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Messages - tonyk

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286
General Discussion / Re: bitSHARES - As True Shares and Not a Currency!
« on: February 11, 2016, 10:58:35 am »
Quote from: cube on February 11, 2016, 10:08:31 am
I just have an idea.

The dividends could be distributed to AM and LTM members only.  This would give a boost to the referral program.

Suddenly I feel that the AM/LTM can be an exclusive club membership to the best things one can get in the co-op.  Hmm.. a modern Lifestyle one must have.

 I am as bad at marketing as the the next guy, but I do find this pretty cool! (the idea makes me smile, which a good first step marketing, I hear)
+ 1


And in a attempt to not overpost.... Some input from my Chinese friends on this topic will be highly appreciated! [the harsher the better...but it is just my personal preference  :)]
by my best friend @wallace ;
the best guy, hating dilution workers even more than myself and Emperical @alt
and the friendliest whale around (also the only person trying to keep a bitAsset or 2 close to peg) @bitcrab
in particular.

287
General Discussion / Re: Interest for a Live Coding Session for the Python Libraries?
« on: February 11, 2016, 10:28:52 am »
Quote from: xeroc on February 11, 2016, 10:11:22 am
Anyone interested in a live (recorded) coding session for the python libraries?

I could show:

* How to interface python with Bitshares
* How to interface with the DEX
* How to get notifications and react on them
* How to construct a basic real-time trading bot ..

What platform would be good to do something like this?
Any preferred time? (I am CET timezone)
Some other stuff you would like to know about the python libraries?

Just my thoughts

I am a fan of your code (you should know it by now, right?)
So any platform/time works for me (as long as I can type, as opposed of speaking)

"Some other stuff you would like to know about the python libraries?"
My question is how one call any other than history and database API's. (network API for example[I think that was the name of it])
The documentation is somewhat lacking for my taste (very novice coder user here)

288
General Discussion / Re: bitSHARES - As True Shares and Not a Currency!
« on: February 11, 2016, 08:44:23 am »
Quote from: xeroc on February 11, 2016, 08:06:04 am
Good to have you back, tony.

Well, thanks but  I have never ever left mentally. Maybe money-wise from time to time, but never mentally.

And it is great to have you period, @xeroc! I know this post of mine is lost in the mass of 'fighting posts' of mine as I call them... but I did believe back  when I posted it, as I do now, that you are ' a bright beam of light in generally very dark space'

Quote from: xeroc on February 11, 2016, 08:06:04 am
However, what we need to establish first is on/off-ramps so that investors can get in and out. It is of no use to be able to trade your BTS into bitUSD if you can't get out.
So we need more partners to interface with bitUSD ...



Well, I wrote somewhere up  this thread...this proposal is not a panacea for all 'illnesses' and also working on BTS as if it was  BTC (with all of its gateways/entry exit points etc.)... so yes it would be grate if we had btc's gateways and the rest being BTS tech. :)

Quote from: xeroc on February 11, 2016, 08:06:04 am
Further, I do not really like the idea of having fees denoted in USD .. unless, we can also pay the fee in EUR, GOLD, etc ... using something similar to the BTS/bitUSD fee pool ..
The main point is focusing only one bitAsset and TRULLY establishing it... after we do that (no matter if it is bitUSD/bitCNY/bitWhatever) I agree, more choices is better than less choices.

289
General Discussion / Re: bitSHARES - As True Shares and Not a Currency!
« on: February 11, 2016, 06:50:35 am »
Quote from: fuzzy on February 11, 2016, 06:27:32 am
As to how i say we test it, that is open for discussion.  I am no expert daytrader and do not have the same skillset that comes along with it, but in my opinion could do the following:

we run it as a test on the testnet might be a good way. 

