Quote from: Rune on February 04, 2015, 09:48:44 pm

Quote from: wesphily on February 04, 2015, 09:35:34 pm

"(since most people understand that a coin does not confer any legal rights or responsibilities)."

This is not a true statement. Crypto currency is considered property. People have the right of ownership which is a legal right It is also a tax liability which is a responsibility
You also need to be very careful with the words you use. If ownership of a coin is supposed to represent ownership in a company similar to a share/security then it will be treated legally that way implicitly. Doesn't matter if there is a document or not. Really, it is worse if you don't have documents because a malicisous person could utilize this fact to black mail you.

All of this is assuming that CFS is a legal entity. (LLC/s-corp/c-corp/ect...) If it only exists in crypto technology and not on a document then I'm not sure how it will be treated since it isn't a legal company. I got road blocked on this when trying to utilize bitshares for Real Estate. A crypto company does not have the ability to own real property. (real property = real estate) There is too much red tape for a small timer like me to use bitshares for a legal company that can own real property.

I'm glad to get some input on this.

Cryptohedge is a DAC and will only ever exist on the bitshares blockchain and owning CFSCOIN does not give you anything other than owning CFSCOIN. For now, CFSCOIN is backed purely by the reputation of Riverhead and me (i.e. it will have value to people who believe we are going to do with it what we have said we plan to do with it).

My vision for how it will end up in its final decentralized "true DAC state" is where the only way it can interface with the real world is through contract-free compensation of employees (delegate style), and reputation based custodianship of client funds. The idea is to create a web of trust that starts out with me and riverhead and expands to include more employees, and could eventually potentially include trusted anonymous employees (trustable, yet untargetable by LE). The DAC should ultimately be 100% controlled by voting done by CFSCOIN holders, and the counterparty exposure that CFSGOLD and other assets get should be moved from Riverhead and me onto the CFSCOIN voters as a whole (through voting controlled smart contracts somehow ).

You are safe for now. If bitshares fulfills what it says it wants to then this will change. You'll have to adapt. I would not be surprised if the SEC considered the act of holding shares and having decision making power makes the property a security and the investors limited partners. Although it would not be a documented company it could be seen legally as acting like one which would put it in SEC court.

Again, you are probably safe for now, BUT I would advise that you save back for a good lawyer.

Yeah, I agree that it's pretty certain that I, personally, will be targeted for illegal fundraising eventually, no matter how much I insist on it being "contract free" or "just a coin". But that will only happen if BTS gets big enough to get noticed and in that case I should be able to afford whatever fine I'm given

The most important thing is that people who buy our UIA's should not be at any risk of getting their funds seized if me or someone else gets targeted.

"(since most people understand that a coin does not confer any legal rights or responsibilities)."

This is not a true statement. Crypto currency is considered property. People have the right of ownership which is a legal right It is also a tax liability which is a responsibility
You also need to be very careful with the words you use. If ownership of a coin is supposed to represent ownership in a company similar to a share/security then it will be treated legally that way implicitly. Doesn't matter if there is a document or not. Really, it is worse if you don't have documents because a malicisous person could utilize this fact to black mail you.

All of this is assuming that CFS is a legal entity. (LLC/s-corp/c-corp/ect...) If it only exists in crypto technology and not on a document then I'm not sure how it will be treated since it isn't a legal company. I got road blocked on this when trying to utilize bitshares for Real Estate. A crypto company does not have the ability to own real property. (real property = real estate) There is too much red tape for a small timer like me to use bitshares for a legal company that can own real property.

I'm glad to get some input on this.

Cryptohedge is a DAC and will only ever exist on the bitshares blockchain and owning CFSCOIN does not give you anything other than owning CFSCOIN. For now, CFSCOIN is backed purely by the reputation of Riverhead and me (i.e. it will have value to people who believe we are going to do with it what we have said we plan to do with it).

