BIT20 Smartcoin, top 20 cryptos weighted index (ETF like)

[Empirical1.2]

I think if you want to stick to the "best" 20 crypto's you should use the first 20 with the biggest volume NOT the 20 with the  biggest marketcap.... because we will see many shitcoins on the list very often....

I support this point. Market cap is a bad measure of performance. Issue trillions of shit coins and get #1 market cap. Look at ripple for example. Trade volume is the only good way to evaluate crypto token performance.

trade volume is also easily faked

It depends what exchanges you reference I guess. You can't fake volume very easily/for very long when you're paying 0.2% per trade can you?

(Coinmarketcap for example excludes the BTC exchanges with no fees from their calculations http://coinmarketcap.com/currencies/bitcoin/#markets )

You can't fake volume very easily/for very long when you're paying 0.2% per trade can you?

except you are the exchange owner... so the fees come back to you...

That's why I first consider the MC, because it's the only thing you can't fake. The only way to manipulate the MC is by pouring your money in the coin ;p

A lot of cryptos claim to have X supply on the market but you can't be sure they really distributed them, so their market cap is inflated but this is often obvious by their much lower volume.

(As an extreme example, have an ICO for 100 million coins, raise 100 BTC but 99.9 BTC actually came anonymously from you. Now there's only 100 000 coins on the market you don't own. Building their price up to $1 a coin would be fairly cheap and now your DAC/Coin would be valued at $100 million, but it would be clear your market cap is inflated because of the low volume.)

See any atm that shouldn't be included in a credible BIT10 ETF? 

[EstefanTT]

wanted to chime in, too

very interesting project, I will also update the bts_tools package to publish this feed and will publish it myself once I get around to do it. At the moment, I'm right in the middle of a refactoring + adding support for steem, so it'll take a couple more weeks I imagine, but you can count me in!

Thanks !!! I will !

I guess we won't wait much more. The script is in the Mindphlux hands

This is just quick solution to avoid more delays. I have something better in the pipeline for publishing the price in a completely decentralised way but alowing me to add easily more code in the index revision system if needed without having to update the scripts with all the witnesses everytime.



Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk

can't wait to buy some!!! 

So do I.

I think is a nice investment.
You can let your money grow smoothly over the years.
I don't think the buyers market will be a problem. It will be a little tricky to get shorters shorting at a decent price. But I think that if the liquidity grows on one side, it would eventually grow on the other

Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk

[liondani]

wanted to chime in, too

very interesting project, I will also update the bts_tools package to publish this feed and will publish it myself once I get around to do it. At the moment, I'm right in the middle of a refactoring + adding support for steem, so it'll take a couple more weeks I imagine, but you can count me in!

Thanks !!! I will !

I guess we won't wait much more. The script is in the Mindphlux hands

This is just quick solution to avoid more delays. I have something better in the pipeline for publishing the price in a completely decentralised way but alowing me to add easily more code in the index revision system if needed without having to update the scripts with all the witnesses everytime.



Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk

can't wait to buy some!!! 

[EstefanTT]

wanted to chime in, too

very interesting project, I will also update the bts_tools package to publish this feed and will publish it myself once I get around to do it. At the moment, I'm right in the middle of a refactoring + adding support for steem, so it'll take a couple more weeks I imagine, but you can count me in!

Thanks !!! I will !

I guess we won't wait much more. The script is in the Mindphlux hands

This is just quick solution to avoid more delays. I have something better in the pipeline for publishing the price in a completely decentralised way but alowing me to add easily more code in the index revision system if needed without having to update the scripts with all the witnesses everytime.



Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk

[hcf27]

Can´t wait!

[Musewhale]

great!
good idea!
i like this!
just do it!
 

[Valentin | Lin9uxis]

 +5

Just to keep you in touch guys, I finally found a way to produce to price feed. I had a lot of problems but it should work very soon.

I set up un python script from xeroc with the value of the index from my website and mindphlux kindly agreed to run it.

As soon as mindphlux find the time to test and run it, if there is no more unexpected problems, the index should be alive and ready to be trade.

I will start a new official thread for Bittwenty as soon as the feed price is updated. The web site is also done and is just wainting to be made official.




Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk

 

[wackou]

wanted to chime in, too

very interesting project, I will also update the bts_tools package to publish this feed and will publish it myself once I get around to do it. At the moment, I'm right in the middle of a refactoring + adding support for steem, so it'll take a couple more weeks I imagine, but you can count me in!

[EstefanTT]

Just to keep you in touch guys, I finally found a way to produce to price feed. I had a lot of problems but it should work very soon.

I set up un python script from xeroc with the value of the index from my website and mindphlux kindly agreed to run it.

As soon as mindphlux find the time to test and run it, if there is no more unexpected problems, the index should be alive and ready to be trade.

I will start a new official thread for Bittwenty as soon as the feed price is updated. The web site is also done and is just wainting to be made official.




Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk

[karnal]

Xeroc, HCF27 and Valentin has been helping big deal !

