it.

Offline JakeThePanda

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Re: Honoring AGS
« Reply #31 on: May 23, 2014, 08:10:14 pm »
and this community IS large

Quote
Most Online Today: 117. Most Online Ever: 373 (December 05, 2013, 11:28:00 PM) [/color] 

Are sure you invested in AGS/PTS?  It's almost as if you want to see this fail and would take great pleasure in it.

Offline santaclause102

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Re: Honoring AGS
« Reply #32 on: May 23, 2014, 08:18:37 pm »
....thinking about it... there should anyway be due diligence on the side of III which projects are supported. Otherwise I could just create a shit DAC honour AGS/PTS each with 10% and get all the media package Stan suggested. That would be highly profitable.... 

Offline JoeyD

Re: Honoring AGS
« Reply #33 on: May 23, 2014, 08:22:41 pm »
As of today I have about 3.65x more AGS than PTS as pure # of shares,(which as of right now is  even bigger % of total AGS/PTS respectively, and will be ~3x  at the final numbers (1.65Mil PTS and 2 mil AGS). So my interest is AGS is to be honored… but I am just stating what is the logical step for a DAC developer.

I have to admit it is one of the things I was somewhat curious about as well. Since my motivation for donating seems to differ a bit from others, I haven't really taken my time to think about the social concensus part or share distribution. I don't even know how much shares I'm supposed to get. I just wanted to support the development of as many competing chains and blockchain ideas as possible and I abhor the single-central-blockchain ones and especially the ones trying to pull everyone together in the same sphere of influence.

To be brutally honest I wouldn't mind at all if people did start competing with Invictus at their own game and fork the code and experiment with the technology on their own terms. I'm not a fan of the central point of failure model at all, but for now I don't see many other options. Rationally I'd expect people only to buy "shares" in DAC-chains that they are interested in after those DACs are up and running and only for as long as they have a use for it.

It is probably bad of me, but I might as well be upfront with it, eventhough it will hurt my interests plenty, but seeing people expecting to get rich of other peoples efforts by claiming and monopolizing a stake, instead of wanting to use the new DACs, end up with nothing would actually make me feel a whole lot better about the world. It might even instill in me a little confidence that out of all the crypto-blockchain-experiments something might emerge that could actually work, but for now I am not convinced. So from my point of view I don't even see why DAC developers would owe PTS anything and I'm not convinced that pump and dump speculators are even interested in decentralized companies/applications/collaborations and their uses in the first place.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2014, 08:25:44 pm by JoeyD »

Offline JakeThePanda

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Re: Honoring AGS
« Reply #34 on: May 23, 2014, 08:33:06 pm »
As of today I have about 3.65x more AGS than PTS as pure # of shares,(which as of right now is  even bigger % of total AGS/PTS respectively, and will be ~3x  at the final numbers (1.65Mil PTS and 2 mil AGS). So my interest is AGS is to be honored… but I am just stating what is the logical step for a DAC developer.

I have to admit it is one of the things I was somewhat curious about as well. Since my motivation for donating seems to differ a bit from others, I haven't really taken my time to think about the social concensus part or share distribution. I don't even know how much shares I'm supposed to get. I just wanted to support the development of as many competing chains and blockchain ideas as possible and I abhor the single-central-blockchain ones and especially the ones trying to pull everyone together in the same sphere of influence.

To be brutally honest I wouldn't mind at all if people did start competing with Invictus at their own game and fork the code and experiment with the technology on their own terms. I'm not a fan of the central point of failure model at all, but for now I don't see many other options. Rationally I'd expect people only to buy "shares" in DAC-chains that they are interested in after those DACs are up and running and only for as long as they have a use for it.

