Author Topic: Identabit Hangout w/ John Underwood  (Read 19659 times)

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Offline tonyk

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...

I agree, thank you...I have devoted the time to the deserving detailed reply.


No thank you.
It was the right thing to do and it takes a man to face his mistakes. And God knows there is not yet a man that have not made quite a few of those.
You have a big +5% in my book.
Lack of arbitrage is the problem, isn't it. And this 'should' solves it.

Offline underwun

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It's a good interview.  I don't  think Identabit will scale well because the big doors will be locked, also on the technology side they will have nothing that can't be replicated and they don't have the super massive funding that's required to compete with the likes of Blythe Masters and such ('It's on the blockhain' - Bloomberg Magazines Cover story 2 days ago http://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2015-09-01/blythe-masters-tells-banks-the-blockchain-changes-everything )

In his intro John  identifies how a key difference between crypto and current payment options is convenience and simplicity however I would argue the simplicity, convenience & payment integration of crypto is only starting to take shape. With 1 second vs. 30 minute confirmation times. Crypto-funded debit cards, payment apps & stable BitAssets only starting to be introduced. I think it is too early to make his judgement.

Also he makes some statements about Bitcoin use and demographics that I don't think are backed up by the facts.
The vast majority of Bitcoiners were young tech savvy Libertarian males not a small group of elites only using it for extremely illicit activity & as Bitcoin becomes more user friendly this demographic is naturally becoming less tech savvy and from a broader political spectrum attracted by the various now more accessible benefits Bitcoin provides.

25 Sept 2014 - http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2014-09-25/bitcoin-economy-widens-as-parents-pay-digital-allowance

Quote
People worldwide have opened 41 million bitcoin accounts, according to the Bank of England. Global spending on goods and services has doubled in the past year.

Parents are dispensing allowances in bitcoins so their kids learn to be digital citizens.Consumers in emerging markets such as Brazil and Russia are starting to use bitcoin to hedge against currency volatility.

Three factors are attracting consumers to bitcoin. The currency is less volatile. New apps and digital wallets make using it easier. And mainstream companies -- more than 75,000, according to payment services Coinbase and BitPay -- accept the virtual currency

Even if you were to focus exclusively on crypto's black market use. The black market accounts for over 23% of global GDP and in countries such as Greece  it's pushing 25-30%. 

Quote
Bitcoin ATMs could spring up across Greece as soon as October as citizens and businesses become increasingly desperate to move their money despite capital controls.

http://www.cnbc.com/2015/08/19/greece-could-soon-get-1000-bitcoin-atms.html

That is a massive portion of the economy and population already operating outside the reach of traditional institutions. The reason crypto-currencies not owned by the big banks have the potential to be massively profitable & scalable is precisely because the traditional institutions are largely excluded from directly participating in it.

I also think it's possible to integrate social media accounts onto crypto blockchains for the less privacy concerned users and so still gain certain network effect benefits.. 

I think Bitcoin has struggled in price because of the high costs which he identified but also the volatility which means the massive increase in use of Bitcoin by consumers for traditional goods and services creates a net downward pressure on price because businesses operating on extremely tight margins have to exchange BTC revenue immediately for fiat. However despite it's volatility, Bitcoin is very popular fro currency hedging vs. rapidly depreciating currencies in South America as indicated in the article above . Also in places like Greece as a safe haven currency outside their failing banking system. 

However stable Smartcoins are much better suited to this and BitUSD is in many instances far more useful than fiat USD. So we haven't even scratched the surface of what's possible in these markets.

Also this is a global trend. Governments in many countries will be instigating strict capital controls to protect their currencies and their financial system.
(China just increased capital controls yesterday.) As a result I suspect, even with the Identity element most financial institutions would be not be allowed to interact with Identabit anyway. Or the Identabit gateways would have to enforce these restrictions too in which case Identabit would lose it's USP to the majority of the future mainstream market imo. (An inflation hedge and currency outside the over-leveraged banking system.)

So while I see a market for Identabit especially in remittances if they already have a partnership with a bank and can thus remove  a layer of transaction complexity. I think centralised blockchains started by big players will dominate. (Centralised blockchains will likely dominate his target market because it seems unlikely that people who didn't value the benefits of optional anonymity & financial freedom would then highly value the benefits/USP's of decentral vs. centralisation.) So I think that the really big future still lies with the traditional, anonymity optional crypto, but with much lower costs than Bitcoin and stable BitAssets.