Thanks guys !

I'm probably almost there, a little more patience ...

Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk

[merivercap]

   I like the idea of a crypto-basket ETF!

[EstefanTT]

Xeroc, HCF27 and Valentin has been helping big deal !

Thanks guys !

I'm probably almost there, a little more patience ...

Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk

[EstefanTT]

@EstefanTT got an Ubuntu machine set up for this project, I think he has website ready and he was in the process of pushing the feed price to the testnet...

Lets create a telegram group for this project, so that any1 with coding skills can help out

So do I !!! My old netbook is now running ubuntu 15.10 and, as I couldn't run the script, I'm also about to have my good laptop dual boot with linux to run more tests.

Also looking for a cheap VPS to test this feed price.

Well, in two words, I almost there ... since last week ... Lol

Telegram group would be cool but I'm not sure right now we have the public for that. A couple of and I create it right now !



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[EstefanTT]

IIRC, EstefannTT is experiencing some python related issues under windows ..
In essence, the GrapheneLibraries that are required to run feed scripts in python require some dependencies that seem to be difficult to deal with under windwos.

I would appreciate any kind of help here since i simply don't have a windows machine here

I'm not sure you received my private masseage on telegram ..

I erased an old netbook and install ubuntu 15.10 on it.

I follow the command on your github but the pricefeed_manual.py doesn't work.

I tried yesterday night and the whole day today but no luck ...

Valentin help me during more than an hour giving me commands to try in the terminal to instal git, autobahn, twisted, ... but it still show errors.

I just start a few days ago trying to undestand python and linux. I really don't know what to do to solve this.

I'm on my smartphone (outside) right now and I don't remember exactely what was the error. It was something about "cannot import the parseWsurl name' and another error about the dependecy missing python-autobhan (weird thing because I installed it and also checked I got it there with the last version)

Check your private telegram if you want the snapshot of my ubuntu screen.

I hope I can solve this, I'm more than a week on this issue ... Fingers crossed !!

Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk

[hcf27]

@EstefanTT got an Ubuntu machine set up for this project, I think he has website ready and he was in the process of pushing the feed price to the testnet...

Lets create a telegram group for this project, so that any1 with coding skills can help out

[Thom]

I would appreciate any kind of help here since i simply don't have a windows machine here

Just one more reason showing you're one smart dude 

[xeroc]

IIRC, EstefannTT is experiencing some python related issues under windows ..
In essence, the GrapheneLibraries that are required to run feed scripts in python require some dependencies that seem to be difficult to deal with under windwos.

I would appreciate any kind of help here since i simply don't have a windows machine here

[noisy]

any updates?

[EstefanTT]

Home page with BIT20 Vs FIAT10 : http://www.bitsharesfcx.com/bit20/homepage_fr.php
Individual crypto Vs the basket BIT20 : http://www.bitsharesfcx.com/bit20/graph_fr_4.php

broken link, scam feelings

hehe that was a temporary website he will be moving it to a new domain... the whole idea of this "smartcoin" is that is really hard to get scam, its decentralized and the price responds to a public feed...

#sharebits "hcf27" 1 KUDOS

(Second intent, I deleted the past reply, I wrote kudos and not KUDOS, I hope it'll work this time)

It didnt work but you can just send it to my user on the DEX which is also hcf27

Is this KUDOS going to be the asset for supporting smart20?

No it's just a social token I made months ago to "" in the forum.

It has no value at the moment.

The UIA representing the share of the index will be made but I want to first finish the beta web site and have the price feed running on the testnet, probably very very soon

[hcf27]

Home page with BIT20 Vs FIAT10 : http://www.bitsharesfcx.com/bit20/homepage_fr.php
Individual crypto Vs the basket BIT20 : http://www.bitsharesfcx.com/bit20/graph_fr_4.php

broken link, scam feelings

hehe that was a temporary website he will be moving it to a new domain... the whole idea of this "smartcoin" is that is really hard to get scam, its decentralized and the price responds to a public feed...

#sharebits "hcf27" 1 KUDOS

(Second intent, I deleted the past reply, I wrote kudos and not KUDOS, I hope it'll work this time)

It didnt work but you can just send it to my user on the DEX which is also hcf27

Is this KUDOS going to be the asset for supporting smart20?

[EstefanTT]

Home page with BIT20 Vs FIAT10 : http://www.bitsharesfcx.com/bit20/homepage_fr.php
Individual crypto Vs the basket BIT20 : http://www.bitsharesfcx.com/bit20/graph_fr_4.php

broken link, scam feelings

hehe that was a temporary website he will be moving it to a new domain... the whole idea of this "smartcoin" is that is really hard to get scam, its decentralized and the price responds to a public feed...

