Author Topic: Non-Technical Delegates of the World Unite!  (Read 8189 times)

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Offline Empirical1

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Maybe dumb, but if you're short of delegates, have you considered reaching out to the NXT community?
If there's a profit incentive, maybe some of the people running NXT nodes may have the know how and the desire to become delegates if they're made aware of the opportunity.

Offline liondani

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Offline JakeThePanda

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I'm one of the technically challenged and I'm willing to put in the time and investment. I just need the know how.

Offline AdamBLevine

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Yep, I'm interested if it's not a large time commitment or technical barrier but it seems like at least right now it requires specialized knowledge I do not have, or really want to spend the time to learn.
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Offline xeroc

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+5% nice controbution to the community.

Offline gamey

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What I would suggest is for Bytemaster to setup a node in AWS (Amazon Web Services) and make an image that then is easy to configure for each delegate.


Probably more simple solution (you don't need to know how to fire up EC2 instance from image) - just use Vagrant and the config files from this repo https://github.com/valzav/vagrant_bitshares_toolkit
Basically after installing Vagrant and specifying your AWS credentials you need to fire up a single command to configure instance and compile bitshares_toolkit on it:
vagrant up --provider=aws

It also supports DigitalOcean or you can use your local VirtualBox VM to give it a try.

 +5% +5%  Excellent. 

I haven't tried this yet, but I love the idea.  Works across Digital Ocean, VirtualBox, and AWS.  Seems like a better solution than anything posted so far.  I'll have to go install Vagrant to see what it is about.
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Offline valzav

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What I would suggest is for Bytemaster to setup a node in AWS (Amazon Web Services) and make an image that then is easy to configure for each delegate.


Probably more simple solution (you don't need to know how to fire up EC2 instance from image) - just use Vagrant and the config files from this repo https://github.com/valzav/vagrant_bitshares_toolkit
Basically after installing Vagrant and specifying your AWS credentials you need to fire up a single command to configure instance and compile bitshares_toolkit on it:
vagrant up --provider=aws

It also supports DigitalOcean or you can use your local VirtualBox VM to give it a try.

Offline bitmeat

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Quote
Fixed number of delegates is constraining the network with no scalability.

Isn't this effectively POS without the D?

Offline Kenof

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100 delegates seems a low number, and my gut feeling is that would be a good move to let more people have a chance of participating in the network in this way. I always assumed PoS to mean that everyone who wanted to would have a chance of participating / being rewarded for being in the network - but the PoS is currently limited to 100 delegates, right? (many of whom have spun up many VPS instances). I like the design with voting though, but limiting it to 100 seems top-heavy. Should the PoS not be a proportional system, with no upper limit on the number of delegates? This would have the effect of making it more distributed. I think more instructions are needed as a priority to make the process a little easier.

+5%

I was thinking about this a lot and must say that I agree with you completely. Fixed number of delegates is constraining the network with no scalability.

Maybe set 100 delegates as minimum and with more then 10 000 (100^2) active users add 1 delegate per 100 users. Using this approach network will always have similar ratio of users and delegates thus becoming more decentralized with more active users.

Also if there is number of active users fluctuating between for example 10 095 and 10 102 number of delegates will constantly vary between 100 and 101. Solution to this problem could be using some kind of hysteresis. Number of 100 users could be used but this needs to be chosen wisely.
If number of users is more then 10 100 then 101 delegates are active and if less then 10 000 users are ative there are 100 delegates.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2014, 08:28:52 am by Kenof »
Making life easier.

Offline pgbit

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It seems to me that we still may have one nagging barrier to entry for delegates:  technical know-how.

I've noticed a few wistful postings on the delegate billboards indicating an interest in being a delegate "if it's not too hard" or "too fiddley".

It seems to me that some of our best delegate candidates (those with the ability to grow the industry, advocate a vision, engender trust, and/or represent constituencies) may be shut out, intimidated, or just too busy to keep up with the technical side of things.

I wonder if there are many who feel that way?

I suppose one solution might be to partner with a geek and become a formidable winning Delegate together.

