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586
General Discussion / Re: My experience as financial adviser so far
« on: May 13, 2015, 04:19:49 pm »
Edit: Later another hour and a half. People like it, someone said that he thinks i have cojones and that he will check it out.

?

Cojones = balls
In British English anyway

587
Functions need to be better delegated, maybe, 3-5 guy team to handle the web sites, make them pretty and updated with info. This includes the wiki page, infographics, videos, etc

Another team to write articles, do interviews, marketing stuff, etc

then delagate Y and X with side projects like minebitshares, bunkershares, limewallet, etc

and the rest developing the client.

That way we don't have the same people doing multiple stuff at the same time, loosing time and resources. Meaning we should optimize development. I don't know if that's what happens but I'm under the idea it does. People loose too much time with stuff that don't matter or stuff that someone else could be doing and ends up consuming his time. I trust the devs, I'm just under the idea that things are not that organized.

For this, we should have like Ken suggested, a table of all 101 delegates, links to their proposals and updates and what each one of them is up to.

I think this should tie in to the Paid Workers Proposal.
In another thread I suggest a way that Delegate tasks be easily monitored and other aspects of development could be opened up to the free market.

I am aware that BitShares is still in the startup stage itself and that the delegate system may be sufficient to perform these tasks if the market cap increases but I'm not sure access to information is easy enough and at the very least I think the delegate system should have an 'about me', 'here's what I'm doing' and for unelected delegates an official client based platform for pitching themselves to the shareholders.

====================================================================
TL;DR:
Shareholders can't be relied upon to donate to development funds but they need control over how much development funding the blockchain provides and who receives it.
Separation of community/company maintenance (Delegates) and core development.
Delegates compete to act as maintainers of the blockchain and as the human element to DAC decision making.
Core development could be funded by contracts between the shareholders and developers.
Devs propose development and a pay schedule. Shareholders pay into proposal-specific funds as they see fit and development starts once a given pledge-threshold is met.
These proposals are contracts to complete a given task within a stated timeframe for a price acceptable to the shareholders.


Here is a hypothetical scenario I hope will illustrate how this could work.

I unlock my bitshares wallet and see that I have 500 cds (core-dev-shares) and navigate to the 'Development Proposals' tab. 1 cds = 1 bts but can only be spent per the terms of a core development contract. These core-dev-shares are perhaps the dilutionary funds that used to go to just Delegates.
I see that Invictus Innovations has a proposal for bitAssets 2.0. The team claim it will take 2 months and are asking for 200k bts and $2k bitUSD upfront with a 5M bts completion-'bounty'. Of this 5M bts, 2.5M will be held in escrow for 1 year and 2.5M will be converted to bitUSD on a weekly basis from the start of development until depleted. The team promises to provide proof of progress to
the community and expects Delegates to scrutinise the details.
Underneath this proposal I see that two delegates I trust have evaluated the proposal and interviewed Invictus Innovations and conclude that they think it is a proposal worthy of investment. One delegate has provided an .mp3 file to his 'town hall' interview and another has convinced me that the economic reasoning holds up. The proposal also has a 90% Delegate recommendation rating.
I am now a reassured and confident shareholder so pledge 60% of my 500 cds to this proposal.
I see Moonstone is nearly funded so I send another 20% there.
But I also notice that ByteMaster has another great proposal but doesn't have the time to implement it right now. It's a minor feature not worth the time yet. He has requested an exorbitant fee to prioritise this work over his spare time but I'm sure he expects someone else to pitch for a much lower cost.
I see underneath that 'script.kiddie' has already offered to whip up the code for just $500 bitUSD with a 5k bts royalty fee to be paid to bytemaster. I pledge some more of my 500 cds and see it is instantly converted to bitUSD at market price.

A month later I come back to my wallet to check my cds balance. Script.kiddie has the new feature running smoothly but I see that another project he proposed didn't get funded within the time-window and the 50 cds that I pledged has been refunded to me to allocate to other projects.

