Author Topic: Precise numbers on dilution?  (Read 16347 times)

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Offline gamey

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There are 2 things here. 

The change in initial perception when the money supply started being screwed with.  We already bore the brunt of this.

The second thing is that actual downward pressure made by selling vesting shares from people still wishing to sell.

At best you only effect the downward pressure, but you're going to increase the perception that BTS can not be trusted to stick with things.

Anyway..this is pointless. I just hope this would never gain traction.
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Offline luckybit

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Ok fair enough I got 2 things somewhat mixed up.  You are not saying undue the merger, just make it so that people who contributed to AGS can no longer have liquid BTS.  You are suggesting only partially undoing the merger... or as you put it "conditionally" 
That is what me and the other guy are asking for. We want it to be conditionally distributed not undone.

Obviously those who can no longer sell their vested BTS are hurt.  I don't think I need to explain this.  It will be obvious to just about everyone on here. I can't even understand your logic about people who don't want the market cap going up should have their passive income paused.
Bytemaster himself says that the referral program should be tied to results. This makes it conditional.

So why isn't the merger also conditionally tied to the success of Bitshares?

The other side of this is the value of DNS taken away from people.  You can't undo that, but somehow you can take people's BTS so it is fair game? You can't even quantify any of this stuff.
Does DNS exist? What value? Show me an implementation of it. Show me when the last code update occurred? What is the status of DNS?
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Offline gamey

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It seems unlikely this would be a net positive.  DNS was killed.  It can't just be unmerged, so all your thinking is extremely one-sided.  Undoing the merger would mean bytemaster would have to somehow make something up to PTS/AGS. If he didn't, then people would be quite irritated.  Their AGS funds went into paying BTS developers and now their BTS is conditional? Huh?
No one said to undue the merger. We are talking about pausing it or making it conditional. If the Bitshares market cap never goes back up then screw the merger. Do you care about the merger if the market cap goes down indefinitely?

Ok fair enough I got 2 things somewhat mixed up.  You are not saying undue the merger, just make it so that people who contributed to AGS can no longer have liquid BTS.  You are suggesting only partially undoing the merger... or as you put it "conditionally" 

Your thoughts on incentives/distributions is so poorly conceived it isn't worth critiquing further.  As if AGS investors somehow owe more to BTS. Everytime things have been changed nothing has improved. More changes are not likely to help things outside improved bitassets.

I think the improvement I suggested would change things for the better and no one would be hurt. Everyone should want the market cap to go up but if some people don't then their passive income should be paused until the market cap reaches the threshold.

People who could care less about Bitshares but who get the passive income could simply immediately sell it. Just like Bitcoin miners. I'm not claiming that is happening but why leave it to chance? Why?

Obviously those who can no longer sell their vested BTS are hurt.  I don't think I need to explain this.  It will be obvious to just about everyone on here. I can't even understand your logic about people who don't want the market cap going up should have their passive income paused.
Lets also not allow selling of bts unless the price is greater than X or perhaps we can "freeze" 99% of everyone's bts until the price hits THE MOON or even better we can ask the ripple guys how to do it properly.

Your main concern is the short term price? I believe you already know that price is irrelevant at this point, let those that want to sell to do as they wish, cheap bts for the rest of us and for the rest of the world.

The only real issue I see here is the low delegates pay, nothing else.

If you sold Bitshares it's different because you purchased it, mined for it or earned it. The merger really has nothing to do with people who want to sell Bitshares. The merger was basically a giveaway.

And if it's a justified giveaway shouldn't it be measured for success? Couldn't we have the expectation that there should be some positive result achieved? If it's not about the market cap rising then what is it about?

The other side of this is the value of DNS taken away from people.  You can't undo that, but somehow you can take people's BTS so it is fair game? You can't even quantify any of this stuff.


I dont know that freezing vesting is really an option.  It looks like we are just changing things yet again in a way that screws some people. 

Who are those people that are owed vested funds, but don't already own a shitload of BTS and absolutely can't wait a bit until the market recovers? Do they prefer being paid worthless BTS right now or strong BTS in two years?

Tying the rate of vesting to market cap will ensure that inflation is introduced only when the market can handle it. It'll additionally act as a price stabilization mechanism.

