Breaking down voting - Don't vote for happyshares / "pay back delegates"

[bitmeat]

Yay! Competition!

[happyshares]

Hi, I'm new and just starting to learn about DPoS and what I am wondering is why people would spend the time researching about delegates and so on just to give money to someone else? Where is the motivation to actually vote if people are not getting something back?

I have to say my first impression is that a Proof of Stake system which only rewards a select group of insiders, rather than everyone, doesn't appeal to me at the moment, and as such I would probably want to go for one of these pay back delegates just because I would feel like I kind of deserved it as much as them so why shouldn't I get a cut. But I remain open to being convinced otherwise so feel free to tell me why DPoS is better and on what basis I should vote if not for my own benefit.

Hi profitofthegods,

at first glance payback delegates seems to be an appealing business idea. Nevertheless i have decided to cancel the HappyShares venture. After long but fruitful conversations with forum members i got the enlightenment, that payback delegates act counterproductive to BitShares health. This decision was all the harder, since the platform was already nearing publication. Taking advantage of our experience we will soon deliver a voting related webtool to the community.
So, in hope that our decision prevents other guys going in the wrong direction, we want to lead by example.
If you welcome this decision please vote for

Code: [Select]

wallet_approve_delegate voteexplorer.bs-prosper true

[bitbro]

The issue is that Bts x has been released without any functionality.  Oh yeah, Bts, bitcoin can be "currency" - no sorry, they can't. There is no gainful functionality here yet, and until there is people will continue to misunderstand the project.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Riverhead]

My main issue with that is I don't have the first clue who would reinvest into growing the DAC, and don't really have the time or motivation to find out. Think of me as a casual user who just wants to spend a little time using Bitshares, but doesn't have lots of time to spare for becoming a part of the community and getting to know people and so on. Finding out who to vote for seems to me at the moment like something which would require a significant commitment of time and effort, but yet I get nothing back (directly) in return for that effort.

I understand that you would like everyone to be altruistic and to be deeply commited to this project you care about and put effort into making sure it succeeds, but as soon as the user-base expands beyond the small group of commited community members who have been involved in the project for a long time to include general users, that is just not going to happen.

I feel a lot of people fall into your category of adopter and will continue to grow.  However, to vote for "good actors" may not require getting to know each candidate.  Looking at the delegate tab in the client you can base your voting choices on a couple rules of thumb:


1) Who has proven reliability with a high percentage and number of blocks produced?  These people will be the most stable.
2) Do you want to support someone that has multiple delegates or not?  Vote according to preference
3) Do you feel the delegate payments should be higher or lower based on what balance you want to see between shareholder value and customer costs.


Answering these questions while looking at the delegate tab would quickly ween down the list of candidates and allow you to participate in determining the course of the market without a huge time commitment.

[bytemaster]

Hi, I'm new and just starting to learn about DPoS and what I am wondering is why people would spend the time researching about delegates and so on just to give money to someone else? Where is the motivation to actually vote if people are not getting something back?

I have to say my first impression is that a Proof of Stake system which only rewards a select group of insiders, rather than everyone, doesn't appeal to me at the moment, and as such I would probably want to go for one of these pay back delegates just because I would feel like I kind of deserved it as much as them so why shouldn't I get a cut. But I remain open to being convinced otherwise so feel free to tell me why DPoS is better and on what basis I should vote if not for my own benefit.

They are doing a job on your behalf (validating the blocks) and their margins are very thin meaning there isn't all that much "profit" in it.   You want to vote because the delegates are working to make your stake more valuable so you vote for those you trust to REINVEST into growing the DAC.

My main issue with that is I don't have the first clue who would reinvest into growing the DAC, and don't really have the time or motivation to find out. Think of me as a casual user who just wants to spend a little time using Bitshares, but doesn't have lots of time to spare for becoming a part of the community and getting to know people and so on. Finding out who to vote for seems to me at the moment like something which would require a significant commitment of time and effort, but yet I get nothing back (directly) in return for that effort.

I understand that you would like everyone to be altruistic and to be deeply commited to this project you care about and put effort into making sure it succeeds, but as soon as the user-base expands beyond the small group of commited community members who have been involved in the project for a long time to include general users, that is just not going to happen.

