Author Topic: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement  (Read 46448 times)

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Offline pc

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Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
« Reply #60 on: November 30, 2014, 09:16:08 pm »
"Upgrading PTS to DPOS has been planned for a long time, only nobody at I3 had the time to do it."
     If this was the intent of I3 then why did they very deliberately kill BitsharesPTS in order to merge it's value into BTS?

"From a purely technical perspective of course we're starting a new chain with a genesis block based on a snapshot from the old chain. There's really no other way to do it." 
     You want to start a new social consensus blockchain based on the Bitshares toolkit and airdrop on former PTS holders..that's it in a nutshell. That part I have no problem with. The problem is you state that future DAC's using the Bitshares toolkit are "invited" to honor your new social consensus but why would they? Because you have fraudulently called yourself the "new" BitsharesPTS. This looks like a copy and paste, pump and dump trading off a dead coin's brand and hijacked name...crypto coat-tail riding. And your response it "there's no other way to do it?".

"You can stay on the PoW chain and see where it leads. Most likely it won't lead anywhere but simply stop in its tracks."
     THAT WAS THE INTENTION. That was the whole purpose of merging PTS, AGS and all the others. So that there would be one place to snapshot for future DAC's wanting to honor the social consensus. BTS is what represents the Bitshares community not what you're doing. Your blockchain might have a use to some other crypto community but we are already united behind BTS.

It seems that you are not quite up to date regarding that merger. If you read the october newsletter you'll see that BTSX, DNS and VOTE were merged into BTS. It doesn't say anything about PTS and AGS being merged. I3 did not "kill PTS", and I don't think you know what their intention was - in fact BM and Stan have repeatedly said that PTS will continue to exist after the nov-5 snapshot.


"Therefore, the upgrade is mandatory from an economical perspective."
    That's like saying "here, I'm going to give you some free crypto in my new unrelated blockchain and you should take it because it's mandatory from an economic perspective." Try to understand, you are not updating PTS, PTS is DEAD..thus you are not adding value to it, because it no longer exists. It's value has been transferred to BTS. You are squatting on the name.

PTS is not dead, obviously. The chain is still alive. It is being traded on the exchanges. Much of its value has been transferred to BTS, true. That's because bm has decided to create a Super-DAC instead of many independent special-purpose DACs, each of which would have sharedropped on PTS. But for 3rd party DACs the social consensus continues to exist and is being honoured (see Sparkles).
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Offline islandking

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Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
« Reply #61 on: November 30, 2014, 09:17:34 pm »
That was the whole purpose of merging PTS, AGS and all the others. So that there would be one place to snapshot for future DAC's wanting to honor the social consensus. BTS is what represents the Bitshares community not what you're doing. Your blockchain might have a use to some other crypto community but we are already united behind BTS.

I agree 100%. I think that BTS is the social consensus for 3rd party developers. It is the superDAC. PTS and AGS were both given stakes in it and it no longer makes sense to snapshot to them. BTS has a larger userbase and BTS is distributed a lot better then AGS or PTS, so it gives developers more exposure to their DAC.

I think everyone should just hold BTS for future snapshots. But I am NOT against PTS, I may actually buy some. It really depends on whether or not you think 3rd party developers will continue to honor it.
I've been working on a new electronic cash system that's fully peer-to-peer, with no trusted third party. - Satoshi

Offline islandking

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Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
« Reply #62 on: November 30, 2014, 09:19:59 pm »
I really hope that these BTS vs PTS arguments do not divide our community.
I've been working on a new electronic cash system that's fully peer-to-peer, with no trusted third party. - Satoshi

Offline pc

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Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
« Reply #63 on: November 30, 2014, 09:23:27 pm »
I really hope that these BTS vs PTS arguments do not divide our community.
+1

(I don't think they will.)
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Offline Empirical1.1

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Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
« Reply #64 on: November 30, 2014, 09:29:27 pm »
Quote
Imo, BitShares is a crypto-equity that changes it's supply based on the value of opportunities. PTS is a 'Crypto-money', it has no inflation on a profitable blockchain, with 10 second, anonymous, cheap transactions. As a pure crypto-currency it's far superior to Bitcoin imo even though it won't challenge BitShares.

Fully agree. But using BTS DPOS, and even an historical name that made BTS a reality without honoring BTS is a very very bad move. You will realise it when the PTS miners dump like crazy all over the place and this will have a really bad effect on BTS for new investors who don't know BTS and PTS history...

I agree they should lose BitShares from the name as it benefits neither BTS or PTS imo.

Sparkle has gone the route of combining the network effect from the entire range of BitShares supporters and then the POW crew. So it will be interesting to see how that plays out. Could be very good, don't like the name though.

For me it's pointless dropping PTS to BTS too as per your suggestion as 3rd parties would still drop to BTS if they wanted that demographic not PTS anyway...