EXACTLY!

I can understand a lot of people are able to get BTS right now because of the merger and they can't wait to sell it or cash out but like you said it's very important that the market cap rise.

No one is going to take Bitshares seriously in terms of speculators if the market cap goes down indefinitely. Human psychology doesn't work that way even if the owners of Bitshares can benefit from it going down indefinitely.

So lets make another hair-brained (hare?) change.  Then people will take us seriously. Even in terms of the shares added by dilution, the market price has fell far more. I can come up with educated guesses as to why, but no one can assign true weights to them. I assume that 1/4th of the 1/5th dilution total has been freed.  That is about 5% inflation....  Why do you even think this is a big factor?  People are just desperate and you are arguing for your side, just like when you tried so hard to get us to partner with blackshares.


[/b]


Becoming like the big banks and big governments? Unable to adapt because it might upset someone? So what is the alternative?

The people who are going to sell will sell on the way down. The people who are going to buy will buy in the way up. Haven't you been watching?

But you're a true believer who will not sell even if the market cap went to $1 million.

Unfortunately most people are going to sell before the vesting even completes if that happens so what is the value of it? In the market perception is very important and for a tech firm or for a lifeform adaptation is the key to survival.


Lol you've never even established that the vesting of the merger is that big of a factor. I'd be very surprised if you hold much unvested BTS vs BTS acquired elsewhere.

When people sell on the way down then someone is also buying what is being sold.  Again, just more nonsense.  Do you not understand these sorts of basics and you are giving advice !?!?!?

Yes market perception is important and changing the deal again would likely hurt even more than it helps.  It is just desperation. You make me want to go dig out my AGS wallet and sell the rest of my BTS right now.
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Offline luckybit

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It seems unlikely this would be a net positive.  DNS was killed.  It can't just be unmerged, so all your thinking is extremely one-sided.  Undoing the merger would mean bytemaster would have to somehow make something up to PTS/AGS. If he didn't, then people would be quite irritated.  Their AGS funds went into paying BTS developers and now their BTS is conditional? Huh?
No one said to undue the merger. We are talking about pausing it or making it conditional. If the Bitshares market cap never goes back up then screw the merger. Do you care about the merger if the market cap goes down indefinitely?

Ok fair enough I got 2 things somewhat mixed up.  You are not saying undue the merger, just make it so that people who contributed to AGS can no longer have liquid BTS.  You are suggesting only partially undoing the merger... or as you put it "conditionally" 

Your thoughts on incentives/distributions is so poorly conceived it isn't worth critiquing further.  As if AGS investors somehow owe more to BTS. Everytime things have been changed nothing has improved. More changes are not likely to help things outside improved bitassets.

I think the improvement I suggested would change things for the better and no one would be hurt. Everyone should want the market cap to go up but if some people don't then their passive income should be paused until the market cap reaches the threshold.

People who could care less about Bitshares but who get the passive income could simply immediately sell it. Just like Bitcoin miners. I'm not claiming that is happening but why leave it to chance? Why?

Obviously those who can no longer sell their vested BTS are hurt.  I don't think I need to explain this.  It will be obvious to just about everyone on here. I can't even understand your logic about people who don't want the market cap going up should have their passive income paused.
Lets also not allow selling of bts unless the price is greater than X or perhaps we can "freeze" 99% of everyone's bts until the price hits THE MOON or even better we can ask the ripple guys how to do it properly.

Your main concern is the short term price? I believe you already know that price is irrelevant at this point, let those that want to sell to do as they wish, cheap bts for the rest of us and for the rest of the world.

The only real issue I see here is the low delegates pay, nothing else.

If you sold Bitshares it's different because you purchased it, mined for it or earned it. The merger really has nothing to do with people who want to sell Bitshares. The merger was basically a giveaway.

And if it's a justified giveaway shouldn't it be measured for success? Couldn't we have the expectation that there should be some positive result achieved? If it's not about the market cap rising then what is it about?

The other side of this is the value of DNS taken away from people.  You can't undo that, but somehow you can take people's BTS so it is fair game? You can't even quantify any of this stuff.


I dont know that freezing vesting is really an option.  It looks like we are just changing things yet again in a way that screws some people. 

