Author Topic: Why are we Here? Why BitShares? Why this community? Why Me?  (Read 10011 times)

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Offline luckybit

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Re: Why are we Here? Why BitShares? Why this community? Why Me?
« Reply #15 on: November 19, 2015, 10:51:44 pm »
My thinking is exactly the opposite. What core users need to secure their liberty is profit at the moment. So you can eventually add all the features they need and even create something new and better that is non existent at the moment. With no profit you can't secure the liberty you (and all of us I guess) want so much. The features you want to implement are directly dependent on whether BitShares is profitable or not. No profit means people won't vote for expensive feature implementation.

Maybe the core users would vote for this and stay loyal to the end, but most of the user's won't approve of this if they see the amount of BitShares continually increasing in order to fund non profitable features. That's the problem. People chase money. While you need to think on core users, you need to think on the rest simply because without them BitShares has way less chance of succeeding. I'm not saying they're right or not. I'm just saying you need to take that into consideration. You spook them, they go away, BitShares' chances decrease. You need to consider the masses and the influence they might have on the future of BitShares or not, because without them you won't have the money for the features and liberty you want to achieve. The core users won't pay for all the features for sure, they dont have the money. Masses do. This means - unfortunately - that you depend on them to achieve liberty.

People should be free to take on the level and kinds of risk they want to. At the same time the consequences have to be compartmentalized.

It means how you choose to use or abuse the app is up to you. Different people will use the features in different ways, and of course there will be protesters using Bitshares just as they use Twitter. The point is to allow protesters a way to use it which doesn't bring increased risk to everyone else.

If people want to do tax protests then they are free to do that but then they have to accept the consequence that they could lose their money. At the same time Bitshares has to be able to weather the storm when people inevitably do stuff like that if it is to survive.

Profit in my opinion is important for financial independence. If you can't profit you can't have financial independence. The anti-government stance in my opinion is not necessary for financial independence, because you really only need to profit in a way which doesn't require that you have a boss. For a lot of people just being able to profit without a boss, and be financially independent, is enough of a protest.

For others who take to take on the government or who are in countries where they have to, then they should also have the tools to protest. The point is to make sure everyone knows the level of risk they are under when using different features, at any given time.


Principles I would like to endorse.

1. Every participant should be able to select the level and nature of the risks they are willing to take and the app should make this easier.
2. Every participant who decides on a course of action, should not impact the other participants who decide against that course of action. If a small group of participants decide to go the anti-government protest route then it should not negatively impact the participants who choose to follow the law, pay their taxes, and try to be left alone.

The right to be left alone is just as important as the right to protest I think.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2015, 03:02:57 am by luckybit »
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Offline bytemaster

Re: Why are we Here? Why BitShares? Why this community? Why Me?
« Reply #16 on: November 19, 2015, 10:58:21 pm »
The purpose of this post wasn't to change any short-term direction. It was to simply recognize that optimizing the exchange business is a short-term strategy for a larger long-term goal.

There are so many choices for future work / direction that failure to take stock of product / market fit can be a disaster. 
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Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract between myself and anyone else.   These are merely my opinions and I reserve the right to change them at any time.

Offline Akado

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Re: Why are we Here? Why BitShares? Why this community? Why Me?
« Reply #17 on: November 19, 2015, 11:01:09 pm »
Luckybit I don't understand what your post has to do with what I said. I dont understand what it has to do with the risk people want to take or not.

My point is:
Money/profit > more feature implementation > bigger potential for liberty/privacy > Objective accomplished

If we decide to implement those features now or short term:
No profit/money > no more features/incomplete set of features > no liberty/privacy > objective wont be accomplished

It was to simply recognize that optimizing the exchange business is a short-term strategy for a larger long-term goal.

Now that I agree and is what i've been trying to say.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2015, 11:03:03 pm by Akado »
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Xeldal

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Re: Why are we Here? Why BitShares? Why this community? Why Me?
« Reply #18 on: November 19, 2015, 11:09:53 pm »
I'm here because BitShares can absolutely transform the way society functions, because we can render existing structures of control obsolete, because we have a chance to rewrite the rules of the game.

BitShares is a socio-political pioneer species in the present day wasteland of fractured communities, failed states, wars: both financial, physical, digital, and extending into the realm of thought itself.  We are among the first in a whole new species of organism, which holds the potential to restore balance.

I recognize that BitShares must provide valuable services, and be profitable, to continue growing and developing.  And although I know there are a number of community members who share the vision of life, liberty, and property for all... I often feel a great mist shrouds the eyes of many into confusing the marker with the game, as they seem primarily focused on profit alone.

Everyone has their own reasons for being here, and I see no reason why we can't all succeed in our aims together.