It is probably bad of me, but I might as well be upfront with it, eventhough it will hurt my interests plenty, but seeing people expecting to get rich of other peoples efforts by claiming and monopolizing a stake, instead of wanting to use the new DACs, end up with nothing would actually make me feel a whole lot better about the world. It might even instill in me a little confidence that out of all the crypto-blockchain-experiments something might emerge that could actually work, but for now I am not convinced. So from my point of view I don't even see why DAC developers would owe PTS anything and I'm not convinced that pump and dump speculators are even interested in decentralized companies/applications/collaborations and their uses in the first place.

You should donate all the DAC shares your AGS are owed to the development of decentralized stuff.

Offline JoeyD

Re: Honoring AGS
« Reply #35 on: May 23, 2014, 08:51:05 pm »
You should donate all the DAC shares your AGS are owed to the development of decentralized stuff.
I had indeed planned to donate all proceeds from any successful project (I have also invested outsided of bitshares) to the cause(s) I deem worthy. This does mean I'm not prepared to abscond my rights to the ags-shares, because I want to direct those donations myself. I am not in it for the money (sofar I'm only losing money), although I will use some of it if I need it to ensure at least my short term survival. This is easy for me to say however, because my particular health situation and statistical analysis of similar cases, both of which have made money practically meaningless to me. (Before you ask, no I'm not willing to give it away)

Offline JakeThePanda

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Re: Honoring AGS
« Reply #36 on: May 23, 2014, 09:09:00 pm »
You should donate all the DAC shares your AGS are owed to the development of decentralized stuff.
I had indeed planned to donate all proceeds from any successful project (I have also invested outsided of bitshares) to the cause(s) I deem worthy. This does mean I'm not prepared to abscond my rights to the ags-shares, because I want to direct those donations myself. I am not in it for the money (sofar I'm only losing money), although I will use some of it if I need it to ensure at least my short term survival. This is easy for me to say however, because my particular health situation and statistical analysis of similar cases, both of which have made money practically meaningless to me. (Before you ask, no I'm not willing to give it away)

I'm sorry for your situation, but it's certainly not your place to judge anyone for wanting to make profits from their investments, especially when we are investing in DACs.  Last time I checked, the whole idea behind them was to make profits for the coin holder.  I will give you one chance to respond and we should end the derail.  Good luck!

Offline JoeyD

Re: Honoring AGS
« Reply #37 on: May 23, 2014, 09:37:33 pm »
I'm sorry for your situation, but it's certainly not your place to judge anyone for wanting to make profits from their investments, especially when we are investing in DACs.  Last time I checked, the whole idea behind them was to make profits for the coin holder.  I will give you one chance to respond and we should end the derail.  Good luck!
Oh I see what you mean. The thing about my situation wasn't to gain empathy, but actually my attempt to explain that I wasn't trying to force my view on others.  I was trying to illustrate why I might have a different perspective and that that might make me miss points that are important to people with different goals, to prevent miscommunication. .

I completely agree with DACs adding value to the coin holders and was not trying to take away from that concept at all. But we were talking about ways to distribute those coins and which distributions would be available to DAC-developers, in order to give his DAC and the participants therein the most value. So I myself and I suspect TonyK as well, were also considering situations with no shares distributed to PTS and/or AGS and I don't think those options should be left outside of the discussion.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2014, 09:39:44 pm by JoeyD »

Offline AdamBLevine

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Re: Honoring AGS
« Reply #38 on: May 23, 2014, 11:11:22 pm »
and this community IS large

Quote
Most Online Today: 117. Most Online Ever: 373 (December 05, 2013, 11:28:00 PM) [/color] 

Are sure you invested in AGS/PTS?  It's almost as if you want to see this fail and would take great pleasure in it.

I take no pleasure in this, it's just stressful.  It sucks that desperate people delude themselves, and it sucks that it makes them unhappy when their distortion is corrected.   It's better to look at the reality of the situation than what you wish it were because it would be better for you.    Since day one I've advised expectation management, but they can't or won't do it.   

