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Topics - noisy

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Everyone was so exited when BM announced that he have an idea for solving problem with fees. I have prepared a quick recap what happens when:

On Feb 5 [member=5]bytemaster[/member] during hangout described whole idea starting with words: "Could we imagine a scenario where the blockchain had no fees, at all?"
On Feb 8 [member=22699]-banano-[/member] created a topic Will this community be surpporting BM's "zero fee" proposal to get micropayment? where 74 (93.7%) forum members agreed that this is a good idea.
On Feb 10 [member=5]bytemaster[/member] posted on his blog: How to build a Decentralized Application without Fees
On Feb 14 [member=18687]abit[/member] created post: Rate Limited Free Transactions Feature Implemented

On March 1 [member=18687]abit[/member] created a ticket #603 on cryptonomex/graphene github - Implement simple rate limited free transaction feature.
On March 8 [member=18687]abit[/member] created a Pull Request #612 - "Implement rate limited free transactions feature #603"

On March 2 [member=18687]abit[/member] first time (according to my knowledge) mentioned in comment of #603: "We need a BSIP document for this feature."

What happen next?

Today is April 25.

Rate Limited Free Transactions are still not a part of bitshares.

Some time ago I asked on dev slack of graphene:

This feature stucked somewhere and it seems that right now no one is finalizing a work on that.

I created this blog post in good faith, that this will help us:

- describe what is needed to finish that job (what are the blocker? Missing BSIP? Testing? Code Review? Something else????)
- develop a plan (with described steps) how to do that
- prepare a schedule for those steps with deadlines

We have to do something with that. I have a feeling that most of work is already done. It would be stupid and totally ineffective to abandon that work and this idea right now.

We got great coverage about our Prediction Market feature.... and that is bad thing, because our prediction market is terrible.

Our core developer spent 20 minutes describing how this works... and as people say in youtube coments:

This is obvious that no one would spent this amount of time to investigate how this works... and if someone will not be sure, simply will be too afraid to use it.

Amanda also didn't decide create her own prediction market smartcion... i guess... mostly because of price. I am sure, that if that would cost her only let say 100 BTS, she would create that asset.

My thoughts:

- short selling is too complicated for average Joe. I would like to just have to buttons - [BET A] or [BET not A]
- prediction smartcoins should be cheaper. Why? Because very often they will be live only... for example one week (because next football match is in next sunday). Right now there is no way to reuse those smartcoins after they are "decided".

Having "feature" like that makes us more harm than profit. Don't believe me? Go to youtube and read people comments.

I am not writing this because I want to complain. I am writing this because I believe that together we can design better look and feel for that feature.

I mentioned about big number of communication channels here:

Right now I agree, that because bitshares is decentralize project its good to have multiple options, but let's face the truth. No one use forum's chat. NO ONE.

If someone approach bitshares by visiting forum first, and then try to find someone to talk about bitshares... on this chat, then bitshares looks like long dead project. We should remove things which harms bitshares.

Technical Support / Usability Testing
« on: March 06, 2016, 09:11:51 pm »
I have created a short video with announcement, that I would like to find some people who could help me perform some Usability Tests of Bitshares... and in return I have offered exactly the same... that I can test other projects, and be recorded :)

If you have account on reddit, please upvote this thread:

I created this thread on forum, because I would like to post here all tests which I will perform.

I hope, that will help us design better Bitshares User Experience :)

Imagine that I have a lot of BTS on my account. That will give me a possibility to send a lot of transaction without any costs when abit's code will be deployed. How I can use this to do wrong things?

I can issue some asset, like NO.DILUTION or SIDECHAINS.YES or ONLY.DASH, and send some amount to every user in the network. I could then write some information in description of the coin... having hope, that someone will read it.... and I think some would read that.

After some time we can have tons of scam assets. People will be annoyed that they wallet looks like garbage.