And this is why we have automatic voting based upon the simple assumption that you trust the person you downloaded the wallet from.   For this type of user you care about the service the network provides and want it to 'just work'.   We also have a built in recommendation system which means you can simply trust your friendly neighborhood DAC expert to make good recommendations and vote accordingly.

[bitmeat]

Newbie question - how do you guys take those snapshots of your screens?

I just use PrntScrn on PC and Cmd+Shift+4 on Mac. You have to specify what platform. SnagIt is a very good software but might cost $$.

[profitofthegods]

Hi, I'm new and just starting to learn about DPoS and what I am wondering is why people would spend the time researching about delegates and so on just to give money to someone else? Where is the motivation to actually vote if people are not getting something back?

I have to say my first impression is that a Proof of Stake system which only rewards a select group of insiders, rather than everyone, doesn't appeal to me at the moment, and as such I would probably want to go for one of these pay back delegates just because I would feel like I kind of deserved it as much as them so why shouldn't I get a cut. But I remain open to being convinced otherwise so feel free to tell me why DPoS is better and on what basis I should vote if not for my own benefit.

They are doing a job on your behalf (validating the blocks) and their margins are very thin meaning there isn't all that much "profit" in it.   You want to vote because the delegates are working to make your stake more valuable so you vote for those you trust to REINVEST into growing the DAC.

My main issue with that is I don't have the first clue who would reinvest into growing the DAC, and don't really have the time or motivation to find out. Think of me as a casual user who just wants to spend a little time using Bitshares, but doesn't have lots of time to spare for becoming a part of the community and getting to know people and so on. Finding out who to vote for seems to me at the moment like something which would require a significant commitment of time and effort, but yet I get nothing back (directly) in return for that effort.

I understand that you would like everyone to be altruistic and to be deeply commited to this project you care about and put effort into making sure it succeeds, but as soon as the user-base expands beyond the small group of commited community members who have been involved in the project for a long time to include general users, that is just not going to happen.

[santaclause102]

Hi, I'm new and just starting to learn about DPoS and what I am wondering is why people would spend the time researching about delegates and so on just to give money to someone else? Where is the motivation to actually vote if people are not getting something back?

I have to say my first impression is that a Proof of Stake system which only rewards a select group of insiders, rather than everyone, doesn't appeal to me at the moment, and as such I would probably want to go for one of these pay back delegates just because I would feel like I kind of deserved it as much as them so why shouldn't I get a cut. But I remain open to being convinced otherwise so feel free to tell me why DPoS is better and on what basis I should vote if not for my own benefit.

If you are a stakeholder you are motivated to vote for whoever can provide the most trustworthy and reliable service to secure the network. If you as a shareholder would vote against this principle you increase the chance that your stake gets worth less because the system is less secure.

I highly recommend listening to this. http://letstalkbitcoin.com/blog/post/lets-talk-bitcoin-129-dogeparty-and-delegated-proof-of-stake
Pay back delegates could become a problem if everyone has that logic. But what you get back from them is tiny compared to the potential losses from an unstable / too centralized system. We have to educate shareholders about this though! Or form a consensus among slate selectors that pay back delegates are not acceptable.
But Bitcoin / POW has the exact same problem. See the interview...

[bytemaster]

Hi, I'm new and just starting to learn about DPoS and what I am wondering is why people would spend the time researching about delegates and so on just to give money to someone else? Where is the motivation to actually vote if people are not getting something back?

I have to say my first impression is that a Proof of Stake system which only rewards a select group of insiders, rather than everyone, doesn't appeal to me at the moment, and as such I would probably want to go for one of these pay back delegates just because I would feel like I kind of deserved it as much as them so why shouldn't I get a cut. But I remain open to being convinced otherwise so feel free to tell me why DPoS is better and on what basis I should vote if not for my own benefit.

They are doing a job on your behalf (validating the blocks) and their margins are very thin meaning there isn't all that much "profit" in it.   You want to vote because the delegates are working to make your stake more valuable so you vote for those you trust to REINVEST into growing the DAC.   