Edit: On a side note the use of USD at black market rates in countries like Argentina, shows how an entire population, economy and businesses can get behind using a currency outside of institutions and regulatory compliance

I started with a detailed response but quickly realised this was an argument driven by emotion and hope. We wish you well.

John, I honestly hate the disregarding tone of your response. You could have just not answered if indeed that's your true thoughts. but you decided to go passive aggressive on one of the more thoughtful people around here (if you are not aware of that FACT take the time to read say last 50 posts of Empirical for self educating purposes,  I promise you it will be time well spent even with your busy schedule).

And while I do not have any strong thoughts one way or the other on the correctness of Empirical's analyses, I fail to see any strong emotions shown and have no clue what 'hope' are you talking about?

I agree, thank you...I have devoted the time to the deserving detailed reply.
There's a reason for everything and if there isn't there should be...

Offline underwun

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My apologies, I was tired and dismissive, below I explain why I felt the comments below lacked substance, and appeared to be driven more from a perspective of ideology

It's a good interview.  I don't  think Identabit will scale well because the big doors will be locked, also on the technology side they will have nothing that can't be replicated and they don't have the super massive funding that's required to compete with the likes of Blythe Masters and such ('It's on the blockhain' - Bloomberg Magazines Cover story 2 days ago http://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2015-09-01/blythe-masters-tells-banks-the-blockchain-changes-everything )

This reminds me of a debate that argued against building a messaging platform because Facebook had 500 devs (a while back) and that it was foolish to think it was possible to compete with their dev power. 3 years later they bought WhatsApp for $16B and a dev team of 50.

Re funding and institutions, this is an area we are familiar with and we couldn't agree more that Identabit needs strategy, purpose and our relationships, in order to succeed.


In his intro John  identifies how a key difference between crypto and current payment options is convenience and simplicity however I would argue the simplicity, convenience & payment integration of crypto is only starting to take shape. With 1 second vs. 30 minute confirmation times. Crypto-funded debit cards, payment apps & stable BitAssets only starting to be introduced. I think it is too early to make his judgement.

We believe the absence of widespread consumer adoption is for the following reasons:
  • We believe for users to transition to a new paradigm it must be easier not harder for users to engage and use, there must be a usage value proposition. Consequently the inherent the requirement of anonymity, being to carefully add users one by one, makes it harder not easier to engage and use.
  • Users cannot acquire the target currency through normal means.
  • The threat of theft and the stigma of crime is threatening
In summary Bitcoin is too hard to buy, too hard to use and unsettles consumers.

Also he makes some statements about Bitcoin use and demographics that I don't think are backed up by the facts.
The vast majority of Bitcoiners were young tech savvy Libertarian males not a small group of elites only using it for extremely illicit activity & as Bitcoin becomes more user friendly this demographic is naturally becoming less tech savvy and from a broader political spectrum attracted by the various now more accessible benefits Bitcoin provides.
 
Some facts:
80% of Bitcoin is trade is in China.
The Chinese are attracted to Bitcoin because it enables circumvention of capital controls, hence why the massive mining rigs, the Chinese need homemade Bitcoin that they can buy for Yuan.

Of the remaining 20%, Bitpay have reported that darkweb volumes outstrip regular merchant traffic. So we are left with a small percentage of Bitcoin trade being used by the examples listed below.

The facts above, if acknowledged, reflect that the majority of users are people circumventing various laws, and I am unaware of any facts that substantiate material adoption by regular consumers.

If we add the Chinese attracted to expatriation of funds, those trading on the dark and the web tech savvy Libertarian males we are left with the question where are the consumers?

In fact if we look at articles speaking of a shrinking market we can deduce that Bitcoin's exciting days of being accepted as a global currencies are, in the opinion of many, over.


Bitcoin Exchange Harborly Shuts Down Due To Shrinking Market Opportunity

37Coins.com Shuts Down Bitcoin Operations

Gyft Co-Founder: Credit Card Spending Now Outpacing Bitcoin

Bitcoin bust?

The examples below of Bitcoin being used are I believe reflective of spin and convenient reasoning and belong to a group of articles designed to keep the Bitcoin hope alive e.g.:

Barclays just became the first UK bank to support bitcoin

When in fact the truth is:

Leading UK Bank Barclay's has denied it will accept Bitcoin later this year

No matter the confidence displayed below the facts above are telling the story.


