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Offline underwun

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Re: Identabit Hangout w/ John Underwood
« Reply #30 on: September 06, 2015, 01:07:19 AM »
My apologies, I was tired and dismissive, below I explain why I felt the comments below lacked substance, and appeared to be driven more from a perspective of ideology

It's a good interview.  I don't  think Identabit will scale well because the big doors will be locked, also on the technology side they will have nothing that can't be replicated and they don't have the super massive funding that's required to compete with the likes of Blythe Masters and such ('It's on the blockhain' - Bloomberg Magazines Cover story 2 days ago http://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2015-09-01/blythe-masters-tells-banks-the-blockchain-changes-everything )

This reminds me of a debate that argued against building a messaging platform because Facebook had 500 devs (a while back) and that it was foolish to think it was possible to compete with their dev power. 3 years later they bought WhatsApp for $16B and a dev team of 50.

Re funding and institutions, this is an area we are familiar with and we couldn't agree more that Identabit needs strategy, purpose and our relationships, in order to succeed.


In his intro John  identifies how a key difference between crypto and current payment options is convenience and simplicity however I would argue the simplicity, convenience & payment integration of crypto is only starting to take shape. With 1 second vs. 30 minute confirmation times. Crypto-funded debit cards, payment apps & stable BitAssets only starting to be introduced. I think it is too early to make his judgement.

We believe the absence of widespread consumer adoption is for the following reasons:
  • We believe for users to transition to a new paradigm it must be easier not harder for users to engage and use, there must be a usage value proposition. Consequently the inherent the requirement of anonymity, being to carefully add users one by one, makes it harder not easier to engage and use.
  • Users cannot acquire the target currency through normal means.
  • The threat of theft and the stigma of crime is threatening
In summary Bitcoin is too hard to buy, too hard to use and unsettles consumers.

Also he makes some statements about Bitcoin use and demographics that I don't think are backed up by the facts.
The vast majority of Bitcoiners were young tech savvy Libertarian males not a small group of elites only using it for extremely illicit activity & as Bitcoin becomes more user friendly this demographic is naturally becoming less tech savvy and from a broader political spectrum attracted by the various now more accessible benefits Bitcoin provides.
 
Some facts:
80% of Bitcoin is trade is in China.
The Chinese are attracted to Bitcoin because it enables circumvention of capital controls, hence why the massive mining rigs, the Chinese need homemade Bitcoin that they can buy for Yuan.

Of the remaining 20%, Bitpay have reported that darkweb volumes outstrip regular merchant traffic. So we are left with a small percentage of Bitcoin trade being used by the examples listed below.

The facts above, if acknowledged, reflect that the majority of users are people circumventing various laws, and I am unaware of any facts that substantiate material adoption by regular consumers.

If we add the Chinese attracted to expatriation of funds, those trading on the dark and the web tech savvy Libertarian males we are left with the question where are the consumers?

In fact if we look at articles speaking of a shrinking market we can deduce that Bitcoin's exciting days of being accepted as a global currencies are, in the opinion of many, over.


Bitcoin Exchange Harborly Shuts Down Due To Shrinking Market Opportunity

37Coins.com Shuts Down Bitcoin Operations

Gyft Co-Founder: Credit Card Spending Now Outpacing Bitcoin

Bitcoin bust?

The examples below of Bitcoin being used are I believe reflective of spin and convenient reasoning and belong to a group of articles designed to keep the Bitcoin hope alive e.g.:

Barclays just became the first UK bank to support bitcoin

When in fact the truth is:

Leading UK Bank Barclay's has denied it will accept Bitcoin later this year

No matter the confidence displayed below the facts above are telling the story.


25 Sept 2014 - http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2014-09-25/bitcoin-economy-widens-as-parents-pay-digital-allowance

Quote
People worldwide have opened 41 million bitcoin accounts, according to the Bank of England. Global spending on goods and services has doubled in the past year.

Parents are dispensing allowances in bitcoins so their kids learn to be digital citizens.Consumers in emerging markets such as Brazil and Russia are starting to use bitcoin to hedge against currency volatility.