#sharebits "hcf27" 1 KUDOS

(Second intent, I deleted the past reply, I wrote kudos and not KUDOS, I hope it'll work this time)

[EstefanTT]

Home page with BIT20 Vs FIAT10 : http://www.bitsharesfcx.com/bit20/homepage_fr.php
Individual crypto Vs the basket BIT20 : http://www.bitsharesfcx.com/bit20/graph_fr_4.php

broken link, scam feelings

A few posts after that one with the links I said that I was disabling the links to the web site in construction until it's finished.

It's almost done, you' ll see by yourself that there would be no scam possible in the way I wil provide the pricefeed and explain how the index is made (vérifiable by anyone)
 

[hcf27]

Home page with BIT20 Vs FIAT10 : http://www.bitsharesfcx.com/bit20/homepage_fr.php
Individual crypto Vs the basket BIT20 : http://www.bitsharesfcx.com/bit20/graph_fr_4.php

broken link, scam feelings

hehe that was a temporary website he will be moving it to a new domain... the whole idea of this "smartcoin" is that is really hard to get scam, its decentralized and the price responds to a public feed...

[prebuffo]

Home page with BIT20 Vs FIAT10 : http://www.bitsharesfcx.com/bit20/homepage_fr.php
Individual crypto Vs the basket BIT20 : http://www.bitsharesfcx.com/bit20/graph_fr_4.php

broken link, scam feelings

[hcf27]

To be honest... I think BIT20 is a great idea... personally I think i has to growth. The problem is, that if all people will think that, no one will short bit20. In my opinion DOPS will be great speculative market for LISK!

If Bit20 succeds, it means Bitshares succeds therefore one could speculate that BTS will go higher than the index and short it.

BTW I just read the way the index was made, really good stuff here guys! I am sure you will be impressed!!

[noisy]

To be honest... I think BIT20 is a great idea... personally I think i has to growth. The problem is, that if all people will think that, no one will short bit20. In my opinion DOPS will be great speculative market for LISK!

[EstefanTT]

I would like to see other smartcoins like this:

POW10 for 10 most valued pure Proof of Work coins
POS10  for 10 most valued pure Proof of Stake coins
DPOS3 - how many DPOS coins we have? 3 - Bitshares, Muse, Lisk or more?

IMO DPOS3 would be awesome. That would be a way of trading a Lisk before anyone else That also would be a great promotion for BTS and MUSE

I already thought about it.

I wanted to see how the Bit20 is going, the volume, shorters, ... first.
If it's going well it's already in my plan to create another website dedicated to indexes.

Eventually top POW, POS, .. storage/cloud coin, .. social coin ...

I'm not a quiet person, if bit20 take off, even a little, I won't be stopping there ;p

[noisy]

I would like to see other smartcoins like this:

POW10 for 10 most valued pure Proof of Work coins
POS10  for 10 most valued pure Proof of Stake coins
DPOS3 - how many DPOS coins we have? 3 - Bitshares, Muse, Lisk or more?

IMO DPOS3 would be awesome. That would be a way of trading a Lisk before anyone else That also would be a great promotion for BTS and MUSE

[EstefanTT]

I'll have to share the info and name of the asset rather soon for reviewing the texts but I don't want someone to spend a bad joke on me a register the smartcoin asset name before I'm ready to create it.
So I'm thinking about create the smartcoin with the basic setting and all the permissions ON. So when I'm ready to launch it properly, I'll just have to tweak the settings and disable the permissions I don't want. That way, the smartcoin name is reserved and can speak freely about it and show the website under construction if needed.
Am I right to suppose that it's the good way to go ? I just fear to create the smartcoin with an irreversible setting. If I understand it well, if all the permission are allowed, it shouldn't be the case ... ? ... Right ? Guys ?

Sounds like the way to go. How I understand it, once something is disabled it can't be reabled. Is this right?

If you disable a permission, you can not enable it back again.
If you only disable a flag, you can enable it back.

So, until you are 100% sure, just keep all permissions enabled

Thanks, it makes sense to keep them all "enable" then.

I'll do that

[EstefanTT]

I'll have to share the info and name of the asset rather soon for reviewing the texts but I don't want someone to spend a bad joke on me a register the smartcoin asset name before I'm ready to create it.
So I'm thinking about create the smartcoin with the basic setting and all the permissions ON. So when I'm ready to launch it properly, I'll just have to tweak the settings and disable the permissions I don't want. That way, the smartcoin name is reserved and can speak freely about it and show the website under construction if needed.
Am I right to suppose that it's the good way to go ? I just fear to create the smartcoin with an irreversible setting. If I understand it well, if all the permission are allowed, it shouldn't be the case ... ? ... Right ? Guys ?

Sounds like the way to go. How I understand it, once something is disabled it can't be reabled. Is this right?

It seems that way !

I had also another confirmation on telegram.

Thanks for participating !

[Bhuz]

I'll have to share the info and name of the asset rather soon for reviewing the texts but I don't want someone to spend a bad joke on me a register the smartcoin asset name before I'm ready to create it.
So I'm thinking about create the smartcoin with the basic setting and all the permissions ON. So when I'm ready to launch it properly, I'll just have to tweak the settings and disable the permissions I don't want. That way, the smartcoin name is reserved and can speak freely about it and show the website under construction if needed.
Am I right to suppose that it's the good way to go ? I just fear to create the smartcoin with an irreversible setting. If I understand it well, if all the permission are allowed, it shouldn't be the case ... ? ... Right ? Guys ?