I think Rate Limited Free Transactions will be one of the best feature of Bitshares, but we have to make sure, that they will not be used agains a network or their users.

Proposition of solution?

Maybe we should have a reputation system for all assets? All users in wallet settings could have set default value below which coins will be ignored (I mean, will not be displayed).

Of course users should be able manually override that he trust specific asset even if its reputation is below his setting for "Display assets with reputation greater than".

Maybe there are simpler ways of preventing this kind of spam attack. What are your ideas?

I hope, that concept of sidechain already took your attention. It seems that there are numerous of ways to implement that, but none of them is significantly better than other. I would like to introduce my idea of sidechain implementation. I am sure that it is not perfect. To be honest I will be surprised if nobody be able find a "no go" security reason for this approach because I am not an expert.

Nevertheless, I decided to spent some time to describe my idea in details. Maybe this will build some new perspective and will help figure out even better solution.


We are all very excited about upcoming future.

What Bytemaster describe in his blogpost - How to build a Decentralized Application without Fees should be soon delivered. Thanks to [member=18687]abit[/member] work, most of implementation is already done. He already created a Pull Request -

And... in the title of this Pull Request we have an answer to question asked in the title:

New feature should be called:

Rate limited free transactions

Why this is important? Because... term "Free transactions" is too wide... and this is not exactly what we are going to deliver. There are some requirements which need to be fulfilled to have a possibility of making a free transactions. Do you see a difference?

Of course we cannot use term:

Free Transaction*
* - if you have proper amount of money on your account.

We should not over promise, and deliver exactly what we are going to say.

Do you know why this is also important? Because I have already find out, that when people first hear about "bitshares are going to have free transactions".. they react in two ways:

- They think, that this is not possible... because they know the reality. So they think that in that case bitshares is a SCAM or Ponzi
- They believe... they are making big plans... to figure out later... that there is a catch, and they end up with disappointment.

"Rate limited free transactions" is simple term, easy to understand. We should be allergic to all simplifications, and every time when someone will use that term... we should educate them.

At the end of the day, for most users (but not all) will not have any fees at all, so they will still have very good opinion about that feature, but we cannot afford more overpromissed marketing campaigns.

General Discussion / 1st Liquidity Event - Retrospection Thread.
« on: March 02, 2016, 02:02:43 am »
On Feb 29th the first Bithsares Liquidity Event took place.

I decided to create that thread, because I am an enthusiast of Agile Development what means... that I prefer develop things in small steps, next gather feedback to perform better in next iteration.

Personally I think, that 1st Liquidity Event can be considered as Minimum Viable Product which proved that we as a community can organize such things.

In the other hand, this event for sure was not perfect. We should think about what went wrong... and what went well.

That's why am asking you for feedback. Let's use a "MADs, SADs, GLADs" convention:

The goal of this thread is to define Action Points (AP) which will be applied in next iterations... in 2nd, 3rd, etc. Liquidity Events.

So... let me start:

I am GLAD that whole event was not a total failure :P
I am GLAD that many people participated in that event
I am GLAD that LE was unexpectedly amazingly promoted via TheDailyDecrypt (LE was mentioned in 5 episodes - details) - Thank you Amanda [member=41220]TheDailyDecrypt[/member]
I am GLAD that there are people who cares about future of bitshares like [member=49]onceuponatime[/member] and [member=23432]ccedk[/member] who funded 4 weeks of TheDailyDecrypt sponsorship from own pocket, and [member=37127]JonnyBitcoin[/member] who helped coordinate that
I am GLAD that we still have liquidity on !!! :)