Three factors are attracting consumers to bitcoin. The currency is less volatile. New apps and digital wallets make using it easier. And mainstream companies -- more than 75,000, according to payment services Coinbase and BitPay -- accept the virtual currency

Accepting maybe but receiving is another story, Bitcoin Payments Decline Significantly At Expedia

Even if you were to focus exclusively on crypto's black market use. The black market accounts for over 23% of global GDP and in countries such as Greece  it's pushing 25-30%. 

Quote
Bitcoin ATMs could spring up across Greece as soon as October as citizens and businesses become increasingly desperate to move their money despite capital controls.

http://www.cnbc.com/2015/08/19/greece-could-soon-get-1000-bitcoin-atms.html

I think the above confidence in Greece using Bitcoin is so heavily qualified by Thanos Marinos, the founder of BTCGreece, i.e. Thanos Marinos, the founder of BTCGreece, told CNBC on Wednesday that a soft launch was on the cards for October. "It is part of my vision to create a block chain ecosystem in Greece," he told CNBC. "If all goes as expected with no major issues we will launch first ATMs October 2015." that we shouldn't put much stock in it becoming a reality.

That is a massive portion of the economy and population already operating outside the reach of traditional institutions. The reason crypto-currencies not owned by the big banks have the potential to be massively profitable & scalable is precisely because the traditional institutions are largely excluded from directly participating in it.

I think the above means that, because banks don't trade in Bitcoin it makes for a more efficient payment environment, I am the first to agree that the banks are inefficient and that it is our job to disrupt but for the life of me I cannot see how this can be done from the outside, the only way to disrupt is from the inside.

If we pull together we can make a difference and change the financial landscape for the better but if we spend our time arguing principles, we will watch from the sidelines as the very institutions we sought to disrupt turn savings into profits.


I also think it's possible to integrate social media accounts onto crypto blockchains for the less privacy concerned users and so still gain certain network effect benefits.

I think Bitcoin has struggled in price because of the high costs which he identified but also the volatility which means the massive increase in use of Bitcoin by consumers for traditional goods and services creates a net downward pressure on price because businesses operating on extremely tight margins have to exchange BTC revenue immediately for fiat. However despite it's volatility, Bitcoin is very popular fro currency hedging vs. rapidly depreciating currencies in South America as indicated in the article above . Also in places like Greece as a safe haven currency outside their failing banking system. 

I point to the articles and the data mentioned above, it was this statement the massive increase in use of Bitcoin by consumers for traditional goods and services that caused me to stop writing this detailed response yesterday. This is simply not true and I believe reflects hope not fact.

However stable Smartcoins are much better suited to this and BitUSD is in many instances far more useful than fiat USD. So we haven't even scratched the surface of what's possible in these markets.

I have great regard for what makes Smartcoins smart, it is without question an example of why we are here and why we believe in the work done on Bitshares but I do not believe this feature and others are relevant until such time we have demand and volume for the core asset, hence why we are focused on mainstream adoption and why Market Pegged Assets and other advanced features are not part of our initial objectives.

Also this is a global trend. Governments in many countries will be instigating strict capital controls to protect their currencies and their financial system.
(China just increased capital controls yesterday.) As a result I suspect, even with the Identity element most financial institutions would be not be allowed to interact with Identabit anyway. Or the Identabit gateways would have to enforce these restrictions too in which case Identabit would lose it's USP to the majority of the future mainstream market imo. (An inflation hedge and currency outside the over-leveraged banking system.)

The above gets to the point of Identabit and where the division is between the writer and our objectives. We believe that these restrictions will be enforced and we must comply and that our USP is our respect for this reality.

Don't get us wrong, we want to disrupt but we intend to do it from within, we are not fighting for an ideal but for a realizable objective.

As a side comment, if China's capital controls are imposed and prevent Bitcoin being used for its primary purpose then Bitcoin problems have to get much worse.


So while I see a market for Identabit especially in remittances if they already have a partnership with a bank and can thus remove  a layer of transaction complexity. I think centralised blockchains started by big players will dominate. (Centralised blockchains will likely dominate his target market because it seems unlikely that people who didn't value the benefits of optional anonymity & financial freedom would then highly value the benefits/USP's of decentral vs. centralisation.) So I think that the really big future still lies with the traditional, anonymity optional crypto, but with much lower costs than Bitcoin and stable BitAssets.