25 Sept 2014 - http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2014-09-25/bitcoin-economy-widens-as-parents-pay-digital-allowance

Quote
People worldwide have opened 41 million bitcoin accounts, according to the Bank of England. Global spending on goods and services has doubled in the past year.

Parents are dispensing allowances in bitcoins so their kids learn to be digital citizens.Consumers in emerging markets such as Brazil and Russia are starting to use bitcoin to hedge against currency volatility.

Three factors are attracting consumers to bitcoin. The currency is less volatile. New apps and digital wallets make using it easier. And mainstream companies -- more than 75,000, according to payment services Coinbase and BitPay -- accept the virtual currency

Accepting maybe but receiving is another story, Bitcoin Payments Decline Significantly At Expedia

Even if you were to focus exclusively on crypto's black market use. The black market accounts for over 23% of global GDP and in countries such as Greece  it's pushing 25-30%. 

Quote
Bitcoin ATMs could spring up across Greece as soon as October as citizens and businesses become increasingly desperate to move their money despite capital controls.

http://www.cnbc.com/2015/08/19/greece-could-soon-get-1000-bitcoin-atms.html

I think the above confidence in Greece using Bitcoin is so heavily qualified by Thanos Marinos, the founder of BTCGreece, i.e. Thanos Marinos, the founder of BTCGreece, told CNBC on Wednesday that a soft launch was on the cards for October. "It is part of my vision to create a block chain ecosystem in Greece," he told CNBC. "If all goes as expected with no major issues we will launch first ATMs October 2015." that we shouldn't put much stock in it becoming a reality.

That is a massive portion of the economy and population already operating outside the reach of traditional institutions. The reason crypto-currencies not owned by the big banks have the potential to be massively profitable & scalable is precisely because the traditional institutions are largely excluded from directly participating in it.

I think the above means that, because banks don't trade in Bitcoin it makes for a more efficient payment environment, I am the first to agree that the banks are inefficient and that it is our job to disrupt but for the life of me I cannot see how this can be done from the outside, the only way to disrupt is from the inside.

If we pull together we can make a difference and change the financial landscape for the better but if we spend our time arguing principles, we will watch from the sidelines as the very institutions we sought to disrupt turn savings into profits.


I also think it's possible to integrate social media accounts onto crypto blockchains for the less privacy concerned users and so still gain certain network effect benefits.

I think Bitcoin has struggled in price because of the high costs which he identified but also the volatility which means the massive increase in use of Bitcoin by consumers for traditional goods and services creates a net downward pressure on price because businesses operating on extremely tight margins have to exchange BTC revenue immediately for fiat. However despite it's volatility, Bitcoin is very popular fro currency hedging vs. rapidly depreciating currencies in South America as indicated in the article above . Also in places like Greece as a safe haven currency outside their failing banking system. 

I point to the articles and the data mentioned above, it was this statement the massive increase in use of Bitcoin by consumers for traditional goods and services that caused me to stop writing this detailed response yesterday. This is simply not true and I believe reflects hope not fact.

However stable Smartcoins are much better suited to this and BitUSD is in many instances far more useful than fiat USD. So we haven't even scratched the surface of what's possible in these markets.

I have great regard for what makes Smartcoins smart, it is without question an example of why we are here and why we believe in the work done on Bitshares but I do not believe this feature and others are relevant until such time we have demand and volume for the core asset, hence why we are focused on mainstream adoption and why Market Pegged Assets and other advanced features are not part of our initial objectives.

Also this is a global trend. Governments in many countries will be instigating strict capital controls to protect their currencies and their financial system.
(China just increased capital controls yesterday.) As a result I suspect, even with the Identity element most financial institutions would be not be allowed to interact with Identabit anyway. Or the Identabit gateways would have to enforce these restrictions too in which case Identabit would lose it's USP to the majority of the future mainstream market imo. (An inflation hedge and currency outside the over-leveraged banking system.)

The above gets to the point of Identabit and where the division is between the writer and our objectives. We believe that these restrictions will be enforced and we must comply and that our USP is our respect for this reality.

Don't get us wrong, we want to disrupt but we intend to do it from within, we are not fighting for an ideal but for a realizable objective.

As a side comment, if China's capital controls are imposed and prevent Bitcoin being used for its primary purpose then Bitcoin problems have to get much worse.