Who are those people that are owed vested funds, but don't already own a shitload of BTS and absolutely can't wait a bit until the market recovers? Do they prefer being paid worthless BTS right now or strong BTS in two years?

Tying the rate of vesting to market cap will ensure that inflation is introduced only when the market can handle it. It'll additionally act as a price stabilization mechanism.

EXACTLY!

I can understand a lot of people are able to get BTS right now because of the merger and they can't wait to sell it or cash out but like you said it's very important that the market cap rise.

No one is going to take Bitshares seriously in terms of speculators if the market cap goes down indefinitely. Human psychology doesn't work that way even if the owners of Bitshares can benefit from it going down indefinitely.

So lets make another hair-brained (hare?) change.  Then people will take us seriously. Even in terms of the shares added by dilution, the market price has fell far more. I can come up with educated guesses as to why, but no one can assign true weights to them. I assume that 1/4th of the 1/5th dilution total has been freed.  That is about 5% inflation....  Why do you even think this is a big factor?  People are just desperate and you are arguing for your side, just like when you tried so hard to get us to partner with blackshares.


[/b]


Becoming like the big banks and big governments? Unable to adapt because it might upset someone? So what is the alternative?

The people who are going to sell will sell on the way down. The people who are going to buy will buy in the way up. Haven't you been watching?

But you're a true believer who will not sell even if the market cap went to $1 million.

Unfortunately most people are going to sell before the vesting even completes if that happens so what is the value of it? In the market perception is very important and for a tech firm or for a lifeform adaptation is the key to survival.

As for the Blackshares idea if that would have happened it would have doubled the size of our community. It might have failed and I might be arguing for freezing it now but we'd have a community that is bigger and more users of Bitshares which was the point.

Did the community increase in size from the merger between Bitshares Vote and Bitshares DNS? No. We gained nothing because the same community basically merged with itself. I never supported the merger because I knew we'd have the exact same people in the community before and after the merger and that it's about the community.

The merger was pushed through because the developers threatened to revolt against Bitshares if it didn't. Blackshares had more support than the merger they pushed through and you can see for yourself most of the community supported it in the poll.

See the poll: https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=4230.0

Did most of us support the merger in a similar poll?
« Last Edit: April 27, 2015, 01:29:18 am by luckybit »
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Offline gamey

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Freeze all vesting. Resume in 24 months conditional on market cap and at much slower pace.

This is rediculous.  Central banks freeze assets.  We do not.  I say release all shares and be done with it.  Maybe the price will suffer... or maybe not, but we could get that level of uncertainty out of the way.

So why vest them at all. Why not just release them all right now so it can be sold in one big dump and we can be done with it?

This is actually more reasonable, although those who do not have vested balances would be hurt.  At least you are not further screwing PTS/AGS holders and it seems more equitable.
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Offline gamey

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It seems unlikely this would be a net positive.  DNS was killed.  It can't just be unmerged, so all your thinking is extremely one-sided.  Undoing the merger would mean bytemaster would have to somehow make something up to PTS/AGS. If he didn't, then people would be quite irritated.  Their AGS funds went into paying BTS developers and now their BTS is conditional? Huh?
No one said to undue the merger. We are talking about pausing it or making it conditional. If the Bitshares market cap never goes back up then screw the merger. Do you care about the merger if the market cap goes down indefinitely?

Ok fair enough I got 2 things somewhat mixed up.  You are not saying undue the merger, just make it so that people who contributed to AGS can no longer have liquid BTS.  You are suggesting only partially undoing the merger... or as you put it "conditionally" 

Your thoughts on incentives/distributions is so poorly conceived it isn't worth critiquing further.  As if AGS investors somehow owe more to BTS. Everytime things have been changed nothing has improved. More changes are not likely to help things outside improved bitassets.

I think the improvement I suggested would change things for the better and no one would be hurt. Everyone should want the market cap to go up but if some people don't then their passive income should be paused until the market cap reaches the threshold.

People who could care less about Bitshares but who get the passive income could simply immediately sell it. Just like Bitcoin miners. I'm not claiming that is happening but why leave it to chance? Why?