Out of all the statements and inferred questions above I consider this to be the most pertinent and if true then I would go further and say this means there is no place for an independent neutral currency, not Bitcoin, not Identabit not anything and we should all pack up and go and work for the institutions.

It was confronting this potential reality that gave birth to Idenabit, because the at heart of both the objective and the argument are neutrality, ROI on existing infrastructure and adoption. three elements that when combined make the case for an independent decentralised identity ensured network.

Neutrality is logical because domain specific currencies work for the self interests of the issuer, as a consequence they will see resistance to acceptance across borders, 'if You own it, They won't use it' where as a neutral medium of exchange has the potential to cross borders and be used by everyone.

ROI on existing infrastructure, we are already seeing Bitcoin businesses exiting due to a shrinking market, they need a currency that they can profit from and it's these businesses, amongst others, that Identabit is designed to serve.

Adoption is core to execution, if we look at Bitcoin and the altcoin market they all have one thing in common, none have a use case designed to drive adoption, this is core to our medium term objectives and will shared in the months ahead.


Edit: On a side note the use of USD at black market rates in countries like Argentina, shows how an entire population, economy and businesses can get behind using a currency outside of institutions and regulatory compliance

There is no question that anonymity has it's place but in reality it will most likely be driven underground, Identabit is not competing for blackmarket constituents.


In summary we believe we need a currency that works with the system in order to change it.
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Offline underwun

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Re: Identabit Hangout w/ John Underwood
« Reply #31 on: September 06, 2015, 01:22:50 AM »
It's a good interview.  I don't  think Identabit will scale well because the big doors will be locked, also on the technology side they will have nothing that can't be replicated and they don't have the super massive funding that's required to compete with the likes of Blythe Masters and such ('It's on the blockhain' - Bloomberg Magazines Cover story 2 days ago http://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2015-09-01/blythe-masters-tells-banks-the-blockchain-changes-everything )

In his intro John  identifies how a key difference between crypto and current payment options is convenience and simplicity however I would argue the simplicity, convenience & payment integration of crypto is only starting to take shape. With 1 second vs. 30 minute confirmation times. Crypto-funded debit cards, payment apps & stable BitAssets only starting to be introduced. I think it is too early to make his judgement.

Also he makes some statements about Bitcoin use and demographics that I don't think are backed up by the facts.
The vast majority of Bitcoiners were young tech savvy Libertarian males not a small group of elites only using it for extremely illicit activity & as Bitcoin becomes more user friendly this demographic is naturally becoming less tech savvy and from a broader political spectrum attracted by the various now more accessible benefits Bitcoin provides.

25 Sept 2014 - http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2014-09-25/bitcoin-economy-widens-as-parents-pay-digital-allowance

Quote
People worldwide have opened 41 million bitcoin accounts, according to the Bank of England. Global spending on goods and services has doubled in the past year.

Parents are dispensing allowances in bitcoins so their kids learn to be digital citizens.Consumers in emerging markets such as Brazil and Russia are starting to use bitcoin to hedge against currency volatility.

Three factors are attracting consumers to bitcoin. The currency is less volatile. New apps and digital wallets make using it easier. And mainstream companies -- more than 75,000, according to payment services Coinbase and BitPay -- accept the virtual currency

Even if you were to focus exclusively on crypto's black market use. The black market accounts for over 23% of global GDP and in countries such as Greece  it's pushing 25-30%. 

Quote
Bitcoin ATMs could spring up across Greece as soon as October as citizens and businesses become increasingly desperate to move their money despite capital controls.

http://www.cnbc.com/2015/08/19/greece-could-soon-get-1000-bitcoin-atms.html

That is a massive portion of the economy and population already operating outside the reach of traditional institutions. The reason crypto-currencies not owned by the big banks have the potential to be massively profitable & scalable is precisely because the traditional institutions are largely excluded from directly participating in it.

I also think it's possible to integrate social media accounts onto crypto blockchains for the less privacy concerned users and so still gain certain network effect benefits.. 

