Author Topic: Why are we Here? Why BitShares? Why this community? Why Me?  (Read 22935 times)

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Offline speedy

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Here is one reason why I am here:

I look at what our central banking masters do: they bring interest rates artificially low so that debt is good and savings are bad. They incentive everyone to go into debt for 25+ years with the allure of home ownership, and the system they set up of new money though loans virtually guarantees that prices go up, so you have no choice but to play their game if you ever want a house. They have convinced everyone that they need to become a slave. And then all the old people are sitting in their £million houses that they bought for peanuts, feeling good that young people who are starting their working lives will be forced to prop up the ponzi scheme by going into debt to get a bike shed, whilst simultaneously paying 50% of their salary in tax.

So yeah I would like to the system collapse. But that can only happen if there is an asset that is so deflationary that the market cap goes up in billions consistently year on year. Then it will naturally grab so much attention that everyone will relax in the knowledge that their savings are safe and appreciating in value by way more then pumped up houses ever will. Then voila, no one will feel pressured to go into debt again. That for me is financial freedom.

Bitcoin's design flaws (mining) mean that it will never accomplish this. It needs to be profitable to really threaten the financial system. The Bank of England even said that Bitcoin could pose a threat, but they dont think it can win enough users (I agree with them 100% here):
http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2014/sep/11/bitcoin-threat-financial-stability-uk-bank-of-england

This fantasy probably has plot holes.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2015, 11:16:44 pm by speedy »

Xeldal

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I'm here because BitShares can absolutely transform the way society functions, because we can render existing structures of control obsolete, because we have a chance to rewrite the rules of the game.

BitShares is a socio-political pioneer species in the present day wasteland of fractured communities, failed states, wars: both financial, physical, digital, and extending into the realm of thought itself.  We are among the first in a whole new species of organism, which holds the potential to restore balance.

I recognize that BitShares must provide valuable services, and be profitable, to continue growing and developing.  And although I know there are a number of community members who share the vision of life, liberty, and property for all... I often feel a great mist shrouds the eyes of many into confusing the marker with the game, as they seem primarily focused on profit alone.

Everyone has their own reasons for being here, and I see no reason why we can't all succeed in our aims together.

The financial world, the exchanges; these are currently churning through trillions, and it would likely benefit us to capture even a fraction of this, but personally I'm focused on other applications, other use-cases, and don't have a whole lot of interest in this arena, though I do think there's enormous potential in capturing this energy for other developments, as economic jiu jitsu, to power all manner of other projects.  However if we gain the world only to lose our soul, then we will have lost.

I generally feel that everyone is severely underestimating the population of the planet which is ready to throw off it's chains and turn a new page in human history.  These are the people I intend to reach, and the tools are almost there.

We can make BitShares better, and provide for a multitude of use cases.  As to the fee debate, my only desire is that I wish there were an elegant solution for providing regional fee scaling so countries like China, and the US, could be on a more level playing field.  Everyone would benefit.
+5%

I'm still here because of the original vision though i do feel i have lost sight of it.  Bitshares can provide the tools that will create the new systems of immutable freedom of voluntary cooperation that will be crucial in bringing about a new system of control that is localized squarely with the individual.  I am whole heatedly on board for the ideas of civil disobedience and I see the state or government as the largest obstacle to a free and prosperous, peaceful society.  The state is the biggest instrument of organized crime.  It does nothing to protect any of us from anything.   Any effort to bow to state demands or regulations personally I feel is a shame and a waste of otherwise valiant efforts.  Though I completely understand the desire for cookie cuter, safe, draw within the state approved lines avenue its just not moves me personally, not what I'm here for.  I'm sure we can all make some money playing into the hands of the ruling class but that is not my core motivation for being here and ultimately a far greater opportunity lies outside these lines. 

I think we've made great progress and built a monster of a platform.  The exchange is a great feature but my heart pulls for greater ambitions and I'd be thrilled to see a wider scope and renewed focus on the core principles that brought me here.

Offline Akado

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Luckybit I don't understand what your post has to do with what I said. I dont understand what it has to do with the risk people want to take or not.