The financial world, the exchanges; these are currently churning through trillions, and it would likely benefit us to capture even a fraction of this, but personally I'm focused on other applications, other use-cases, and don't have a whole lot of interest in this arena, though I do think there's enormous potential in capturing this energy for other developments, as economic jiu jitsu, to power all manner of other projects.  However if we gain the world only to lose our soul, then we will have lost.

I generally feel that everyone is severely underestimating the population of the planet which is ready to throw off it's chains and turn a new page in human history.  These are the people I intend to reach, and the tools are almost there.

We can make BitShares better, and provide for a multitude of use cases.  As to the fee debate, my only desire is that I wish there were an elegant solution for providing regional fee scaling so countries like China, and the US, could be on a more level playing field.  Everyone would benefit.
+5%

I'm still here because of the original vision though i do feel i have lost sight of it.  Bitshares can provide the tools that will create the new systems of immutable freedom of voluntary cooperation that will be crucial in bringing about a new system of control that is localized squarely with the individual.  I am whole heatedly on board for the ideas of civil disobedience and I see the state or government as the largest obstacle to a free and prosperous, peaceful society.  The state is the biggest instrument of organized crime.  It does nothing to protect any of us from anything.   Any effort to bow to state demands or regulations personally I feel is a shame and a waste of otherwise valiant efforts.  Though I completely understand the desire for cookie cuter, safe, draw within the state approved lines avenue its just not moves me personally, not what I'm here for.  I'm sure we can all make some money playing into the hands of the ruling class but that is not my core motivation for being here and ultimately a far greater opportunity lies outside these lines. 

I think we've made great progress and built a monster of a platform.  The exchange is a great feature but my heart pulls for greater ambitions and I'd be thrilled to see a wider scope and renewed focus on the core principles that brought me here.

Offline speedy

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Re: Why are we Here? Why BitShares? Why this community? Why Me?
« Reply #19 on: November 19, 2015, 11:11:46 pm »
Here is one reason why I am here:

I look at what our central banking masters do: they bring interest rates artificially low so that debt is good and savings are bad. They incentive everyone to go into debt for 25+ years with the allure of home ownership, and the system they set up of new money though loans virtually guarantees that prices go up, so you have no choice but to play their game if you ever want a house. They have convinced everyone that they need to become a slave. And then all the old people are sitting in their £million houses that they bought for peanuts, feeling good that young people who are starting their working lives will be forced to prop up the ponzi scheme by going into debt to get a bike shed, whilst simultaneously paying 50% of their salary in tax.

So yeah I would like to the system collapse. But that can only happen if there is an asset that is so deflationary that the market cap goes up in billions consistently year on year. Then it will naturally grab so much attention that everyone will relax in the knowledge that their savings are safe and appreciating in value by way more then pumped up houses ever will. Then voila, no one will feel pressured to go into debt again. That for me is financial freedom.

Bitcoin's design flaws (mining) mean that it will never accomplish this. It needs to be profitable to really threaten the financial system. The Bank of England even said that Bitcoin could pose a threat, but they dont think it can win enough users (I agree with them 100% here):
http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2014/sep/11/bitcoin-threat-financial-stability-uk-bank-of-england

This fantasy probably has plot holes.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2015, 11:16:44 pm by speedy »

Offline Ben Mason

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Re: Why are we Here? Why BitShares? Why this community? Why Me?
« Reply #20 on: November 19, 2015, 11:13:45 pm »
BM there has never been a greater need for a decentralised exchange.....the risks presented by centralised exchanges and private blockchains are increasing, not decreasing.  Any regulation that occurs that appears favourable to blockchain tech is there to act as a brake to innovation and give entrenched interests time to recover the initiative.  Corruption occurs over time and will inevitably occur even with currently honest services....the point of BitShares is that it resists corruption over time, because every design decision is the best it can be at ensuring that. So corruption resistance, appropriate economic incentives, usability then marketing.

I agree with many sentiments written here. We have the technological and philosophical foundation, an incredible, forged community, hardened over the fire of the last year. Now we need to polish what we have, make everything as useable as possible, then reasses.

You are an inspiration and it is right to question our objectives and progress.....this time we must hold the line and get something working absolutely right before moving on.  How else can we make a rational assessment of how far we've come?

Offline luckybit

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Re: Why are we Here? Why BitShares? Why this community? Why Me?
« Reply #21 on: November 19, 2015, 11:17:32 pm »
The purpose of this post wasn't to change any short-term direction. It was to simply recognize that optimizing the exchange business is a short-term strategy for a larger long-term goal.

There are so many choices for future work / direction that failure to take stock of product / market fit can be a disaster.