My vision for how it will end up in its final decentralized "true DAC state" is where the only way it can interface with the real world is through contract-free compensation of employees (delegate style), and reputation based custodianship of client funds. The idea is to create a web of trust that starts out with me and riverhead and expands to include more employees, and could eventually potentially include trusted anonymous employees (trustable, yet untargetable by LE). The DAC should ultimately be 100% controlled by voting done by CFSCOIN holders, and the counterparty exposure that CFSGOLD and other assets get should be moved from Riverhead and me onto the CFSCOIN voters as a whole (through voting controlled smart contracts somehow ).

We at Cryptohedge have decided to create our investor token already, so we can easily do accounting in the share rewards that early employees get. We have also had several people reach out to us because they were interested in helping the project, and we want to make it possible for us to compensate everyone who does work for the DAC from the very beginning.

CFSCOIN is the Cryptohedge investor token, and will eventually take on the properties of CFS as outlined in the cryptohedge announcement post and business case. Over time we might still register CFS and switch over to using that instead, but for now we will use CFSCOIN in order to save investor funds, and also to emphasize the contract free nature of Cryptohedge (since most people understand that a coin does not confer any legal rights or responsibilities).

There have been issued 1 million CFSCOIN, and most of them will initially be used as a means of paying "salary" to those who help and work for Cryptohedge. Riverhead and I will retain centralized control over how to compensate employees in the early days of the DAC. We don't expect the asset to be liquid, but employees will be free to hold or put their stake up on the market.

Anyone who is interested in working for Cryptohedge in exchange for CFSCOIN and have something they think can contribute should PM me and we can discuss it. We will likely follow the delegate model and expect to see real work done before we begin to pay you anything.

Over time the value proposition of CFSCOIN will change as we begin to burn shares with a portion of the income earned from our HedgeBots (this will be up to 30% of their income, as described in the business case). This will begin at the time of the CFSGOLD sharedrop, where we will also begin to run our own market making bots on the CFSCOIN/USD market in order to make it fully liquid. The sharedrop to CFSGOLD holders will be for 150,000 out of the 1 million CFSCOIN (so it will be 15% instead of 10%).

We are not going to make an IBO for 40% of the shares the way I described it earlier, as I realise it is more efficient to pay people in CFSCOIN and let them cash out over time when they want to, or slowly sell off CFSCOIN over time in order to raise funds for a project. As written the distribution of the 1 million CFSCOIN will be fully controlled by Riverhead and I, and will be spent with the ultimate aim of increasing the price of CFSCOIN (i.e. as payment for something that adds higher value to the DAC).

The total supply of CFSCOIN can increase in the future if shareholders determine that this will be profitable, perhaps something that can be done through smart contracts that allow the UIA to elect "delegates" that pay themselves salary by inflating new CFSCOIN. This way the DAC will not have its employees controlled by a central authority, but will instead have all employees responding directly to the holders of CFSCOIN and their votes, just like BTS works. This is of course still something that is far off and will not be done before Cryptohedge is already successful, and BitShares has implemented the relevant smart contract systems.

Also just for fun I'm going to do a small giveaway for 100 CFSCOIN from my personal stake to anyone who posts their registered BTS names in this thread

very good idea!
It will certainly help the bitshares project to succeed !

I have already bought some CFSGOLD , but I have to make one question...
Why is the supply 20 CFSGOLD right now and not 10 CFSGOLD? Have you already found a big investor that bought 10 CFSGOLD? Am I missing something?

I had a buyer contact me who was interested in buying 10 bitgold. Since the supply of bitgold already on the books wasn't exhausted I just put up an extra 10 bitgold.

Question: Why do you  need outside money for  this? I assume you've already designed the trading bots. Why not just run them yourselves and take 100% of the earnings instead of giving 70% to CFSGOLD holders? You're not going to need a million dollars to provide liquidity on BTC:bitGOLD.

You're launching with 10-20 CFSGOLD. That's not exactly big money.

Launching with the small amount of BitGold is just to test the funding system. We hope that once BitGold and other assets get started and our hedgebots begin providing a return we can scale CFSGOLD and other CFS assets as reliable, low risk financial products that will appeal to investors outside the bitshares community as well and drive attention and users to bitshares.