What is the primary value of honoring the social contract?  The community.  If Invictus had cultivated an ecosystem that would be a fair trade, but looking around that isn't what happened.  Sorry if this is news to you, I wish it wasn't so blindingly obvious to me.  I'm not that smart, this isn't that hard.
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Re: Honoring AGS
« Reply #39 on: May 24, 2014, 05:40:22 am »

Thanks for all you are doing and for honoring PTS!

Honoring AGS also would free us up to include promoting your DAC as part of our media blitz planned to coincide with our big summer-long DAC coming out party. 

I think this could be a cool project and would definitely get behind it if it honored AGS.

We might run into problems promoting it as a DAC if it's not really Decentralized and Autonomous.  But I think we could promote it as a great project that honors our community consensus.

I don't think there's any obligation here, but I think it would generate a lot of good will and we're a cool community!  Please consider it Freetrade!! :)
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Offline FreeTrade

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Re: Honoring AGS
« Reply #40 on: May 24, 2014, 12:22:00 pm »
I've reconsidered the issue following the feedback from the community and decided to honor the AGS holders with 10%. Thanks for the feedback on this issue and apologies for any divisiveness created.
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Re: Honoring AGS
« Reply #41 on: May 24, 2014, 12:33:04 pm »
and this community IS large

Quote
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Re: Honoring AGS
« Reply #42 on: May 24, 2014, 12:34:32 pm »
I've reconsidered the issue following the feedback from the community and decided to honor the AGS holders with 10%. Thanks for the feedback on this issue and apologies for any divisiveness created.

+5% +5% +5%

PS What matters in the end are results because of decisions taken. Respect/thanks for your wise decision.  ;)

« Last Edit: May 24, 2014, 12:47:00 pm by liondani »
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Offline Stan

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Re: Honoring AGS
« Reply #43 on: May 24, 2014, 12:46:30 pm »
I've reconsidered the issue following the feedback from the community and decided to honor the AGS holders with 10%. Thanks for the feedback on this issue and apologies for any divisiveness created.

What matters is the end results/decisions, respect for now  ;)

+5% +5% +5%

This is fantastic news for the whole industry.

I truly believe that the model FreeTrade is demonstrating will be how more and more DACs will released from now on.  By targeting the communities he has chosen, he will get instant buzz and high levels of support and by reserving enough resources to provide continuing maintenance and evolution of a high-quality product he will show how to ensure that such companies are competitive.

And because he is such an inspiring example, it is essential that we all make sure the world knows about it!


« Last Edit: May 24, 2014, 12:53:12 pm by Stan »
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Offline CalabiYau

Re: Honoring AGS
« Reply #44 on: May 24, 2014, 02:27:24 pm »
I've reconsidered the issue following the feedback from the community and decided to honor the AGS holders with 10%. Thanks for the feedback on this issue and apologies for any divisiveness created.

 +5%  appreciated !

Offline valtr

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Re: Honoring AGS
« Reply #45 on: May 24, 2014, 03:21:20 pm »
 
I've reconsidered the issue following the feedback from the community and decided to honor the AGS holders with 10%. Thanks for the feedback on this issue and apologies for any divisiveness created.
+5% I hope this is the real start we are all waiting for. Thank you for your decesion.

Offline tonyk

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Re: Honoring AGS
« Reply #46 on: May 24, 2014, 05:08:53 pm »
I've reconsidered the issue following the feedback from the community and decided to honor the AGS holders with 10%. Thanks for the feedback on this issue and apologies for any divisiveness created.

Happy to hear that, though I would have understood the opposite.
Lack of arbitrage is the problem, isn't it. And this 'should' solves it.

Offline crazybit

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Re: Honoring AGS
« Reply #47 on: May 24, 2014, 05:18:36 pm »
excited to hear this good news! +5%
« Last Edit: May 24, 2014, 05:21:18 pm by CrazyBit »

Offline JoeyD

Re: Honoring AGS
« Reply #48 on: May 24, 2014, 06:30:56 pm »
Sorry everyone, I made a mistake when replying to this thread. Posting rushed messages in my spare minutes does more harm than good. I was under the impression it was discussing AGS shares distribution in general and did not see the subforums this was posted under. So if a mod could delete my posts that would be nice, unless nobody thinks they are disrupting the discussion.