Sounds like the way to go. How I understand it, once something is disabled it can't be reabled. Is this right?

If you disable a permission, you can not enable it back again.
If you only disable a flag, you can enable it back.

So, until you are 100% sure, just keep all permissions enabled

[konelectric]

I'll have to share the info and name of the asset rather soon for reviewing the texts but I don't want someone to spend a bad joke on me a register the smartcoin asset name before I'm ready to create it.
So I'm thinking about create the smartcoin with the basic setting and all the permissions ON. So when I'm ready to launch it properly, I'll just have to tweak the settings and disable the permissions I don't want. That way, the smartcoin name is reserved and can speak freely about it and show the website under construction if needed.
Am I right to suppose that it's the good way to go ? I just fear to create the smartcoin with an irreversible setting. If I understand it well, if all the permission are allowed, it shouldn't be the case ... ? ... Right ? Guys ?

Sounds like the way to go. How I understand it, once something is disabled it can't be reabled. Is this right?

[EstefanTT]

I'll have to share the info and name of the asset rather soon for reviewing the texts but I don't want someone to spend a bad joke on me a register the smartcoin asset name before I'm ready to create it.
So I'm thinking about create the smartcoin with the basic setting and all the permissions ON. So when I'm ready to launch it properly, I'll just have to tweak the settings and disable the permissions I don't want. That way, the smartcoin name is reserved and can speak freely about it and show the website under construction if needed.
Am I right to suppose that it's the good way to go ? I just fear to create the smartcoin with an irreversible setting. If I understand it well, if all the permission are allowed, it shouldn't be the case ... ? ... Right ? Guys ?

[CLains]

 so gonna trade this

[EstefanTT]

I've just created the INDEX on the testnet : http://testnet.bitshares.eu/#/market/BITSOMETHING_TEST
I will test it there until I have it right and then create it on the DEX. I'm now trying to understand the process of proving the price feed.

I'm also almost done with web site. I'm loooking for someone to review the explanations in english I have made about the index.
All the texts to review are regroup in a google doc of 1000 words, less than 2 pages. I need a english native person who will be able not only to review orthography but also re-shape the sentences in an serious and elegant way if necesary (not all the text sentences but some sentences will defenitively need this). My english is not good enough to let the texts as I wrote them.

It would take probably less that an hour to do that. Is someone interested in making 1000 bts by helping me with that, shoot me a PM !

[EstefanTT]

I don't understand the difference between permissions and flags, it seems the same to me ...

If you have permissions enabled you MAY use those features but don't need to do so ..
You can ACTUALLY enable a feature by enabling the corresponding FLAG!

Note, that, once you have disabled a PERMISSION!! you cannot re-enable it. It is like an indefinite opt-out!

Thanks for the explanation, make more sense now.

I was going to enable these 3 permissions :

# Enable market fee
# Allow issuer to force a global settling
# Allow witnesses to provide feeds

I'm not sure if I'm missing something important. Do you know a place where I can read more info about these permissions ?

[Empirical1.2]

I'm still wondering about the default % of these two, is that seem ok for the index ?

Force settlement offset   1%
Max force settle vol   20%

If I was too guess, I would think you might have more people willing to go long than short, so you would probably want to offset that with settings that are more favourable for shorters. A force settlement offset of 5% should be more positive for people shorting the index as they would be less worried that they are going to be force settled against unexpectedly. I think, I'm not sure about that though.

You can't fake volume very easily/for very long when you're paying 0.2% per trade can you?

except you are the exchange owner... so the fees come back to you...

That's why I first consider the MC, because it's the only thing you can't fake. The only way to manipulate the MC is by pouring your money in the coin ;p

A lot of cryptos claim to have X supply on the market but you can't be sure they really distributed them, so their market cap is inflated but this is often obvious by their much lower volume.

(As an extreme example, have an ICO for 100 million coins, raise 100 BTC but 99.9 BTC actually came anonymously from you. Now there's only 100 000 coins on the market you don't own. Building their price up to $1 a coin would be fairly cheap and now your DAC/Coin would be valued at $100 million, but it would be clear your market cap is inflated because of the low volume.)

[xeroc]

I don't understand the difference between permissions and flags, it seems the same to me ...

If you have permissions enabled you MAY use those features but don't need to do so ..
You can ACTUALLY enable a feature by enabling the corresponding FLAG!

Note, that, once you have disabled a PERMISSION!! you cannot re-enable it. It is like an indefinite opt-out!

[EstefanTT]

I'm still wondering about the default % of these two, is that seem ok for the index ?