I think that trying to merge the two distinct 'departments' of core development and efficient company maintenance stifles innovation and diversity in both departments.
Delegates should get paid for being delegates and core development teams should pitch and get paid solely for contracted tasks completed.

In order to ensure max decentralization of our DAC the shareholders need to actively participate in all aspects of the DAC.
As we are all humans with short attention spans these decisions need to be spoon-fed to us. The easier it is to participate, the more shareholders we get to take part.
If anything is complicated or hard to evaluate, participation will drop off sharply.

Groups of humans are known for witch hunts so we should make sure that when these happen they do not spill over into unrelated areas of the DAC.
For example; if a mob gets stirred up to oust a delegate providing a slow price feed then we need to be certain that there won't be any collateral damage. So delegates cannot also be responsible for funding core development.

Taulant and Moonstone have stated that they aim to demonstrate their worth by taking on risk and offering the shareholders the opportunity to invest by buying their product (their code) and having them open-source it. Could core devs take a similar approach?

Data and necessary info needs to be compiled by the DAC for presentation to the shareholders so they can make informed decisions.

Delegates need to be easily evaluated with a quick look at a list of statistics. Delegate pay should pay for the efficient running of delegate tasks only.
Core development needs to be pitched to the shareholders in a modular fashion and opened up to the free market – I propose by way of a crowd sale system.
Dev teams need to show their goals and code needs to be written in a way that allows numerous parties to add to the codebase over time. A clear list of tasks to be completed allows separate dev teams to pitch separate projects. The shareholders can then fund development as quickly or as gradually as they wish. Projects won't overlap so less time is wasted, and potential dev teams know that they will get paid for the work they do.

Startups who want to set up businesses directly on the BitShares blockchain could also share this coredev proposal system to get funding. Bts shareholders could be encouraged to direct their core-dev-shares to their proposal by getting voting rights in the business and a share of future profits proportional to their stake or perhaps even as loan repayments.
The proposals that get funded would reflect the views of the shareholders. The proportion of core development vs. start-up 'VC funding' style proposals that get funded will most likely change over time as the ecosystem develops.

Shareholders who are delegates could also pitch for core development tasks if they are so inclined but shareholders need to be able to quickly see who is doing the job for which they are specifically being paid for.

For delegates this should mean that shareholders can view a list of hard stats that accurately tell them who is performing well and who isn't.
These stats include:
Uptime
Block propagation
Average time per price feed (possibly broken down per asset – this could be displayed next to a measure of volatility of the specified asset for a fair assessment.)
Other clear cut and useful stats.
A percentage of how many successfully funded core-dev proposals the delegate reviewed and advised on.
Delegates should also be responsible for being oracles on contracts between the shareholders/DAC and core development teams. They are the human element of the DAC so should evaluate the viability of core development proposals and also check-in on project progress.  Delegates would have no authority to stop shareholders funding unrealistic proposals but should use their reputation to serve the shareholders in an advisory capacity.


Instead of funding core dev with dilution, those block rewards could be sent proportionally to each account by their holdings. The funds could be held in some kind of multisig account that allows them to only be spent by contributing to core dev project proposal crowd sales.

Proposals for core development could be published in a separate section of the core wallet in a way that acts to 'crowd sale' the proposed project.
It costs a nominal fee to publish these ideas to avoid bloat and make it easier for shareholders to assess less options. These proposals are contracts to complete a given task within a stated timeframe for a price acceptable to the shareholders.

Core Dev Proposals contain:
A summary of the problems aiming to be solved, what the finished product will look like/do and why/how it will work
a timeline
A fee structure. Perhaps an upfront fee and a recurring payment schedule or an on-completion bounty.
Proposals can also be published with the expectation that someone other than the author will bid to actually compete the task.  Devs who wish the implement someone else's idea can include a royalty payment in their proposal. 'Fund us and we'll pay 10kbts to the author as a royalty.'
This 'royalty' is voluntary but encourages 'ideas people' to promote their ideas to establish themselves in the community to increase the likelihood they'll get a royalty and as a consequence more people hear about the best proposals.
The author of a proposal may also be a large stakeholder with lots of funds to pledge to a developer team to implement their idea, so devs may want to attract this 'VC money' and so offer a symbolic/generous royalty.

