Proposal to Resolve a Million Issues at Once

[gaoshen2005]

Has toast stopped the development of Keyid？If so and no other team will continue the work, keyid is going to die?

[roadscape]

For anyone that missed it:

Coming to a theater this Halloween:

Starring Daniel Larimer as “the Bytemaster:”

THE MERGER...

focus on building everything into BTS until such a time that someone wants to clone BTS and focus on a smaller demographic and "specialize"... (and then, at that point, we divide and conquer, from the position of highest possible DPOS market cap leader)(position yourself for battle before you fight it since nobody is fighting us with DPOS yet)

If you are investing in BTSX technology because of BitAssets and what that enables.... the value is in the BitAssets which appear to be working...  then this proposal is really about preventing the dilution of BitAssets on 20 different DACs leading to user confusion (my next 20 projects).   

TL/DR: Become the biggest DPOS until a real competitor emerges.  A real competitor is any coin that forks DPOS (because the only thing that we all can seem to agree upon 100% in unison here is that DPOS beats POW, so lets start our consensus journey from that common unanimous agreement), because until Google clones DPOS, and launches “GOG the destroyer of BTSX,” (PeerPonziD is not a true competitor) then Bytemaster's next coin will be competing directly with BTSX for venture capitalist attention.  And although Dan has yet to reach La Mancha, he is making his second attempt with the acquired wisdom from all his previous DPOS launches; and in a vehicle that looks nearly identical to BTSX, because, IT IS A CLONE.  And what are the mathematical odds that Michaelangelo fails to learn from his mistakes?

Know this:  Dan will try his absolute hardest to create a better DAC the second time around (the same way he tried to create the best DAC the first time around). 

Ah, ha.  There it is..realization....The MERGER...What will they say? ….. Tune in this fall...Or next week depending on when the BitShares community wants to see their share price stabilize and rise.  The BitShares community gets to choose their market cap, lets see what they choose for themselves and their families...

“What is the value for eliminating confusion in this space? (when big time marketers are holding back their collaborative efforts and funding unless we merge into or generate a consistent and simple vision)” -BM (TL/DR of mumbleserversession)

And if we cannot merge into a cohesive, simple, CENTRAL vision, then BM will have no choice but to flatter the Winklevii with his next project, the new and improved DPOS that will have a better chance to beat Bitcoin. 

It's that simple.  Currently, all BitShares affiliated coins are falling in value until this community reaches a simple consensus (no matter what it is).  I am neutral, and will happily agree with any consensus. 

Disclosure: I read the “BitShares Book of How to Get Rich in 10 Easy Steps (starting with step 1: solve the problem of coming to a consensus) (quickly, as if your kids' college fund depended on it)”:

bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=4146.0

Now, young Jedi be glad that you diligently studied, practiced, and honed your survival skills by learning how to quickly and efficiently come to a community consensus because now the value of this knowledge is imminently apparent, as your competitors (the free market of nature) swarm you, sucking the money out of your market caps.  As you slowly gain focus of the bigger picture, your vision now encompasses the future.  Be glad that you acquired this wisdom back in April, when your market cap was not plunging simply due to your lack of ability to draw your community into a democratic consensus.  Tell your children with pride how you sacrificed alongside Dan while working for a positive BitShares future.  Dan was too busy developing DPOS so you helped develop the:

BITSHRES COMMUNITY QUICK CONSENSUS DERIVATION PROCESS

which ended up saving the company millions in market cap due to it's ability to achieve community consensus in the blink of an eye.

Oops, we were too busy (fill in the blank) to build any consensus derivation tools.

But don't worry, because, Dan is launching a new DAC that solves this problem that we couldn't.

And how much money is this solution worth.


Lets see, Satoshi solved the Byzantine Generals Problem, and that was worth.....

Bytemaster validated the Nash Equilibrium, and then solved this problem of consensus..

All you have to do is agree on how to slice the pie before Google snatches it away.

Wait too long, and you don't get as much.

Don't worry, though, Bitcoin will experience the same problem, and they all know it.  The dreaded community civil war over a hard fork will drop their market cap too some day.  That is why BitSharesVOTE (BTV) beats BTC and BTSX.

coindesk.com/gavin-andresen-bitcoin-hard-fork/

BitSharesVOTE is Dan doing for you now what you should have done for us then:

Step 1: solve (the) problem of coming to a consensus:

The fastest way for our community to reach a consensus....

List your personal favorite proposal at the end of your post so that we can see who is thinking what. It will greatly improve our communication as a group, and assist us on reaching our goal of gaining a unifying social consensus on a single concept.