I think Bitcoin has struggled in price because of the high costs which he identified but also the volatility which means the massive increase in use of Bitcoin by consumers for traditional goods and services creates a net downward pressure on price because businesses operating on extremely tight margins have to exchange BTC revenue immediately for fiat. However despite it's volatility, Bitcoin is very popular fro currency hedging vs. rapidly depreciating currencies in South America as indicated in the article above . Also in places like Greece as a safe haven currency outside their failing banking system. 

However stable Smartcoins are much better suited to this and BitUSD is in many instances far more useful than fiat USD. So we haven't even scratched the surface of what's possible in these markets.

Also this is a global trend. Governments in many countries will be instigating strict capital controls to protect their currencies and their financial system.
(China just increased capital controls yesterday.) As a result I suspect, even with the Identity element most financial institutions would be not be allowed to interact with Identabit anyway. Or the Identabit gateways would have to enforce these restrictions too in which case Identabit would lose it's USP to the majority of the future mainstream market imo. (An inflation hedge and currency outside the over-leveraged banking system.)

So while I see a market for Identabit especially in remittances if they already have a partnership with a bank and can thus remove  a layer of transaction complexity. I think centralised blockchains started by big players will dominate. (Centralised blockchains will likely dominate his target market because it seems unlikely that people who didn't value the benefits of optional anonymity & financial freedom would then highly value the benefits/USP's of decentral vs. centralisation.) So I think that the really big future still lies with the traditional, anonymity optional crypto, but with much lower costs than Bitcoin and stable BitAssets.

Edit: On a side note the use of USD at black market rates in countries like Argentina, shows how an entire population, economy and businesses can get behind using a currency outside of institutions and regulatory compliance

I started with a detailed response but quickly realised this was an argument driven by emotion and hope. We wish you well.

John, I honestly hate the disregarding tone of your response. You could have just not answered if indeed that's your true thoughts. but you decided to go passive aggressive on one of the more thoughtful people around here (if you are not aware of that FACT take the time to read say last 50 posts of Empirical for self educating purposes,  I promise you it will be time well spent even with your busy schedule).

And while I do not have any strong thoughts one way or the other on the correctness of Empirical's analyses, I fail to see any strong emotions shown and have no clue what 'hope' are you talking about?

I agree, thank you...I have devoted the time to the deserving detailed reply.
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Offline tonyk

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Re: Identabit Hangout w/ John Underwood
« Reply #32 on: September 06, 2015, 02:55:59 AM »
...

I agree, thank you...I have devoted the time to the deserving detailed reply.


No thank you.
It was the right thing to do and it takes a man to face his mistakes. And God knows there is not yet a man that have not made quite a few of those.
You have a big +5% in my book.
Lack of arbitrage is the problem, isn't it. And this 'should' solves it.

Offline Empirical1.2

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Re: Identabit Hangout w/ John Underwood
« Reply #33 on: September 06, 2015, 02:44:13 PM »
My apologies, I was tired and dismissive, below I explain why I felt the comments below lacked substance, and appeared to be driven more from a perspective of ideology

No problem. I know it can be frustrating when you know your business inside out as well as the opportunities in the sector and then a casual crypto-currency investor with limited knowledge tries to critique it. So I certainly appreciate the time to give a detailed response.


it was this statement the massive increase in use of Bitcoin by consumers for traditional goods and services that caused me to stop writing this detailed response yesterday. This is simply not true and I believe reflects hope not fact.

This seemed to be the biggest point of contention & I will certainly go over the information you have provided.

In terms of consumer adoption and spending on goods and services, I would argue the best source would be BitPay. (Over 60 000 of the circa 100 000 Bitcoin accepting merchants process their transactions via Bitpay.)

Their Q2 numbers show fairly strong growth specifically in Latin America and Europe which I highlighted.
They also provide a breakdown of their transactions by industry in the report. 

https://blog.bitpay.com/bitcoin-a-new-global-economy/





However despite a Q2 increase in Bitcoin accepting businesses, the state of Bitcoin report does back up your position.