The party can then pitch themselves to the shareholders on why they should get this contract. For example:

'We propose to implement BM's proposal for bitAssets 2.0. Upfront we require: 10kbts, £2kbitUSD, 5M bts to be held in escrow until completion except each month 0.5 bitGold is paid out from the fund.'

These proposals accomplish:
Separation of DAC maintenance and DAC development
Open-sourcing of ideas for core development. If a proposal contains a good idea but asks for too much funding, other parties are able to promise the same project for an alternative payment schedule.
A direct relationship between the shareholders and core development incorporated into the DAC itself.
An opportunity for projects willing to build businesses around bts to get access to donations or loans.
The ability for development and businesses working around BitShares to increase as fast as shareholders are willing to pay.

588
Quote
That is easier and CSAs are totally legal. Pre-season you sell shares and every week you redeem shares for produce. That should actually be able to be done on bitshares (i think, but IANAL). The farmers markets where I've lived have lots of farms doing that, and I've bought shares before (and ended up with more collard greens than I know what to do with some weeks!)
That sounds much better.

Perhaps every industry will get used to pre-ordering products.
With 3D printing on the rise I can imagine the market will allow for more specialised products made to order with a bulk order discount if you're willing to wait for x other customers to commit to the order.
This is where you'd use the UIA to represent a product that will be produced in the future once a threshold number of UIA's have been bought. (This assumes that it is still cheaper to make items in bulk.)

A wholesaler may want to purchase a bulk stock of these UIA's and can hold the products 'in inventory' without actually needing to have physical storage. They have the products on the books and can plan their physical stock requirements as needed.
Advertisers who see potential in the product could also buy bulk UIAs with the expectation that they will sell that UIA to a customer for a profit before the UIA has been redeemed for the physical item.
A brick and mortar store expecting to make a physical sale of a product in the near future could then swap the UIA for the product just days before they expect to make a sale and their warehousing requirements are kept as efficient as possible.

Could a system like this make the manufacturing industry as a whole more efficient?
Companies may even be able to insure themselves against a fire in their warehouse.
By purchasing UIAs of all their stock and then selling the UIA back to the market as they make physical sales. Perhaps there would be some way for a large warehousing company could 'make the market' for UIA products that they house and also provide insurance.

Due to the time required to deliver physical goods these systems could only work if UIAs were adopted at very local levels. Small businesses would need to be incentivized to issue UIAs of their stock and future product lines.

Does anyone else think this is something possible with User issued assets?

589
Let's say I have a stall at a farmers market where I sell my permaculture grown tasty food.
Demand is even greater than expected and I need some capital to expand.

Could I create a UIA 'farmstall' and then issue shares?
I am willing to sell up to 49% stake in my business so I send 51% of the shares to myself.
I then promise to get my customers to pay in bitAssets to a designated address that shareholders in my business can audit to check they are getting their fair share of profits.
Every week the profits are paid out to every 'farmshare' UIA.

To encourage customers to use bitshares I could offer to sell bitUSD from my phone to my customers so that they can pay to my auditable balance.
After selling lots of bitUSD I would then have a lot cash on hand that I could buy bitshares from the public with. So that at the end of every day I would be 100% crypto.
Even if no money is made on the spread I have solved the problems of cash storage, simplified my accounting, exposed new users to bitshares and attracted bitAsset sellers to my stall to impulse buy.

I understand that this might classify my stall as a money transmitter. Is there a way to get around this? Could I only buy/sell 'coupon' type UIA's that I then sell immediately for bitUSD on the DAC to get around this?