Obviously those who can no longer sell their vested BTS are hurt.  I don't think I need to explain this.  It will be obvious to just about everyone on here. I can't even understand your logic about people who don't want the market cap going up should have their passive income paused.
Lets also not allow selling of bts unless the price is greater than X or perhaps we can "freeze" 99% of everyone's bts until the price hits THE MOON or even better we can ask the ripple guys how to do it properly.

Your main concern is the short term price? I believe you already know that price is irrelevant at this point, let those that want to sell to do as they wish, cheap bts for the rest of us and for the rest of the world.

The only real issue I see here is the low delegates pay, nothing else.

If you sold Bitshares it's different because you purchased it, mined for it or earned it. The merger really has nothing to do with people who want to sell Bitshares. The merger was basically a giveaway.

And if it's a justified giveaway shouldn't it be measured for success? Couldn't we have the expectation that there should be some positive result achieved? If it's not about the market cap rising then what is it about?

The other side of this is the value of DNS taken away from people.  You can't undo that, but somehow you can take people's BTS so it is fair game? You can't even quantify any of this stuff.


I dont know that freezing vesting is really an option.  It looks like we are just changing things yet again in a way that screws some people. 

Who are those people that are owed vested funds, but don't already own a shitload of BTS and absolutely can't wait a bit until the market recovers? Do they prefer being paid worthless BTS right now or strong BTS in two years?

Tying the rate of vesting to market cap will ensure that inflation is introduced only when the market can handle it. It'll additionally act as a price stabilization mechanism.

EXACTLY!

I can understand a lot of people are able to get BTS right now because of the merger and they can't wait to sell it or cash out but like you said it's very important that the market cap rise.

No one is going to take Bitshares seriously in terms of speculators if the market cap goes down indefinitely. Human psychology doesn't work that way even if the owners of Bitshares can benefit from it going down indefinitely.

So lets make another hair-brained (hare?) change.  Then people will take us seriously. Even in terms of the shares added by dilution, the market price has fell far more. I can come up with educated guesses as to why, but no one can assign true weights to them. I assume that 1/4th of the 1/5th dilution total has been freed.  That is about 5% inflation....  Why do you even think this is a big factor?  People are just desperate and you are arguing for your side, just like when you tried so hard to get us to partner with blackshares.


[/b]
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Offline luckybit

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Freeze all vesting. Resume in 24 months conditional on market cap and at much slower pace.

This is rediculous.  Central banks freeze assets.  We do not.  I say release all shares and be done with it.  Maybe the price will suffer... or maybe not, but we could get that level of uncertainty out of the way.

So why vest them at all. Why not just release them all right now so it can be sold in one big dump and we can be done with it?

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Offline luckybit

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It seems unlikely this would be a net positive.  DNS was killed.  It can't just be unmerged, so all your thinking is extremely one-sided.  Undoing the merger would mean bytemaster would have to somehow make something up to PTS/AGS. If he didn't, then people would be quite irritated.  Their AGS funds went into paying BTS developers and now their BTS is conditional? Huh?
No one said to undue the merger. We are talking about pausing it or making it conditional. If the Bitshares market cap never goes back up then screw the merger. Do you care about the merger if the market cap goes down indefinitely?


Your thoughts on incentives/distributions is so poorly conceived it isn't worth critiquing further.  As if AGS investors somehow owe more to BTS. Everytime things have been changed nothing has improved. More changes are not likely to help things outside improved bitassets.

I think the improvement I suggested would change things for the better and no one would be hurt. Everyone should want the market cap to go up but if some people don't then their passive income should be paused until the market cap reaches the threshold.

People who could care less about Bitshares but who get the passive income could simply immediately sell it. Just like Bitcoin miners. I'm not claiming that is happening but why leave it to chance? Why?
Lets also not allow selling of bts unless the price is greater than X or perhaps we can "freeze" 99% of everyone's bts until the price hits THE MOON or even better we can ask the ripple guys how to do it properly.

Your main concern is the short term price? I believe you already know that price is irrelevant at this point, let those that want to sell to do as they wish, cheap bts for the rest of us and for the rest of the world.

The only real issue I see here is the low delegates pay, nothing else.

If you sold Bitshares it's different because you purchased it, mined for it or earned it. The merger really has nothing to do with people who want to sell Bitshares. The merger was basically a giveaway.

