NXT online wallet

[donkeypong]

ok so I guess what were saying here is

1) you have MYTHICAL software that does everything(and is so generalized you claim bitcoin itself qualifies for this category youve invented).

2) we have REAL software that does something useful and valuable(and has code and specifications).

-bm

Are you basically saying that you have a product and we don't? Sorry, but that's not much of an argument. Microsoft had tablet computers long before Apple did, too.

[toast]

donkeypong, that's an interesting and very brief work of science fiction in your last post and has precisely zero bearing on reality.  See my last post about people here not wanting readers to know about what VCorps has to offer.

-bm

I've read what you posted and find it very interesting. It is similar to what *some of* our DACs will be doing. I still think we're talking about totally different things, the correct comparison is not "vcorp vs DAC".

I could say the same thing you're saying about your own behavior - we keep talking past each other and you have ignored the one question I've asked you 4 times now, which will lead us closer to a common understanding of what we mean when we say DAC.

If you ask me to define "DAC" again I will just ask you to read the last few posts I've made in this thread.

ok so I guess what were saying here is

1) you have MYTHICAL software that does everything(and is so generalized you claim bitcoin itself qualifies for this category youve invented).

2) we have REAL software that does something useful and valuable(and has code and specifications).

-bm

What you said is true! Good job! That's not what I was trying to say. I am not trying to say DACs are "better" than Vcrops. I'm saying we're discussing two distinct concepts.
YOU ARE RIGHT, VCROPS ARE THE BEST AND WE SHOULD ALL BUY NXT. Happy?

I was trying to have a theoretical discussion about crypto-equity.

I've responded to each of your posts so far, will you do me a favor and answer the one question I've asked several times now?

Again, we can completely stop using the word "DAC" if you like - it doesn't change the crux of our argument which is that *all* cryptequity are bearer shares and can be analyzed for profitability. Do you agree or disagree?

formulated another way:

A DAC is a blockchain + cryptequity. If you don't think "DAC" is a good word to describe this, we can temporarily use "DASE", or "distributed autonomous system w/ equity." Surely you would agree that bitcoin is a DASE.
So, given that bitcoin is a DASE, would you agree with my earlier statement?
"Bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies are DASEs with embedded bearer shares which can be analyzed for profitability".

[santaclause102]

bluemeanie1,

maybe you can join the conversation content wise. I have presented my categorization of the matter above.

Like toast said the goal is to have a common understanding. Please join the discussion and challenge our categories and definitions So we can all enhance our understanding together...

Specifically WOULD YOU AGREE TO MY CATEGORIZATION? See https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=4634.msg62974#msg62974

delulo
 

[bluemeanie1]

donkeypong, that's an interesting and very brief work of science fiction in your last post and has precisely zero bearing on reality.  See my last post about people here not wanting readers to know about what VCorps has to offer.

-bm

I've read what you posted and find it very interesting. It is similar to what *some of* our DACs will be doing. I still think we're talking about totally different things, the correct comparison is not "vcorp vs DAC".

I could say the same thing you're saying about your own behavior - we keep talking past each other and you have ignored the one question I've asked you 4 times now, which will lead us closer to a common understanding of what we mean when we say DAC.

If you ask me to define "DAC" again I will just ask you to read the last few posts I've made in this thread.

ok so I guess what were saying here is

1) you have MYTHICAL software that does everything(and is so generalized you claim bitcoin itself qualifies for this category youve invented).

2) we have REAL software that does something useful and valuable(and has code and specifications).

-bm

[donkeypong]

donkeypong, that's an interesting and very brief work of science fiction in your last post and has precisely zero bearing on reality.  See my last post about people here not wanting readers to know about what VCorps has to offer.

-bm

Of course, I understand there are some good things. There is some wonderful potential there to empower little guys and lots of great stuff happening. I just wonder whether NXT folks these days see the bigger picture and ponder that direction.

[toast]

donkeypong, that's an interesting and very brief work of science fiction in your last post and has precisely zero bearing on reality.  See my last post about people here not wanting readers to know about what VCorps has to offer.