Instead of being a USD/bitUSD exchanger, become a USD/coupon(not money)UIA gift voucher exchanger. Perhaps this is another advantage bitshares has over bitcoin.
You can buy and sell numerous classifications of assets to get around legal troubles.

Is this a valid use case for BitShares?
If so, I think it would be good if we can have templates for how businesses can integrate and why they should

590
General Discussion / Re: My experience as financial adviser so far
« on: May 11, 2015, 10:07:11 pm »
+5%

591
General Discussion / Re: I win !
« on: May 11, 2015, 02:14:32 pm »
Are you saying that the market might not value trustless vs a tiny tiny bit of trust spread over 101 Delegates?
Bitcoin vs BitShares.
The way I see it the only advantage bitcoin has is that is requires no trust at all (if you have access to sufficient hashing power.)

I really like that BM has repeatedly suggested that BitShares must adapt to remain the perfect embodiment of a decentralized asset exchange, else someone else will fork and take the market with them. So I believe in the capable people currently coding BitShares to stick to that premise which should mean that my investment will always be in the most efficient system most likely to succeed.

The argument given for DPOS vs POS regarding centralization of producing blocks given on BM's blog is compelling and is a key reason I have confidence in BitShares long term.

http://bytemaster.bitshares.org/article/2015/01/07/The-Most-Decentralized-Proof-of-Stake-System/

DPOS vs POW (Bitshares vs Bitcoin) is also another great read to instill confidence in BTS.

http://bytemaster.bitshares.org/bitshares/2015/01/04/Delegated-Proof-of-Stake-vs-Proof-of-Work/

I think the only reason that the price of bts is so low right now is that it takes a lot of effort to read around to find all the information and due to our products not ready for mainstream release just yet.
As soon as people are presented with clear and simple reasons they should use or invest in bitshares the price should rocket - and suddenly Delegate pay goes through the roof and BitShares can fund x100's more development and complimentary services to the network. The bigger bitshares gets, the faster it grows!

592
General Discussion / Re: I win !
« on: May 11, 2015, 12:01:16 pm »
I share your enthusiasm!

Although I'm not not sure that BitShares is a 'bitcoin killer'.
I've come to the conclusion that bitcoin and bts fulfill separate niches of the financial sector.

I see bitcoin's trustless-ness as too valuable to give up, so I see it becoming the stable store of value comparable to gold. The BitShares DAC will track the value of btc and other stores of value but it can never be 100% trustless, else it wouldn't be able to have a price feed or make informed human decisions with Delegates.

In the current system, you might hold gold to preserve some of your wealth - but you wouldn't expect to be able to use it to trade financial derivatives. It takes businesses and humans to operate the financial ecosystem that allows the trading of value.
Businesses will indeed tack-on to bitcoin to provide these services - but can they be decentralized? I think the answer is yes, but that the conclusion you come to when designing the best system to handle this decentralization is BitShares. And then it turns out that it's faster and more efficient to run these services on a separate purpose-built blockchain and avoid inefficiently scanning the bitcoin blockchain for meta-data.
Trust is the crux. Financial derivatives need trust and the ultimate store of value will avoid trust wherever possible.

Bitcoin the store of value and BitShares the financial ecosystem are complimentary and I don't think either will eclipse the other.

593
General Discussion / Re: Make it simple
« on: May 11, 2015, 11:41:50 am »
I think the lack of marketing will change once we have a stable 1.0 client to introduce new users to.
Encouraging newbies to come to an unfinished product could have quite negative consequences.

Bytemaster recently said that lots of instructional documentation and new feature announcements are coming around the first week of June this year.
A stable 1.0 client should follow soon after.

I think BM said as much on the last Dev Hangout but if anybody knows better please correct me.

594
Stakeholder Proposals / Re: Paid Workers Proposal for Review
« on: May 10, 2015, 07:56:19 pm »
this idea maybe is good , but we cannot change any rule, so it is useless, stop to discussing it , I had loss much, I don`t want to lose all

 +5%

We need to distinguish between property rights (which should always be secure) and system functionality which must continuously advance, or die.