I am SAD that so little people twitted about LE, or upvoted an information about LE on
I am SAD that I was forced to prepare LE poster by myself... because no one prepared anything before scheduled deadline (14 Feb)... even despite the fact that I have planned to donate 5000 BTS for that, plus [member=49]onceuponatime[/member] wanted donate 4000 BTS. To be honest... I am still in shock that no one decide send anything.
I am SAD that I was confused... because on 21 Feb (after deadline, and after my poster was already send to Amanda) [member=224]cass[/member] also prepared amazing graphics. However because that was already after scheduled deadline and because I already prepared and publish myself, I didn't sent him anything. I have now some mixed feelings :(
I am SAD that I didn't know where else we should send information about LE (I had a problem to find a proper list of blogs and contacts to authors)

I am MAD at myself... because I should be better prepared from technical point of view for hangout which took place on 02-19... because when people asked about Liquidity Event details, then I started talking... and then... I lost my Internet connection (facepalm)... BTW... I realised that after... 3-4 minutes of my monolog :D
I am MAD at myself... because I had a plan to prepare some kind of instruction for newbies how to trade or borrow BTC/USD. I have started working on this... but I started too late, and I realised that I will not be able to finish that on time. It would be better if I just prepared some text instruction at least.

My thoughs and proposition of Action Points:

- Sponsorship of DailyDecrypt or similar media should not be made from private pockets. We have mechanism of worker proposals for that. And it would be great to have some kind of similar exposure to any media during next LE. Should we always ask onceuponatime or ccedk for money? No!

AP: for next LE prepare a Worker Proposal, to ask for some small amount of money for promotion.
- Who can take care about that next time? Personally I don't know how to create such worker proposal.

AP: Prepare text or video tutorial for newbies how to participate in next event
- this same here... any volunteer?

AP: We should collaborate and create list of email addresses to various authors of blogs, to which we could send some brief information with small media pack (posters, logos, etc)
- I guess.. this list should not be public, because then it will become a spam list. Any idea how we could prepare that?

General Discussion / How to improve voting participation.
« on: March 01, 2016, 12:01:28 am »
During last hangout with bytemaster one of the topic was "low participation of community in Voting".
If I am reading those stats correctly right now only small fraction of stake really votes:


Personally I think there are couples of reasons why people do not vote. I talked about that during hangout:

So in my opinion we should do something to encourage people to vote. Absolutely we should not pay them... but we should educate people about possibilities of choices.

We could use cryptofresh as provider of "short description of each proxy". We could also use blockchain as random generator, which will randomly pick featured proxy. Every 10 minutes featured proxy will changed... or every time when wallet will be opened.

Personally I am against to the idea of paying for advertisement time in the wallet. Everyone (even without big amount of money) should have equal rights to be promoted.

This is just the sketch which illustrate the whole idea. I have tried to keep this simple, but maybe some additionall link to forum should also be added. The most important thing is, If user will find good proxy for him, then he can vote with a single click of the button.

I am waiting for your feedback, comments and your ideas :)

General Discussion / Dilution in ...communication channels
« on: February 25, 2016, 12:54:06 pm »
In my opinion community is the most important thing for each cryptocurrency. When new user approach bitshares first time for sure he or she has a lot of questions.

Right now there are 6 IM communication channels (which I am aware of) used by community:

and... a lot of people thinks that we need another one: trollbox in wallet

As you can guess... this bring a lot of dilution for our community. In new user's eyes we may seem to be very small group of people... which is simply not true!

Each mentioned communication channel was created for a reason. Some of them for sure will not be removed because of unique technical features, like Mumble which is audio conference tool not just simple IM.

What we need is Strategy. Here are few my propositions:
  • we should have main communication channel promoted by whole community. In my opinion the main candidate should be brand new IM on official subdomain looks very elegant.
  • we should remove link to chat on forum ( from forum's header. I never seen anyone there. In my opinion it is completely abandon. We should replace link to chat with link to
  • I think we should think about building trollbox on top blockchain (bitshares blockchain... or some helper-blockchain). If I understand correctly (CC: [member=21903]roadscape[/member]), already works that way. In that case that should be easy to integrate with wallet. Why we need trollbox? IMO trollbox is a tool for traders, concentrated on what is going right now on the market.
  • if we choose as main communication channel, we should abandon Telegram
  • Dev chat is another thing. Of course I understand that Cryptonomex may need own inner communication chanel. FYI right now requires invitation. But Bitshares needs own public channel for developers. In my opinion #dev channel on It would be great if all cryptonomex employees involved in Bitshares project join that channel as well. They should be available to community.
  • Slack is not an alternative to Mumble, however we should somehow link one with another. Before each official hangout there should be send reminder about that on main #bitshares channel. In that way, more peaple will notice it.