So while I see a market for Identabit especially in remittances if they already have a partnership with a bank and can thus remove  a layer of transaction complexity. I think centralised blockchains started by big players will dominate. (Centralised blockchains will likely dominate his target market because it seems unlikely that people who didn't value the benefits of optional anonymity & financial freedom would then highly value the benefits/USP's of decentral vs. centralisation.) So I think that the really big future still lies with the traditional, anonymity optional crypto, but with much lower costs than Bitcoin and stable BitAssets.

Out of all the statements and inferred questions above I consider this to be the most pertinent and if true then I would go further and say this means there is no place for an independent neutral currency, not Bitcoin, not Identabit not anything and we should all pack up and go and work for the institutions.

It was confronting this potential reality that gave birth to Idenabit, because the at heart of both the objective and the argument are neutrality, ROI on existing infrastructure and adoption. three elements that when combined make the case for an independent decentralised identity ensured network.

Neutrality is logical because domain specific currencies work for the self interests of the issuer, as a consequence they will see resistance to acceptance across borders, 'if You own it, They won't use it' where as a neutral medium of exchange has the potential to cross borders and be used by everyone.

ROI on existing infrastructure, we are already seeing Bitcoin businesses exiting due to a shrinking market, they need a currency that they can profit from and it's these businesses, amongst others, that Identabit is designed to serve.

Adoption is core to execution, if we look at Bitcoin and the altcoin market they all have one thing in common, none have a use case designed to drive adoption, this is core to our medium term objectives and will shared in the months ahead.


Edit: On a side note the use of USD at black market rates in countries like Argentina, shows how an entire population, economy and businesses can get behind using a currency outside of institutions and regulatory compliance

There is no question that anonymity has it's place but in reality it will most likely be driven underground, Identabit is not competing for blackmarket constituents.


In summary we believe we need a currency that works with the system in order to change it.
There's a reason for everything and if there isn't there should be...

Offline Stan

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It's always interesting stopping by to see how divergent opinions are dealt with, it's unsurprising but sad to see nothing has changed.

Newmine is one of the very last dissenting voices that has had his warnings about the project ignored and suffered abuse at the hands of an overly protective community for quite some time. 

I'd also like to hear the answers to empiricals questions but given how many projects we've now seen partner with bitshares and then produce....nothing..... I have to ask what the value is of adding more partners when it's all just vapor?   Any planned launch date for Bitshares Music/Muse? 

Every time I check this forum I see no useful progress on the projects that took funding and haven't yet delivered anything usable but lots more dreams about what could be done in the future.    It would be great to see some working product instead of more promises and funding requests.

Actually most of our partners have been patiently waiting to get some of Dan's time to help them integrate Graphene.  BitShares gets to go first because of "seniority" and because it makes no sense to try to debug several new chains and business models until the core technology is thoroughly proven.  Most partners are chomping at the bit to get going and you can expect them in rapid succession once we heave BitShares 2.0 across the finish line.

So blame Dan.  He's the slacker taking time off to eat and sleep every day.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2015, 10:07:49 pm by Stan »
Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract of any kind.   These are merely my opinions which I reserve the right to change at any time.

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Newmine ... has had his warnings about the project ignored

I disagree. If anything, EVERYONE reads Newmine's post. ;) 

But yeah I know what you mean.

I think there are many who appreciate Newmines input but don't bother to get involved in the back-n-forth that usually follows.

He says what I'm sure a lot of people are thinking, but don't bother bringing up publicly out of fear of ... getting "Newmined".

and suffered abuse at the hands of an overly protective community for quite some time. 

Agreed.

I welcome(d) his research. All research is welcome, good or bad.

I think I've read people say it's his delivery that they have issues with, and that's when things get derailed.

It becomes a discussion about Newmine, instead of about Newmines information.

Like this post. ;)


Offline onceuponatime

It's always interesting stopping by to see how divergent opinions are dealt with, it's unsurprising but sad to see nothing has changed.

Newmine is one of the very last dissenting voices that has had his warnings about the project ignored and suffered abuse at the hands of an overly protective community for quite some time. 

I'd also like to hear the answers to empiricals questions but given how many projects we've now seen partner with bitshares and then produce....nothing..... I have to ask what the value is of adding more partners when it's all just vapor?   Any planned launch date for Bitshares Music/Muse? 

Every time I check this forum I see no useful progress on the projects that took funding and haven't yet delivered anything usable but lots more dreams about what could be done in the future.    It would be great to see some working product instead of more promises and funding requests.