Force settlement offset   1%
Max force settle vol   20%

I'm now wondering about the permission, I would choose these ones :

Enable market fee
Allow issuer to force a global settling
Allow witnesses to provide feeds

I don't understand the difference between permissions and flags, it seems the same to me ...

I'm almost done the website, it has been a crazy week with very little sleep and a lot of <#/'=var"@! ... I just need some precision to these grey areas and I will be ready to go live with the web site and actually create the index on the DEX.

[EstefanTT]

A few month ago, there was a debate on the "PERCENT OFFSET OF FORCED SETTLEMENTS" and the "MAX FORCE SETTLE VOL" for BitUSD and other smartcoins. I think TCNY have done it differently that BitUSD.

They are set by default that way  :

Force settlement offset   1%
Max force settle vol   20%

Do someone have an opinion on wich kind of values would fit better to an index ?

[EstefanTT]

Wouldn't a Top 5 or 10 make more sense than 20?

At least today, we can find ~10 interesting, original, promising crypto projects.

Agree with you, at this moment 10 will be better.

It depends on how your index is weighted. 10 seems a little to small to me, lots of good coins from 10 to 20. Obviously, they don't have the same weight that the top ones.

[EstefanTT]

You can't fake volume very easily/for very long when you're paying 0.2% per trade can you?

except you are the exchange owner... so the fees come back to you...

That's why I first consider the MC, because it's the only thing you can't fake. The only way to manipulate the MC is by pouring your money in the coin ;p

[Creat0r]

Wouldn't a Top 5 or 10 make more sense than 20?

At least today, we can find ~10 interesting, original, promising crypto projects.

Agree with you, at this moment 10 will be better.

[liondani]

You can't fake volume very easily/for very long when you're paying 0.2% per trade can you?

except you are the exchange owner... so the fees come back to you...

[Empirical1.2]

  for the initiative !!!


some thoughts...

I think if you want to stick to the "best" 20 crypto's you should use the first 20 with the biggest volume NOT the 20 with the  biggest marketcap.... because we will see many shitcoins on the list very often....
if bit20 is depended from marketcap only it will be very misleading...  And not only use the 24h volume of course... we can use the top 20 crypto with the biggest weekly or monthly volume....

if you want to stick only with the marketacap then I prefer a bit10 index instead of the bit20 so that crap coins get out-filtered...

I support this point. Market cap is a bad measure of performance. Issue trillions of shit coins and get #1 market cap. Look at ripple for example. Trade volume is the only good way to evaluate crypto token performance.

trade volume is also easily faked

It depends what exchanges you reference I guess. You can't fake volume very easily/for very long when you're paying 0.2% per trade can you?

(Coinmarketcap for example excludes the BTC exchanges with no fees from their calculations http://coinmarketcap.com/currencies/bitcoin/#markets )

[liondani]

Wouldn't a Top 5 or 10 make more sense than 20?

At least today, we can find ~10 interesting, original, promising crypto projects.

 

[karnal]

Wouldn't a Top 5 or 10 make more sense than 20?

At least today, we can find ~10 interesting, original, promising crypto projects.

[EstefanTT]

Holy crap! The War of Indexes has started. Strip your rockets gentlemen, aim, charge!

Lol ;p

[yvv]

Holy crap! The War of Indexes has started. Strip your rockets gentlemen, aim, charge!

[Erlich Bachman]

wow, great initiative, and super easy to market !

who doesn't want a piece of the crypto action right now!

And this is the lowest risk way to play the market

[EstefanTT]

There is plenty of ways to weight an index. In the crypto currencies world, there will be probably, in the future, lots of indexes.

For now, I have a good one running since july 2015 and giving an acurate information about the evolution of the crypto currencies in a global way vs fiat money. I just have to make the economical input information scripts a little more reliable and create the smartcoin. It probbaly can be done in a matter of days.

I made this thread to brainstorm with this community on the index before creating it. When I see that 21xhipster rushed into creating some sort of Bit20 without understanding fully the details of it, I feel that I shouldn't have share publicly my idea about the index I was going to create.

BitShares is a free market place, everyone is free to do whatever he wants on it. I knew there were the possibility that someone could try to create an index before I do.

Anyway, from now on, I won't share any more details on the index composition and structure, nor the website and other related projects. I'll only participate to the debate and brainstorm to avoid giving to much information. The bit20 website is also disable at the moment, it will be available again soon, after I remove the sensitive information from tne public side.

First nothing was actually created yet. I've just was curious how I can use in what I invested almost two years ago :-) We have our own methodology we are working for 2 years already which was published long time ago :-) I don't understand what you are worrying about really :-)

I just expressed my concerns about the fact that it wasn't maybe a good idea to openly discuss my plan on making a crypto index on BitShares.

Competion is good and more indexes on this platform will benefit BitShares wich is the most important to me.

You'll agree with me that it's completely natural that I don't want to give more information about my project on creating a index of the top 20 crypto by MC when I see two days after I create a thread about it that someone create a >>>

"cyber•Index 20
Cyber Index. Include Top-20 assets by capitalization"

I'm sure you can understand my position.