My point is:
Money/profit > more feature implementation > bigger potential for liberty/privacy > Objective accomplished

If we decide to implement those features now or short term:
No profit/money > no more features/incomplete set of features > no liberty/privacy > objective wont be accomplished

It was to simply recognize that optimizing the exchange business is a short-term strategy for a larger long-term goal.

Now that I agree and is what i've been trying to say.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2015, 11:03:03 pm by Akado »
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Offline bytemaster

The purpose of this post wasn't to change any short-term direction. It was to simply recognize that optimizing the exchange business is a short-term strategy for a larger long-term goal.

There are so many choices for future work / direction that failure to take stock of product / market fit can be a disaster. 
For the latest updates checkout my blog: http://bytemaster.bitshares.org
Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract between myself and anyone else.   These are merely my opinions and I reserve the right to change them at any time.

Offline luckybit

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My thinking is exactly the opposite. What core users need to secure their liberty is profit at the moment. So you can eventually add all the features they need and even create something new and better that is non existent at the moment. With no profit you can't secure the liberty you (and all of us I guess) want so much. The features you want to implement are directly dependent on whether BitShares is profitable or not. No profit means people won't vote for expensive feature implementation.

Maybe the core users would vote for this and stay loyal to the end, but most of the user's won't approve of this if they see the amount of BitShares continually increasing in order to fund non profitable features. That's the problem. People chase money. While you need to think on core users, you need to think on the rest simply because without them BitShares has way less chance of succeeding. I'm not saying they're right or not. I'm just saying you need to take that into consideration. You spook them, they go away, BitShares' chances decrease. You need to consider the masses and the influence they might have on the future of BitShares or not, because without them you won't have the money for the features and liberty you want to achieve. The core users won't pay for all the features for sure, they dont have the money. Masses do. This means - unfortunately - that you depend on them to achieve liberty.

People should be free to take on the level and kinds of risk they want to. At the same time the consequences have to be compartmentalized.

It means how you choose to use or abuse the app is up to you. Different people will use the features in different ways, and of course there will be protesters using Bitshares just as they use Twitter. The point is to allow protesters a way to use it which doesn't bring increased risk to everyone else.

If people want to do tax protests then they are free to do that but then they have to accept the consequence that they could lose their money. At the same time Bitshares has to be able to weather the storm when people inevitably do stuff like that if it is to survive.

Profit in my opinion is important for financial independence. If you can't profit you can't have financial independence. The anti-government stance in my opinion is not necessary for financial independence, because you really only need to profit in a way which doesn't require that you have a boss. For a lot of people just being able to profit without a boss, and be financially independent, is enough of a protest.

For others who take to take on the government or who are in countries where they have to, then they should also have the tools to protest. The point is to make sure everyone knows the level of risk they are under when using different features, at any given time.


Principles I would like to endorse.

1. Every participant should be able to select the level and nature of the risks they are willing to take and the app should make this easier.
2. Every participant who decides on a course of action, should not impact the other participants who decide against that course of action. If a small group of participants decide to go the anti-government protest route then it should not negatively impact the participants who choose to follow the law, pay their taxes, and try to be left alone.

The right to be left alone is just as important as the right to protest I think.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2015, 03:02:57 am by luckybit »
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Offline lovejoy

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I'm here because BitShares can absolutely transform the way society functions, because we can render existing structures of control obsolete, because we have a chance to rewrite the rules of the game.

BitShares is a socio-political pioneer species in the present day wasteland of fractured communities, failed states, wars: both financial, physical, digital, and extending into the realm of thought itself.  We are among the first in a whole new species of organism, which holds the potential to restore balance.

I recognize that BitShares must provide valuable services, and be profitable, to continue growing and developing.  And although I know there are a number of community members who share the vision of life, liberty, and property for all... I often feel a great mist shrouds the eyes of many into confusing the marker with the game, as they seem primarily focused on profit alone.

Everyone has their own reasons for being here, and I see no reason why we can't all succeed in our aims together.