Personally I never held much PTS.  I own a lot of PTS now though as it's becoming more like BTSX was to me - a no inflation, profitable, DPOS - So I like it for that reason. (PTS has no real funding and no immediate plans to add BitAssets as far as I know, so I can't see them really competing with BitShares.) Not sure whether third parties will find value in sharedropping to it, I think some will and I think it also has value as a superior crypto-currency/money to Bitcoin.

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Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
« Reply #65 on: November 30, 2014, 09:47:32 pm »
* After the upgrade, a complete rebrand.

Call it Dogecoin 2.0 and let the madness begin.

such dpos. much titan. many dac. wow.

 :P

Offline mf-tzo

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Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
« Reply #66 on: November 30, 2014, 09:57:32 pm »
Empirical your argument about PTS becoming what BTS was in the beginning makes sense actually and I feel like an idiot again selling off the PTS that I3 sent us back to buy back a few more BTS...I thought that PTS would be worthless and I might be wrong actually since it will be superior to bitcoin no doubt. But since I made that decision already I will be more in favor for sparkles now to serve that purpose since it will honor BTS.

Interesting times indeed again...BTS is better come up in price really soon otherwise it will lose momentum from all the new DPOS coins and people might start soon think to dump BTS to buy the low market cap DPOS coins..

Offline Stan

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Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
« Reply #67 on: November 30, 2014, 11:17:02 pm »
Will the spark snapshot be on this new chain?

No, spark snapshot will be taken at same time from old PTS (last block of PTS at December 14, UTC).

Therefore it is incumbent upon the new PTS team to make sure that the old PTS are not tradable after the December 14 snapshot.  I know there are people out there that will try to sell the old PTS after the snapshot to unsuspecting people who have not heard about the new PTS. 

This strikes me as highly unethical, even fraudulent, behavior and therefore it is sure to happen.

You should do all you can to prevent it from happening as well as warning all involved.

This is your biggest argument for the exchanges to treat this as a chain upgrade and discontinue the old one at the same time.  They won't want to collect fees in trading the old PTS known to be worth zero after the snapshot, so this would be in their best interest.

And you certainly don't need this controversy for your new PTS reputation.


Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract of any kind.   These are merely my opinions which I reserve the right to change at any time.

Offline alphaBar

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Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
« Reply #68 on: November 30, 2014, 11:23:10 pm »
Will the spark snapshot be on this new chain?

No, spark snapshot will be taken at same time from old PTS (last block of PTS at December 14, UTC).

Therefore it is incumbent upon the new PTS team to make sure that the old PTS are not tradable after the December 14 snapshot.  I know there are people out there that will try to sell the old PTS after the snapshot to unsuspecting people who have not heard about the new PTS. 

This strikes me as highly unethical, even fraudulent, behavior and therefore it is sure to happen.

You should do all you can to prevent it from happening as well as warning all involved.

This is your biggest argument for the exchanges to treat this as a chain upgrade and discontinue the old one at the same time.  They won't want to collect fees in trading the old PTS known to be worth zero after the snapshot, so this would be in their best interest.

And you certainly don't need this controversy for your new PTS reputation.

 +5% Already reached out and awaiting a response from our contacts at the exchanges.

Offline hadrian

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Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
« Reply #69 on: November 30, 2014, 11:30:37 pm »
The block production is REALLY slow with the current implementation of PTS, which I think was the main argument against proof of burn as a way to claim new DPOS PTS. It'd be lovely if someone could think of a way to use proof of burn.

Is there no way that the snapshot could be taken, as announced, in order to allocate new DPOS PTS, but then only release the new funds after old PTS is sent to a proof of burn address? Even if people have to wait for weeks for transactions to go through, would it really matter?
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Offline Empirical1.1

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Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
« Reply #70 on: November 30, 2014, 11:47:58 pm »
I would ask Gliss to update the new website for PTS on Coinmarketcap if possible.

A lot of people will be seeing PTS move there and will be trying to find out more info.

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Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
« Reply #71 on: December 01, 2014, 12:19:27 am »
Will the spark snapshot be on this new chain?

No, spark snapshot will be taken at same time from old PTS (last block of PTS at December 14, UTC).

Therefore it is incumbent upon the new PTS team to make sure that the old PTS are not tradable after the December 14 snapshot.  I know there are people out there that will try to sell the old PTS after the snapshot to unsuspecting people who have not heard about the new PTS. 

This strikes me as highly unethical, even fraudulent, behavior and therefore it is sure to happen.

You should do all you can to prevent it from happening as well as warning all involved.

This is your biggest argument for the exchanges to treat this as a chain upgrade and discontinue the old one at the same time.  They won't want to collect fees in trading the old PTS known to be worth zero after the snapshot, so this would be in their best interest.

And you certainly don't need this controversy for your new PTS reputation.