[profitofthegods]

Hi, I'm new and just starting to learn about DPoS and what I am wondering is why people would spend the time researching about delegates and so on just to give money to someone else? Where is the motivation to actually vote if people are not getting something back?

I have to say my first impression is that a Proof of Stake system which only rewards a select group of insiders, rather than everyone, doesn't appeal to me at the moment, and as such I would probably want to go for one of these pay back delegates just because I would feel like I kind of deserved it as much as them so why shouldn't I get a cut. But I remain open to being convinced otherwise so feel free to tell me why DPoS is better and on what basis I should vote if not for my own benefit.

[puppies]

Ah.   Apparently my reading comprehension is lacking this late at night.

[Simeon II]

Unmaximize the window and it will switch from two columns with less info to one column with more info including pay rate.  You just can't look at top 101 and standby side by side.

I know, I figured that out  - see my post. Still weird –haven not seen this in any other app.

[edit]
My experience suggest that probably the first few columns are with defined width and the rest is left for the last one (i.e. last one uses whatever % is left) . In full screen not enough space is left, so it is cut out.

[puppies]

This issue is not solved in v. 0.2.2 win7.
I am again missing the column (weird enough on of the two I most care about – pay pate) in full screen mode. Said column magically appears in smaller screen.

Unmaximize the window and it will switch from two columns with less info to one column with more info including pay rate.  You just can't look at top 101 and standby side by side.

[Simeon II]

This issue is not solved in v. 0.2.2 win7.
I am again missing the column (weird enough on of the two I most care about – pay pate) in full screen mode. Said column magically appears in smaller screen.

[Simeon II]

I think, I will stick with the buggy 0.2.0 for now.

 Too many break-through ideas for my likings:
-I should take good care of my public keys (instead of just the private ones);

- I will send to names not accounts;

- I would not always be able to find/see my transaction history (but my received amount will be fine) – this is the most troubling though –what if I expect 100 BTSX from 50 people at one and the same time, how do I figure out who paid and who did not?

Receiving shouldn't be a problem, the receivers account should pick up all transactions and report them in the ledger just fine.   We will get most of these bugs worked out in the next week.

I hope you know that this not always the case now, right!

I am working on this. Please pm me any threads of people having this problem so that I won't miss them.

https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=5799.msg78740#msg78740

[vikram]

I think, I will stick with the buggy 0.2.0 for now.

 Too many break-through ideas for my likings:
-I should take good care of my public keys (instead of just the private ones);

- I will send to names not accounts;

- I would not always be able to find/see my transaction history (but my received amount will be fine) – this is the most troubling though –what if I expect 100 BTSX from 50 people at one and the same time, how do I figure out who paid and who did not?

Receiving shouldn't be a problem, the receivers account should pick up all transactions and report them in the ledger just fine.   We will get most of these bugs worked out in the next week.

I hope you know that this not always the case now, right!

I am working on this. Please pm me any threads of people having this problem so that I won't miss them.

[Simeon II]

I think, I will stick with the buggy 0.2.0 for now.

 Too many break-through ideas for my likings:
-I should take good care of my public keys (instead of just the private ones);

- I will send to names not accounts;

- I would not always be able to find/see my transaction history (but my received amount will be fine) – this is the most troubling though –what if I expect 100 BTSX from 50 people at one and the same time, how do I figure out who paid and who did not?

Receiving shouldn't be a problem, the receivers account should pick up all transactions and report them in the ledger just fine.   We will get most of these bugs worked out in the next week.

I hope you know that this not always the case now, right!

[bytemaster]

I think, I will stick with the buggy 0.2.0 for now.

 Too many break-through ideas for my likings:
-I should take good care of my public keys (instead of just the private ones);

- I will send to names not accounts;

- I would not always be able to find/see my transaction history (but my received amount will be fine) – this is the most troubling though –what if I expect 100 BTSX from 50 people at one and the same time, how do I figure out who paid and who did not?

Receiving shouldn't be a problem, the receivers account should pick up all transactions and report them in the ledger just fine.   We will get most of these bugs worked out in the next week.   

[Simeon II]

I think, I will stick with the buggy 0.2.0 for now.