I can only assume that just "stopping by" doesn't give you enough information/background to grok newmine's modus operandi as a troll. He is very clever, so not surprising that he has fooled you too.

chryspano

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Hey, newmine....
did you call for reinforcments?

It's  nice to see the good old AdamB we all know and love back...

Offline AdamBLevine

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It's always interesting stopping by to see how divergent opinions are dealt with, it's unsurprising but sad to see nothing has changed.

Newmine is one of the very last dissenting voices that has had his warnings about the project ignored and suffered abuse at the hands of an overly protective community for quite some time. 

I'd also like to hear the answers to empiricals questions but given how many projects we've now seen partner with bitshares and then produce....nothing..... I have to ask what the value is of adding more partners when it's all just vapor?   Any planned launch date for Bitshares Music/Muse? 

Every time I check this forum I see no useful progress on the projects that took funding and haven't yet delivered anything usable but lots more dreams about what could be done in the future.    It would be great to see some working product instead of more promises and funding requests.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2015, 07:30:50 pm by AdamBLevine »
Email me at adam@letstalkbitcoin.com

chryspano

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Did I call you a Troll? Im really sorry newmine! LOL

BTW there is no need for brownies dear troll, I already bought a TON of them and you are still mising my point (or you pretend you do, as you always do!)

This must be a tough day for you newmine...



Remember this day because you will have o lot more like this one!

I'm curious for how long your masters will continue to pay you...I have a feeling the end of your journey is near....dear Troll!

Offline NewMine

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newmine the great troll is out of his cave again...

Hey dude, it totally sucks you didn't get any brownies and have to beg for them. You seriously deserve


Indeed, this is what has caused us to have to opportunity to buy BTS at all time lows right before launch.  I'll take it.

Now that pretty much everyone who isnt completely committed to the project has been pissed off and induced to dump their BTS at low prices, we'll be able to go up.


As to specifics of Brownies, Bytemaster can see the distribution since he controls the asset, but its a mystery to the rest of us.  "Regular users", if by that you mean forum regulars over the past year, probably got about 3000-6000 brownies depending on post count (at least, if they posted in the thread and bytemaster gave brownies).  Those who did dev work for BTS got tens of thousands or even hundreds of thousands of BTS, based on looking at the supply distribution.  (We cant see who they are, just how much is in different accounts).  As to people who didnt get them in those ways, they have to grind mumble sessions for DKP Brownies, or buy them.


Brownies are pretty much 'Bytemaster DKP' in my mind.  He will distribute the epic loots in time. ;)

I'm not sure this is true, I posted in the thread and never recieved any brownies. Also a asked a question for muble but the question was never asked in muble or answered in the muble thread.

I would like to give 1000 points per "block" for every forum member with more than 1 block.  (Heros, etc...) and I will give major points to someone who offers to hand them out.

Is this going to happen at some point?
https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php/topic,16318.msg228944.html#msg228944
Can we get this guy some brownies please?
« Last Edit: September 05, 2015, 05:18:09 pm by newmine »

chryspano

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newmine the great troll is out of his cave again...

Tuck Fheman

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Offline NewMine

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It's a good interview.  I don't  think Identabit will scale well because the big doors will be locked, also on the technology side they will have nothing that can't be replicated and they don't have the super massive funding that's required to compete with the likes of Blythe Masters and such ('It's on the blockhain' - Bloomberg Magazines Cover story 2 days ago http://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2015-09-01/blythe-masters-tells-banks-the-blockchain-changes-everything )

In his intro John  identifies how a key difference between crypto and current payment options is convenience and simplicity however I would argue the simplicity, convenience & payment integration of crypto is only starting to take shape. With 1 second vs. 30 minute confirmation times. Crypto-funded debit cards, payment apps & stable BitAssets only starting to be introduced. I think it is too early to make his judgement.

Also he makes some statements about Bitcoin use and demographics that I don't think are backed up by the facts.
The vast majority of Bitcoiners were young tech savvy Libertarian males not a small group of elites only using it for extremely illicit activity & as Bitcoin becomes more user friendly this demographic is naturally becoming less tech savvy and from a broader political spectrum attracted by the various now more accessible benefits Bitcoin provides.

25 Sept 2014 - http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2014-09-25/bitcoin-economy-widens-as-parents-pay-digital-allowance

Quote
People worldwide have opened 41 million bitcoin accounts, according to the Bank of England. Global spending on goods and services has doubled in the past year.

