Author Topic: Breaking down voting - Don't vote for happyshares / "pay back delegates"  (Read 12637 times)

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Offline Riverhead

??? You can see their pay rate on the GUI, 5th column, literally right next to the approve button...

I cannot! As I am saying from last night!

For me they go:
NAME   APPROVAL   RELIABILITY   BLOCKS PRODUCED   APPROVE


What version of the client are you on?  I see the following in the gui and CLI:


Code: [Select]

ID    NAME (* next in line)           APPROVAL       PRODUCED MISSED   RELIABILITY   PAY RATE PAY BALANCE         LAST BLOCK
============================================================================================================================
266   testz                           4.1826375369 % 128      19       87.07 %       100 %    65.17789 BTSX       15875
313   jabbajabba                      3.9854911852 % 98       5        95.15 %       50 %     29.87895 BTSX       15835
318   clout-delegate2                 3.9160642987 % 104      9        92.04 %       100 %    68.73253 BTSX       15815
320   clout-delegate5                 3.9160641627 % 102      15       87.18 %       100 %    66.01369 BTSX       15861
317   clout-delegate1                 3.9160641548 % 100      11       90.09 %       100 %    65.85485 BTSX       15824
321   clout-delegate4                 3.9160641166 % 104      12       89.66 %       100 %    65.09197 BTSX       15848
319   clout-delegate3                 3.9160639858 % 95       17       84.82 %       100 %    62.47622 BTSX       15890
307   daslab                          3.9030978905 % 136      25       84.47 %       100 %    64.63434 BTSX       15857
299   bitsuperlab                     3.9030477969 % 156      5        96.89 %       100 %    63.73583 BTSX       15792
28    init27                          3.8980479130 % 172      0        100.00 %      100 %    73.27050 BTSX       15845
27    init26                          3.8980478635 % 165      0        100.00 %      100 %    72.28016 BTSX       15884
40    init39                          3.8980478622 % 167      1        99.40 %       100 %    72.25481 BTSX       15870
95    init94                          3.8980478610 % 167      0        100.00 %      100 %    72.23095 BTSX       15788
49    init48                          3.8980478466 % 168      0        100.00 %      100 %    71.94331 BTSX       15766
87    init86                          3.8980478456 % 171      2        98.84 %       100 %    71.92200 BTSX       15866
42    init41                          3.8980478335 % 165      1        99.40 %       100 %    71.68102 BTSX       15854
64    init63                          3.8980478325 % 167      0        100.00 %      100 %    71.66141 BTSX       15807
45    init44                          3.8980478087 % 163      0        100.00 %      100 %    71.18498 BTSX       15832
22    init21                          3.8980478004 % 167      0        100.00 %      100 %    71.01892 BTSX       15874



Offline toast

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??? You can see their pay rate on the GUI, 5th column, literally right next to the approve button...

I cannot! As I am saying from last night!

For me they go:
NAME   APPROVAL   RELIABILITY   BLOCKS PRODUCED   APPROVE

o.o



OS / version?
Do not use this post as information for making any important decisions. The only agreements I ever make are informal and non-binding. Take the same precautions as when dealing with a compromised account, scammer, sockpuppet, etc.

Offline Simeon II

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??? You can see their pay rate on the GUI, 5th column, literally right next to the approve button...

I cannot! As I am saying from last night!

For me they go:
NAME   APPROVAL   RELIABILITY   BLOCKS PRODUCED   APPROVE

Offline toast

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Assuming $4/BTSX in a span of 1-1.5years, this delegate (singular) has made ~300*4= $1200 for a day. During time when there is NO actual trading (expect 5 to 5000 fold increase with trading).

 And he is doing what exactly ????

318   clout-delegate2                 3.9160652063 % 99       9        91.67 %       100 %    62.59274 BTSX       15281     
317   clout-delegate1                 3.9160650623 % 95       11       89.62 %       100 %    59.71459 BTSX       15260     
321   clout-delegate4                 3.9160650243 % 99       12       89.19 %       100 %    58.95391 BTSX       15334     
320   clout-delegate5                 3.9160650090 % 96       15       86.49 %       100 %    58.64804 BTSX       15287     
319   clout-delegate3                 3.9160647706 % 88       17       83.81 %       100 %    53.88070 BTSX       15253     



*No offence clout I am all for taking advantage of the opportunities when they present themselves.

Is that saying he made ~58 BTS per block? How many transactions?

Have you heard about the humongous asset registration fees currently at 148,446.95040 BTSX.

You thought they go to shareholders right? No no no they go to DELEGATES!

Dude... every single fee in the system "goes to delegates!!1", which can choose to burn them. Shareholders elect delegates that burn the proportion they want.

Dude... you are smart enough to know this is stupid stupid stupid !

And tell me what is the current burn rate 1%, hardly?????

So that means the shareholders prefer delegates that keep the money for themselves, at least this early on when there is no competition...
If the 3% of voting stake wanted delegates that burned all the fees, then they could make delegates that burn all the fees and vote them in.