So we essentially let people.buy into a competition to see who will end up with the most cash from trading the market...use the buy in and maybe double it using a worker reward and then we can even put up a reddit thread inviting people to join in the competition.  get daytraders TRYING bitshares while they are part of the experiment.  Then you will have effectively used a trading competition to bot only rest it but also promote bitshares THE EXPERIMENT (which is an important distinction for those who might want to join forces) at the same time.  Heck it might even recruit people who have answers i and the rest of the forum may never give you...
Hmm, good idea!  I must admit this is the first post of your last 100, I have nothing against on any level  (hope same applies to you one day...  :) working on it ... slowly )
The usual problem is, it is hard to simulate real money with fake money (think about how totally boring poker is, when played for fake chips).
[I understand your proposal gives real value to the winner(s). Just thinking about the 'no real loss for the rest" issues/implications.]
I will give it more thought tomorrow fuzz.

290
General Discussion / Re: bitSHARES -The shares! Getting rid of any token connections and a ton more
« on: February 11, 2016, 06:08:38 am »
Quote from: puppies on February 11, 2016, 05:46:58 am
I don't think the price of bitUSD (on the external market) would be consistent enough.  If bitUSD is in high demand then the price will be very high, and if bitUSD is in low demand then the price will be very low.  Because this buy and sell pressure will be caused by people entering or exiting the market I think there will be a tendency for much greater swings (compared to external price of USD) than today.  If people get scared they will sell at a loss which will further increase the selling pressure.  This could reduce the price of bitUSD to a real world price that would be hard to recover from.

I would love to be proven wrong on this, as your idea is a graceful solution to many of our problems. 

I may also just not understand why you are not concerned with price of bitUSD on external exchanges.
First off, I am glad to see that you recognize that this idea (potentailly) solves a lot of our problems.

I think the meat of your concerns are stated here:

Quote from: puppies on February 11, 2016, 05:46:58 am
I may also just not understand why you are not concerned with price of bitUSD on external exchanges.
For me it is a matter of taking another point of view. That is to say 1 bitUSD is really one USD. ( I realize you think it may swing from this one to one peg).
I just believe it will be one to one, (and any tiny deviation will be fixed by arbitrage on external exchanges / DEX pair). What will swing (possibly widely at first) is the value/price of BTS shares in the DEX.

PS
Some more detailed explanation on the mechanics of the bitUSD deviation from the 1:1 peg will help me explain why I think it will not happen/or help me understand where my theory is wrong.

291
General Discussion / Re: bitSHARES -The shares! Getting rid of any token connections and a ton more
« on: February 11, 2016, 05:57:31 am »
Quote from: fuzzy on February 11, 2016, 05:15:47 am
Lets test it.  Can we discuss how this might be done?  as this shapes up the idea looks like something that is pretty elegant and almost seems as though it should have been obvious before.  but we really need to start testing big changes before making them so we can assess what we may or may not know about that might be problematic. 

love the idea and looking forward to seeing a successful test

Well, fist of all when did you get me off your ignore list?  :)

Second of all, I am truly aware that I am #4 on your most dangerous list [shortly after CH, eth and the gov]. I do not know who give you that I idea...and it does not really matter if it was someone that "has a real good vision and wide wing span" or it was your own imagination. What  matters is that it is totally not true!

And third but the only real important question is : How you see this test playing out in real life? [and when you see those choses I am sure You will not be eager to jump in either scenario too soon]

Cause for me there are only 2 choice, really.
1. BM: "dShares just got more interesting."
or
2. TK: "BM is not on board as chief dev. So we are forking and keeping 5-7% as a development fund. The rest is 100% dropped on BTS"

292
General Discussion / Re: bitSHARES - As True Shares and Not a Currency!
« on: February 11, 2016, 05:31:06 am »
Quote from: cube on February 11, 2016, 04:22:16 am


With this elaboration, I am beginning to see the beauty of the idea.  What the idea implies is that bitshares would transform into the de-facto shares of a big decentralised co-op instead of a tradable crypto-currency now.  These shares can be easily traded in and out via bitassets and bitassets become our interface with the world (instead of bts).  The value of the co-op will translate into the value of the shares.  The higher the value, the higher the share price.




YES!!!




PS
And poor me  :( trying to stress this in the title by saying "The shares! Getting rid of any token connections ".
If even one of the brightest amongst us (cube) does not get any clue of one of the main points... the title needs a change!