Actually the unethical behavior is on the part of PTS 2.0 (or whatever the alphaBar's PTS is called).... they can not claim they will be the only PTS after they sharedrop on PTS... Hell it is not their chain to do whatever with it -they have no legal or moral right to inform exchanges to not  honor/declare dead after their sharedrop or whatever else they like doing to it.


The block production is REALLY slow with the current implementation of PTS, which I think was the main argument against proof of burn as a way to claim new DPOS PTS. It'd be lovely if someone could think of a way to use proof of burn.

Is there no way that the snapshot could be taken, as announced, in order to allocate new DPOS PTS, but then only release the new funds after old PTS is sent to a proof of burn address? Even if people have to wait for weeks for transactions to go through, would it really matter?

Of course it can be done! But this way they will have to really be exposed to how many people actually like their coin to be the new PTS... It is much easier to just state ' We are the new PTS i.e. the new sharedrop target!'



« Last Edit: December 01, 2014, 12:21:01 am by tonyk2 »

Offline alphaBar

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Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
« Reply #72 on: December 01, 2014, 12:40:09 am »
Will the spark snapshot be on this new chain?

No, spark snapshot will be taken at same time from old PTS (last block of PTS at December 14, UTC).

Therefore it is incumbent upon the new PTS team to make sure that the old PTS are not tradable after the December 14 snapshot.  I know there are people out there that will try to sell the old PTS after the snapshot to unsuspecting people who have not heard about the new PTS. 

This strikes me as highly unethical, even fraudulent, behavior and therefore it is sure to happen.

You should do all you can to prevent it from happening as well as warning all involved.

This is your biggest argument for the exchanges to treat this as a chain upgrade and discontinue the old one at the same time.  They won't want to collect fees in trading the old PTS known to be worth zero after the snapshot, so this would be in their best interest.

And you certainly don't need this controversy for your new PTS reputation.

Actually the unethical behavior is on the part of PTS 2.0 (or whatever the alphaBar's PTS is called).... they can not claim they will be the only PTS after they sharedrop on PTS... Hell it is not their chain to do whatever with it -they have no legal or moral right to inform exchanges to not  honor/declare dead after their sharedrop or whatever else they like doing to it.


The block production is REALLY slow with the current implementation of PTS, which I think was the main argument against proof of burn as a way to claim new DPOS PTS. It'd be lovely if someone could think of a way to use proof of burn.

Is there no way that the snapshot could be taken, as announced, in order to allocate new DPOS PTS, but then only release the new funds after old PTS is sent to a proof of burn address? Even if people have to wait for weeks for transactions to go through, would it really matter?

Of course it can be done! But this way they will have to really be exposed to how many people actually like their coin to be the new PTS... It is much easier to just state ' We are the new PTS i.e. the new sharedrop target!'

Tony, there is no other choice. The PoW chain is dying or already dead. If you think a protocol change is "unethical" then you should be objecting to every one of the hard forks that BTS has had over the past few months because those are technically a "new coin" as well (not really). To state that the only "ethical" solution is to let PTS die is just bizarre. We're working hard to add value to the Bitshares ecosystem, and most of us are invested heavily in BTS as well. Nobody here feels "defrauded" by securing their funds and upgrading to a sustainable consensus protocol, which is all we are doing. If I can't convince you that we're adding value here then you are free not to invest.

Offline donkeypong

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Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
« Reply #73 on: December 01, 2014, 12:54:17 am »
* After the upgrade, a complete rebrand.

Call it Dogecoin 2.0 and let the madness begin.

such dpos. much titan. many dac. wow.

 :P

That's actually brilliant. They had DogeParty also.  What else would get their attention? DogeOrgy? DogeBingeFest?

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Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
« Reply #74 on: December 01, 2014, 01:02:02 am »

Tony, there is no other choice. The PoW chain is dying or already dead. If you think a protocol change is "unethical" then you should be objecting to every one of the hard forks that BTS has had over the past few months because those are technically a "new coin" as well (not really). To state that the only "ethical" solution is to let PTS die is just bizarre. We're working hard to add value to the Bitshares ecosystem, and most of us are invested heavily in BTS as well. Nobody here feels "defrauded" by securing their funds and upgrading to a sustainable consensus protocol, which is all we are doing. If I can't convince you that we're adding value here then you are free not to invest.

You (as usual) are not answering what I said, but just saying random stuff.

To state that the only "ethical" solution is to let PTS die is just bizarre
No, I said if you are upgrading you should kill (as in burn) the previous coins. The rest is a mere sharedrop on PTS.
If you do not burn it, it is not your place to decide if it lives or dies..it is not up to you to decide.


Nobody here feels "defrauded" by securing their funds and upgrading to a sustainable consensus protocol, which is all we are doing. If I can't convince you that we're adding value here then you are free not to invest.
Ohh, well I am invested as we speak. You are sharedroping on me....and having some strong opinions on my coin as well... I do not mind the sharedrop, all I am saying is you have no right to say my coin 'will die' after you do your sharedrop.