The minute we decide that we cannot change to stay the best, a competitor will emerge that does not suffer under those constraints. 

Would you really want the results of our latest R&D to go to a competitor because BitShares cannot change to incorporate it?

Otherwise, BitShares would suffer the ultimate fate of Bitcoin.  Stuck roaring in the tar pits, failing to adapt, unable to compete.

Ultimately it is for the shareholders to decide.  But the choice is never simply whether to adopt a new technology or not.  It is always whether we want to allow some competitor pick it up and use it against us!

Evolution is an iterative process. Getting it right on the first attempt is nearly impossible. To have the best product out there and outpace the competition, Bitshares needs to be agile and focused on always improving the product as well as the market rules. Liquidity and 3rd party development will come naturally if Bitshares is the best offer out there, creating a whole ecosystem around the plaform. That's when network effect will start to have a significant impact. At that point, "Powered by Bitshares" will be a sign people will look at with confidence and trust.

But that scenario won't and can't happen if Bitshares' stakeholders automatically vote against what might be good ideas, in fear that change might have a negative impact on their investment. I, too, took a hit with the merger. But as I said, getting it right on the first attempt is nearly impossible, and only those who evolve ultimately survive.
+5% Stan!

So long as we don't stray so far from our principles that we cease to further the cause of financial freedom for all in favor of "the greatest profit / broadest adoption".

I agree, "you gotta do what you gotta do to survive", but if you can't survive while sticking to your goals & principles, what's the point? IMO you're just paper in the wind, going here & there not by your own will but rather by the will others impose on you that you acquiesce to. Yet it's not easy to know how to strike the proper balance.

I tend to think that if everything this ecosystem is to become is left solely up to shareholders (with BM / Stan / Devs only there to implement what shareholders dictate), it will become just another heavily regulated, mainstream tool that would accomplish very little towards the goal of financial freedom for everyone.

However, I do believe proposal voting is a very important tool and should be implemented. When is debatable, and how / who will control of the proposals is also an important consideration.

I myself would like to see a proposal / voting system that provides formal, qualitative and quantitative information about proposals. Many people have put forth their ideas on how to do this. I believe shareholder input should be considered with more weight than it has been in the past, but not so much that it completely dictates and defines what the BitShares ecosystem is. I say this to convey that my confidence is much greater in BM than in the shareholders, of which I have little idea who the major players are or what principles guide them. I am more willing to trust BM because I am more informed of the principles that guide his decisions, which in general I agree with, so I would like him & his team to still have a strong, dominant role in the trajectory of this ecosystem.

I see a well thought out proposal system as being necessary in BitShares' evolution. It would be a very useful tool in the hands of an open minded management team to help guide them and make informed decisions, as well as fostering a spirit of community, and empowerment to individuals to influence what BitShares is.

The principles upon which the BitShares ecosystem was started, are the same principles that started bitcoin, are the same as those that fueled this ecosystem's growth, and will continue to motivate it's continued growth and evolution into the future, if necessary by fork and redeployment as a new ecosystem if need be. You can't extinguish the inner craving for freedom.
+5%

Does anybody know who the major stakeholders are likely to be?
I'm wondering if they invested in Dan's vision for Bitshares or merely as a profit-seeking investment.
Are the shareholders likely to prioritise keeping BitShares free, open and anonymous?

595
there are a lot of encrypted messaging apps on the market already. NXTTY comes to mind. even whatsapp is working on their end-to-end encryption. the market is saturated in my opinion.

I don't trust a centralized company to encrypt my messages who promises not to give anyone else the decryption keys.
If I send my messages on the BitShares blockchain then I feel safer knowing that if someone can decrypt my messages without my consent then they can also steal from every BitShares account. (They'd have to crack my private key, right?) I think BitShares is going somewhere and once there are large sums of money moving around the DAC there are going to be a lot of people motivated to prevent that from happening.