If I may suggest, you have been working on a way to select the best crypto currencies with sophisticated process. That's an impressiv work ! You should take advantage of all this work and create a index different from what I'm doing, something based on what you have in cyber.fund. It would be great to see how our both indexes are progressing vs fiat money and vs each other !


 

[EstefanTT]

A few month ago, there was a debate on the "PERCENT OFFSET OF FORCED SETTLEMENTS" and the "Max force settle vol" for BitUSD and other smartcoins. I think TCNY have done it differently that BitUSD.

Do someone have an opinion on wich kind of values would fit better to an index ?

[21xhipster]

There is plenty of ways to weight an index. In the crypto currencies world, there will be probably, in the future, lots of indexes.

For now, I have a good one running since july 2015 and giving an acurate information about the evolution of the crypto currencies in a global way vs fiat money. I just have to make the economical input information scripts a little more reliable and create the smartcoin. It probbaly can be done in a matter of days.

I made this thread to brainstorm with this community on the index before creating it. When I see that 21xhipster rushed into creating some sort of Bit20 without understanding fully the details of it, I feel that I shouldn't have share publicly my idea about the index I was going to create.

BitShares is a free market place, everyone is free to do whatever he wants on it. I knew there were the possibility that someone could try to create an index before I do.

Anyway, from now on, I won't share any more details on the index composition and structure, nor the website and other related projects. I'll only participate to the debate and brainstorm to avoid giving to much information. The bit20 website is also disable at the moment, it will be available again soon, after I remove the sensitive information from tne public side.

First nothing was actually created yet. I've just was curious how I can use in what I invested almost two years ago :-) We have our own methodology we are working for 2 years already which was published long time ago :-) I don't understand what you are worrying about really :-)
Update: BTW everything we do is fully open source and we are not worrying that somebody steal that :-) Take it, really! https://github.com/cyberFund
And I think I understand a litle deeper than you think how that index should work. Check it http://academia.edu/22691395/cyber_Rating_Crypto_Property_Evaluation

[EstefanTT]

There is plenty of ways to weight an index. In the crypto currencies world, there will be probably, in the future, lots of indexes.

For now, I have a good one running since july 2015 and giving an acurate information about the evolution of the crypto currencies in a global way vs fiat money. I just have to make the economical input information scripts a little more reliable and create the smartcoin. It probbaly can be done in a matter of days.

I made this thread to brainstorm with this community on the index before creating it. When I see that 21xhipster rushed into creating some sort of Bit20 without understanding fully the details of it, I feel that I shouldn't have share publicly my idea about the index I was going to create.

BitShares is a free market place, everyone is free to do whatever he wants on it. I knew there were the possibility that someone could try to create an index before I do.

Anyway, from now on, I won't share any more details on the index composition and structure, nor the website and other related projects. I'll only participate to the debate and brainstorn to avoid giving to much information. The bit20 website is also disable at the moment, it will be available again soon, after I remove the sensitive information from tne public side.

[yvv]

BTW
I've create prototype asset. http://cryptofresh.com/a/CYIND.
Would like hear your recommendations how this thing can be configured for better, as to be honest I don't clearly understand all parameters behind.
I'd also like to know why I was not able to create Smartcoin wth permissions witnesses/committee permissions?

@kingslanding I like some things in Coingecko approach, guys did a huge job, but (1) lack of really meaningful assets like Factom, Synereo, Augur, etc., (2) incorrect methodology of cap calculation (like CMC, cutted Ripple, Stellar, Storj supply and as result artificial overvaluation) and (3) non natural or dumb logic of weighting. As result you can see Litecoin (which is stagnating even against USD) in the 3d place and beautiful and really growing (in terms of account and transactions) BitShares at 9th place, or Vertcoin (! what the hell) is 13 and Storj which is awesome at 25 position. You can compare Coingecko with our results if you sort by rating on https://cyber.fund and you'll see a difference.
Update:
Our rating has some obvious fuckups, but they are because of content which is in work though.

So, this is a real problem, to come up with a good methodology for index. Creating a coin after that is really trivial task.

[21xhipster]

BTW
I've create prototype asset. http://cryptofresh.com/a/CYIND.
Would like hear your recommendations how this thing can be configured for better, as to be honest I don't clearly understand all parameters behind.
I'd also like to know why I was not able to create Smartcoin wth permissions witnesses/committee permissions?

@kingslanding I like some things in Coingecko approach, guys did a huge job, but (1) lack of really meaningful assets like Factom, Synereo, Augur, etc., (2) incorrect methodology of cap calculation (like CMC, cutted Ripple, Stellar, Storj supply and as result artificial overvaluation) and (3) non natural or dumb logic of weighting. As result you can see Litecoin (which is stagnating even against USD) in the 3d place and beautiful and really growing (in terms of account and transactions) BitShares at 9th place, or Vertcoin (! what the hell) is 13 and Storj which is awesome at 25 position. You can compare Coingecko with our results if you sort by rating on https://cyber.fund and you'll see a difference.
Update:
Our rating has some obvious fuckups, but they are because of content which is in work though.