 Too many break-through ideas for my likings:
-I should take good care of my public keys (instead of just the private ones);

- I will send to names not accounts;

- I would not always be able to find/see my transaction history (but my received amount will be fine) – this is the most troubling though –what if I expect 100 BTSX from 50 people at one and the same time, how do I figure out who paid and who did not?

[Riverhead]

May be worth copying out your %AppData%\Bitshares X\wallets directory and re-installing the client.  Version 2.1 is out now....

The whole directory or just the wallet file?

I'd do the whole "wallets" directory.  I only say that because I'm not sure of the architecture.  There doesn't seem to be a wallets.dat type single file.  Check out this thread: https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=5874.msg79054#msg79054  BM seems to agree with this method.

[Simeon II]

May be worth copying out your %AppData%\Bitshares X\wallets directory and re-installing the client.  Version 2.1 is out now....

The whole directory or just the wallet file?

[Riverhead]

May be worth copying out your %AppData%\Bitshares X\wallets directory and re-installing the client.  Version 2.1 is out now....

[Simeon II]

yeeh right... I think I can theoretically find a compiler (if they are still called compilers), learn to use it and build it myself... but the last time I did so was 10 years ago... As you see I did not know I had such a cool ‘snappy tool’ on my laptop... so I just clicked on the exe....


[edit] Please do not tell me they are no longer called ‘compilers’ and/or they come free and easy with my windows…

[Riverhead]

Thank you both.

WTF?  How is that possible?  Did you build from source or use the .exe?

[Riverhead]

Newbie question - how do you guys take those snapshots of your screens?

In Windows 7 hit the winKey and S and it activates the snipping tool. Then just save it and upload to imgur.com. You don't even need an account or to be logged into imgur and it gives you all the links on the right side.

Actually once you snip it you can just cntr-v it into imgur.  No need to save .

[Simeon II]

Thank you both.

[Ggozzo]

Newbie question - how do you guys take those snapshots of your screens?

In Windows 7 hit the winKey and S and it activates the snipping tool. Then just save it and upload to imgur.com. You don't even need an account or to be logged into imgur and it gives you all the links on the right side.

[Riverhead]

Newbie question - how do you guys take those snapshots of your screens?

I use Snipping Tool in Windows, then go to http://imgur.com/ and click the "Upload image" button then cntr-v, upload button, then click on the picture after it loads to see the full size and then right-click copy image url and then use the image button on the forum.


Example from my last post: http://imgur.com/FVSKxKi

[Simeon II]

Newbie question - how do you guys take those snapshots of your screens?

[Simeon II]

0.2.0.... of course the client does not have 'help' button...

... yes installed from 'BitSharesX-0.2.0.exe'

[Riverhead]

You can see their pay rate on the GUI, 5th column, literally right next to the approve button...

I cannot! As I am saying from last night!

For me they go:
NAME   APPROVAL   RELIABILITY   BLOCKS PRODUCED   APPROVE

What version of the client are you on?  I see the following in the gui and CLI:

Code: [Select]