So in the end, we should have three communication channels:
* slack
* mumble for audio conferences
* trollbox based on blockchain

General Discussion / What is the status of migration to new hardfork?
« on: February 23, 2016, 09:13:34 pm »
 It seems that poloniex right now do not withdrawl money. I know about two cases: my own transaction and another described here:

According to

Poloniex didn't sent anything to anyone within last 6 hours, but they still allow making withdrawals and they set their status as "completed".

I know that messages were sent to them, that hardfork is coming, but did they actually confirmed that they are aware of hardfork? Why I have bad feeling? :(

What is the status of other services? Could you write here already migrated services?

When you will ask Americans which currency is the most stable for them, they will answer - USD
When you will ask Chinese which currency is the most stable for them, they will answer - CNY

This is obvious, right?

So why we are selling and buying things here with BTS? This thread is of course related to [member=11011]tonyk[/member] 's thread: bitSHARES - As True Shares and Not a Currency!

When I came to bitshares, I was convinced, that bitshares has great value for companies, because there is no risk at all, when you use it as derivative asset. This is great explained here:

So... the question is, why we pay witnesses with BTS? We should ask each of them which bitAsset they prefer and give them exactly so many bitUSD/bitCNY which they need to cover their expenses - electricity, server, etc. This have different cost in different parts of the world, so why we are paying every witness exactly the same? If there are two subcontractors which can do exactly the same thing (read this closely exactly... I mean, by price, certainty, quality, downtime server, etc), we should always pick the cheapest one. In most cases big difference in price for specific service comes not from the different quality of service/product (we can always find products/service with the same quality), but from cost of developing them in specific local market. - this may seem to be controversial, but you... should think like shareholders!

Back to the witnesses, our employees should not be worried whether next month price of bitshares will cover their expenses or not.

In general, this exactly the same with all offers in our internal Market on forum -,7.0.html. They all should be in bitUSD, bitEUR, bitCNY, etc!

I also made this same mistake, when I have announced, that I will give someone 5000BTS for the best Liquidity Event poster. When I came up with this idea wondered, whether I am able to spend ~$20 for that. And right now this offer is worth $21.375. I took completely unnecessary risk.

We should try to switch to this kind of thinking. Stable assets are our greates product, so we should use them, and stop using BTS for transaction now! We do not need new implementation of bitshares as pure shares, to achieve that.

From now, I will remind people about that, every time when they will offer anyone any BTS. [member=602]fuzzy[/member] I truly believe that actually your should not allow send anything other than bitAssets.

Wiem, że ostatnio wszyscy raczej fascynują się ethereum, jednak tymczasem w bitshares dzieje się coś (co wg społeczności) może dać bitshares sporą przewagę na wieloma innymi kryptowalutami.

A mowa o całkowicie darmowych transakcjach. Np. takich, które umożliwią przesyłanie 0.00000001 BTC bez obawy, że opłata ze przesłanie wyniesie 10 razy tyle. Innymi słowy, prawdziwe mikrotransakcje.

Bytemaster - lead developer bitshares - rozpoczął prezentowanie tego pomysłu od słów [1]:

Could we imagine a scenario where the blockchain had no fees, at all?