The financial world, the exchanges; these are currently churning through trillions, and it would likely benefit us to capture even a fraction of this, but personally I'm focused on other applications, other use-cases, and don't have a whole lot of interest in this arena, though I do think there's enormous potential in capturing this energy for other developments, as economic jiu jitsu, to power all manner of other projects.  However if we gain the world only to lose our soul, as they say, then we will have lost.

I generally feel that everyone is severely underestimating the population of the planet which is ready to throw off it's chains and turn a new page in human history.  These are the people I intend to reach, and the tools are almost there.

We can make BitShares better, and provide for a multitude of use cases.  As to the fee debate, my only desire is that I wish there were an elegant solution for providing regional fee scaling so citizens of countries like China, and the US, could be on a more level playing field.  Everyone would benefit.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2015, 10:55:06 pm by lovejoy »

Tuck Fheman

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Quote
This means that BitShares original reason for existence (to provide the decentralized exchange) in a world where Bitcoin is being cracked down upon is less and less relevant. Instead we are put in a situation of competing head-to-head with centralized exchanges which are trusted, fast, and legal.  In the process of attempting to attract "exchange users" who are ultimately just "speculators" we have lost sight of our original customer: the person who wants freedom from the financial system.

 +5%

Quote
The people interested in this particular market are few and far between (1% or less of the population), but they are passionate and desperate for tools and willing to try anything. These people are willing to pay significant money to gain their freedom.

 +5%

I'm just guessing here but I have to ask ... did you talk with Adam B. Levine recently? ;)

Have you seen all the headlines the past few days?  They are trying to blame the recent terror attacks on bitcoin and encryption...

Yep the wheels are moving faster and they have a very big vehicle. =/   I have neighbors who buy into every single bullshit word they hear on TV ... think I'm crazy for getting into Bitcoin and would probably call me a terrorist if I ever brought up encryption now they've heard that "terrorist" use it to communicate. I can only imagine the hit "Telegram" is taking from the recent news where they were basically called out as "the" terrorist platform for communication. Fucking sad days man. The boot is getting closer and closer to my face every goddamn day and so few of the people I know afk even see it or care. That's why I spend most of my time with the cryptocurrency ecosystem. I just hope it doesn't end up being the reason why I'm in a fricken re-education camp in a few years. The good news is they have one really close to my Dad's house so he can visit I guess. =/
« Last Edit: November 19, 2015, 10:48:10 pm by Tuck Fheman »

Offline luckybit

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While I agree with liberty, I don't endorse the "tax protest" part. I think the main danger or risk is not going to be from the government, it's going to come from cyber criminals who will find the rich list and then try to extort everyone on it. At that point the target list is going to be obvious, and the net worths for all to see, which puts people in danger not from the government, but from organized crime.

 +5%

The governments basically exist to manage risks. We need them because they reduce the risk of us getting killed in a terrorist attack, or being a victim of crime. At the same time if we can reduce those risks on our own, we can achieve security without the need for their services most of the time, then you can protest in a way which increases security for the protesters. The point is not to sacrifice liberty or security, but to try to increase both in the same app. Depending on how you use the app should determine what you're willing to sacrifice in order to gain something else.

http://www.brighthubpm.com/risk-management/88566-tool-for-assessing-project-risk/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Risk_Matrix

Any controversial feature in Bitshares should have a warning in red letters that using this feature can bring possible negative consequences. The users of these features in my opinion deserve fair warning. This means the people who decide to keep all their trading activities transparent need to know the latest news and or frequency of extortion. They might want to know for example that there have been multiple extortion attempts against Roger Verr simply because too many of the wrong people knew exactly how much money he was worth and in what form it was.

At the same time a feature like totally anonymous transactions can put the participant at the risk of being harassed by the government, not just the IRS, but various different agencies, and it should also be in big red letters. Total anonymity does not increase security, it brings risk, just as not enough privacy brings risk.