[kingslanding]

Coingecko has an interesting mix.  Mouse over the ?'s to see explanation of each weighting.

https://www.coingecko.com/en

[21xhipster]

trade volume is also easily faked

thats true !

Maybe that is one more reason to use both parameters... Volume + Marketcap (with a 70%-30% weight or something like that)
we could optimally  use even  more data, to choose the top cryptos for our bit20 index but I am afraid it will get too complicated ...

a very good example of doing this "pickup"  is
https://cyber.fund/

they seem to have made a good job with "Scoring Coefficients"
https://github.com/cyberFund/cyberrating/blob/master/scoring.md

In reality they could  (@21xhipster) already use their idea and link their "cyber-fund" with a BTS created smartcoin  instead of a UIA they created using "colored coins"...
I bet they would gain much more traction from the cryptospace   

My methodology is quite raw now and need to be (1) fine tuned and polished. That is iterative job. But when I started this thing the goal in fact was to design a set of criteria for any kind of indexes. I'd be happy to hear any feedback and improvements proposals. We are going (2) to switch to our personal price feeds (http://api.cyber.fund) from Coinmarketcap feeds - they are ready and wait for integration with supply info. Also there is a task (3) to get supply info (for correct weighting) for top rated systems directly from nodes and not from trusted (CMC get it from simple url from anywhere) and often incorrect sources like CMC. Once we finish this 3 tasks I think there will be a place for reliable industrial grade index like bit-20 smartcoin or cyber-20 :-) or whatever. Until this done this index would look like a toy for a sandbox. Probably we should keep things much more simple and start from what we have now. What do you think?

[fav]

I'd buy bit 20

[liondani]

trade volume is also easily faked

thats true !

Maybe that is one more reason to use both parameters... Volume + Marketcap (with a 70%-30% weight or something like that)
we could optimally  use even  more data, to choose the top cryptos for our bit20 index but I am afraid it will get too complicated ...

a very good example of doing this "pickup"  is
https://cyber.fund/

they seem to have made a good job with "Scoring Coefficients"
https://github.com/cyberFund/cyberrating/blob/master/scoring.md

In reality they could  (@21xhipster) already use their idea and link their "cyber-fund" with a BTS created smartcoin  instead of a UIA they created using "colored coins"...
I bet they would gain much more traction from the cryptospace   

[JonnyB]

  for the initiative !!!


some thoughts...

I think if you want to stick to the "best" 20 crypto's you should use the first 20 with the biggest volume NOT the 20 with the  biggest marketcap.... because we will see many shitcoins on the list very often....
if bit20 is depended from marketcap only it will be very misleading...  And not only use the 24h volume of course... we can use the top 20 crypto with the biggest weekly or monthly volume....

if you want to stick only with the marketacap then I prefer a bit10 index instead of the bit20 so that crap coins get out-filtered...

I support this point. Market cap is a bad measure of performance. Issue trillions of shit coins and get #1 market cap. Look at ripple for example. Trade volume is the only good way to evaluate crypto token performance.

trade volume is also easily faked

[jz831]

My first though is the volume can vary quickly and it would change the composition of the Bit20 too often.

No if you use the average weekly or monthly volume!


PS you can use both (marketcap + volume) but give 70% weight to volume and 30% weight to marketcap for example...

 

This is a great idea, and discussion.  I look forward to seeing what develops.

[liondani]

My first though is the volume can vary quickly and it would change the composition of the Bit20 too often.

No if you use the average weekly or monthly volume!


PS you can use both (marketcap + volume) but give 70% weight to volume and 30% weight to marketcap for example...

[EstefanTT]

  for the initiative !!!


some thoughts...

I think if you want to stick to the "best" 20 crypto's you should use the first 20 with the biggest volume NOT the 20 with the  biggest marketcap.... because we will see many shitcoins on the list very often....
if bit20 is depended from marketcap only it will be very misleading...  And not only use the 24h volume of course... we can use the top 20 crypto with the biggest weekly or monthly volume....

if you want to stick only with the marketacap then I prefer a bit10 index instead of the bit20 so that crap coins get out-filtered...

That's an interesting idea !

On the other hand, it would be sad for the data we already have collected since July 2015 on the Bit20 vs Fiat10, other fiat and cryptos.

My first though is the volume can vary quickly and it would change the composition of the Bit20 too often. Also, a coin loosing his reputation and his market cap with a lot of sellers and volume would climb up in the index when it should go down.
The weight can also be very challenging to define if we don't use the MC.

Any other comments on this idea ?

[yvv]

  for the initiative !!!


some thoughts...