293
General Discussion / Re: bitSHARES -The shares! Getting rid of any token connections and a ton more
« on: February 11, 2016, 04:03:18 am »
Quote from: cube on February 11, 2016, 03:44:44 am
Quote from: tonyk on February 11, 2016, 03:11:33 am
Quote from: cube on February 11, 2016, 02:41:04 am
This idea would work if there are values in the DEX co-op so much so that users want to get in.  Otherwise the effect can be detrimental.  I think we are still building values and liquidity on the blockchain and it is too early to consider such a move.

 :)

Are you saying we are all buying into valueless BTS token right now? [or the very least overpaying for the value that there is in the system]

I am not suggesting bts does not have value but rather it may not have sufficient value to pull users in such that they are happy with their bts being locked up.  I am thinking along the line of more liquid bitasset markets, a more developed prediction market, and a new bond market.

I somehow missed your point on users getting dividends from the bitasset transaction fees.  Well, this is a cool value added to the system given the low interest rate environment all over the world.  The sweet dividends will provide another value to attract users into the co-op.   Your idea may work after all.
It is cool, I skim over 75% of the posts myself. That being said I think you missed/misunderstood (I blame my poor English and explanatory skills  for that btw) that BTS are not locked up!!! You can still trade them! You sell them for bitUSD (the most likely but not the only path) and exchange the bitUSD received for USD at say Ronnie's OpenL Exchage. The only thing is, you can do this sell on the co-op's DEX only. But it is design feature and not a bug. Business entities which require first offering the 'share' to the rest of the partners and/or not allowing selling one's partnership interest at all,  are not unheard of. The proposal is somewhere between that extreme and the trade-able everywhere one.

294
General Discussion / Re: bitSHARES -The shares! Getting rid of any token connections and a ton more
« on: February 11, 2016, 03:11:33 am »
Quote from: cube on February 11, 2016, 02:41:04 am
This idea would work if there are values in the DEX co-op so much so that users want to get in.  Otherwise the effect can be detrimental.  I think we are still building values and liquidity on the blockchain and it is too early to consider such a move.

 :)

Are you saying we are all buying into valueless BTS token right now? [or the very least overpaying for the value that there is in the system]

295
General Discussion / Re: bitSHARES -The shares! Getting rid of any token connections and a ton more
« on: February 11, 2016, 03:10:08 am »
Quote from: Empirical1.2 on February 11, 2016, 02:34:39 am
I never understand these things at first but today we have the problem that shorts don't want to create BitUSD at 1-1 and demand a huge premium because BTS price expectations are neutral to negative and they can be force settled/margin called pretty easily.

This solution seems to require equal/more collateral from BitUSD creators, so the problem will remain/be exasperbated and very little BitUSD will be created?

I do not claim this proposal to be perfect. It just solves (well seems to solve) a bunch of issues and delivers improvements on several fronts. Until it is implemented it will remain just a theory [and as you might know there are people that use the "It is just a theory" and not a 'fact' argument even against Darwinism].

Besides the things already mentioned in the OP:

- It removes the BTS from the centralized exchanges. Something arguably very desirable.

- It moves all the BTS trading in the DEX... this might not be the 40,000 BTC a day trading volume ETH has, but is a great start for the DEX

- The fee structure and bitUSD being the 'core/fee token' aims at among other things increasing the bitUSD in existence (and so arguably liquidity). How?
Let's say on day one bitUSD still trades with 7% premium (which is misnomer in this system as I explained earlier), but let's say that a person  thinks BTS should be 7% higher right now. So instead of buying 50 bitUSD in the market, he issues 50 bitUSD to himself (using his 1/2 mill in BTS account, puts 17x collateral behind his 50 bitUSD borrowed!!!) and  buys the name  "Empirical888" for his token. The fee to create this asset, must be paid in bitUSD, so 50 bitUSD fee is collected by the system. 30 days later this 50 bitUSD (and all other fees all in bitUSD) are spread to all BTS holders as dividend.
Results: not only bitUSD creation is encouraged and more bitUSD start circulating in the system, but most importantly a use case for bitUSD is created (other then hedging against BTS price drops).