So the recommended way to do things I would say is to be partially transparent. It can be known who you trade with, and why. The amounts you trade on the other hand have to be hidden. If you do decide to be anonymous it should at least be possible to have enough information to prove your innocence if you are harassed. You need a way to show you were not part of the conspiracy, and because the blockchain isn't transparent this responsibility will rest entirely on you, so you would have to expect to receive a knock on the door or some questions.

Every controversial feature has benefits and risks. The user needs to be made aware of the benefits and risks, and needs to know how to use these features responsibly so that they can have the optimal amount of liberty. As Bytemaster once said about decentralization, there is a sweet spot and if you have too much it can actually reduce your efficiency, but if you don't have enough then you're not resilient.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2015, 10:40:30 pm by luckybit »
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Offline monsterer

While I agree with liberty, I don't endorse the "tax protest" part. I think the main danger or risk is not going to be from the government, it's going to come from cyber criminals who will find the rich list and then try to extort everyone on it. At that point the target list is going to be obvious, and the net worths for all to see, which puts people in danger not from the government, but from organized crime.

 +5%
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Offline luckybit

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Quote
1. Their activity is too public, easily tracked, and their profits/losses easily reported to the various taxing agencies. In this sense BitShares is contributing to enslavement.
2.  Attempting to do commerce with untrusted parties is still difficult (lack of simple escrow and dispute resolution).
3.  Lack of tools for building reputations, bonding users, etc
4.  Lack of tools to support and encourage civil disobedience and peaceful tax protests

While I agree with liberty, I don't endorse the "tax protest" part. I think the main danger or risk is not going to be from the government, it's going to come from cyber criminals who will find the rich list and then try to extort everyone on it. At that point the target list is going to be obvious, and the net worths for all to see, which puts people in danger not from the government, but from organized crime.

So basically while I agree with implementing privacy I think you have to market it more objectively. In a world without privacy everyone will be a victim to organized crime because anonymous currencies are going to exist regardless of if we want them to or not and privacy  has to be used to increase the ability of the property owner to secure ownership of his or her property.

As for tax protesting and the IRS, I don't support tax evasion. It's better to pay the taxes in terms of lowering risks, than to not pay them. I'm talking about it from a risk perspective and not from an ideological or passion perspective. From a risk perspective, there should always be an option available for people who would like to lower their risk in a certain area or way, but if people want to increase their risks then that option should be open to them but it should probably not be directly connected to Bitshares because not every user wants to protest in high risk ways.

On reputation, on financial independence, I pretty much agree, because both lead to liberty, but both don't break any laws or increase the risks associated with using Bitshares. It's part of the job of developers to lower the risks the participants have to take to use Bitshares, so the design has to in my opinion be approached in such a way that the user is always free to accept or limit the amount of legal risk or any other kind of security risk they take.

So if a participant wants to be totally transparent, then they risk being targeted for extortion if they have a net worth too high. No reason to even mention the government because not everyone is more afraid of the taxman than they are of the local warlord, mafia or gang. On the other hand if a participant wants to be made safe just from the local mafia, gang or extortionist, they need to be able to program Bitshares to report to the tax agency and only to the tax agency, but not to anyone else, and only to report what is necessary to reduce their risk of an audit.

Can we have pursue liberty in the most intelligent ways possible? Can we manage risk for participants while also allowing participants to safely protest? Can we allow some participants to take more risks than others? We have to remember not all participants are in the same boat, not all have the same stuff to lose, and while everyone willing to take part in this experiment is taking risks, I do think we should take a risk based approach to determining design of certain features, or let the participants for example select the level of risk.

I'm not against KYC or AML, I'm not against paying taxes, but it's not because I always agree with the actions of my government or that I think the money is always well spent. The reason is because it reduces the risk of government interfering negatively in my life if I go along with the rules rather than if I don't. It's a matter of risk and consequence.

When it comes to privacy, the sort of privacy which lowers your risk with the least consequence is the programmable kind. The more you can configure it, the more you have access control, and access control is ultimately all privacy is. So if you determine the IRS can access your records but no one else, that should be an option, but if you determine not even the IRS can access your records, then you're protesting, and you should be able to make that decision if you're willing to accept the consequences. The point is the consequences faced by the tax protester have to be isolated and separated from the rest of the Bitshares network, in essence compartmentalize the consequences.


