Precise numbers on dilution?

[Empirical1.2]

Oh yeah, also:
4) Stan bullshitting with pump posts primising that secret and amazing things are coming but giving no details.

Not been fan of  his picture rich posts...ever. And by ever I mean long before you come around. I do not know if they move markets but sure as hell if they have any effect it is negative. They stopped being anything but a desperation attempt of reassurance that the future is bright. "The proof for that future?" you ask - Here are those cartoon pictures I found... pretty pathetic for everyone who has read more than a few of those. And yes for the last week's one I did say - "Sell the rumor..."

I have to agree. Few things makes me want to sell more than those pump/history rewrite posts.

I must be one of the few who usually enjoys a good pump post. Gives hope that something is in the pipeline to save us. At this price all you can really do is hope, lol.

...but it would be nice to know whether or not the "future is bright" posts were actually legit. We've seen time and again that nothing materializes from them.

Stan, is there any way to prove you're serious and that tangible things are soon to happen, without breaking NDA's etc?

Something is in the pipeline to save us - BitAssets 3.0

With negative interest rates increasing, large pension funds are looking to move into cash and even Switzerland of all places is looking to curtail that.
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-04-25/war-cash-migrates-switzerland
So there are very few places that are now safe for cash/Precious metals. The latter may be confiscated or heavily taxed at some stage and also very hard to leave the country with in an emergency.

The market for liquid, easy to use BitAssets is huge. While I stopped trying to use BitAssets 1.0 quite a while ago, I will certainly use BitAssets 3.0 if they're a bit more liquid and with the introduction of Moonstone etc. I'll finally be able to even consider recommending them to others as they'll be more easy to use. Once BitAsset adoption starts increasing month on month the rest is history, even if the BTS vehicle isn't as optimal as it could be.   

[btswildpig]

Oh yeah, also:
4) Stan bullshitting with pump posts primising that secret and amazing things are coming but giving no details.

Not been fan of  his picture rich posts...ever. And by ever I mean long before you come around. I do not know if they move markets but sure as hell if they have any effect it is negative. They stopped being anything but a desperation attempt of reassurance that the future is bright. "The proof for that future?" you ask - Here are those cartoon pictures I found... pretty pathetic for everyone who has read more than a few of those. And yes for the last week's one I did say - "Sell the rumor..."

I have to agree. Few things makes me want to sell more than those pump/history rewrite posts.

I must be one of the few who usually enjoys a good pump post. Gives hope that something is in the pipeline to save us. At this price all you can really do is hope, lol.

...but it would be nice to know whether or not the "future is bright" posts were actually legit. We've seen time and again that nothing materializes from them.

Stan, is there any way to prove you're serious and that tangible things are soon to happen, without breaking NDA's etc?

don't hold your breath on good news to save us ....
In a bear market , no amount of good news can reverse a down trend if the market is not "adjusted well at the bottom" . Every good news on a down trend will be ignore by the bear market , on the other hand , bad news will have a greater impact because of the trend .

I learned that the hard way when I tried to catch the last train on several really good news along the down trend .

[CLains]

Stan's posts are great. 

They are creative, intelligent and fun. No wonder BM is a genius.

[nomoreheroes7]

Oh yeah, also:
4) Stan bullshitting with pump posts primising that secret and amazing things are coming but giving no details.

Not been fan of  his picture rich posts...ever. And by ever I mean long before you come around. I do not know if they move markets but sure as hell if they have any effect it is negative. They stopped being anything but a desperation attempt of reassurance that the future is bright. "The proof for that future?" you ask - Here are those cartoon pictures I found... pretty pathetic for everyone who has read more than a few of those. And yes for the last week's one I did say - "Sell the rumor..."

I have to agree. Few things makes me want to sell more than those pump/history rewrite posts.

I must be one of the few who usually enjoys a good pump post. Gives hope that something is in the pipeline to save us. At this price all you can really do is hope, lol.

...but it would be nice to know whether or not the "future is bright" posts were actually legit. We've seen time and again that nothing materializes from them.

Stan, is there any way to prove you're serious and that tangible things are soon to happen, without breaking NDA's etc?

[Empirical1.2]

Oh yeah, also:
4) Stan bullshitting with pump posts primising that secret and amazing things are coming but giving no details.