296
General Discussion / Re: bitSHARES -The shares! Getting rid of any token connections and a ton more
« on: February 11, 2016, 02:22:21 am »
Quote from: noisy on February 11, 2016, 01:43:33 am


(this is the part, when I don't know what will going to happen... I am improvising. Please correct me!)

Because 1 BTS is now worth only 0.04375 USD, that means that with 1 USD network can buy ~22.9515 BTS (let's say ~23 BTS). But because 200% is required, ~46 BTS are needed (6 BTS more than before). Those 6 BTS are taken from collateral of issuer (in that case CCEDK) and 40-26=14 BTS will be given them back. Because CCEDK not adjusted collateral, they loose ~6 BTS from their 20 BTS of collateral (~30%). In that case loan was paid from CCEDK funds.

That part is pretty much the same way it is now (aside from the auto price adjustment rules, with which I came up  on the fly, but those new rules serve the new circumstances better)

The system is selling the collateral (BTS) and buying bitUSD in order to close the loan (i.e. get back the bitUSD it has given as a loan ). As the price of BTS now is lower than back when the loan was taken, the borrower (CCEDK) gets less BTS than if it simply returned the 1 bitUSD borrowed.
Adjusting the collateral helps only if the price of BTS goes back up. If the price stays at that level and the borrower has spend the bitUSD (which in the example is the case) the loss is permanent.

Quote from: noisy on February 11, 2016, 01:54:27 am
You might ask, why anyone would risk issuing an assets, when in case of margin call, they would loose their money. In my understanding the benefit would be a bridge fee as a profit. But is it that mean, that issuer will has to believe, that BTS price will rise? Is it not a too risky assumption for businesses like gateway/bride provider? Exchanges should earn money despite the fact that prices sometimes drops.
True. Exchanges should not be the final bitUSD issuers (or at least not with big portion of their funds). Ideally they  should just buy bitUSD from the market and leave the risk spread between several (hundred; thousand??? :)) BTS bulls.

297
General Discussion / Re: bitSHARES -The shares! Getting rid of any token connections and a ton more
« on: February 11, 2016, 01:04:33 am »
Quote from: yvv on February 11, 2016, 12:50:21 am
Quote from: Riverhead on February 11, 2016, 12:36:57 am
Quote from: yvv on February 11, 2016, 12:04:46 am
Quote from: tonyk on February 10, 2016, 11:33:21 pm

Sorry my English maybe.

So if you have USD - you buy bitUSD with USD - from say Ronny's ccedk, and start trading in the DEX.
If you have BTC - you buy bitUSD with BTC on say polo or from blocktrades gateway.
More or less same as now, just BTS will be non-transferable, but only tradeable. That is to say the only way to get BTS is to buy them in the DEX itself for bitUSD (or other DEX Asset)

And how do you derive a settlement price for bitUSD, if you don't trade BTS against real USD at external exchange?
The external exchange isn't real USD either. It's an issued asset just like bitUSD.

No, it is not like bitUSD. True that it is not a real USD though. It is an IOU which is hard pegged to 1 Fed Reserve USD. In contrast to USD IOU, bitUSD is loosely pegged to Fed Reserve USD, but has no counter party risk. In order to peg bitUSD to USD, you need to trade USD or some hard pegged IOU for BTS to derive a settlement price. What is your solution to this issue?

Why?
Isn't OL exchanging bitUSD for USD at 1:1 rate and say 0.25% commission even better?



298
General Discussion / Re: bitSHARES -The shares! Getting rid of any token connections and a ton more
« on: February 10, 2016, 11:33:21 pm »
Quote from: bytemaster on February 10, 2016, 10:55:57 pm
The only downside is that the value of BTS would fall in the short-term due to loss of liquidity.  The conversion would take a long time as people would need to withdraw from exchanges before the shares get locked up.

I do not think low liquidity equals low prices. But the speculator in me says - "Great, if it is a temporary thing, and this is fundamental correct business decision on the co-op's part - Time to buy cheap."