"Paying to delegates" is the same as "pay rate upper bound". What shall we fix it at, 80% 50%?

Quote
And the interface (as is now) encourages greedy delegates. Example – you have to go to the console to find actual fees for each delegate. So the lazy voters – read 75% of all voters – will just check the GUI data provided and eventually vote…

??? You can see their pay rate on the GUI, 5th column, literally right next to the approve button...
Do not use this post as information for making any important decisions. The only agreements I ever make are informal and non-binding. Take the same precautions as when dealing with a compromised account, scammer, sockpuppet, etc.

Offline Simeon II

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But when the market comes to life the transaction will increase manifold.

And the interface (as is now) encourages greedy delegates. Example – you have to go to the console to find actual fees for each delegate. So the lazy voters – read 75% of all voters – will just check the GUI data provided and eventually vote…

Offline Riverhead


Dude... you are smart enough to know this is stupid stupid stupid !

And tell me what is the current burn rate 1%, hardly? ??? ?


The asset registration should slow down as price increases.  I can see maybe one or two assets a month being created....maybe...but most will just trade the standard Market assets.  Unless an asset is really compelling it's not worth the price to create it.  Also, I think there is a bit of a feeling of monopoly money right now as people got a seemingly high number of BTSX for their PTS.


Offline Simeon II

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Assuming $4/BTSX in a span of 1-1.5years, this delegate (singular) has made ~300*4= $1200 for a day. During time when there is NO actual trading (expect 5 to 5000 fold increase with trading).

 And he is doing what exactly ????

318   clout-delegate2                 3.9160652063 % 99       9        91.67 %       100 %    62.59274 BTSX       15281     
317   clout-delegate1                 3.9160650623 % 95       11       89.62 %       100 %    59.71459 BTSX       15260     
321   clout-delegate4                 3.9160650243 % 99       12       89.19 %       100 %    58.95391 BTSX       15334     
320   clout-delegate5                 3.9160650090 % 96       15       86.49 %       100 %    58.64804 BTSX       15287     
319   clout-delegate3                 3.9160647706 % 88       17       83.81 %       100 %    53.88070 BTSX       15253     



*No offence clout I am all for taking advantage of the opportunities when they present themselves.

Is that saying he made ~58 BTS per block? How many transactions?

Have you heard about the humongous asset registration fees currently at 148,446.95040 BTSX.

You thought they go to shareholders right? No no no they go to DELEGATES!

Dude... every single fee in the system "goes to delegates!!1", which can choose to burn them. Shareholders elect delegates that burn the proportion they want.

Dude... you are smart enough to know this is stupid stupid stupid !

And tell me what is the current burn rate 1%, hardly?????

Offline toast

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Assuming $4/BTSX in a span of 1-1.5years, this delegate (singular) has made ~300*4= $1200 for a day. During time when there is NO actual trading (expect 5 to 5000 fold increase with trading).

 And he is doing what exactly ????

318   clout-delegate2                 3.9160652063 % 99       9        91.67 %       100 %    62.59274 BTSX       15281     
317   clout-delegate1                 3.9160650623 % 95       11       89.62 %       100 %    59.71459 BTSX       15260     
321   clout-delegate4                 3.9160650243 % 99       12       89.19 %       100 %    58.95391 BTSX       15334     
320   clout-delegate5                 3.9160650090 % 96       15       86.49 %       100 %    58.64804 BTSX       15287     
319   clout-delegate3                 3.9160647706 % 88       17       83.81 %       100 %    53.88070 BTSX       15253     



*No offence clout I am all for taking advantage of the opportunities when they present themselves.

Is that saying he made ~58 BTS per block? How many transactions?

Have you heard about the humongous asset registration fees currently at 148,446.95040 BTSX.

You thought they go to shareholders right? No no no they go to DELEGATES!

Dude... every single fee in the system "goes to delegates!!1", which can choose to burn them. Shareholders elect delegates that burn the proportion they want.
Do not use this post as information for making any important decisions. The only agreements I ever make are informal and non-binding. Take the same precautions as when dealing with a compromised account, scammer, sockpuppet, etc.

Ggozzo

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Wow. So does it go to one lucky delegate who produces the block the registration fee is included in?

Offline Simeon II

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Assuming $4/BTSX in a span of 1-1.5years, this delegate (singular) has made ~300*4= $1200 for a day. During time when there is NO actual trading (expect 5 to 5000 fold increase with trading).

 And he is doing what exactly ????

318   clout-delegate2                 3.9160652063 % 99       9        91.67 %       100 %    62.59274 BTSX       15281     
317   clout-delegate1                 3.9160650623 % 95       11       89.62 %       100 %    59.71459 BTSX       15260     
321   clout-delegate4                 3.9160650243 % 99       12       89.19 %       100 %    58.95391 BTSX       15334     
320   clout-delegate5                 3.9160650090 % 96       15       86.49 %       100 %    58.64804 BTSX       15287     
319   clout-delegate3                 3.9160647706 % 88       17       83.81 %       100 %    53.88070 BTSX       15253     



*No offence clout I am all for taking advantage of the opportunities when they present themselves.