Regarding the expected return. I'm actually having a hard time figuring out the best way to model it, because it's impossible for us to predict how much demand there will be for actually trading bitgold on the exchange platforms themselves (rather than buy into bitgold to hold or maybe use it as an on ramp for BTS). Depending on the kind of trading people do we can accomodate it with smaller or larger pools of capital. I'm considering that a better way to offer CFS assets is with a fixed return rather than the current model, because with the current model all CFS asset holders will have their return reduced every time new CFSGOLD is issued.

大家好

Riverhead和我启动了一个DAC叫Cryptohedge。这个DAC的目的是交易BitGold/BTC在比特币的交易平台。比特金流动了以后我们要关注比特银，比特石油等。现在还只是我们的"软启动”，把一些CFSGOLD卖在内盘。欢迎看这个帖子了解一下：https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=13904.0

我们来中国社区的bbs因为需要你们帮助我们让每个支持BTS的交易平台还要支持BitGold。我觉得比特金是最会市场我们的BitAssets其中，因为喜欢比特币的人平常也喜欢金。每个比特币的交易平台已经有USD,CNY,nubits等。但是没有一个比特币交易平台有金，所以我们比特金会在行业中独树一帜。

我已经跟bter，btc38和云币联系了。可是我的中文水平不够跟他们说中文，所以我只跟英语的员工说话了，速度不太快。cryptohedge已经有十多个bitgold准备好了。如果中国社区能帮助我们让这些交易平台支持BitGold/BTC，我们很快会让BitGold的流动性跟bitUSD和bitCNY一样的。:)

So I've been writing out fancy official looking business emails from rune@cryptohedge.io to the 5 exchanges that currently have BTS trading on them (the project actually started because I thought this would be the best method to push bitassets ) . I've gotten some responses but it's going a bit slow since we at cryptohedge do not have any connections to any of these exchanges, so now I'm gonna try turning to the community for help.

Getting BitGold out there is probably the best kind of marketing we can do in the short term, since BitGold is an asset people might buy into even if they aren't interested in BTS, because people who are in crypto often love gold as well. I think we need to focus on BitGold/BTC first. It's a pair that will move a lot, and getting BTC onto an exchange is easy. It will also enable shapeshift to integrate BitGold on their service. We can get BitUSD later, then BitCNY, BitSilver, BitOil... etc. Once an exchange has implemented one BitAsset and seen high volume from it, it will be easy to get them to support more.

I'm hoping our community can come together and contact every one of these exchanges until they all implement BitGold. We want at least one exchange to trade BitGold ASAP so we can start shouting out that "now you can easily trade bitcoin for decentralized gold" and put the cryptohedge funds on there. Timing is key, so we should all pursue this with all available resources until it happens! The sooner we get it the better.

Here's a list of the 5 exchanges and the best way I could find to contact them about adding a new coin. If you know a better way to contact them that the way i found, please write it thanks

Poloniex:

https://poloniex.com/coinRequest

In "announcement thread" you can put the bitasset whitepaper, since there is no btt announcement for bitgold. http://docs.bitshares.org/content/
Also I wrote BITGOLD as ticker.

Bittrex:

Best i could find was: media@bittrex.com
Really weird they don't have an email or a system for adding new coins when they seem to be the most "accepting“ altcoin exchange out there.

Bter:

Bter has a voting system for new altcoins. But before we can get bitgold listed in the voting system we have to recommend it to them first: http://support.bter.com/hc/en-us/requests/new

Btc38:

This isn't easy as there isn't an easy way to get in touch with english staff. I submitted a support ticket explaining bitgold and asking who to contact to get new coins listed. Haven't received a response yet.

Yunbi:

support@yunbi.com this email isn't necessarily read by someone who speaks english. If you're going to recommend them to add BitGold/BTC, you can put 比特金 (bitgold) in the title to make sure they understand that you want bitgold.

Mining bitUSD isn't gonna make a big difference I think. Most large miners instantly sell their blocks OTC for fiat already, or send them to an exchange account that automatically insta-dumps. Minebitshares only makes sense for people who are actual bitshares supporters. The thing we need to market is the light wallet with shapeshift. That's really the most important thing because it has the possibility to disrupt all bitcoin spending wallets and it's finally a product that can actually be sold on its own merit rather than visions and promises.