That way everyone else can choose to either accept or reject individual ideas line by line.  Bite sized progress.  The entrepreneurs who are on the fence trying to decide weather or not they want to honor PTS/AGS holders will be able to see how quickly your personal rule set changes relative to that of the Bitshares community.  We want to show entrepreneurs that we are learning, and adapting quickly.  This will allow consensus to be reached in the shortest amount of time.

it is my job to actually read his post and change my proposal to reflect the consensus.  I will provide effort to better the group, and if everyone provides the same effort, then we will reach a consensus in record time.  if bytemaster comes over here, and he is proposing 3% instead of my 4% proposal, then I will change mine to reflect his because we all know that his ideas hold more consensus pooling power.  Again, if I see that my numbers can be slightly adjusted to match the social consensus, then I will change mine to become one with the group.  Maybe we will see that we all are pretty much in consensus currently?

Let's show off our collaboration skills by treating this obstacle like an exercise that will make us a more useful community (a toolkit for inventors).

If everyone knows exactly what everyone else is thinking, then we reach a consensus sooner.  Then DA devs will flock here and honor your PTS/AGS.

Act like you want and deserve to get paid, and you just might.

Stay on track in this thread and steps 2-10 will be revealed later

How long will you wait?

How much time and money will you freely give to your competitors?

How much pain will you choose to inflict on yourself, your friends, and your family?

Do pay for gridlock or open your wallet to the abundance of a universe whose capacity is unimaginable?

youtube.com/watch?v=ZpJoMuuE3Eg

I choose zero seconds, what say you?

Why do you choose to have nightmares?   Consciousness is deeper than our thinking mind can directly control.   

It takes time to recondition our thoughts on all levels. 

But I can say that I have seen smaller changes happen and we are on the verge of making huge breakthroughs on free energy and free markets.   Why?  Because I changed my view on the world from one where I was going to survive mad max as a farmer to one where wealth was abundant about 3 months prior to starting bitshares.   

Had i held to prior beliefs the world would have gone a different direction.

The choice is yours:  Fear or Love:

youtube.com/watch?v=YoB8t0B4jx4

If we don't merge BTSX and VOTE, don't you think that our competitors will?

Then good luck competing with the Voltron that we made but are fighting it with only 5 lions:

rufiojones.files.wordpress.com/2011/01/voltron1.jpg

Do you see the inevitability of the evolution of the merger?

It will happen eventually, with or without you.

So what will you take for it?

Or will you give it away?

TL/DR: Become the biggest DPOS until a real competitor emerges.  A real competitor is any coin that forks DPOS (because the only thing that we all can seem to agree upon 100% in unison here is that DPOS beats POW, so lets start our consensus journey from that common unanimous agreement), because until Google clones DPOS, and launches “GOG the destroyer of BTSX,” (PeerPonziD is not a true competitor) then Bytemaster's next coin will be competing directly with BTSX for venture capitalist attention.  And although Dan has yet to reach La Mancha, he is making his second attempt with the acquired wisdom from all his previous DPOS launches; and in a vehicle that looks nearly identical to BTSX, because, IT IS A CLONE.  And what are the mathematical odds that Michaelangelo fails to learn from his mistakes?

Ah, ha.  There it is..realization....The MERGER...What will they say? ….. Tune in this fall...Or next week depending on when the BitShares community wants to see their share price stabilize and rise.  The BitShares community gets to choose their market cap, lets see what they choose for themselves and their families...

[oldman]

we discussed the "merged-mining" proposal in the hangout yesterday .. and IMHO would should go the other way round and focus all power in one blockchain .. and gather speed ...

once the market can stand on it's own .. the blockchain features can be "spinned off" the main business and be run on a separated chain using the same assets/delegates .. but different chain/feature set ..

Xeroc can you explain to me why a couple weeks ago the company line was that some secret marketing plus a bitUSD debit card was poised to rocket BTSX above all our wildest expectations, but now all of a sudden the chains need to be consolidated in order to "stand on it's own"?

Were they wrong before or is it bullshit now?

I don't mean to sound combative, I respect you, your opinion and all you've done for this venture thus far.  It is a genuine question.

Thanks buddy.

I hear you. The lack of marketing transparency is frustrating. The lack of any marketing effort that shareholders can see is frustrating. Constantly changing plans at a whim is frustrating. Naive as it may be, I'm holding onto hope this is a step in the direction of simplicity, organization and focus.

The flip side of the lack of marketing to-date... imagine trying to streamline with a broader user base.

If the devs tried to go to BTS post-market push it would have been a nightmare.

Silver linings and all that.

[davidpbrown]

It's true.. the biggest positive will be the network effect. If one of the DACs takes off in a big way that will reduce the burden of marketing on others. If the legal liability is not an issue then go ahead.. it's the right time as it's early days but do it fast and sharp. If there is a clear intent to spin off and distribute successful DACs later on, that would be a positive, without a clear way to reduce the risk from being within the same one system, there would be questions about the single point of failure later on. Do we really want one bug to rue them all?