« Last Edit: November 19, 2015, 10:28:50 pm by luckybit »
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Offline monsterer

bitUSD!

Decentralised, price stable, fiat tracking cryptocurrencies is bitshares core product and raison d'etre.
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clout

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If there is a robust trading engine which will attract an exchange business, and if that is simple enough to create from the point we're at now, then please do it. We are most of the way there already.

From there, more possibilities will open up. I think that the WHY will have far more support behind it and that the community will be able to do far more with it if there problems and make a better world.

 +5%

I respect all the work you and your team has contributed to the project, however, the constant shifting sands is one of the reasons people have left our ecosystem.   Let's get a stable decentralized exchange, great APIs, clean wallet to take advantage of our amazing smartcoins first.   Let's have a piece of the project we can show that doesn't take a PhD in economics or computer science to understand.

Once that liquidity starts coming in, all those other points make sense to me. Stay the course.

I agree with these points. I'm a little confused at the purpose of this post. The WHY is very important to keep in context, and I don't think anyone's lost sight of that. Most important now is determining the HOW. Bitshares is at a very pivotal point. This project could very well fail and with it extinguish this vision of freedom that you have conceived. To ensure that it doesn't, we need to be concerned about generating greater usership, even more mainstream adoption, because the more people that we have utilizing these tools the more people will begin to exercise their capacity for choice, and the stronger we will collectively be. That means that we have to decide upon the fee schedule, that means we have to provide a competitive exchange experience. All these things are important in order to ultimately reach the WHY. The debates around these aspects of operation and the consensus generated from all coincide with realizing the WHY.


Offline Akado

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I agree with your speech on the part that when BitShares has those core features and has attracted the users that indeed, seek liberty and their right to privacy, those users will never leave BitShares again and will stay loyal. I have no doubt about that. However on the following part

These profits will come eventually, but in the short term we need to ask ourselves what "features" do our core users actually need to secure their liberty?


My thinking is exactly the opposite. What core users need to secure their liberty is profit at the moment. So you can eventually add all the features they need and even create something new and better that is non existent at the moment. With no profit you can't secure the liberty you (and all of us I guess) want so much. The features you want to implement are directly dependent on whether BitShares is profitable or not. No profit means people won't vote for expensive feature implementation.

Maybe the core users would vote for this and stay loyal to the end, but most of the user's won't approve of this if they see the amount of BitShares continually increasing in order to fund non profitable features. That's the problem. People chase money. While you need to think on core users, you need to think on the rest simply because without them BitShares has way less chance of succeeding. I'm not saying they're right or not. I'm just saying you need to take that into consideration. You spook them, they go away, BitShares' chances decrease. You need to consider the masses and the influence they might have on the future of BitShares or not, because without them you won't have the money for the features and liberty you want to achieve. The core users won't pay for all the features for sure, they dont have the money. Masses do. This means - unfortunately - that you depend on them to achieve liberty.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2015, 10:02:13 pm by Akado »
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TravelsAsia

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If there is a robust trading engine which will attract an exchange business, and if that is simple enough to create from the point we're at now, then please do it. We are most of the way there already.

From there, more possibilities will open up. I think that the WHY will have far more support behind it and that the community will be able to do far more with it if there problems and make a better world.

 +5%

I respect all the work you and your team has contributed to the project, however, the constant shifting sands is one of the reasons people have left our ecosystem.   Let's get a stable decentralized exchange, great APIs, clean wallet to take advantage of our amazing smartcoins first.   Let's have a piece of the project we can show that doesn't take a PhD in economics or computer science to understand.

Once that liquidity starts coming in, all those other points make sense to me. Stay the course.

Offline clayop

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We are so so close to getting this right.  Please don't change the plan before:

1.Trading fees are updated
2.Referral trading fees are possible
3.API for 3rd parties is ready.

Aren't your 1 and 2 nearly covered?  The big one there is #3?  But that's not hard one right?
#1 is not covered yet.
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