And if it's a justified giveaway shouldn't it be measured for success? Couldn't we have the expectation that there should be some positive result achieved? If it's not about the market cap rising then what is it about?

I dont know that freezing vesting is really an option.  It looks like we are just changing things yet again in a way that screws some people. 

Who are those people that are owed vested funds, but don't already own a shitload of BTS and absolutely can't wait a bit until the market recovers? Do they prefer being paid worthless BTS right now or strong BTS in two years?

Tying the rate of vesting to market cap will ensure that inflation is introduced only when the market can handle it. It'll additionally act as a price stabilization mechanism.

EXACTLY!

I can understand a lot of people are able to get BTS right now because of the merger and they can't wait to sell it or cash out but like you said it's very important that the market cap rise.

No one is going to take Bitshares seriously in terms of speculators if the market cap goes down indefinitely. Human psychology doesn't work that way even if the owners of Bitshares can benefit from it going down indefinitely.

« Last Edit: April 27, 2015, 01:03:31 am by luckybit »
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chryspano

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Lets also not allow selling of bts unless the price is greater than X or perhaps we can "freeze" 99% of everyone's bts until the price hits THE MOON or even better we can ask the ripple guys how to do it properly.

Your main concern is the short term price? I believe you already know that price is irrelevant at this point, let those that want to sell to do as they wish, cheap bts for the rest of us and for the rest of the world.

The only real issue I see here is the low delegates pay, nothing else.



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I dont know that freezing vesting is really an option.  It looks like we are just changing things yet again in a way that screws some people. 

Who are those people that are owed vested funds, but don't already own a shitload of BTS and absolutely can't wait a bit until the market recovers? Do they prefer being paid worthless BTS right now or strong BTS in two years?

Tying the rate of vesting to market cap will ensure that inflation is introduced only when the market can handle it. It'll additionally act as a price stabilization mechanism.



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I dont know that freezing vesting is really an option.  It looks like we are just changing things yet again in a way that screws some people. 

Who are those people that are owed vested funds, but don't already own a shitload of BTS and absolutely can't wait a bit until the market recovers? Do they prefer being paid worthless BTS right now or strong BTS in two years?

Tying the rate of vesting to market cap will ensure that inflation is introduced only when the market can handle it. It'll additionally act as a price stabilization mechanism.


Offline Helikopterben

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Freeze all vesting. Resume in 24 months conditional on market cap and at much slower pace.

This is rediculous.  Central banks freeze assets.  We do not.  I say release all shares and be done with it.  Maybe the price will suffer... or maybe not, but we could get that level of uncertainty out of the way.

Offline Ander

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I dont know that freezing vesting is really an option.  It looks like we are just changing things yet again in a way that screws some people.  (Anyone who bought PTS/DNS to get 'extra' BTS over time would potentially get screwed for example).  It may be a case where the original action was a bad idea, but once you started, backtracking would be worse. 

But I dont really know anymore.  It seems to me there were two major periods where BTS declined in BTC terms.  Period one was following the merger/dilutiion.  Period 2 was recently when the market bugs happened and people couldnt cover or match orders.  It seems to me that fixing the market order matching is the key to getting back to the 4000 satoshi level.  Hopefully that will be accomplished by bitassets 3.0 or whatever modifications to that plan are made, and that it will be a superior system.

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Offline gamey

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Freeze all vesting. Resume in 24 months conditional on market cap and at much slower pace.

BRILLIANT!  +5% +5% +5% +5% +5% +5%

I vote we freeze vesting until it surpasses the minimum market cap. This could even be done with a price feed of the market cap so that it's taken out of developers hands and left up to the market itself.

Call it conditional merger and use the price feed as the oracle. This way the rate of distribution of shares is not predetermined but determined by actual market conditions. The process should freeze whenever the market cap falls below the threshold.

So what was the market cap when the merger first happened? It was a bit higher? So freeze until it gets back to that point and start it again. This way you're not using any arbitrary magic numbers like 24 months but instead a data feed which is a variable number that everyone who is part of the merger would have the incentive to see rise.

The market cap is the one number we all want to see rise.