ID    NAME (* next in line)           APPROVAL       PRODUCED MISSED   RELIABILITY   PAY RATE PAY BALANCE         LAST BLOCK
============================================================================================================================
266   testz                           4.1826375369 % 128      19       87.07 %       100 %    65.17789 BTSX       15875
313   jabbajabba                      3.9854911852 % 98       5        95.15 %       50 %     29.87895 BTSX       15835
318   clout-delegate2                 3.9160642987 % 104      9        92.04 %       100 %    68.73253 BTSX       15815
320   clout-delegate5                 3.9160641627 % 102      15       87.18 %       100 %    66.01369 BTSX       15861
317   clout-delegate1                 3.9160641548 % 100      11       90.09 %       100 %    65.85485 BTSX       15824
321   clout-delegate4                 3.9160641166 % 104      12       89.66 %       100 %    65.09197 BTSX       15848
319   clout-delegate3                 3.9160639858 % 95       17       84.82 %       100 %    62.47622 BTSX       15890
307   daslab                          3.9030978905 % 136      25       84.47 %       100 %    64.63434 BTSX       15857
299   bitsuperlab                     3.9030477969 % 156      5        96.89 %       100 %    63.73583 BTSX       15792
28    init27                          3.8980479130 % 172      0        100.00 %      100 %    73.27050 BTSX       15845
27    init26                          3.8980478635 % 165      0        100.00 %      100 %    72.28016 BTSX       15884
40    init39                          3.8980478622 % 167      1        99.40 %       100 %    72.25481 BTSX       15870
95    init94                          3.8980478610 % 167      0        100.00 %      100 %    72.23095 BTSX       15788
49    init48                          3.8980478466 % 168      0        100.00 %      100 %    71.94331 BTSX       15766
87    init86                          3.8980478456 % 171      2        98.84 %       100 %    71.92200 BTSX       15866
42    init41                          3.8980478335 % 165      1        99.40 %       100 %    71.68102 BTSX       15854
64    init63                          3.8980478325 % 167      0        100.00 %      100 %    71.66141 BTSX       15807
45    init44                          3.8980478087 % 163      0        100.00 %      100 %    71.18498 BTSX       15832
22    init21                          3.8980478004 % 167      0        100.00 %      100 %    71.01892 BTSX       15874


[toast]

You can see their pay rate on the GUI, 5th column, literally right next to the approve button...

I cannot! As I am saying from last night!

For me they go:
NAME   APPROVAL   RELIABILITY   BLOCKS PRODUCED   APPROVE

o.o



OS / version?

[Simeon II]

You can see their pay rate on the GUI, 5th column, literally right next to the approve button...

I cannot! As I am saying from last night!

For me they go:
NAME   APPROVAL   RELIABILITY   BLOCKS PRODUCED   APPROVE

[toast]

Assuming $4/BTSX in a span of 1-1.5years, this delegate (singular) has made ~300*4= $1200 for a day. During time when there is NO actual trading (expect 5 to 5000 fold increase with trading).

 And he is doing what exactly ?

318   clout-delegate2                 3.9160652063 % 99       9        91.67 %       100 %    62.59274 BTSX       15281     
317   clout-delegate1                 3.9160650623 % 95       11       89.62 %       100 %    59.71459 BTSX       15260     
321   clout-delegate4                 3.9160650243 % 99       12       89.19 %       100 %    58.95391 BTSX       15334     
320   clout-delegate5                 3.9160650090 % 96       15       86.49 %       100 %    58.64804 BTSX       15287     
319   clout-delegate3                 3.9160647706 % 88       17       83.81 %       100 %    53.88070 BTSX       15253     



*No offence clout I am all for taking advantage of the opportunities when they present themselves.

Is that saying he made ~58 BTS per block? How many transactions?

Have you heard about the humongous asset registration fees currently at 148,446.95040 BTSX.

You thought they go to shareholders right? No no no they go to DELEGATES!

Dude... every single fee in the system "goes to delegates!!1", which can choose to burn them. Shareholders elect delegates that burn the proportion they want.

Dude... you are smart enough to know this is stupid stupid stupid !

And tell me what is the current burn rate 1%, hardly??

So that means the shareholders prefer delegates that keep the money for themselves, at least this early on when there is no competition...
If the 3% of voting stake wanted delegates that burned all the fees, then they could make delegates that burn all the fees and vote them in.

"Paying to delegates" is the same as "pay rate upper bound". What shall we fix it at, 80% 50%?

And the interface (as is now) encourages greedy delegates. Example – you have to go to the console to find actual fees for each delegate. So the lazy voters – read 75% of all voters – will just check the GUI data provided and eventually vote…

You can see their pay rate on the GUI, 5th column, literally right next to the approve button...

[Simeon II]

But when the market comes to life the transaction will increase manifold.

And the interface (as is now) encourages greedy delegates. Example – you have to go to the console to find actual fees for each delegate. So the lazy voters – read 75% of all voters – will just check the GUI data provided and eventually vote…

[Riverhead]

Dude... you are smart enough to know this is stupid stupid stupid !

And tell me what is the current burn rate 1%, hardly? ?