Is that saying he made ~58 BTS per block? How many transactions?

Have you heard about the humongous asset registration fees currently at 148,446.95040 BTSX.

You thought they go to shareholders right? No no no they go to DELEGATES!

Ggozzo

  • Guest
Assuming $4/BTSX in a span of 1-1.5years, this delegate (singular) has made ~300*4= $1200 for a day. During time when there is NO actual trading (expect 5 to 5000 fold increase with trading).

 And he is doing what exactly ????

318   clout-delegate2                 3.9160652063 % 99       9        91.67 %       100 %    62.59274 BTSX       15281     
317   clout-delegate1                 3.9160650623 % 95       11       89.62 %       100 %    59.71459 BTSX       15260     
321   clout-delegate4                 3.9160650243 % 99       12       89.19 %       100 %    58.95391 BTSX       15334     
320   clout-delegate5                 3.9160650090 % 96       15       86.49 %       100 %    58.64804 BTSX       15287     
319   clout-delegate3                 3.9160647706 % 88       17       83.81 %       100 %    53.88070 BTSX       15253     



*No offence clout I am all for taking advantage of the opportunities when they present themselves.

Is that saying he made ~58 BTS per block? How many transactions?

Offline Simeon II

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Assuming $4/BTSX in a span of 1-1.5years, this delegate (singular) has made ~300*4= $1200 for a day. During time when there is NO actual trading (expect 5 to 5000 fold increase with trading).

 And he is doing what exactly ????

318   clout-delegate2                 3.9160652063 % 99       9        91.67 %       100 %    62.59274 BTSX       15281     
317   clout-delegate1                 3.9160650623 % 95       11       89.62 %       100 %    59.71459 BTSX       15260     
321   clout-delegate4                 3.9160650243 % 99       12       89.19 %       100 %    58.95391 BTSX       15334     
320   clout-delegate5                 3.9160650090 % 96       15       86.49 %       100 %    58.64804 BTSX       15287     
319   clout-delegate3                 3.9160647706 % 88       17       83.81 %       100 %    53.88070 BTSX       15253     



*No offence clout I am all for taking advantage of the opportunities when they present themselves.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2014, 12:10:39 am by Simeon II »

Offline santaclause102

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OK, I see you already found justification why most delegates charge 100% fees.
I have other/simpler explanation - GREED!
I dont understand. Can you repeat in other words?

Offline Simeon II

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OK, I see you already found justification why most delegates charge 100% fees.

I have other/simpler explanation - GREED!

Offline santaclause102

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Quote
The freerider problem: Delegates can use the money for everybody (dividends, marketing, build the ecosystem) or they can pay it back to the voters. Shareholders can maximize their gains if they voted for the latter and everyone else would vote for the first.

Can you further elaborate on this? It might be obvious and it is very late and I am going to sleep but I think this discussion is important in order to avoid what you have described.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tragedy_of_the_commons
From the perspective of the individual shareholder that tries to maximize his benefit, the best (of all options) would be if (1) he approved as many delegates that give part or all of the delegate reward back as possible but (2) no other shareholder would act this way. Because then our shareholder has the best of two worlds: A stable and decentralized network which he profits from through a stable share price / an appreciation in share value. And he also has gotten the pay back from the "pay back delegates".
This is a freerider PROBLEM though because if everyone followed this rationale then the network would not be centralized anymore because shareholders would give all their votes to the one admin/provider of several delegates that pays back the most (in the long run this ends up being one delegate because of economies of scale if he needs to be profitable) or worse that is a bad actor that doesnt have to be profitable.

Freerider problems exist with all social interaction. And there are a few means to handle it (the below only partly applies to the specific problem above):
1) A centralized entity (state) that sets rules (forbidding behavior that endangers the common good). We all know the problems...
2) A "social ban" ~ traditions, cultural learned behavior that forbids behavior that endangers the common good. Difficult if the group gets to big and depends on the culture; no possibility to "hard code it".
3) Privatization: Doesn't really apply here. With other free rider problems (land or water resource used by everyone) privatization means to give the resource (that in many cases was not owned by anyone before; it has been a public good) to a private person or company. The private person/company then has an incentive to handle the resource with care. Disadvantage: Pressure of short term profit extraction (nowadays; financial markets...). And who should you give the resource to if it never was owned by anyONE?
4) Technical means. Then is is not a freerider problem anymore.
5) Love / Acting for a higher goal. Then there is no freerider problem either because the assumption (maximizing own (material) benefit) is not fulfilled.

Would it be technically possible to evade "pay back delegates"?

....I assume though that shareholders have enough collective intelligence to not vote for pay back delegates ("social ban").

Compared to POW there is less of a pressure to make a profit from pay back delegates. Miners have invested in their mining equipement and they are under pressure to make a profit from it. Also miners have not stake in the network, they don't care about the bitcoin price, with any POS shareholder who also directly or indirectly secure the network this is different.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2014, 09:14:20 am by delulo »