Not been fan of  his picture rich posts...ever. And by ever I mean long before you come around. I do not know if they move markets but sure as hell if they have any effect it is negative. They stopped being anything but a desperation attempt of reassurance that the future is bright. "The proof for that future?" you ask - Here are those cartoon pictures I found... pretty pathetic for everyone who has read more than a few of those. And yes for the last week's one I did say - "Sell the rumor..."

I have to agree. Few things makes me want to sell more than those pump/history rewrite posts.

(Edit: Not that I do, as I'm more objective than that. But yeah pretty annoying and play a role in BTS's low credibility imo.) 

[zerosum]

Oh yeah, also:
4) Stan bullshitting with pump posts primising that secret and amazing things are coming but giving no details.

Not been fan of  his picture rich posts...ever. And by ever I mean long before you come around. I do not know if they move markets but sure as hell if they have any effect it is negative. They stopped being anything but a desperation attempt of reassurance that the future is bright. "The proof for that future?" you ask - Here are those cartoon pictures I found... pretty pathetic for everyone who has read more than a few of those. And yes for the last week's one I did say - "Sell the rumor..."

[Ander]

The result of the merger based dilution (not the delegate pay) combined with the total lack of progress on BTS as a result of the merger (or at all) for the last 6 mo. is the sole reason for the price decline from about 4500 satoshi to what we see now. In other words Bitshares of April 2015 is the same buggy client of October 2014 plus two months of market engine bugs...[end to the blind fan boys, spare me the list of all great things that are coming...almost here...almost...]

Agreed, in the list of causes of the price decline (in satoshi terms), it goes:
1) Promises have not been delivered on, everything has been constant delays.  Lack of stable client release with features that were promised months ago.
2) The market/order matching bug. 
3) Merger dilution.

(And maybe some from chinese whales being mad at Follow my Vote getting 30M BTS). 

Oh yeah, also:
4) Stan bullshitting with pump posts primising that secret and amazing things are coming but giving no details.  Notice that this week Stan came out with one of these pump posts for the first time in a while, and BTS dropped over 10% in satoshi terms as a result?

And let me be the only one in the last several months that have admitted  being for the merger at the time. But I was expecting results and accelerated development and got what - Nothing, the development was/is about frozen, Adam is as involved in BTS as much as he was before getting millions of bitshares to buy him...

Several of us admitted to being pro-merger at the time who now regret it.  Like you, I thought we were going to get more devs working on BTS, and things would go faster than they have.

100% Delegates need changes as in being separately paid actors (not block producers) and not removal. Running to change something fundamentally anytime the sailing is not as smooth as BM likes is a big mistake. And I personally think it is about time he learns that this brings the big trouble not the fact the current state is not perfect.

I dont know about this.  I think we should avoid changing things unless absolutely necessary.  Because: 1) Change requires development effort and thus delays everything, which is our main problem, everything is constantly taking way longer than expected, and 2) It leads to the perception that Bitshares just keeps changing.  People want stability. 

There are no major problems at all stemming from paid delegates being block producers.  This just is not a big deal.  It is NOT worth prioritizing with developer time above the critical issues that need work.

[zerosum]

Can somebody point me to what exactly is discussed here? Apparently it is not in this thread cause everybody is talking whatever is bothering him/her.

As for the exact number of dilution I have posted it elsewhere but I do not think anybody actually cares about that thing.

The result of the merger based dilution (not the delegate pay) combined with the total lack of progress on BTS as a result of the merger (or at all) for the last 6 mo. is the sole reason for the price decline from about 4500 satoshi to what we see now. In other words Bitshares of April 2015 is the same buggy client of October 2014 plus two months of market engine bugs...[end to the blind fan boys, spare me the list of all great things that are coming...almost here...almost...]

And let me be the only one in the last several months that have admitted  being for the merger at the time. But I was expecting results and accelerated development and got what - Nothing, the development was/is about frozen, Adam is as involved in BTS as much as he was before getting millions of bitshares to buy him...

100% Delegates need changes as in being separately paid actors (not block producers) and not removal. Running to change something fundamentally anytime the sailing is not as smooth as BM likes is a big mistake. And I personally think it is about time he learns that this brings the big trouble not the fact the current state is not perfect.