[roadscape]

Read my call to action, post your thoughts. The team is waiting for us to build consensus.

[davidpbrown]

I havnt got round to reading through all 25 pages.

So, after snap shot PTS price can expect to drop to zero?

AGS no longer used for snap shots?

New snap shots taken from BitsharesX?

Third party DACs using bitshares tool kit must take a snap shot from BitsharesX?

DNS, music, Gaming etc running on BitsharesX blockchain?

If someone wants to invest in the future of the DACs industry they would need to buy bitsharesX shares?

Continued development on the bitshares toolkit?

Yeah.. because today single point of failure is a good thing. erm...no that's wrong.. because .. oh crap I had it a moment ago.

[MrJeans]

I havnt got round to reading through all 25 pages.

So, after snap shot PTS price can expect to drop to zero?

AGS no longer used for snap shots?

New snap shots taken from BitsharesX?

Third party DACs using bitshares tool kit must take a snap shot from BitsharesX?

DNS, music, Gaming etc running on BitsharesX blockchain?

If someone wants to invest in the future of the DACs industry they would need to buy bitsharesX shares?

Continued development on the bitshares toolkit?

[Method-X]

we discussed the "merged-mining" proposal in the hangout yesterday .. and IMHO would should go the other way round and focus all power in one blockchain .. and gather speed ...

once the market can stand on it's own .. the blockchain features can be "spinned off" the main business and be run on a separated chain using the same assets/delegates .. but different chain/feature set ..

Xeroc can you explain to me why a couple weeks ago the company line was that some secret marketing plus a bitUSD debit card was poised to rocket BTSX above all our wildest expectations, but now all of a sudden the chains need to be consolidated in order to "stand on it's own"?

Were they wrong before or is it bullshit now?

I don't mean to sound combative, I respect you, your opinion and all you've done for this venture thus far.  It is a genuine question.

Thanks buddy.

I hear you. The lack of marketing transparency is frustrating. The lack of any marketing effort that shareholders can see is frustrating. Constantly changing plans at a whim is frustrating. Naive as it may be, I'm holding onto hope this is a step in the direction of simplicity, organization and focus.

[jsidhu]

Yup people are scared of uncertainty... usually like I said before.. smart investors are investing based on decisions and not technology... and if the decisions are good then investors will come... right now the decisions are either game-breaking or game-changing so since its either or (1 or 0) alot of people decided on a wait and see approach instead of going all in or staying all in... but like I also said before most of the decisions made thus far look good in hind-sight and and brought btsx above or at the closest competition and this could take it head and shoulders above competition if it is the right move.

Anyways I will leave it best explained by a quote by the great Arthur Schopenhauer.

"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident."

Right now its in the first phase of ridiculed/opposed, but in hindsight might be self-evident (why would we have done it any other way?) style thinking.

Bitcoin itself is in the first stage (you ask a banker about bitcoin and he will ridicule it)

[xeroc]

Xeroc can you explain to me why a couple weeks ago the company line was that some secret marketing plus a bitUSD debit card was poised to rocket BTSX above all our wildest expectations, but now all of a sudden the chains need to be consolidated in order to "stand on it's own"?

Were they wrong before or is it bullshit now?

I don't mean to sound combative, I respect you, your opinion and all you've done for this venture thus far.  It is a genuine question.

Thanks buddy.

AFAIK the 'big marketing' push will still be solely for BTSX ... and thus far nothing changed ...

however, it seems that the features of VOTE are superior to the features of BTSX in such a way that the market cap of VOTE could rise faster and higher then the cap of BTSX ... which is pure speculation .. so far almost nothing is known about VOTE (except that it might be turing complete)

people went crazy because of the uncertainty .. imho

anyway .. with the most recent changes .. all of the above is obsolete (in my post)

[jsidhu]

I think all of those "secret" sauces including the new vote "secret sauce" and the credit union/debit card idea is still plausible however as we got closer to final a working solution and putting more thought into it I believed it clicked in the dev's heads that it will make it more effective if we pool all the resources into one rocket and let it try to reach space (network affect)... so that an even more profound result can be seem on your price chart.

One thing I have about the dilution is that... if you are diluting btsx (and I didn't read all of the threads so I may be misinterpreting) to merge&acquire the other dacs, wouldn't it favour the other dacs like in traditional m&a with equities... the newly acquired stock is bought because it will be averaged into the bigger stock marketcap... and the bigger stock is sold off. So in effect after N merges into M master chain, you will have an averaging effect on price of M based on the the prices of N... and ofcourse those N prices are very low so it will benefit anyone holding N and hurt anyone holding M. Is this true?