Według mnie najzabawniejsze w tym jest to, w jakich bólach ten pomysł się urodził. Bitshares ma wbudowaną pierwszą(?) zdecentralizowaną giełdę, która w przeciwieństwie do giełd zdecentralizowanych jak mtgox, nie może być zhackowana za pomocą przełamania zabezpieczeń pojedynczego komputera. Owa giełda, wszystkie rzeczy zapisuje w blockchainnie. Wszystko... orderbook, transakcje na giełdzie itd. Problem był taki, że dotychczas można było na giełdzie wystawić 100000 orderów na 0.00000001 i zaspamować sieć.

By temu przeciwdziałać, wprowadzono opłaty, które czyniły taki atak nieopłacalnym. Problem natomiast przerodził się w to, że praktycznie wszystko zostało później obłożone opłatami (małymi, ale jednak), co sprawiło, że całe bitshares od momentu startu wersji 2.0 raczej tylko traciły użytkowników.

W świecie bitshares wszystkie opłaty mogą być dynamicznie ustalane poprzez społeczność za pomocą głosowania opartego na PoS, które również jest wbudowane w blockchain. Przez ostatnie miesiące wśród użytkowników toczyła się batalia czy daną opłatę zwiększyć o kilka centów, czy zmniejszyć a powiększyć inną. Prawdziwy shitstorm.

I tak oto, największa wada bitshares ma okazję przerodzić się w największą jego zaletę, bowiem okazało się, że potrzebę opłat da się całkowicie obejść :) Prawdopodobnie, gdyby nie wcześniejszy odpływ użytkowników, nikt by na ten pomysł nie wpadł, bowiem nie było by takiego parcia na obniżenie opłat.

Dużo się teraz dzieje w tym temacie. Pomysł jest świeży, ale raczej wszyscy mają pewność, że bytemaster jest w stanie to zaimplementować dość szybko.

Na koniec parę linków:
- artykuł/whitepaper z analizą tematu
- wątek na forum, badający poparcie społeczności dla tego pomysłu - 93% na tak
- hangout podczas którego pomysł został ogłoszony
- raiblocks - inny projekt, którego twórca się zgłosił na forum po ogłoszeniu pomysłu bytematera, który również ma mieć darmowe transakcje
- watek na forum o możliwości podpięcia bitshares jako sidechaine'a bitcoina

Poza tym, jak już kiedyś wspomniałem... bitshares zmieniło licencję na MIT, co sprawia... że każdy może sobie zrobić forka i prędzej czy później taki system do miktotransakcji wprowadzić na swoje potrzeby gdzieś u siebie :)

Did you heard about Brave Browser? No?

Here you have:

this is browser created by former Mozilla CEO Brendan Eich, which integrate bitoins to it.

I have just created an ticket in their github (I hope, that this is the right place, and they will notice it).

Daniel Larimer ([member=5]bytemaster[/member]) - lead developer of cryptonomex lately proposed an idea of new way of charging fees in the bitshares network. Briefly... bitshares can be a fee-less blockchain, allowing for truly micropayments.

In first poll [91,5% of bitshares community](,21359.0.html) support this idea, what means that probably in near future this will be implemented.

I believe that cooperation of brave and bitshares can introduce a lot of new possibilities. People could not only send fractions of bitcoins, but actually fractions of stable bitAssets like bitUSD or bitCNY.

Moreover, sites could giveaway custom tokens (which are very easy to create on bitshares) to their readers/users, which can act like shares of blog/site/service. In that way, owner of the website can not only offer a ads free service for tiny price, but also a revenue from profits of website/blog.

It would be great deal in the future, to trade "RedditSupporter" asset for a discount buying a airplane ticket on (both services were created by A. Ohanian). Possibilities are endless :)

What do you think about this idea? I wrote an ticket, but maybe direct approach by [member=5]bytemaster[/member] could be better.

Marketplace / What would you like to buy with bitshares?
« on: February 08, 2016, 01:01:59 am »
Maybe this is a silly question, but I am curious for what there is the biggest demand among bitshares community.

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