[gamey]

the perception that BTS can not be trusted to stick with things.

Stick with what? Developers randomly screwing with supply? The loss of confidence caused by that move is probably irreversible. This proposal doesn't change supply, just tries to dampen the damage.

Of course it changes supply moving forward.

No one has really established what portion of the fall in price is due to the dilution.  Granted no one really can, but at this point not one has even made a point of attempting an estimation.  This will be more of "changing the deal" and it'll be another stupid bandaid fix like PR.

[liondani]

So why vest them at all. Why not just release them all right now so it can be sold in one big dump and we can be done with it?

This probably will be less damaging than trying to impose changes on the vesting of the merger.

Lets assume I had 500k bts in my wallet and also I'm getting another 100k from the merger, If I wanted to sell the "free-extra-bonus" bts of the merger all I had to do would be to pick the right time and sell 100k bts from my current balance, there would be no need to wait for my vested balances on a daily on monthly basis. On top of that I could sell 100k-200k more because I anticipate others will do the same and the price will keep falling, so I can buy back cheaper later.

I doubt that there is any merger seller out there that actually waits to get his vested bts in the wallet before he sells them, probably most selling has already occurred, any changes now would be more damaging than helpfull. 

 

THIS ^^^

 

edit:
maybe it would do good (or not?) psychologically .... would it end negative speculation?

[Empirical1.2]

the perception that BTS can not be trusted to stick with things.

Stick with what? Developers randomly screwing with supply? The loss of confidence caused by that move is probably irreversible. This proposal doesn't change supply, just tries to dampen the damage.

This is mostly true. It's a tough situation with the merger. The irony is that AGS & PTS holders also probably have non vesting stake in BTS too which they'd like to see grow and so are mostly open to changes. (I'm a fairly decent sized AGS holder and I'm open to changes.) I also haven't seen a lot of AGS/PTS holders saying 'No don't alter my vesting balance!'

I'm also not a fan of delegate dilution for non core developers because apathetic shareholders aren't able to effectively manage 101 decentralised businesses nor have they added much value. Even rgcrypto has basically stated the only initiative remotely worthy pursuing via dilution in terms of bringing in new users and adding value  at this stage is minebitshares.  I much prefer the new referral programme that's being put in place, though I realise that view is unpopular with some.

[chryspano]

So why vest them at all. Why not just release them all right now so it can be sold in one big dump and we can be done with it?

This probably will be less damaging than trying to impose changes on the vesting of the merger.

Lets assume I had 500k bts in my wallet and also I'm getting another 100k from the merger, If I wanted to sell the "free-extra-bonus" bts of the merger all I had to do would be to pick the right time and sell 100k bts from my current balance, there would be no need to wait for my vested balances on a daily on monthly basis. On top of that I could sell 100k-200k more because I anticipate others will do the same and the price will keep falling, so I can buy back cheaper later.

I doubt that there is any merger seller out there that actually waits to get his vested bts in the wallet before he sells them, probably most selling has already occurred, any changes now would be more damaging than helpfull. 

   

[fuzzy]

the perception that BTS can not be trusted to stick with things.

Stick with what? Developers randomly screwing with supply? The loss of confidence caused by that move is probably irreversible. This proposal doesn't change supply, just tries to dampen the damage.

Just so everyone knows.  I am reiterating this:  Nothing has been changed and they are simply asking these questions to garner an idea what the community thinks about the idea knowing what we know now. 

I think this has actually been a kind of painful, but  necessary exercise. 

One thing I like about BitShares:  we have no concerns with debating ideas. 

[triox]

the perception that BTS can not be trusted to stick with things.

Stick with what? Developers randomly screwing with supply? The loss of confidence caused by that move is probably irreversible. This proposal doesn't change supply, just tries to dampen the damage.

[Helikopterben]

Freeze all vesting. Resume in 24 months conditional on market cap and at much slower pace.

This is rediculous.  Central banks freeze assets.  We do not.  I say release all shares and be done with it.  Maybe the price will suffer... or maybe not, but we could get that level of uncertainty out of the way.

So why vest them at all. Why not just release them all right now so it can be sold in one big dump and we can be done with it?

That is what I am advocating and we don't know for sure how it would affect price.