Quote
The fundamental challenge for bitcoin as a medium of exchange (for non-illicit transactions) continues to be the lack of compelling reasons for mainstream consumers to use bitcoin. In the short run, we anticipate that many bitcoin businesses that were initially focused on payment processing will either pivot, merge or shutter.




Some facts:
80% of Bitcoin is trade is in China.
The Chinese are attracted to Bitcoin because it enables circumvention of capital controls, hence why the massive mining rigs, the Chinese need homemade Bitcoin that they can buy for Yuan.

Of the remaining 20%, Bitpay have reported that darkweb volumes outstrip regular merchant traffic. So we are left with a small percentage of Bitcoin trade being used by the examples listed below.


I'm not sure why they need homemade Bitcoin. If Chinese based exchanges were paying a premium then globally produced Bitcoin would find its way there. I imagine the reason Bitcoin mining rigs are huge in China is because in terms of production costs, hardware and labour, China is probably as with most things one of the cheapest places to produce it. However I'm not sure. 

As your article states this "is a likely contributor to its high bitcoin transaction volume" and not necessarilly indicative of 80% of Bitcoin demand being based there. Also if you look at http://coinmarketcap.com/currencies/bitcoin/#markets there are zero fees based Bitcoin exchanges based in China supposedly doing $70 million in daily BTC volume that CMC correctly doesn't use. I'm unclear whether your report used the Bitcoin volume from the no fee based exchanges, as if they did then it would be very misleading.

Edit: The 40% BTC price increase in response to the various stages of the Greek banking crisis, driven in part by a large influx of deposits onto European based exchange, BTC-E at the time, also suggest crypto's future is not as China dependent as that stat makes out. http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-07-12/early-market-indications-bitcoin-soars-2015-highs-stocks-tumble
It would have been interesting to see where BTC could have gone had a Greek bailout deal not been agreed


There's no denying China is a major market and as you say capital controls are a big driver & will be positive for non neutral digital currency wherever they are present.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-09-02/china-scrambles-enforce-capital-controls-capital-flight-threatens-economy-which-grea

Quote
Yes, bitcoin may be slowly but surely leaving the domain of the libertarian fringe, but in exchange it is about to be embraced as the most lucrative and commercial "blockchained" way to capitalize on what may soon become the largest capital outflow in history, with "pioneers" such as Blythe front and center to capitalize on each and every outflowing Bityuan.

Certainly though I was incorrect at the least to say there is massive increase in consumer demand, when it is modest at best, excluding Latin America and possibly Europe. I still think considering the massive price decline and volatility, this is still very promising for BTS and Smartcoins.

I will look at the rest of the information later. Again thanks for taking the time to respond to my earlier stuff and I understand if you don't always have the time to do so.


« Last Edit: September 06, 2015, 08:35:44 PM by Empirical1.2 »
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Offline santaclause102

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Re: Identabit Hangout w/ John Underwood
« Reply #34 on: September 06, 2015, 03:55:34 PM »
 +5%
No matter what the outcome of this debate is, it's great to see such a fact and argument based discussion from both of you, as opposed to the unproductive personal attacks we sometimes see here.

Offline Samupaha

Re: Identabit Hangout w/ John Underwood
« Reply #35 on: September 06, 2015, 04:27:30 PM »
In terms of consumer adoption and spending on goods and services, I would argue the best source would be BitPay. (Over 60 000 of the circa 100 000 Bitcoin accepting merchants process their transactions via Bitpay.)

Their Q2 numbers show fairly strong growth specifically in Latin America and Europe which I highlighted.
They also provide a breakdown of their transactions by industry in the report. 

https://blog.bitpay.com/bitcoin-a-new-global-economy/

Tim Swanson has analyzed that: Cryptocurrency KYSF: Know Your Source of Funds part 2

Quote
The most striking data point from the Coinbase and BitPay posts was what was missing: actual real user numbers.  Neither one of them is willing to publicly say how many monthly active users (MAU) they have which stands in contrast to other fintech companies, financial institutions and “social media” startups they like to compare themselves to.

...

Similarly, BitPay numbers are actually pretty sobering.  We know demographically from both the CoinDesk report and the leaked Coinbase pitch deck that the over 80% of all bitcoin holders/owners are males between the ages of 18-45.  And that the majority of the overall users reside in North America.  Yet according to the BitPay charts, North American volume has been relatively flat the last 6 quarters.