Quote from: noisy on February 10, 2016, 11:14:10 pm
I am wondering whether that's me, or that's it's a little bit difficult to understand? Seriously, am I reading this 4th time :/

Ok, So I have $20 and I want to trade them for some bitAsset. What I will have to do, in few different steps... ?
Sorry my English maybe.

So if you have USD - you buy bitUSD with USD - from say Ronny's ccedk, and start trading in the DEX.
If you have BTC - you buy bitUSD with BTC on say polo or from blocktrades gateway.
More or less same as now, just BTS will be non-transferable, but only tradeable. That is to say the only way to get BTS is to buy them in the DEX itself for bitUSD (or other DEX Asset)

299
General Discussion / Re: How to get a stable measurement of real world value without relying on a Feed?
« on: February 10, 2016, 10:46:29 pm »
just posted it (among other good consequences)  :):

https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php/topic,21409.msg278321/topicseen.html#msg278321

300
General Discussion / bitSHARES - As True Shares and Not a Currency!
« on: February 10, 2016, 10:44:31 pm »
1. bitSHARES (or dShares if BM is stubborn and we have to make a separate chain) are NON - send-able digital shares in a decentralized exchange co-op.
a. unlike other money like digital tokens they cannot be send to other account. Those digital shares can only be bought/sold, and they can only be bought in one place - the co-ops own decentralized exchange.
b. they are true shares in a business entity - regularly (monthly/quarterly) all proceeds of the co-op [which are in bitUSD only.More on this later] are split between all accounts having more then a system-wise min. number of shares.
c. as a consequence the only things potentially available to trade on centralized exchanges are bitAssets.
e. to become a own of the co-op you have to by bitUSD for USD and with to purchase shares in the DEX.

2. -[ short summery of some of the differences (and nuances) compared  with current system.]
a.  bitUSD are created by the system and loaned anyone upon providing an asset as collateral. The amount of collateral needed should be 1.75 - 2 times bigger than the loan. In the most common case the collateral will be the shares in the co-op itself. The value of this collateral is determined by the last trading price of such shares in the in-house DEX itself.
b.no feed needed - all the prices are already there on the DEX
c. perfect peg all the time - what is changing is the value (price) of the bitShares' shares themselves, the bitUSD stays at 1 USD.
d. calling the bitUSD loans/force sell of the collateral.
Whenever a trade in the DEX occurs, with such a price that the collateral will have a value smaller than 1.75 times the loan the collateral is put up for sale
- the starting price is the price that triggered this forced liquidation. If the collateral is not sold at that price, each 15min (15*60/3 blocks) the price is decreased by 1% until it is sold.

3. The 'core' token of the system is bitUSD - this means among other things -all fees* are paid in it;
-workers(and witnesses) are paid in it also; the system pays the worker and issues 2x new bitShares; those new bitShares are put for sale on the market for the stakeholders to buy; the same rules as the collateral liquidation rules are followed - starting with the last observed real trade price and decreasing 1% every 15min.
- the regular dividends are paid from the fees collected (in bitUSD) in bitUSD.
-This also means that the users of the system (DEX here mainly for now), are not forced to be BTS holders at all. They just buy bitUSD for USD (with say 0.3% cut for the fiat bridge) and trade on the DEX exchange for whatever they like. [but it is a carrot instead of a stick approach - see under fees* below]

4. BitAsset should use bitUSD (instead of co-op's shares) as primary collateral.[Subject to debate - but seems pretty logical]

*fees in the new bitShares are fully in agreement with the recent 'no fees based on ownership of stake in the co-op' approach. For those that feel forced into buying into BTS by this - they just pay the non-member fees in bitUSD and trade freely on the DEX

Benefits:
- Clear distinction of the SHARES from money and tokes and more close resemblance to shares (and probably partnership based ownership of an entity)
- This new way should lead to significant slow down of the velocity of the asset [note to myself: should elaborate more on that]
- Virtually perfect peg - all that is moving is the price of the co-ops shares, really.
- Instant no feed, but pure DEX(market) based pricing of the bitAssets.

?

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