The asset registration should slow down as price increases.  I can see maybe one or two assets a month being created....maybe...but most will just trade the standard Market assets.  Unless an asset is really compelling it's not worth the price to create it.  Also, I think there is a bit of a feeling of monopoly money right now as people got a seemingly high number of BTSX for their PTS.

[Simeon II]

Assuming $4/BTSX in a span of 1-1.5years, this delegate (singular) has made ~300*4= $1200 for a day. During time when there is NO actual trading (expect 5 to 5000 fold increase with trading).

 And he is doing what exactly ?

318   clout-delegate2                 3.9160652063 % 99       9        91.67 %       100 %    62.59274 BTSX       15281     
317   clout-delegate1                 3.9160650623 % 95       11       89.62 %       100 %    59.71459 BTSX       15260     
321   clout-delegate4                 3.9160650243 % 99       12       89.19 %       100 %    58.95391 BTSX       15334     
320   clout-delegate5                 3.9160650090 % 96       15       86.49 %       100 %    58.64804 BTSX       15287     
319   clout-delegate3                 3.9160647706 % 88       17       83.81 %       100 %    53.88070 BTSX       15253     



*No offence clout I am all for taking advantage of the opportunities when they present themselves.

Is that saying he made ~58 BTS per block? How many transactions?

Have you heard about the humongous asset registration fees currently at 148,446.95040 BTSX.

You thought they go to shareholders right? No no no they go to DELEGATES!

Dude... every single fee in the system "goes to delegates!!1", which can choose to burn them. Shareholders elect delegates that burn the proportion they want.

Dude... you are smart enough to know this is stupid stupid stupid !

And tell me what is the current burn rate 1%, hardly??

[toast]

Assuming $4/BTSX in a span of 1-1.5years, this delegate (singular) has made ~300*4= $1200 for a day. During time when there is NO actual trading (expect 5 to 5000 fold increase with trading).

 And he is doing what exactly ?

318   clout-delegate2                 3.9160652063 % 99       9        91.67 %       100 %    62.59274 BTSX       15281     
317   clout-delegate1                 3.9160650623 % 95       11       89.62 %       100 %    59.71459 BTSX       15260     
321   clout-delegate4                 3.9160650243 % 99       12       89.19 %       100 %    58.95391 BTSX       15334     
320   clout-delegate5                 3.9160650090 % 96       15       86.49 %       100 %    58.64804 BTSX       15287     
319   clout-delegate3                 3.9160647706 % 88       17       83.81 %       100 %    53.88070 BTSX       15253     



*No offence clout I am all for taking advantage of the opportunities when they present themselves.

Is that saying he made ~58 BTS per block? How many transactions?

Have you heard about the humongous asset registration fees currently at 148,446.95040 BTSX.

You thought they go to shareholders right? No no no they go to DELEGATES!

Dude... every single fee in the system "goes to delegates!!1", which can choose to burn them. Shareholders elect delegates that burn the proportion they want.

[Ggozzo]

Wow. So does it go to one lucky delegate who produces the block the registration fee is included in?

[Simeon II]

Assuming $4/BTSX in a span of 1-1.5years, this delegate (singular) has made ~300*4= $1200 for a day. During time when there is NO actual trading (expect 5 to 5000 fold increase with trading).

 And he is doing what exactly ?

318   clout-delegate2                 3.9160652063 % 99       9        91.67 %       100 %    62.59274 BTSX       15281     
317   clout-delegate1                 3.9160650623 % 95       11       89.62 %       100 %    59.71459 BTSX       15260     
321   clout-delegate4                 3.9160650243 % 99       12       89.19 %       100 %    58.95391 BTSX       15334     
320   clout-delegate5                 3.9160650090 % 96       15       86.49 %       100 %    58.64804 BTSX       15287     
319   clout-delegate3                 3.9160647706 % 88       17       83.81 %       100 %    53.88070 BTSX       15253     



*No offence clout I am all for taking advantage of the opportunities when they present themselves.

Is that saying he made ~58 BTS per block? How many transactions?

Have you heard about the humongous asset registration fees currently at 148,446.95040 BTSX.

You thought they go to shareholders right? No no no they go to DELEGATES!