So if the largest group of bitcoin owners are not using their holdings despite a marked increase in available merchants, that is probably not an indication that they are interested in spending their funds and probably see bitcoins as an investable asset than actual money.  BitPay also does not disclose aggregate USD or euro volume.  Startups like to make noise when they are doing good or can show growth; if the value of their volume was actually growing, they probably would say.

And while transaction count in Europe and Latin America appear to be growing, perhaps the collective value has stayed the same (the Latin America numbers are also a bit misleading; it’s easy to show large growth percentages when you start from 0).

Another point about BitPay’s post is that they don’t really say what “IT services” is.  Notably absent from this post, compared with their post in April, is what “mining” related activity is.  Recall that some miners, such as KnC and now defunct BFL were (are) using BitPay as their payment processor.  In fact, in BitPay’s post earlier this year, “Bitcoin Mining” — by volume — represented the largest share of volume processed.  Does “IT services” now include this previously large segment?

Offline Empirical1.2

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Re: Identabit Hangout w/ John Underwood
« Reply #36 on: September 06, 2015, 08:20:13 PM »
The most striking data point from the Coinbase and BitPay posts was what was missing: actual real user numbers.  Neither one of them is willing to publicly say how many monthly active users (MAU) they have which stands in contrast to other fintech companies, financial institutions and “social media” startups they like to compare themselves to.

I agree that it is conspicuous by its absence. I wonder if that's because it's difficult to discern MAU with Bitcoin transactions?

Quote
Similarly, BitPay numbers are actually pretty sobering.  We know demographically from both the CoinDesk report and the leaked Coinbase pitch deck that the over 80% of all bitcoin holders/owners are males between the ages of 18-45.  And that the majority of the overall users reside in North America.  Yet according to the BitPay charts, North American volume has been relatively flat the last 6 quarters.

So if the largest group of bitcoin owners are not using their holdings despite a marked increase in available merchants, that is probably not an indication that they are interested in spending their funds and probably see bitcoins as an investable asset than actual money

I think that's true too, many long term holders would view their crypto-currency more as an investable asset as opposed to day to day money.  However this would be an issue for any crypto-currency until Smartcoins gain wider adoption.

Quote
And while transaction count in Europe and Latin America appear to be growing, perhaps the collective value has stayed the same (the Latin America numbers are also a bit misleading; it’s easy to show large growth percentages when you start from 0).

The growth while starting from zero is still interesting. We have a poster here Elmato,  who I think is based at the Argentinian Bitcoin hub. It would be interesting to get his opinion on Bitcoin's growth there recently and BTS's prospects going forward. He's a put a lot of effort into creating LimeWallet so he obviously sees potential here. https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php/topic,17900.0.html

Many emerging market economies are experiencing high inflation so it makes sense BTC would be experiencing growth there. I think the trend is exciting and genuine. Again there will be capital controls already or coming in most of these countries which means it will be non neutral crypto-currencies that benefit and I imagine a USD SmartCoin will be the big winner.

« Last Edit: September 06, 2015, 10:23:56 PM by Empirical1.2 »
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Offline BunkerChain Labs

Re: Identabit Hangout w/ John Underwood
« Reply #37 on: September 06, 2015, 11:03:51 PM »
Enjoying the discussion +5%
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Offline underwun

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Re: Identabit Hangout w/ John Underwood
« Reply #38 on: September 07, 2015, 01:25:19 AM »
It's always interesting stopping by to see how divergent opinions are dealt with, it's unsurprising but sad to see nothing has changed.

Newmine is one of the very last dissenting voices that has had his warnings about the project ignored and suffered abuse at the hands of an overly protective community for quite some time. 

I'd also like to hear the answers to empiricals questions but given how many projects we've now seen partner with bitshares and then produce....nothing..... I have to ask what the value is of adding more partners when it's all just vapor?   Any planned launch date for Bitshares Music/Muse? 

Every time I check this forum I see no useful progress on the projects that took funding and haven't yet delivered anything usable but lots more dreams about what could be done in the future.    It would be great to see some working product instead of more promises and funding requests.