Was your post in response to the "Security Panic" we see from governments and individuals who are blaming encryption for the terrorist attacks?

Risk based approach to policy would say that because the odds of dying in a terrorist attack are something like 20,000,000 to 1, and the odds of being struct by lightening or getting in a car accident are much higher, the probability should set the policies rather than emotions.

Unfortunately I think a lot of politicians and people in law enforcement wait for a terrorist attack to push for policies they've been trying to push for years. Backdoors in encryption which would make us all less secure, or banning encryption, these policies aren't based on the statistics. The danger from a terrorist attack doesn't quantatatively justify the level of sacrifice to civil liberties they are demanding.

If the situation were different and suddenly terrorist attacks were becoming much more frequent, with much higher death tolls, then I would understand their policies and crack downs, but so far no terrorist attack that I know of has been directly funded primarily by Bitcoin, or any cryptocurrency, and as far as I know terrorists have always had encryption and value transfer.

Hawala has existed for a long time. And encryption itself was invented in the regions which are now involved in terrorist attacks. If we look at any of the World Wars or the Cold War then we find encryption was used. Law enforcement never before had the ability to decrypt everything and monitor everyone, and in war the NSA is supposed to have those capabilities.

My conclusion is that for the most part it's political. Any time when decisions are made in the heat of them moment, where emotions are high, then you could get less than rational policies and outcomes.  This isn't to say that ISIS can't hurt us or that there is no risk at all, but more that the reactions and threat of a crackdown are not rational because their own documents say so.

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/468210/UK_NRA_October_2015_final_web.pdf

So when marketing certain features, it should be known that:

http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2015/03/youre-55-times-likely-killed-police-officer-terrorist.html
http://www.globalresearch.ca/the-terrorism-statistics-every-american-needs-to-hear/5382818

The statistics reveal the true security situation. If the statistics don't show an increasing risk, maybe it's imagined.
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Offline luckybit

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Re: Why are we Here? Why BitShares? Why this community? Why Me?
« Reply #22 on: November 19, 2015, 11:28:06 pm »
Luckybit I don't understand what your post has to do with what I said. I dont understand what it has to do with the risk people want to take or not.

My point is:
Money/profit > more feature implementation > bigger potential for liberty/privacy > Objective accomplished

If we decide to implement those features now or short term:
No profit/money > no more features/incomplete set of features > no liberty/privacy > objective wont be accomplished

It was to simply recognize that optimizing the exchange business is a short-term strategy for a larger long-term goal.

Now that I agree and is what i've been trying to say.

We basically agree but my opinion is, features must take into account "risks" that Bitshares participants may inherit. When it comes to anonymous currency, that is inevitable, but it also brings risks.

On the other hand not having privacy brings risks. What that means is you have to mitigate and manage the risks to produce security in an ecosystem. If you don't want law enforcement to do it then you have to self regulate and build it into the design of your app.

I think we all agree on financial independence. Once we diverge from that and start going into other stuff like tax protests or controversial features, then people begin to divide and I don't think that is a good thing because it marginalizes a potentially large community.

Everyone can agree that financial independence is good. Whether you love the government or hate the government, not having to depend on the government as much isn't exactly a bad thing. But Bitshares is in my opinion no where near that point, as it has to be profitable as a decentralized exchange, and people who participate have to be financially independent in order for people to believe a blockchain can hire people and put them in a financially independent state.

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Offline bytemaster

Re: Why are we Here? Why BitShares? Why this community? Why Me?
« Reply #23 on: November 19, 2015, 11:38:28 pm »
This post was not motivated by any external news (I wasn't aware Bitcoin was being blamed for recent terrorist activities).  I posted this as a reminder to everyone (and myself) of why we are here.

It is good to see the solid feedback of the users that are here. Philosophy builds loyalty. Loyalty creates hoarders. Hoarders create demand. Demand increases prices.

Profits bring those motivated by "greed" and greed brings short-term thinking. Short term thinking will not get us out of a long-term hole.
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Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract between myself and anyone else.   These are merely my opinions and I reserve the right to change them at any time.

38PTSWarrior

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Re: Why are we Here? Why BitShares? Why this community? Why Me?
« Reply #24 on: November 19, 2015, 11:42:44 pm »
I am here because I want an alternative to government.
BitShares because of your talent and ideas for a better world bytemaster.
I believe that the basic fee settings cannot be that bad so I don't care about changing them.


Offline luckybit

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Re: Why are we Here? Why BitShares? Why this community? Why Me?
« Reply #25 on: November 19, 2015, 11:47:28 pm »
This post was not motivated by any external news (I wasn't aware Bitcoin was being blamed for recent terrorist activities).  I posted this as a reminder to everyone (and myself) of why we are here.