-bm

I've read what you posted and find it very interesting. It is similar to what *some of* our DACs will be doing. I still think we're talking about totally different things, the correct comparison is not "vcorp vs DAC".

I could say the same thing you're saying about your own behavior - we keep talking past each other and you have ignored the one question I've asked you 4 times now, which will lead us closer to a common understanding of what we mean when we say DAC.

If you ask me to define "DAC" again I will just ask you to read the last few posts I've made in this thread.

[bluemeanie1]

donkeypong, that's an interesting and very brief work of science fiction in your last post and has precisely zero bearing on reality.  See my last post about people here not wanting readers to know about what VCorps has to offer.

-bm

[donkeypong]

I think there is a huge potential for DAC technology to be leveraged to improve offline corporations. However, I wonder if this was what BCNext had in mind when he created NXT. I don't mean to be a prick, but the NXT vision was to create a decentralized, anti-establishment alternative to Bitcoin. Now it's creating models for corporations to outsource their workforce to computers?

Though I largely left NXT for Bitshares, I am still a fan and hope it succeeds.

[bluemeanie1]

one interesting idea someone raised was creating a vcorp for your band, promoting the shares on a band website, and then accepting the shares as tickets while on tour.  So you've effectively pre-paid for your ticket by buying a share, while making it financially possible for the band to come out to you.

lots of fun interesting ideas out there but also serious ones.  Someone is starting a Venture Capital firm *on the NXT block chain* and they will be using VCorps when it's released.  This VC firm will loan out money to finance new features for NXT.  They will likely be handling hundreds of thousands of USD.

-bm

[bluemeanie1]

you can also manage many more than just 3 shareholders.  You can manage 1000 shareholders(even more), you can hold virtual board meetings, and distribute dividends with a click or two.  eg. you want to start a local meetup and you want to handle money from contributors, but you don't want to incorporate.  This is a perfect solution.

I think some of the DAC concepts were about building up various logical contingencies- it was like an extension of bitcoin script.  Vcorps inherit from real-world incorporation concepts which have been proven to work for practically a millennium.  There's no mystery here.

-bm

[jefdiesel]

hey guys

 i've been really digging my head into autoDACS or as bluemeanie calls them VCorps, and I really think the clearest way to think about this is that VCorps are what to investment and capital that Crypto Currencies are to controlling finance and transference of funds.

 Its amazing we can transfer funds freely, low fee, secure and instantly using nothing but co-operation and computing power.

 BUT the blockchain holds no record of the BUSINESS being done. Who knows what you bought, invested in, or traded. At first (SR) this was good. But quickly it becomes limiting.

 Its fine to buy a bag of herbs online, but it works best when you have no recourse as a seller. What if you wanted to build a seller rep? There is no record. VCorps lets you create a device aka a Corporate entity that has responsibility, transparency, and  security.

 Say three guys want to make a business. A dev, a salesman and a money guy. $100k in the pot to start the VCorp, split even 3 ways.
 This VCorps rules are as follows:
 Investor earns 10% monthly from final profits
 Dev earns $10k month
 Salesman earns $5k month and 5% sales., with a 25k monthly minimum for a 1% bonus
 All proceeds go to the account. All expenses, including salaries come out.
 A Profit and Loss is generated monthly and posted.

 No one can take the money and run. Three votes to change any financial aspect.
 Say a year goes buy, business has been good, lets expand.
 This business has a RECORD of business done, highs and lows, and they can offer this info to investors, and even create a virtual IPO

[bytemaster]

I think there is a lot of potential for using DAC technology to provide better accounting for traditional firms.    This is what NXT is focusing on (from what I read) and I think it is good and worth while.

While I have attempted to define DAC to be purely in the realm of accomplishing its mission without a central authority, that does not devalue other applications of the technology.

[donkeypong]

Nice post, delulo. I support the positive vibes.