Parents are dispensing allowances in bitcoins so their kids learn to be digital citizens.Consumers in emerging markets such as Brazil and Russia are starting to use bitcoin to hedge against currency volatility.

Three factors are attracting consumers to bitcoin. The currency is less volatile. New apps and digital wallets make using it easier. And mainstream companies -- more than 75,000, according to payment services Coinbase and BitPay -- accept the virtual currency

Even if you were to focus exclusively on crypto's black market use. The black market accounts for over 23% of global GDP and in countries such as Greece  it's pushing 25-30%. 

Quote
Bitcoin ATMs could spring up across Greece as soon as October as citizens and businesses become increasingly desperate to move their money despite capital controls.

http://www.cnbc.com/2015/08/19/greece-could-soon-get-1000-bitcoin-atms.html

That is a massive portion of the economy and population already operating outside the reach of traditional institutions. The reason crypto-currencies not owned by the big banks have the potential to be massively profitable & scalable is precisely because the traditional institutions are largely excluded from directly participating in it.

I also think it's possible to integrate social media accounts onto crypto blockchains for the less privacy concerned users and so still gain certain network effect benefits.. 

I think Bitcoin has struggled in price because of the high costs which he identified but also the volatility which means the massive increase in use of Bitcoin by consumers for traditional goods and services creates a net downward pressure on price because businesses operating on extremely tight margins have to exchange BTC revenue immediately for fiat. However despite it's volatility, Bitcoin is very popular fro currency hedging vs. rapidly depreciating currencies in South America as indicated in the article above . Also in places like Greece as a safe haven currency outside their failing banking system. 

However stable Smartcoins are much better suited to this and BitUSD is in many instances far more useful than fiat USD. So we haven't even scratched the surface of what's possible in these markets.

Also this is a global trend. Governments in many countries will be instigating strict capital controls to protect their currencies and their financial system.
(China just increased capital controls yesterday.) As a result I suspect, even with the Identity element most financial institutions would be not be allowed to interact with Identabit anyway. Or the Identabit gateways would have to enforce these restrictions too in which case Identabit would lose it's USP to the majority of the future mainstream market imo. (An inflation hedge and currency outside the over-leveraged banking system.)

So while I see a market for Identabit especially in remittances if they already have a partnership with a bank and can thus remove  a layer of transaction complexity. I think centralised blockchains started by big players will dominate. (Centralised blockchains will likely dominate his target market because it seems unlikely that people who didn't value the benefits of optional anonymity & financial freedom would then highly value the benefits/USP's of decentral vs. centralisation.) So I think that the really big future still lies with the traditional, anonymity optional crypto, but with much lower costs than Bitcoin and stable BitAssets.

Edit: On a side note the use of USD at black market rates in countries like Argentina, shows how an entire population, economy and businesses can get behind using a currency outside of institutions and regulatory compliance

I started with a detailed response but quickly realised this was an argument driven by emotion and hope. We wish you well.
Did you even read his post? There was no emotionally driven argument.

--

I wouldn't worry too much about this guy and his project, identabit, remitabit, or whateverbit. This guy is a classic opportunist and a VC vampire. Good for him if you people are dumb enough to buy into his sales pitch. He deserves every penny.  I suspected something fishy from the beginning when this guy's claim to fame was that he was CEO of Sun Micro Australian division. After researching him, I saw that he was CEO for a few months 31 years ago. Mind you this was 2 years after Sun Microsystems was founded, so you can imagine the scale of the division he was in charge of. He was a place holder in a small division of an infantile company(at the time) but yet this is number one selling point of why you should trust him? I would use this reference too if I had zero successful projects in the following 31 years. 

Mark my words, this guys project will never see the light of day, especially if he releases some value token previous to an actual working remitabit (errr, I mean identabit).

I will also bet you that you will respond to this emotionally driven argument, well probably not, since now I stated such.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2015, 11:03:35 pm by newmine »

Offline tonyk

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It's a good interview.  I don't  think Identabit will scale well because the big doors will be locked, also on the technology side they will have nothing that can't be replicated and they don't have the super massive funding that's required to compete with the likes of Blythe Masters and such ('It's on the blockhain' - Bloomberg Magazines Cover story 2 days ago http://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2015-09-01/blythe-masters-tells-banks-the-blockchain-changes-everything )

In his intro John  identifies how a key difference between crypto and current payment options is convenience and simplicity however I would argue the simplicity, convenience & payment integration of crypto is only starting to take shape. With 1 second vs. 30 minute confirmation times. Crypto-funded debit cards, payment apps & stable BitAssets only starting to be introduced. I think it is too early to make his judgement.