[Ggozzo]

Assuming $4/BTSX in a span of 1-1.5years, this delegate (singular) has made ~300*4= $1200 for a day. During time when there is NO actual trading (expect 5 to 5000 fold increase with trading).

 And he is doing what exactly ?

318   clout-delegate2                 3.9160652063 % 99       9        91.67 %       100 %    62.59274 BTSX       15281     
317   clout-delegate1                 3.9160650623 % 95       11       89.62 %       100 %    59.71459 BTSX       15260     
321   clout-delegate4                 3.9160650243 % 99       12       89.19 %       100 %    58.95391 BTSX       15334     
320   clout-delegate5                 3.9160650090 % 96       15       86.49 %       100 %    58.64804 BTSX       15287     
319   clout-delegate3                 3.9160647706 % 88       17       83.81 %       100 %    53.88070 BTSX       15253     



*No offence clout I am all for taking advantage of the opportunities when they present themselves.

Is that saying he made ~58 BTS per block? How many transactions?

[Simeon II]

Assuming $4/BTSX in a span of 1-1.5years, this delegate (singular) has made ~300*4= $1200 for a day. During time when there is NO actual trading (expect 5 to 5000 fold increase with trading).

 And he is doing what exactly ?

318   clout-delegate2                 3.9160652063 % 99       9        91.67 %       100 %    62.59274 BTSX       15281     
317   clout-delegate1                 3.9160650623 % 95       11       89.62 %       100 %    59.71459 BTSX       15260     
321   clout-delegate4                 3.9160650243 % 99       12       89.19 %       100 %    58.95391 BTSX       15334     
320   clout-delegate5                 3.9160650090 % 96       15       86.49 %       100 %    58.64804 BTSX       15287     
319   clout-delegate3                 3.9160647706 % 88       17       83.81 %       100 %    53.88070 BTSX       15253     



*No offence clout I am all for taking advantage of the opportunities when they present themselves.

[santaclause102]

OK, I see you already found justification why most delegates charge 100% fees.
I have other/simpler explanation - GREED!

I dont understand. Can you repeat in other words?

[Simeon II]

OK, I see you already found justification why most delegates charge 100% fees.

I have other/simpler explanation - GREED!

[santaclause102]

The freerider problem: Delegates can use the money for everybody (dividends, marketing, build the ecosystem) or they can pay it back to the voters. Shareholders can maximize their gains if they voted for the latter and everyone else would vote for the first.

Can you further elaborate on this? It might be obvious and it is very late and I am going to sleep but I think this discussion is important in order to avoid what you have described.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tragedy_of_the_commons
From the perspective of the individual shareholder that tries to maximize his benefit, the best (of all options) would be if (1) he approved as many delegates that give part or all of the delegate reward back as possible but (2) no other shareholder would act this way. Because then our shareholder has the best of two worlds: A stable and decentralized network which he profits from through a stable share price / an appreciation in share value. And he also has gotten the pay back from the "pay back delegates".
This is a freerider PROBLEM though because if everyone followed this rationale then the network would not be centralized anymore because shareholders would give all their votes to the one admin/provider of several delegates that pays back the most (in the long run this ends up being one delegate because of economies of scale if he needs to be profitable) or worse that is a bad actor that doesnt have to be profitable.

Freerider problems exist with all social interaction. And there are a few means to handle it (the below only partly applies to the specific problem above):
1) A centralized entity (state) that sets rules (forbidding behavior that endangers the common good). We all know the problems...
2) A "social ban" ~ traditions, cultural learned behavior that forbids behavior that endangers the common good. Difficult if the group gets to big and depends on the culture; no possibility to "hard code it".
3) Privatization: Doesn't really apply here. With other free rider problems (land or water resource used by everyone) privatization means to give the resource (that in many cases was not owned by anyone before; it has been a public good) to a private person or company. The private person/company then has an incentive to handle the resource with care. Disadvantage: Pressure of short term profit extraction (nowadays; financial markets...). And who should you give the resource to if it never was owned by anyONE?
4) Technical means. Then is is not a freerider problem anymore.
5) Love / Acting for a higher goal. Then there is no freerider problem either because the assumption (maximizing own (material) benefit) is not fulfilled.