[Empirical1.1]

from my point of view peertracks wants to uproot bitshares as bank. It seems unwieldy for them to embark on the path of creating a new bitUSD backed by their own company stock, unless, they think they can leave bitshares bitUSD behind in the dust. for them to beat bitshares bitUSD, the first step is to have a well capitalized stock so that many bitUSD can be shorted. And second to have superior incentive to buy their bitUSD. peertracks looks capable to meet both these criteria.

has it been considered for a DAC like music or vote or DNS, which may want to have a dollar token for unit of exchange, instead to printing new bitUSD against their newbie stock, to instead accept payment in user-issued bitUSD IOUS?

It's the same concept of bitstamp taking dollar deposits and issuing IOUS on the ripple ledger. this is transferring the dollar from the bank ledger to ripple ledger. A bitUSD/peertrack gateway would take deposits in bitshares bitUSD, issue IOUS on peertracks and correspondingly redeem / destroy those IOUS.

any BitUSD on a separate chain is a competing currency with bitshares bitUSD.  we need to convince DACS to user our bitUSD not to create their own.

Yes peertracks or Vote are BitAsset threats. You can't convince them because they gain a lot of value when people buy BitUSD backed by their own stock.

This is one of the reasons BM wants a superDAC I believe, - to bootstrap one main BitShares BitUSD then other DACs will only have MusicUSD etc. which won't have a lot of functionality outside their system. If we really bootstrap then other DACs will have to accept BitUSD because that is what most of the market is using.

If you want a BitShares DAC to win the race, we can't compete for network effect amongst ourselves or compete for BM's attention. Hence the need for one SuperDAC. Also if we make the SuperDAC then we own  'BitUSD' no-one else can say they have 'BitUSD' as it's not fungible with ours, they have to have MusicUSD etc.

[amencon]

we discussed the "merged-mining" proposal in the hangout yesterday .. and IMHO would should go the other way round and focus all power in one blockchain .. and gather speed ...

once the market can stand on it's own .. the blockchain features can be "spinned off" the main business and be run on a separated chain using the same assets/delegates .. but different chain/feature set ..

Xeroc can you explain to me why a couple weeks ago the company line was that some secret marketing plus a bitUSD debit card was poised to rocket BTSX above all our wildest expectations, but now all of a sudden the chains need to be consolidated in order to "stand on it's own"?

Were they wrong before or is it bullshit now?

I don't mean to sound combative, I respect you, your opinion and all you've done for this venture thus far.  It is a genuine question.

Thanks buddy.

[ag]

from my point of view peertracks wants to uproot bitshares as bank. It seems unwieldy for them to embark on the path of creating a new bitUSD backed by their own company stock, unless, they think they can leave bitshares bitUSD behind in the dust. for them to beat bitshares bitUSD, the first step is to have a well capitalized stock so that many bitUSD can be shorted. And second to have superior incentive to buy their bitUSD. peertracks looks capable to meet both these criteria.

has it been considered for a DAC like music or vote or DNS, which may want to have a dollar token for unit of exchange, instead to printing new bitUSD against their newbie stock, to instead accept payment in user-issued bitUSD IOUS?

It's the same concept of bitstamp taking dollar deposits and issuing IOUS on the ripple ledger. this is transferring the dollar from the bank ledger to ripple ledger. A bitUSD/peertrack gateway would take deposits in bitshares bitUSD, issue IOUS on peertracks and correspondingly redeem / destroy those IOUS.

any BitUSD on a separate chain is a competing currency with bitshares bitUSD.  we need to convince DACS to user our bitUSD not to create their own.

[zerosum]

I have a counterproposal: fork all of the other DACs (except AGS) and create a system for "merge mining" them with BTSX. This way they stay on their own blockchains but use the single set of delegates from BTSX. We'd have to resolve the burn rate issued and they can be given the option to vote away from merged mining at any time. This solution keeps the allocations and blockchains the same (no complaints from anyone about "fairness") but consolidates delegates.

Is it even possible to "merge mine" a DPOS blockchain?

Yes, it is possible, though different than merged mining in the PoW sense. One potential solution for determining burn rate is to allow each user to vote for the following options:

1) merged mining with BTSX with a preferred burn rate
2) non-merged mining (regular voting for delegates)

The system then takes the preferred burn rates of ALL merged mining votes and calculates an average burn rate, which is paid to all BTSX delegates who choose to merge mine the DAC. It is true that bandwidth constraints would limit each delegate to merge mining a limited number of DACs, but that will sustain the Bitshares ecosystem until separate chains are justified (we will probably not have more than a handful viable DACs for near term).

I have always wondered if it would be possible to potentially have one delegate that effectively works for multiple chains at once--this would cost substantially less and significantly increase the value proposition for delegates...

This was answered during the last emergency mumble session... sorry you could not attend.   
The answer is, and expectedly so - Yes!