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Messages - fuzzy

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406
General Discussion / Re: bitSHARES - As True Shares and Not a Currency!
« on: February 11, 2016, 07:08:25 pm »
Sooo is this change going to happen? Maybe we could talk about it in tomorrow's mumble.

Um... definitely.  I am more interested though in talking about how we are going to start testing things before we implement them.  And I mean this with respect to how we actually assess the value of doing these things.

We can talk about it all day, but really need more actual real world data collection on these ideas...

407
Marketplace / Re: Job. My site. 500 BTS per hour.
« on: February 11, 2016, 05:25:59 pm »
No reaction. We are talking about a couple of hours playing around and make it a bit nicer. To help someone, and the whole BTS project.

ill look into how i can help.  i need to brush up on html and css anyway. it might not be when you want it done but i can prob fond some time.

408
General Discussion / Re: Why I like Ethereum [BLOG POST]
« on: February 11, 2016, 05:18:41 pm »
Just now read the article and wanted to make a comment. Particularly in regards to what you'd do differently. Doing all of this in memory kind of defeats the purpose of having stored data. It adds speed, that is true, but there are problems in regards to having truly decentralized applications and to have them be verifiable. On the other hand, the way Bitshares operates it would likely not be an issue mainly due to the way that the consensus algo operates. As for the merkle tri-graph, I would like to hear why it is redundant. It is very much expensive, that is true, but if you want a truly decentralized and trustless application, it is somewhat necessary. But again, I can see why you'd do it this way due to the Bitshares algo as the goal in the algo is not to be trustless, just to be decentralized. There are tradeoffs to everything. In any case. Hope all is well.

btw, everyone please congratulate vor as he was hired by gavin to continue his work on solidity. :)

409
General Discussion / Re: bitSHARES - As True Shares and Not a Currency!
« on: February 11, 2016, 04:59:01 pm »
Tonyk's idea is getting sweeter.

Do you think he deserves some brownies? Ha hah aha hahahah aha haahhahah ahahahhahahhahha ahah!

best not to insult when possible.  tony did a good job getting the discussions going. so i am personally happy with giving him something of real value as a tip. 

#sharebits "tonyk" 100 BTS
#sharebits "tonyk" 10 COPPERTICKET

410
General Discussion / Re: bitSHARES - As True Shares and Not a Currency!
« on: February 11, 2016, 04:52:17 pm »
There is one more possible alternative:

3: Forked bts into a Baby net and test the concept on the Baby net.  Baby net starts with a low valuation and sharedrops 100% on bts.  Once it is proven a success, Baby net can be merged back into the parent bts.
As a low value token, the BabyBTS is unable to support (or create) so much BabyUSD which is needed to pay for witnesses and workers. Without demand, the market become illiquid, then black swain event will occur, then BabyUSD become not fully backed. Then the baby die.

?

We need bootstrap.

All babies cannot feed themselves.  If this idea indeed materialised into a forked Baby net by the bitshares community, I believe there would be a good number of donors and volunteers to be its low-pay witnesses, and to see it grow.

sharedrop a portion of "babyshares" onto other projects to give them a stake in it?

411
General Discussion / Re: bitSHARES - As True Shares and Not a Currency!
« on: February 11, 2016, 07:50:30 am »
As to how i say we test it, that is open for discussion.  I am no expert daytrader and do not have the same skillset that comes along with it, but in my opinion could do the following:

we run it as a test on the testnet might be a good way. 

So we essentially let people.buy into a competition to see who will end up with the most cash from trading the market...use the buy in and maybe double it using a worker reward and then we can even put up a reddit thread inviting people to join in the competition.  get daytraders TRYING bitshares while they are part of the experiment.  Then you will have effectively used a trading competition to bot only rest it but also promote bitshares THE EXPERIMENT (which is an important distinction for those who might want to join forces) at the same time.  Heck it might even recruit people who have answers i and the rest of the forum may never give you...

The usual problem is, it is hard to simulate real money with fake money (think about how totally boring poker is, when played for fake chips).
[I understand your proposal gives real value to the winner(s). Just thinking about the 'no real loss for the rest" issues/implications.]
I will give it more thought tomorrow fuzz.

We were talking about testing the idea in testnet in Telegram but the disadvantage of a testnet as you pointed out : - we cannot mimic the live network because the risk of losing one's monies is not the same as lossing someone else's monies.