Hi Adam

Some questions about the purpose of LetsTalkBitcoin is it to:

Argue a subjective case for Bitcoin's importance and survival, if so might there be a risk you use your platform to influence continued support for unassailable initiatives, potentially encouraging your flock to chase a fading rainbow.
or
Reflect objectively the evolution of blockchain initiatives with the risk that you might have to support arguments that conflict with the sustainability of your show as you could find yourself having to acknowledge that the independent movement for anonymous currencies is failing
or
Influence outcomes by subjectively criticising projects, criticisms that might be wrong and misleading and as a result you risk undermining initiatives that are constructive and have valid arguments for why and how to realise the potential of independent projects.
or ideally
LTB might be focused on how each initiative might succeed, investigating the weaknesses and offering constructive suggestions,  intent on identifying and where possible eliminating fatal flaws and contributing to success of of diverse projects designed to disrupt and disintermediate the inefficient.

I am grateful to you and the LTB crew for the education you and your visitors have provided and until I read this put down of the Bitshares community I would have thought at a minimum you were interested in investigating possibilities, surprisingly it seems that you  are more interested in undermining decentralised initiatives that strive to navigate a path to disruption that you, without investigation, deem inappropriate.

You better than anyone know the staying power and the commitment displayed by the Bitshares team, it seems a shame you are prepared to casually undermine the credibility of Bitshares, Bitshares projects, LTB by default and those that have respected you from the pulpit of credence you have established.

While I have considered your voice at times somewhat condescending, I viewed you as opinionated and insightful. Now it appears you are prepared to casually undermine those those making every effort to disintermediate the corrupt and inefficient when their perspective differs from yours.

Adam I am keen to be wrong and open to all thoughts but first up let's not support or throw insults. This isn't an easy road we all have chosen and whether it's your way, the Bitshares way or the Identabit way, we all have a common objective, that is to slay the dragons of corruption, contain over reach and serve society.

Your narrative might be anonymity and ours privacy but surely we shouldn't make it a zero sum game, we can disagree but wish our respective objectives every success.

Right now we have a considered opinion that differs from yours, an opinion founded on a perfect storm. A storm  created when a publicity seeking regulator saw a $500m publicity campaign, this storm, gave Bitcoin undue prominence prior to it finishing its insidious journey to infiltrate consumer recognition and national boundaries.

As the storm settled in, whether we liked it or not, it became increasingly obvious to us that Bitcoin's journey to become a ubiquitous medium of exchange was over and at best it was going to remain a leveraged asset that underpins associated opportunities.

For us this was a major disappointment because along with Bitcoin, all anonymous currencies including Remitabit, a venture we had spent near a year on, were thrown under the bus. So we began a journey to counter our disappointment and to succeed rather than die along with all those crying 'hail anonymity', 'hail anonymity'.

We are guilty of being pragmatic but from our perspective it was either 'get real or die'.

At the same time we had a new son, we named Snowden, named for our respect for privacy and the man sacrificing his freedom for others, and like many parents of a newborn I became more sensitive to the plight of children. As I watched a news story about the distraught parents of a kidnapped toddler, I zoned in on the magnitude that true anonymous transactions represented to society, the capability truly anonymous currencies have to empower extortion and the exploitation of children with impunity in a way never before possible, and I asked myself that if I had Snowden's life in one hand and anonymous transactions in the other which would I choose?

Of course it wasn't ever a real question, is was in fact a realisation that any digital currency must have build in safeguards, not only to prevent overreach and financial exploitation but also to protect society from the crazy's down the road.

That's the history behind the journey that required we find a genuine solution to building a decentralised identity ensured currency. I say genuine because as you know it's easy to say but near impossible to build, we needed blockchain auditability, hidden addresses, hidden transaction values, ease of use, ease of engagement, decentralised governance, sustainable issuance and conditional transaction inspection that didn't expose the blockchain to government and yet would enable AML/CTF compliance and we needed brilliance, brilliance that until Identabit was, like you, dedicated to an opposing perspective.

I am sure you will agree that the task of satisfying the above goals was a tall order.