When I read that I thought the guy must be joking to even propose to change the vesting rule like that...But thinking in it again maybe stop the vesting NOW until we reach again at least $60 mil market cap and stop it again if we fall below $30 mil market cap doesn't look a very bad idea and maybe should be further discussed?

And to add to that maybe we can buy out Music for another $200 - $300 mil BTS (which appears to be a fair market value of Music) with some vesting rules that allow to claim the new created BTS only if the market cap is above $60 mil and stops if it falls below $30 mil?

I can no longer see the line between sincere suggestions and parodies.

The gist of the idea is that all mergers should be conditional mergers going into the future. The idea is anyone we merge with should have the incentive to raise our market cap and keep it raised during the vesting period. If our market cap suffers then they shouldn't get their distributions at the expense of our market cap but if our market cap doesn't suffer then the merger should unfreeze.

This is possible because Bitshares is digital and doesn't have to go by the rules of analog corporations. It can merge in any way it wants with other communities and there is no reason why it had to be done the way it was done.

The incentives of the merger obviously are wrong if people are getting distribution while the market cap is dropping. As a result they'll want to support the merger even if the market cap is dropping because they are getting Bitshares the whole time. If the market cap passes the threshold we can speed up the release.

The point is I don't see why we had to release it on a timeline. We could release it conditionally and have the rate of release adjust to the fluctuations of the market cap.

So it's not a parody, it's a possible solution. Of course if you think it's not possible you can say why not.
It seems unlikely this would be a net positive.  DNS was killed.  It can't just be unmerged, so all your thinking is extremely one-sided.  Undoing the merger would mean bytemaster would have to somehow make something up to PTS/AGS. If he didn't, then people would be quite irritated.  Their AGS funds went into paying BTS developers and now their BTS is conditional? Huh?

Your thoughts on incentives/distributions is so poorly conceived it isn't worth critiquing further.  As if AGS investors somehow owe more to BTS. Everytime things have been changed nothing has improved. More changes are not likely to help things outside improved bitassets.
I speak for myself and only myself.

Offline luckybit

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Freeze all vesting. Resume in 24 months conditional on market cap and at much slower pace.

BRILLIANT!  +5% +5% +5% +5% +5% +5%

I vote we freeze vesting until it surpasses the minimum market cap. This could even be done with a price feed of the market cap so that it's taken out of developers hands and left up to the market itself.

Call it conditional merger and use the price feed as the oracle. This way the rate of distribution of shares is not predetermined but determined by actual market conditions. The process should freeze whenever the market cap falls below the threshold.

So what was the market cap when the merger first happened? It was a bit higher? So freeze until it gets back to that point and start it again. This way you're not using any arbitrary magic numbers like 24 months but instead a data feed which is a variable number that everyone who is part of the merger would have the incentive to see rise.

The market cap is the one number we all want to see rise.

When I read that I thought the guy must be joking to even propose to change the vesting rule like that...But thinking in it again maybe stop the vesting NOW until we reach again at least $60 mil market cap and stop it again if we fall below $30 mil market cap doesn't look a very bad idea and maybe should be further discussed?

And to add to that maybe we can buy out Music for another $200 - $300 mil BTS (which appears to be a fair market value of Music) with some vesting rules that allow to claim the new created BTS only if the market cap is above $60 mil and stops if it falls below $30 mil?

I can no longer see the line between sincere suggestions and parodies.

The gist of the idea is that all mergers should be conditional mergers going into the future. The idea is anyone we merge with should have the incentive to raise our market cap and keep it raised during the vesting period. If our market cap suffers then they shouldn't get their distributions at the expense of our market cap but if our market cap doesn't suffer then the merger should unfreeze.

This is possible because Bitshares is digital and doesn't have to go by the rules of analog corporations. It can merge in any way it wants with other communities and there is no reason why it had to be done the way it was done.

The incentives of the merger obviously are wrong if people are getting distribution while the market cap is dropping. As a result they'll want to support the merger even if the market cap is dropping because they are getting Bitshares the whole time. If the market cap passes the threshold we can speed up the release.

The point is I don't see why we had to release it on a timeline. We could release it conditionally and have the rate of release adjust to the fluctuations of the market cap.

So it's not a parody, it's a possible solution. Of course if you think it's not possible you can say why not.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2015, 06:06:33 pm by luckybit »
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