Also he makes some statements about Bitcoin use and demographics that I don't think are backed up by the facts.
The vast majority of Bitcoiners were young tech savvy Libertarian males not a small group of elites only using it for extremely illicit activity & as Bitcoin becomes more user friendly this demographic is naturally becoming less tech savvy and from a broader political spectrum attracted by the various now more accessible benefits Bitcoin provides.

25 Sept 2014 - http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2014-09-25/bitcoin-economy-widens-as-parents-pay-digital-allowance

Quote
People worldwide have opened 41 million bitcoin accounts, according to the Bank of England. Global spending on goods and services has doubled in the past year.

Parents are dispensing allowances in bitcoins so their kids learn to be digital citizens.Consumers in emerging markets such as Brazil and Russia are starting to use bitcoin to hedge against currency volatility.

Three factors are attracting consumers to bitcoin. The currency is less volatile. New apps and digital wallets make using it easier. And mainstream companies -- more than 75,000, according to payment services Coinbase and BitPay -- accept the virtual currency

Even if you were to focus exclusively on crypto's black market use. The black market accounts for over 23% of global GDP and in countries such as Greece  it's pushing 25-30%. 

Quote
Bitcoin ATMs could spring up across Greece as soon as October as citizens and businesses become increasingly desperate to move their money despite capital controls.

http://www.cnbc.com/2015/08/19/greece-could-soon-get-1000-bitcoin-atms.html

That is a massive portion of the economy and population already operating outside the reach of traditional institutions. The reason crypto-currencies not owned by the big banks have the potential to be massively profitable & scalable is precisely because the traditional institutions are largely excluded from directly participating in it.

I also think it's possible to integrate social media accounts onto crypto blockchains for the less privacy concerned users and so still gain certain network effect benefits.. 

I think Bitcoin has struggled in price because of the high costs which he identified but also the volatility which means the massive increase in use of Bitcoin by consumers for traditional goods and services creates a net downward pressure on price because businesses operating on extremely tight margins have to exchange BTC revenue immediately for fiat. However despite it's volatility, Bitcoin is very popular fro currency hedging vs. rapidly depreciating currencies in South America as indicated in the article above . Also in places like Greece as a safe haven currency outside their failing banking system. 

However stable Smartcoins are much better suited to this and BitUSD is in many instances far more useful than fiat USD. So we haven't even scratched the surface of what's possible in these markets.

Also this is a global trend. Governments in many countries will be instigating strict capital controls to protect their currencies and their financial system.
(China just increased capital controls yesterday.) As a result I suspect, even with the Identity element most financial institutions would be not be allowed to interact with Identabit anyway. Or the Identabit gateways would have to enforce these restrictions too in which case Identabit would lose it's USP to the majority of the future mainstream market imo. (An inflation hedge and currency outside the over-leveraged banking system.)

So while I see a market for Identabit especially in remittances if they already have a partnership with a bank and can thus remove  a layer of transaction complexity. I think centralised blockchains started by big players will dominate. (Centralised blockchains will likely dominate his target market because it seems unlikely that people who didn't value the benefits of optional anonymity & financial freedom would then highly value the benefits/USP's of decentral vs. centralisation.) So I think that the really big future still lies with the traditional, anonymity optional crypto, but with much lower costs than Bitcoin and stable BitAssets.

Edit: On a side note the use of USD at black market rates in countries like Argentina, shows how an entire population, economy and businesses can get behind using a currency outside of institutions and regulatory compliance

I started with a detailed response but quickly realised this was an argument driven by emotion and hope. We wish you well.

John, I honestly hate the disregarding tone of your response. You could have just not answered if indeed that's your true thoughts. but you decided to go passive aggressive on one of the more thoughtful people around here (if you are not aware of that FACT take the time to read say last 50 posts of Empirical for self educating purposes,  I promise you it will be time well spent even with your busy schedule).

And while I do not have any strong thoughts one way or the other on the correctness of Empirical's analyses, I fail to see any strong emotions shown and have no clue what 'hope' are you talking about?
« Last Edit: September 05, 2015, 02:06:37 pm by tonyk »
Lack of arbitrage is the problem, isn't it. And this 'should' solves it.