[santaclause102]

hey guys,

I'm not entirely appreciating how I'm being treated here.  I offered to explain the VCorps- clearly there are other agendas at play here.  Maybe some here don't want the forum users to know how NXT Vcorps work and what they have to offer?

you need to define DACs before using this term.  That's pretty basic.

You can criticize the NXT community all you want, NXT has software that is used by a growing community.  I find the community to be vibrant.

-bm

bluemeanie1,

your presence here is highly appreciated. It gives a new perspective which is always fruitful. Let's start over again and only focus on the arguments / content and not on us (homines).

Here is my way to go about it. We both use the word DAC. So let's define what in the systems we produce is decentralized, what is autonomous and what is a corporation (I wrote the following on another occasion. That's why it sounds a bit official and very basic)

"Decentralized Autonomous Corporation" (DAC) is only a metaphor. This metaphor applies to NXT Bitcoin and most Bitshares projects alike.
For example Bitcoin can be described as a DAC:
1) It is decentralized insofar as a government could shut down a lot of miners but the network would continue to process transactions because one could never shut down all miners.
2) Bitcoin is autonomous because it does not depend on it's creator to keep on running.
3) Bitcoin is insofar a company as it provides a service (Bitcoins's service is "value transfer" represented by tokens with applications in remittance, e-commerce etc.), it has expenses (electricity costs of miners), it has revenues (fees) and bitcoins can be seen as shares in the "Bitcoin value-transfer-network" which rise in price if the network is used much.
Of course, no analogy can ever be a perfect description of the (code and social) reality. "Decentralized Autonomous Company" is as used above an analytical framework! Not more and not less.
And of course 1, 2 and 3 can be challenged in different ways. So the above is more what attributes a DAC should ideally have. 

As I understand the definition of DAC by NXT: Mimicing a centralized company and replacing as many parts of the centralized company with different parts of the "innovation of Bitcoin" as possible. One part of this process would be to have the company stock being traded for example as colored coins peer to peer + publically auditable stake + voting capacity of shareholders identifying themselves by signing with their private key. My source: https://nxtforum.org/nxt-improvement-proposals/virtual-corporations-on-nxt/?PHPSESSID=6dq4o5dfi7t1av12usj02t3nu1
In what other ways would a "trad. company" differ from a DAC as defined by you?
Could any company producing any good be made a DAC (as defined by you)?

Maybe you can say in your own words, in which ways your system would be decentralized, autonomous and a company/corporation?

So the way I see it is: YOU / NXT and the Bitshares community just use the same word (DAC) for different things.
So there is no reasons for arguing about the truth of those definitions! Instead it makes sense to discuss how revolutionary the two different concepts are and where their USP is!  

[gamey]

hey guys,

I'm not entirely appreciating how I'm being treated here.  I offered to explain the VCorps- clearly there are other agendas at play here.  Maybe some here don't want the forum users to know how NXT Vcorps work and what they have to offer?

you need to define DACs before using this term.  That's pretty basic.

You can criticize the NXT community all you want, NXT has software that is used by a growing community.  I find the community to be vibrant.

-bm

I just answered your question about what I personally thought DAC meant, and you implied it showed my ignorance about how corporations build value or some such.  It was pretty much just an ad hominem attack from you and now you wish to play victim.  I don't get it... 

Here is the thing, this is absolute bleeding edge stuff.  We do not know how it will play out.  Maybe there is a better word than corporation to make the analogy with.  DASE ? (I forget others that have been used.)  Regardless, that has nothing to do with how people understand brick&mortar corporations etc.  You were just being insulting for no reason, then complain about how you are being treated.  I'd like to hear how your NXT Virtual Corporations work.  You should go on one of the Beyond Bitcoin shows.  You'd be treated with respect.  No one would insult you. No one is censoring you here.  Dan Larimer has REPEATEDLY said he wants people to come here and argue over ideas.  I see a lot of insults from you and little else.  So where is there to go from that ?

edit - Changed ad hoc to ad hominem.  If that isn't the error of a coder who is rusty on his Latin.... not sure what is. lol