Cause for me there are only 2 choice, really.
1. BM: "dShares just got more interesting."
or
2. TK: "BM is not on board as chief dev. So we are forking and keeping 5-7% as a development fund. The rest is 100% dropped on BTS"

There is one more possible alternative:

3: Forked bts into a Baby net and test the concept on the Baby net.  Baby net starts with a low valuation and sharedrops 100% on bts.  Once it is proven a success, Baby net can be merged back into the parent bts.

if you buy into a poker match...people slowly dwindle as they lose their funds and the stakes naturally go up as the same amount of funds is held by fewer (and more skilled players).  So the money you get from being a top trader becomes yours.  and since there is a buyin you ARE risking money, but as you gain money and continue playing the game, you also have added the risk of lost time and effort onto the risk of losing accrued money.  i say make a fixed price buy in and we consider using a worker proposal to double the winnings to the individual who wins. 

Or instead of a worker...we get projects from the bitshares ecosystem and beyond to sponsor the event with their own tokens and we use them to add to the pot (to encourage more participation).

the more i think about it though there will not be any way to award this to a single person, but rather something like the top 10% of those who participate...i am sure i am overlooking some other potential factors but this is very worth looking into.

doing it right and well would require us to collectively use our resources....and imho we should take the time to do it right and get others outside our community to join in, but man would it be worth it.  @ccedk and @fav might be two good people to bring onboard for marketing it around the net.  but there are many others...

412
General Discussion / Re: bitSHARES - As True Shares and Not a Currency!
« on: February 11, 2016, 06:27:32 am »
As to how i say we test it, that is open for discussion.  I am no expert daytrader and do not have the same skillset that comes along with it, but in my opinion could do the following:

we run it as a test on the testnet might be a good way. 

So we essentially let people.buy into a competition to see who will end up with the most cash from trading the market...use the buy in and maybe double it using a worker reward and then we can even put up a reddit thread inviting people to join in the competition.  get daytraders TRYING bitshares while they are part of the experiment.  Then you will have effectively used a trading competition to bot only rest it but also promote bitshares THE EXPERIMENT (which is an important distinction for those who might want to join forces) at the same time.  Heck it might even recruit people who have answers i and the rest of the forum may never give you...

413
Lets test it.  Can we discuss how this might be done?  as this shapes up the idea looks like something that is pretty elegant and almost seems as though it should have been obvious before.  but we really need to start testing big changes before making them so we can assess what we may or may not know about that might be problematic. 

love the idea and looking forward to seeing a successful test

Well, fist of all when did you get me off your ignore list?  :)

Second of all, I am truly aware that I am #4 on your most dangerous list [shortly after CH, eth and the gov]. I do not know who give you that I idea...and it does not really matter if it was someone that "has a real good vision and wide wing span" or it was your own imagination. What  matters is that it is totally not true!

And third but the only real important question is : How you see this test playing out in real life? [and when you see those choses I am sure You will not be eager to jump in either scenario too soon]

Cause for me there are only 2 choice, really.
1. BM: "dShares just got more interesting."
or
2. TK: "BM is not on board as chief dev. So we are forking and keeping 5-7% as a development fund. The rest is 100% dropped on BTS"

This is not really the thread to talk through it man. There have been many pms ago when i gave up on thinking anything would change on that front.  Though in fairness it should be obvious i do not ignore ALL of your posts (the ones searching for solutions are the ones i feel merit my time, energy and cognitive faculties).

414
Lets test it.  Can we discuss how this might be done?  as this shapes up the idea looks like something that is pretty elegant and almost seems as though it should have been obvious before.  but we really need to start testing big changes before making them so we can assess what we may or may not know about that might be problematic. 

love the idea and looking forward to seeing a successful test

415
Tony, this is a great idea :)  Almost makes up for all of your other posts!

The way I understand it is that the only way to enter or exit a BTS position is through the internal market.

This would end up cutting off any exchange that didn't become a gateway *or* list BitUSD.  The impact would be to get BTS off of the exchanges.

The work around would be for an exchange to offer EXCHANGE.BTS that they offer to buy/sell at 1:1... then you transfer EXCHANGE.BTS into the exchange. This extra difficulty would probably cause the internal exchange to be preferred and few exchanges would jump through that hoop.

The only downside is that the value of BTS would fall in the short-term due to loss of liquidity.  The conversion would take a long time as people would need to withdraw from exchanges before the shares get locked up.

which considering the timing is not exactly a great thing in a market  where all most care about is market cap.   So i guess the questions is if the downsides outweigh the benefits. 

Regardless it is certainly awesome to see such a productive and solution oriented approach!

416
just posted it (among other good consequences)  :):

https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php/topic,21409.msg278321/topicseen.html#msg278321

cool ideas but why not just simplify it and make a decentralized gateway so all tokens traded are actually backed by the real thing?  bts collateral could be held as a backstop to protect against black swans (and used to create a derivatives market AFTER the actual asset-backed market exists).