Offline underwun

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It's a good interview.  I don't  think Identabit will scale well because the big doors will be locked, also on the technology side they will have nothing that can't be replicated and they don't have the super massive funding that's required to compete with the likes of Blythe Masters and such ('It's on the blockhain' - Bloomberg Magazines Cover story 2 days ago http://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2015-09-01/blythe-masters-tells-banks-the-blockchain-changes-everything )

In his intro John  identifies how a key difference between crypto and current payment options is convenience and simplicity however I would argue the simplicity, convenience & payment integration of crypto is only starting to take shape. With 1 second vs. 30 minute confirmation times. Crypto-funded debit cards, payment apps & stable BitAssets only starting to be introduced. I think it is too early to make his judgement.

Also he makes some statements about Bitcoin use and demographics that I don't think are backed up by the facts.
The vast majority of Bitcoiners were young tech savvy Libertarian males not a small group of elites only using it for extremely illicit activity & as Bitcoin becomes more user friendly this demographic is naturally becoming less tech savvy and from a broader political spectrum attracted by the various now more accessible benefits Bitcoin provides.

25 Sept 2014 - http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2014-09-25/bitcoin-economy-widens-as-parents-pay-digital-allowance

Quote
People worldwide have opened 41 million bitcoin accounts, according to the Bank of England. Global spending on goods and services has doubled in the past year.

Parents are dispensing allowances in bitcoins so their kids learn to be digital citizens.Consumers in emerging markets such as Brazil and Russia are starting to use bitcoin to hedge against currency volatility.

Three factors are attracting consumers to bitcoin. The currency is less volatile. New apps and digital wallets make using it easier. And mainstream companies -- more than 75,000, according to payment services Coinbase and BitPay -- accept the virtual currency

Even if you were to focus exclusively on crypto's black market use. The black market accounts for over 23% of global GDP and in countries such as Greece  it's pushing 25-30%. 

Quote
Bitcoin ATMs could spring up across Greece as soon as October as citizens and businesses become increasingly desperate to move their money despite capital controls.

http://www.cnbc.com/2015/08/19/greece-could-soon-get-1000-bitcoin-atms.html

That is a massive portion of the economy and population already operating outside the reach of traditional institutions. The reason crypto-currencies not owned by the big banks have the potential to be massively profitable & scalable is precisely because the traditional institutions are largely excluded from directly participating in it.

I also think it's possible to integrate social media accounts onto crypto blockchains for the less privacy concerned users and so still gain certain network effect benefits.. 

I think Bitcoin has struggled in price because of the high costs which he identified but also the volatility which means the massive increase in use of Bitcoin by consumers for traditional goods and services creates a net downward pressure on price because businesses operating on extremely tight margins have to exchange BTC revenue immediately for fiat. However despite it's volatility, Bitcoin is very popular fro currency hedging vs. rapidly depreciating currencies in South America as indicated in the article above . Also in places like Greece as a safe haven currency outside their failing banking system. 

However stable Smartcoins are much better suited to this and BitUSD is in many instances far more useful than fiat USD. So we haven't even scratched the surface of what's possible in these markets.

Also this is a global trend. Governments in many countries will be instigating strict capital controls to protect their currencies and their financial system.
(China just increased capital controls yesterday.) As a result I suspect, even with the Identity element most financial institutions would be not be allowed to interact with Identabit anyway. Or the Identabit gateways would have to enforce these restrictions too in which case Identabit would lose it's USP to the majority of the future mainstream market imo. (An inflation hedge and currency outside the over-leveraged banking system.)

So while I see a market for Identabit especially in remittances if they already have a partnership with a bank and can thus remove  a layer of transaction complexity. I think centralised blockchains started by big players will dominate. (Centralised blockchains will likely dominate his target market because it seems unlikely that people who didn't value the benefits of optional anonymity & financial freedom would then highly value the benefits/USP's of decentral vs. centralisation.) So I think that the really big future still lies with the traditional, anonymity optional crypto, but with much lower costs than Bitcoin and stable BitAssets.

Edit: On a side note the use of USD at black market rates in countries like Argentina, shows how an entire population, economy and businesses can get behind using a currency outside of institutions and regulatory compliance

I started with a detailed response but quickly realised this was an argument driven by emotion and hope. We wish you well.

There's a reason for everything and if there isn't there should be...