Is anyone else thinking along this line?  Other concerns or ideas?
100 delegates seems a low number, and my gut feeling is that would be a good move to let more people have a chance of participating in the network in this way. I always assumed PoS to mean that everyone who wanted to would have a chance of participating / being rewarded for being in the network - but the PoS is currently limited to 100 delegates, right? (many of whom have spun up many VPS instances). I like the design with voting though, but limiting it to 100 seems top-heavy. Should the PoS not be a proportional system, with no upper limit on the number of delegates? This would have the effect of making it more distributed. I think more instructions are needed as a priority to make the process a little easier.

Offline Stan

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I'll admit I have not joined the effort as a delegate. However I would be interested in joining with the intention of building tools that make it easier for non-technical folks.

Also I'm thinking about ability to do nice monitoring features too - e.g. "is my node alive and well?"

What I would suggest is for Bytemaster to setup a node in AWS (Amazon Web Services) and make an image that then is easy to configure for each delegate.

Then all a delegate needs to do is fire up an instance with that public image, and then configuration of a private key should be MUCH easier, than trying to compile the whole thing from scratch.

Just my 2 cents. That's how I would go about it.

I agree that is where things should go.

Thinking ahead, the ultimate solution should have intercontinental diversity.  It shouldn't be possible for someone to order AWS to shut down most of a DAC's delegates in one swell foop.
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Offline bitcoinba

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Offline Stan

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Correct me if I'm wrong but a delegate's job is to sign messages. Nothing less, nothing more. A cell phone could do that. My point is a micro instance can totally do it, and it costs like what $15/mo? AWS instance would be much more likely to be always on, compared to my home internet, which goes out once in awhile.

Another reason I offer AWS is because it is extremely easy for someone to create an image, that then others can just fire up, may be edit a single file and reboot. This discussion is about bringing non-technical delegates on-board. Even if it is just 5 lines, it's never that simple, unless you use the exact same version for everything. Even then, sometimes you do an update and you get the wrong library linking mixed up, stuff doesn't compile. I'm advanced user so I can recover from these things, but it is very discouraging for the non-technical fellas.

Technically, a delegate's job is that simple, but we hope it will grow to be much more significant.  If we can make the job profitable enough, then it will get competitive and the way many will compete is to plow some of those profits back into the industry - doing things that will keep them elected.  Thus, much of the maintenance and promotion and further development work and strategic decision making could migrate into the hands of the delegates.

Decentralizing these decisions from individual developers and making it possible to cut the tether on the way to full autonomy.

Quote
Delegate positions will be far more significant roles than is yet foreseen in the minds of men.
https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=4821.msg62779#msg62779
« Last Edit: June 13, 2014, 04:38:11 am by Stan »
Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract of any kind.   These are merely my opinions which I reserve the right to change at any time.

Offline bobmaloney

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Offline gamey

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Correct me if I'm wrong but a delegate's job is to sign messages. Nothing less, nothing more. A cell phone could do that. My point is a micro instance can totally do it, and it costs like what $15/mo? AWS instance would be much more likely to be always on, compared to my home internet, which goes out once in awhile.

Another reason I offer AWS is because it is extremely easy for someone to create an image, that then others can just fire up, may be edit a single file and reboot. This discussion is about bringing non-technical delegates on-board. Even if it is just 5 lines, it's never that simple, unless you use the exact same version for everything. Even then, sometimes you do an update and you get the wrong library linking mixed up, stuff doesn't compile. I'm advanced user so I can recover from these things, but it is very discouraging for the non-technical fellas.

I agree 100% with what you're saying except if you install ubuntu 14.04 LTS and go through the list it should work 100% of the time.

AWS has a lot of advantages, but there is a disadvantage to having a recommended provider.  It adds to centralization but at this point it doesn't really matter.  Someone still has to do all the private key work on each instance after it is fired up and then upkeep it.  That to me seems to be the hard part.  Not the initial setup.  Thats why I decided against messing with this stuff.  Too much time commitment going forward keeping on top of things.

If you could make a tool to migrate the private keys (other data?) to each newly updated AWS image I think that'd be great.  Perhaps automating the whole thing.  install.sh and update.sh ?
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