Today we have a genuine solution that respects first and foremost privacy to a far greater degree than Bitcoin, the need for institutional support by way of governed compliance, governed sustainable issuance and adoption and usage mechanisms that address engagement, accuracy of transfer, ease of use and widespread adoption. None of which would have been possible without the combined efforts and perseverance of our respective teams.

I suspect that you have joined this thread because folk have shown respect for our argument, and yet disappointingly your first words aren't questions but implied criticism. I can understand the automatic cynicism, talk of building an identity ensured alternative to Bitcoin brings, given the counterintuitive nature of the project and the smell of ill considered opportunism, but we are the real deal as time will tell.

So if you wish to put us down without due process you can, or if you are inclined, I offer to sacrifice my credence should you, Andreas and Stephenie wish to rip me apart.

We know this is a long game and will take strategic thought and considerable effort but I believe that unless we dispense with partisanship and take unified strategic action, we (you and I) will be watching the banks become the real beneficiaries of your efforts to raise awareness in blockchain technology.
There's a reason for everything and if there isn't there should be...

Offline Unzz

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Re: Identabit Hangout w/ John Underwood
« Reply #39 on: September 08, 2015, 03:58:17 PM »
Well said ...
« Last Edit: September 09, 2015, 02:05:25 AM by underwun »

Offline fuzzy

Re: Identabit Hangout w/ John Underwood
« Reply #40 on: September 11, 2015, 02:40:10 AM »
Well said ...

Let's hope it sinks in :)

Our community has grown quite a bit.  We have made mistakes but we have also supported one of the best technologies available growing into what it was meant to become.  It will only get better, too. 

Oh and @abl now would be a great time for you to unblock me.  I was trying to privately send you a list of partnerships that are working beautifully so as to not make it seem like an attack.  Reading this, though, we are likely going to have another one on our hands shortly...so history will probably be more accurate than my own recountings.

Regardless, feel free to ask me or run any comments in question (where you are not entirely certain about the particulars) and I'll gladly answer them.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2015, 02:42:02 AM by fuzzy »
WhaleShares==DKP; BitShares is our Community! 
ShareBits and WhaleShares = Love :D

Offline DMo09

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Re: Identabit Hangout w/ John Underwood
« Reply #41 on: September 21, 2015, 09:13:12 PM »
Another "Hangout" soon?  =)

Offline fuzzy

Re: Identabit Hangout w/ John Underwood
« Reply #42 on: September 22, 2015, 02:33:52 PM »
Another "Hangout" soon?  =)
Yes.  John will be having hangouts pretty regularly. :)
We are alo looking into an Open Ledger hangout and a few others within our ecosystem.  Lots of stuff coming up...

And with that said I would like to let you all know our Big Blue Button server is up and available so we are going to be looking at bringing John and other devs onto it to give lectures and teach  about their projects from both technological and theoretical perspectives.  We feel that those building the foundations of a new paradigm should be heard and given the opportunity to teach.  Devs with future worker proposals will also be able to use this tool. 

So get ready for some cool stuff coming :)
« Last Edit: September 22, 2015, 02:48:43 PM by fuzzy »
WhaleShares==DKP; BitShares is our Community! 
ShareBits and WhaleShares = Love :D

Offline soleri

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Re: Identabit Hangout w/ John Underwood
« Reply #43 on: October 10, 2015, 12:29:57 PM »
Hi everybody!

I am new to this forum. I have just heard about Identabit. Sounds very interesting. How can I get an account and where can I buy the coins? Also, what is the coin code if I want to buy it on a crypto exchange?

Thanks.

Soleri

Offline santaclause102

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Re: Identabit Hangout w/ John Underwood
« Reply #44 on: October 10, 2015, 01:47:44 PM »
Hi everybody!

I am new to this forum. I have just heard about Identabit. Sounds very interesting. How can I get an account and where can I buy the coins? Also, what is the coin code if I want to buy it on a crypto exchange?

Thanks.

Soleri
Identabit is not out there yet so u cant buy it on an exchange and also can't get an "account". It was said that BTS holders as well as Brownie.PTS holders (can be bought on Bitshares's internal exchange) will get 20% each of the identabit "coins" when it does come out.

 

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