596
BitShares allows anonymous(?) encrypted messages to be sent between users.
Is somebody developing a lightweight mobile wallet to handle messaging?
I would happily pay the transaction fee to send encrypted messages in a similar fashion to whatsapp

The kind of one-stop-shop of messaging, cash and investments BitShares can provide is a killer feature and I'm particularly looking forward to a messaging app that is simple enough to use to recommend to my technophobe friends.

597
General Discussion / Re: My experience as financial adviser so far
« on: May 10, 2015, 02:49:53 pm »
Liondani, I would like to have a bit more contact with you about business because i tend to lose my confidence, and have difficulties to make decissions on my own. Let*s skype again soon. Or should i post that in the forum so we dont have this pm thing and so that people know what we communicate? Ok i will post this text now.
What i wrote in skype:

Hi! I didn+t want to spam the delegate section with my updates. But maybe it+s about time to make a little zusammenfassung (summary), of what i did in a short clip and post it there. The question is, should this go in my proposal thread or should i open a new one?
+5%

Keep us all updated with what you're doing!

Perhaps you should spend extra time and effort on ONE person with the aim of making them share in the BitShares vision and become your business partner?
I think that a team of 2+ people who can demonstrate their worth to the stakeholders by educating potential customers should be in a strong position to be elected Delegate.

Work on staffing your startup and then advertise and educate about BitShares.
You should provide proof that you have taken newbies, shown them WHY they want to use bitshares and how to use the bts client. (I understand that a working mobile wallet is critical for you to provide this).

If you could demonstrate that you and your startup company have introduced brand new people to BitShares and had them walk away with the wallet installed on their phone I would strongly support your delegate position and I think others will too.

You are showing real commitment to BitShares and I want Delegate funds to support you.
I just don't think you've provided the evidence to the stakeholders yet :)

598
Thanks for the explanation, it seems clear now.
You should definitely add this information to your FAQ (or maybe even directly in Step 2 in your crowdfunding process) because otherwise people might feel confused. In my case I was about to donate but this information gap stopped me from doing so because I felt unsure what was going to happen.
+5%

I also can't find a way to donate in bts.
I've been using metaexchange.info to donate but they only swap btc/moonfund and not bts/moonfund.
I chose metaexchange and I didn't understand why I needed to create a new wallet on the moonstone.io site just to donate.
One great feature of BitShares is the ability to send to an account name with stealth addresses. Why can't I use the bts client to send bts to 'moonstone.funder' (example) and 10 seconds later receive my Moondfund UIA's back to the account that sent the transaction?

I think Moonstone is a key feature that BitShares needs but I don't think the crowdfunder process as it is now is intuitive enough to capture the 2 second attention span of potential donors

599
Stakeholder Proposals / Re: Paid Workers Proposal for Review
« on: May 08, 2015, 07:42:01 pm »
Thanks BM for sharing the idea. I think voting by project is great. Consider the idea of making each project open to many bidders. We can all vote on which projects are the best ideas and approximately how much we are all willing to chip-in. Then many developers can come along and bid on each project by detailing their proposals. This way we will also have backup providers in case something goes wrong with first developer/group.
+5%

600
the Frankenstein that Dan released into the wild would crowdfund the world's best lawyers for his defense, while the bitcoin community would be blogging and ranting in their forums for somebody to help (like they are doing with their "development").

ISIS scenario would finally prove to the crypto community at large that BitShares is the most awesome MEMBERSHIP ORGANIZATION of which Dan is merely just another member with no more control than anybody else.

This is a great advantage of DPOS but if all 6(?) core devs got arrested and needed legal funds do you think that the delegate system would be able to handle it?

Is there the bitsharestalk forum viewed widely enough by the shareholders to see that a new emergency delegate is needed to be voted in?
Would current delegates donate their pay to the legal fund?

I'm sure the community would find a way to make it work but I think it would be a good idea for there to be some kind of established procedure or some kind of plan

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