We could do this today with fiat and crypto alike...and perhaps we could make deals with gold repositories for some sort of multisig option to be used with partner exchanges with real shares. An i missing somethi g that makes this a bad idea?  perhaps.  but it makes sense to me to actually have IOUs that are backed by the real thing in a decentralizdd fashion...THEN we can use our own exchanges prices for the derivatives market (which only makes sense to come after the "grounded" market grows up).

417
All the polls I see on this forum have poorly worded options. I know this one is a jokey one but all the others I see don't offer enough choice or steer the answer with their wording.

If you are gonna do a poll try and make so it can represent people opinions well.

not all of them, and since when is it that we use "other people are doing it" as a legitimate excuse to consider it a means of validating ANYTHING? 
maybe it is my training but i hate polls that are obviously skewed.

also, just for satan to recognize...when you let people view results  BEFORE voting you obfuscate the truth...which means i will not oarticipate in this poll-- even if there may be valid concerns. until bitcoinsatan can put together a post that seeks to measure reality, i will sit back and lol at the irony of this situation.

See BM's thread where he shared the blog post. This seems to be just an ironic thread because apparently every idea BM has in the past has been classified as stupid by many shareholders and he gets attacked because of just sharing an idea with fear he actually pursues that idea and damages BitShares...

This is just too funny guys.  I for one am taking this sock puppets poll very very seriously.

lol was i just hoaxed? 

links to show me what im missing?

418
All the polls I see on this forum have poorly worded options. I know this one is a jokey one but all the others I see don't offer enough choice or steer the answer with their wording.

If you are gonna do a poll try and make so it can represent people opinions well.

not all of them, and since when is it that we use "other people are doing it" as a legitimate excuse to consider it a means of validating ANYTHING? 
maybe it is my training but i hate polls that are obviously skewed.

also, just for satan to recognize...when you let people view results  BEFORE voting you obfuscate the truth...which means i will not oarticipate in this poll-- even if there may be valid concerns. until bitcoinsatan can put together a post that seeks to measure reality, i will sit back and lol at the irony of this situation. 

419
General Discussion / Re: Rate Limited Fees. Transcript from the Hangout
« on: February 10, 2016, 05:49:22 am »
KISS - an acronym that bitshares needs to learn to apply

Instead we are more MICAHI...

That's funny, that's our tagline :)

'We've applied the philosophy of "Do one thing and do it well", giving you performance and scalability unmatched by any other platform.'

though i agree to a certain level...i also think people are impatient.  most people who know a little about coding will tell you it is riddled with unexpected turns of events.  and our dreams are big...that is true, but i think, @lil_jay890 it has some great benefits to be so broad thinking.  though i can also see the point that do one thing and do it well is necessary, i also am very proud to say bitshares already has one thing it does in unparalleled fashion: tx speed & scalability.  :)

This is saying nothing of sexiness IOTA could bring...hehe.

420
General Discussion / Re: Rate Limited Fees. Transcript from the Hangout
« on: February 10, 2016, 05:45:15 am »
I think it's a more appropriate way to call it. As Dan said, nothing's really free, it's just rate limited. Some parts I couldn't get, etiher because I didn't understand or because they were cut or caused by Mumble issues where it wasn't clear. I still think it can get you an idea of what it is. Whoever is "someone else" sorry for not knowing who you are lol I don't recall who it is, sorry.

Starts at 22:50


Bytemaster: Could we imagine a scenario where the blockchain had no fees, at all? And instead all accounts were rate limited, proportional to their balance?

Fuzzy: What do you mean rate limited? As far as...

Bytemaster: As far as viewing your BitShares as owning a percentage of the available network capacity. So someone who owns 1% of the BitShares [network], could consume 1% of the network capacity

Fuzzy: So kinda like miners and mining pools?

Bytemaster: Completely unrelated to that.

Fuzzy: You're talking about like the network capacity as far as, what would someone get for having 1% of the network capacity, would they be able the chance the fees according to what.. like a service.. [interrupted]

Bytemaster: There are no fees. Imagine a system where, if you own 1%, you can consume 1% of every block, worst case. Think of it another way, imagine it's a... everyone's doing timeshare on the blockchain space and everyone who owns shares can consume some of the blockchain's space when they want to do a transaction and with this method no one will be able to flood the network because they can consume their allotted allocation of the bandwidth but not everyone wants to use the network at the same time so the network can support regular users transacting more or less whenever they want. The only thing it won't allow you to do is to flood the network with a large amount [of transactions].

Fuzzy: How would the profitability be found there?

Bytemaster: Profitability comes from network effect more than anything else. The tiny little amounts that we're collecting in fees are insignificant to (last/lost?) network effect and our complexity.

Someone else: How do witnesses get paid?

Bytemaster: Same way they do now, with dilution.