Would it be technically possible to evade "pay back delegates"?

....I assume though that shareholders have enough collective intelligence to not vote for pay back delegates ("social ban").

Compared to POW there is less of a pressure to make a profit from pay back delegates. Miners have invested in their mining equipement and they are under pressure to make a profit from it. Also miners have not stake in the network, they don't care about the bitcoin price, with any POS shareholder who also directly or indirectly secure the network this is different.

[mf-tzo]

The freerider problem: Delegates can use the money for everybody (dividends, marketing, build the ecosystem) or they can pay it back to the voters. Shareholders can maximize their gains if they voted for the latter and everyone else would vote for the first.

Can you further elaborate on this? It might be obvious and it is very late and I am going to sleep but I think this discussion is important in order to avoid what you have described.

[santaclause102]

Profit margins will eventually squeeze out this kind of behavior (unless delegates are paid more than transaction fees)

If somebody wanted to attack the network this would still be the cheapest option and the little loss through tx fees wouldnt matter. And the freerider problem exists anyway.

The freerider problem: Delegates can use the money for everybody (dividends, marketing, build the ecosystem) or they can pay it back to the voters. Shareholders can maximize their gains if they voted for the latter and everyone else would vote for the first. Also true: The gains are tiny compared to the losses / potential damage if everyone would vote this way. Let's hope people are aware of this enough.

Analogy to POW: A pool operator offering zero or even negative fees to bitcoin miners (paying bitcoin miners to mine with his pool) might gain 51% this way. The equivalent would be a pay back to voters "pool" that offers to pay back the whole reward (~ghash) respectively a tx fees + x for your vote delegate.

I think we should make it clear that "pay for votes" delegates have the potential to lead to centralization. Also everyone should be aware of the fact that the gains through tx fees are a fraction of the potential loss in share value due to a potential centralization.

If shareholders would all be short term shareholders and would have no social / idealistic motive this would be a problem.

[bytemaster]

Give back to the voters requires the delegates to actually produce blocks.

There is a large contingent of honest shareholders that will not approve of that kind of behavior. 

Profit margins will eventually squeeze out this kind of behavior (unless delegates are paid more than transaction fees)

[santaclause102]

More detailed explanation why we souldn't give "pay back delegates" a perspective right from the start is here https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=5868.msg78966#msg78966

Goals (arranged acc. to subjective importance, most important first):
(1) Minimizing the influence of (obviously) bad actors.
(2) Prevent centralization. Source for centralization https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=5775.0 There might be a free rider (group trap) problem depending on how high the tx fees are that you get back for voting for the giving back delegate. I think it is likely that people can not estimate how much they can loose (together with everyone else) in relation to what they gain and simply take the additional gain because it is the most obvious benefit. Then the free rider problem is there no matter what the estimate is approximately in reality. (2) is interrelated to (1) as a bad actor could use the pay bcak to voters scheme as a means to gain control. But decentralization also has benefits of it's own so it is an own own point.
(3) Maximum representation (= percentage of shares equals percentage of approved delegates).

Instruments / suggestions:
(a) delegation of votes (= your voting power is distributed among those you vote for)
(b) approval voting (= you can give as many delegates as you want (variant: only a limited amount of delegates) your approval, each approval vote has the same weight.
(c) negative votes (= vote against a delegates in style (a) or in style (b)). Variant (d): Negatives votes could be weighted more than the positive votes (e.g. 1 negative vote + 2 positive votes = 0). Variant (e): limit the amounts of negative votes in case negative votes are style (b) / via disapproval voting. 

Effects/propositions:
- (a) and (b) equally lead to (2) if people perception is that they gain more from voting for the delegates that pays out the most tx fees to his voters compared to his competing delegates and/or if the actually gain/looses estimate is in favor of such behavior.
- approval voting is better to minimize the influence of a potentially bad actor.
- In the end negative votes is the same as positive votes. Just the procedure is different. Right? (didn't think long about this)   

I don't know if "the give back to voters" attack can be prevented without a "social ban". I don't know a solution. Ask a game theory specialist...