Is there a topic discussing the arguments that would make someone chose a certain distribution and what motives would force the adherence to the social contract? So for example an btc-upgrade DAC to dpos would not need to issue shares to AGS/PTS, because of the massive marketing effect it would have for DPOS and the collective holdings of PTS and AGS in general. Other DACS would issue shares to PTS and AGS according to their requirement of cooperation and support from Invictus and the founding community. Something along those lines.

Offline jae208

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Re: Honoring AGS
« Reply #49 on: May 25, 2014, 08:42:33 pm »
You allocated 40% for things like marketing. It's not all about the code. Why not work with Stan and see what win win scenarios there might be in honoring AGS? Don't be stubborn, that's one reason MMC didn't do so well.

People are altruistic for selfish reasons but it works. You scratch our backs we scratch yours. The network effect works for ALL networks both on large scale and individually.

I agree with the comment on MMC. It probably didn't do so well because you just came across as selfish and not altruistic. 
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Offline jae208

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Re: Honoring AGS
« Reply #50 on: May 25, 2014, 09:30:21 pm »
and this community IS large

Quote
Most Online Today: 117. Most Online Ever: 373 (December 05, 2013, 11:28:00 PM) [/color] 

https://nextcoin.org:
Most Online Today: 64. Most Online Ever: 480 (December 25, 2013, 10:43:50 PM)

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https://forums.counterparty.co/
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So what you are showing is that the community on Bitshares is more active than any of the other communities. Looks very promising to me.  8)

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Offline jae208

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Re: Honoring AGS
« Reply #51 on: May 25, 2014, 09:35:59 pm »
and this community IS large

Quote
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Offline jae208

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Re: Honoring AGS
« Reply #52 on: May 25, 2014, 09:36:46 pm »
I've reconsidered the issue following the feedback from the community and decided to honor the AGS holders with 10%. Thanks for the feedback on this issue and apologies for any divisiveness created.

I 100% want this project to succeed!

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Offline fuzzy

Re: Honoring AGS
« Reply #53 on: May 26, 2014, 10:55:04 am »
I've reconsidered the issue following the feedback from the community and decided to honor the AGS holders with 10%. Thanks for the feedback on this issue and apologies for any divisiveness created.

Is there a way we could set up a Dev/Community Voice session to chat it up with the community and allow them to ask questions and let you answer them?  It would be helpful to get a little conversation recorded with you speaking to the launch's "air drop" coins and informing the crypto communities you are honoring so they know you included them.  Who knows, it could even make it onto the Beyond Bitcoin Show (or someone else's show who wants to access the content of the session free of charge). 

PM me if interested in this Freetrade and we'll get something set up sometime. 
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Offline toast

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Re: Honoring AGS
« Reply #54 on: May 26, 2014, 07:20:25 pm »
Very cool! Good job. Thoughts:

1) Non-proportional awards for DOGE and BTC... Dogecoin's about to get dusted!
2) Secure distributed RNG, I'm pretty sure Denny's DPOS approach solves that. Any plans to play nice regarding possible name collisions? I'm sure you would not appreciate it if he called his "LottoShares 2.0"
3) Not honoring AGS... Might be reasonable if you're making a point about how they didn't give you any funds, but the point is the distribution list and not shows of allegiance. I don't think a fork is a threat because of Denny's lotto DAC and there is no precedent to show AGS is a good target.