Fuzzy: But it would always dilute instead of burning any?

Bytemaster: Yes. Effectively recognizing the fact we could create and exchange that had no fees gets (didn't get this word, "something" abused?) and is completely decentralized and where people would come and use the exchange if we wanted to have some fees on market orders and that would be our only fee source, we could do that, versus right now we have people saying "Hey I don't want to build on your exchange" because people don't like paying a fraction of a cent to cancel their order.

Someone else (Data?): What would happen if a group of whales got together to absorb a lot of bandwidth would that be able to lock out people with very small amounts of shares in the network from transacting or would slow them down?

Bytemaster: There are algorithms that we can use to make sure that people who transact in a (missing this word. mile?) have more weight. Basically you make a proportional to coin days accumulated. Someone with a small balance that doesn't transact but once a week would be like someone with one seventh of that balance transacting everyday.

Fuzzy: Makes sense. The more you use it the less priority you have.

Bytemaster: Correct. We can do certain things like penalizing people for (missed this part. Use) high loads and automatic scaling of the fees. The goal here would be to create a system that has lower costs in terms of committee oversight, allows you to advertise free [fees?] -
Nothing in life is really free, anything it's advertised as free is fundamentally rate limited - allows people to use the network and we don't have to put fees in people's faces all the time,

Someone else(Data?: By the way, what role would the committee have in a "feeless" scheme like this?

Bytemaster: Controlling block size, block intervals, maintenance intervals(?). Mechanics. Committee members would make far less frequent discussion. If you want to change market fees that might be the only fee you would discuss, but such a system would get BitShares one step closer to having the same user experience as a centralized exchange.

Someone else: Would this be mostly for transactions? For example, creating an asset is still gonna cost a fee right?

Bytemaster: True. Anything that's scarce like that... One is bandwidth which is transient and the other is real estate which is permanent, so account names and asset symbols would still have fees associated with them.

Someone else: Would the committee account still be potentially adjusting smartcoin parameters, fee collecting (missing something here)?

Bytemaster: Yes

Someone else: And what would this do to the upcoming STEALTH feature? I mean obviously this isn't gonna happen at the time STEALTh is introduced but envisioning in the future, how would that impact situations like STEALTH?

Bytemaster: So STEALTH is something where the network doesn't know the balance so a fee still has to be charged. It wouldn't eliminate all fees but it would the majority of fees that people are complaining about.

Someone else: And I guess the other question is how does it impact the registration incentives, referral programs?

Bytemaster: Right now the referral program is set up to be based on fees, a percentage of future fees. That creates incentives to sign up users. We can still have fees but we can choose where and when and how much to charge fees versus right now we have to charge fees on absolutely everything in order to prevent spam. Look at it as an alternative minimum fee to prevent spam, allowing the committee to pick and choose where you actually want to charge users and where you don't want to charge users. So there's the new proposal for percentage based transfer fees that abit's been working on. I think that charging people for transfers proportional to the value of the transfer is great.
I think for low value transfers you can get rid of the minimum cause we have an alternative way of charging people for small amounts so there would have to be no minimum fee for the percentage base transfers which would leave us only with the percentage + maximum. It gives us more options in our toolbox and can allow micro payments as long as you don't flood the network with them and things like that.

Fuzzy: Does that answer your question?

Someone else: Fee backed assets would also be affected I guess in the same way STEALTH is...

Bytemaster: Correct. So someone says, a big whale can continuously flood the network. Well there's too things here: 1, the network will (couldn't get this part, there's an interruption) fraction of the available capacity. So if we're able to do a thousand transactions per second, anything over a hundred transactions per second will start to have very high fees, Basically would consume the user's transaction power, very rapidly. So a whale who attempts to flood will quickly get rate limited without rate limiting the smaller parties who transact plus frequently? ...(missed this part) Transacting constantly has power proportional to their stake, as time approaches zero but so he transacts only once a week, well they've got seven times the transaction power when they do transact, because they didn't transact for an entire week. For a whale who attempts to save their transactions power for a year and then flood the network all at once it also rapidly depletes . There are algorithms available to prevent abuse. effectively if the network is fully loaded everyone gets to transact proportional to their stake. So someone who has 1% of the network can transact 1% of the time.

Someone else: That's basically a function of magnitude and time together.

Bytemaster: Correct. So a whale would not be able to consume every single block because non whales save up until they get priority over a whale. So it's kinda like if you use the mining analogy the low power miners periodically get a chance to produce a block and a high power miner might produce more frequently but the ratio is always proportional to the actual take.

Ends at 35:20. There's more stuff after but I got to go sleep now lol

thanks for this man.  always awesome to see community members going above and beyond. 

#sharebits "Akado" 25 COPPERTICKET

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