It is good to see the solid feedback of the users that are here. Philosophy builds loyalty. Loyalty creates hoarders. Hoarders create demand. Demand increases prices.

Profits bring those motivated by "greed" and greed brings short-term thinking. Short term thinking will not get us out of a long-term hole.

I agree, I just think we have to be careful in how we frame the concepts in the philosophy. We want a big tent, and I think financial independence is a huge tent.

Here is an example of a demographic that would benefit from Bitshares but that might be scared away by the libertarian presentation:
http://ieet.org/index.php/IEET/more/danaher20151103
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rvpTmiVhcxU

What is a post work world? A world with more financial independence? In the end a lot of people, maybe even the vast majority, do not like their jobs, to have to work for a boss, and most don't know what it means to own property. Property ownership is often misunderstood and perceived as some sort of "greed", but at the same time it's a path to financial independence.

Crowd funding in my opinion will make this very clear to the masses. I do think Bitshares can attract the masses once more people understand that they can actually own stocks and that it's not just for rich people but when only half the population own stocks, it's hard to make a case. Bitshares would allow gamers to trade video game items and learn about property ownership, these might be just teenagers, but they might not be able to buy stocks through a broker, but it still would be beneficial to them if they can have the same access as adults.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2015, 12:01:51 am by luckybit »
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Offline puppies

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Re: Why are we Here? Why BitShares? Why this community? Why Me?
« Reply #26 on: November 19, 2015, 11:48:00 pm »
This has been a great reminder Bytemaster.  We all need to ensure that we don't lose sight of what we are trying to accomplish.  I am glad to see the motivations of my fellow BitSharerers.  I am, as I often am very happy to be a part of this great community.


I'm still here because of the original vision though i do feel i have lost sight of it.  Bitshares can provide the tools that will create the new systems of immutable freedom of voluntary cooperation that will be crucial in bringing about a new system of control that is localized squarely with the individual.  I am whole heatedly on board for the ideas of civil disobedience and I see the state or government as the largest obstacle to a free and prosperous, peaceful society.  The state is the biggest instrument of organized crime.  It does nothing to protect any of us from anything.   Any effort to bow to state demands or regulations personally I feel is a shame and a waste of otherwise valiant efforts.  Though I completely understand the desire for cookie cuter, safe, draw within the state approved lines avenue its just not moves me personally, not what I'm here for.  I'm sure we can all make some money playing into the hands of the ruling class but that is not my core motivation for being here and ultimately a far greater opportunity lies outside these lines. 

I think we've made great progress and built a monster of a platform.  The exchange is a great feature but my heart pulls for greater ambitions and I'd be thrilled to see a wider scope and renewed focus on the core principles that brought me here.

Well said Xeldal
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Offline Empirical1.2

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Re: Why are we Here? Why BitShares? Why this community? Why Me?
« Reply #27 on: November 19, 2015, 11:55:53 pm »
I'm a little confused at the purpose of this post.

The reason/purpose for this post imo, is that not many in the community were supportive of the stealth transfers workers proposal - https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php/topic,20104.0.html

It's a repeated behaviour pattern that occurs when BM wants to direct his focus to something but the community/shareholders would prefer him to work on something else.

When his currently preferred direction deviates from the community, it  results in him questioning his reasons for being here, as he is more of a creative leader than an employee. If he is unsuccessful at shifting short term focus to the above proposal, then the stakes are usually raised.
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Offline GaltReport

Re: Why are we Here? Why BitShares? Why this community? Why Me?
« Reply #28 on: November 19, 2015, 11:59:00 pm »
The purpose of this post wasn't to change any short-term direction. It was to simply recognize that optimizing the exchange business is a short-term strategy for a larger long-term goal.
...

Yes,  it's low hanging fruit but by all means, we should PICK IT!

Offline rgcrypto

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Re: Why are we Here? Why BitShares? Why this community? Why Me?
« Reply #29 on: November 20, 2015, 12:05:26 am »
WHY is the source of motivation. The reason why people don't do something that we know is good for them is because they don't have a strong enough reason to...not a powerful enough why.

Look at DOGE coin. The reason is: Because it's fun!

Why am I here, Why BitShares?

The reason why is because this project was built upon a mission: To Secure Life, Liberty and Property. 
Knowing that people rallied around that idea, built a community and an amazing technology is something that keep me around.

Also, I find amazing that I have an opportunity to invest in businesses that believe the same thing (OBITS, METAFEES, etc.)
It's a community of bright and forward thinking entrepreneurs.

Another powerful WHY is that I would like to see this tech replace FOREX and NASDAQ. People from all around the world being able to jump in the game without having to go through expensive 3rd party.