1. The BTC and DOGE block distribution points have already passed.
2. I don't think it solves the problem sufficiently for very large prizes - not sure about name collisions - he seems to be calling it Lotto Dapp . . i've got the lottoshares.org domain and google says 'No results found for +lottoshares'
3. I'm not making any point here, certainly not expecting any funds from AGS. I haven't had any involvement with AGS so it doesn't feel appropriate to distribute shares to AGS holders. My involvement is with MMC and PTS so want to ensure those holders are supported. The intention with BTC and DOGE is to get a free lottery ticket into everyone's hands for maximum involvement.

For #2 I'm talking about our own Denny Wang aka HackFisher in the "charity" subforum. There are two Denny's lottos =P

#3 - please consider AGS! It makes the difference between begrudging and enthusiastic support from the bitshares community. I think the community support may be worth taking 1/4th of the planned dev premine.

Thanks for all you are doing and for honoring PTS!

Honoring AGS also would free us up to include promoting your DAC as part of our media blitz planned to coincide with our big summer-long DAC coming out party.  We are promoting an industry, not one company, and are delighted to promote any third party DACs that the BitShares Social Consensus allows us to support.   

Possible synergies abound!   Joint interviews and videos that people will consume just because they are joint interviews and videos, for example.  You can be a part of every promotion we produce that talks about the Summer Cambrian Explosion of DACs.  Let us bask in each others brilliance!  The whole can be greater than the sum of its parts!

While Denny's DACs and your DACs may look like competitors, the real competitors are established on-line gaming businesses.  You and Denny will drive more awareness to each other's DACs than you will take away from each other.  It's the same reason competing car dealers and hardware stores tend to cluster on the same street.  Get the traffic to come to your neighborhood and then compete!

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Offline fuzzy

Re: Honoring AGS
« Reply #55 on: May 27, 2014, 02:15:55 am »
How AGS is handled is a completely different problem, and I agree with you wholeheartedly, tonyk!

However given that he is giving away 20% to BTC and DOGE, is a huge blow to bitshares community. BTC and DOGE don't give you anything in return either, well perhaps some free marketing.

I know the bitshares community has been largely behind the creation of the open source beyond bitcoin show.  If a DAC has open access to a community that creates content for its own show, to me that community is pretty valuable to not only to DAC Devs, but also the crypto community as a whole.
Just think...Open source blockchain awareness media network and the Legend gives a humble shout out to the bitshares community and BM for being first movers in the adoption of beyond bitcoin.  Along with that you have open access to the community and their appreciation..
Maybe I am too positive here, but it seems like a great place to establish an early DAC to media and community exposure advantage, it seems like a smart long term synergistic play.
« Last Edit: May 27, 2014, 02:18:34 am by fuznuts »
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Offline Riverhead

Re: Honoring AGS
« Reply #56 on: July 18, 2014, 02:04:37 pm »
Can someone help me understand if AGS awarded to Founders is part of the Genesis block for LottoShares?  I'm very excited to see this DAC launch and the enthusiasm for it on Bitcointalk.


Thank you.

Offline toast

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Re: Honoring AGS
« Reply #57 on: July 18, 2014, 02:36:07 pm »
Can someone help me understand if AGS awarded to Founders is part of the Genesis block for LottoShares?  I'm very excited to see this DAC launch and the enthusiasm for it on Bitcointalk.


Thank you.

Yes, but they are all awarded to an address that I3 controls because they have the magic spreadsheet.
(Not everyone had registered a founder key)
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Re: Honoring AGS
« Reply #58 on: July 18, 2014, 03:17:13 pm »
Afaik the issue is privacy .. if they were to honor the founder in the genesis aeverone could find out who donated what?
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Offline Riverhead

Re: Honoring AGS
« Reply #59 on: July 18, 2014, 03:19:48 pm »
Can someone help me understand if AGS awarded to Founders is part of the Genesis block for LottoShares?  I'm very excited to see this DAC launch and the enthusiasm for it on Bitcointalk.


Thank you.

Yes, but they are all awarded to an address that I3 controls because they have the magic spreadsheet.
(Not everyone had registered a founder key)


Understood, thank you.