I think if you want to stick to the "best" 20 crypto's you should use the first 20 with the biggest volume NOT the 20 with the  biggest marketcap.... because we will see many shitcoins on the list very often....
if bit20 is depended from marketcap only it will be very misleading...  And not only use the 24h volume of course... we can use the top 20 crypto with the biggest weekly or monthly volume....

if you want to stick only with the marketacap then I prefer a bit10 index instead of the bit20 so that crap coins get out-filtered...

I support this point. Market cap is a bad measure of performance. Issue trillions of shit coins and get #1 market cap. Look at ripple for example. Trade volume is the only good way to evaluate crypto token performance.

[EstefanTT]

Great initiative.  Let me know if there is any way I can assist.

I will ! This thread is also a way to know people interested in the project

[liondani]

    for the initiative !!!


some thoughts...

I think if you want to stick to the "best" 20 crypto's you should use the first 20 with the biggest volume NOT the 20 with the  biggest marketcap.... because we will see many shitcoins on the list very often....
if bit20 is depended from marketcap only it will be very misleading...  And not only use the 24h volume of course... we can use the top 20 crypto with the biggest weekly or monthly volume....

if you want to stick only with the marketacap then I prefer a bit10 index instead of the bit20 so that crap coins get out-filtered... 

[puppies]

Great initiative.  Let me know if there is any way I can assist. 

[hcf27]

Oh yeah, something else:

I also think a ETF Share token should be issued so that contributors get some sort of reward, @EstefanTT mentioned an idea like this on a previous thread and I thought it was quite incentive and a perfect way to do some crowdfunding too.

I mentioned it in the other thread. I have been thinking about creating a UIA that would represent 100% of the benefits coming from the 0.1% cut taking on the trades of the index.
That would allow us to reward easily anyone helping in the project.
I will probably create the UIA when I create the smartcoin and a buyback or dividend system would be use.

[EstefanTT]

Oh yeah, something else:

I also think a ETF Share token should be issued so that contributors get some sort of reward, @EstefanTT mentioned an idea like this on a previous thread and I thought it was quite incentive and a perfect way to do some crowdfunding too.

I mentioned it in the other thread. I have been thinking about creating a UIA that would represent 100% of the benefits coming from the 0.1% cut taking on the trades of the index.
That would allow us to reward easily anyone helping in the project.
I will probably create the UIA when I create the smartcoin and a buyback or dividend system would be use.

[hcf27]

Oh yeah, something else:

I also think a ETF Share token should be issued so that contributors get some sort of reward, @EstefanTT mentioned an idea like this on a previous thread and I thought it was quite incentive and a perfect way to do some crowdfunding too.

[EstefanTT]

Well, we still have to understand the process of providing the price feed in graphene and test it so it will work properly.
I'll have time to work on a basic but serious web site at the same time we complete the smartcoin techy part.

Off course, when we are ready to create the smartcoin, even if the web site is not ready, we will do it without waiting ! The web site can come later.

BITTWENTY o BITWENTY could be a good name. We are still thinking about it. Any idea is welcome !

[hcf27]

First + 1 + 1 + 1  for going ahead with this.


 I definitely think you should use bitBTC as collateral. This also means btc should not be part of the index. [Using bitUSD is the only thing better but you will just not find people (in crypto space) believing that all/top crypto will go down against fiat, so no shorters..]

Why bitBTC :
- it is easy to bet on BTC as it is- you just hold btc. And 99.9% of the people already hold btc before even coming into BTS.
- you will have much more people interested in betting on top 20 cryptos against BTC (as opposed to against BTS)
- for the shorters - being short the index against BTS as easy as pie - you short bitBTC to yourself and use the bitBTC to short the bitTop20

I am absolutely positive going with BTS as collateral will be a big mistake. Drop me PM if you do not understand/want me to expand on the reasoning above.

I would prefer to create the debate in this thread than move it in a private channel.

Don't you think that we lack of liquidity in the BitShares BTC market to really kick off the Bit20 ?  Maybe if we had already the sidechain in place ... I don't want to wait we reach high liquidity in all our major smartcoins market to see grow the BIT20 but rather be able to start creating liquidity since the very first day.

I thought BTS was a good choice but the debate is pretty much alive !!

BTS has higher volatility than BTC, so more oportunities to make a profit will arise for buyers, sellers and shorters as the price spikes up and down.
That's also basically why I though BitUSD wouldn't be a great choice, I don't see anyone in his right mind shorting BIT20 Vs BitUSD.

Hello,

I am glad this project is going forward, count with me for anything you need, as I have said in several occasions I think this is a great idea.

I think collateral should be BTS, its just way simpler, most people dont even understand what BitBTC is... its like BTC but then its not... so if we used BitBTC we would be like shorting twice, you short bts to get bitBTC and then you short BitBTC to get Bit20, its just makes things really complicated for newbies IMO.

I love the name bit20 and the logo you have made, since we cant have number I would say  bitTWENTY so we can keep the logo with the numbers.

I agree that we should create the token and then start doing some marketing to get liquidity, I am sure people would love it.


 

[yvv]

This is great! Bit20 and fiat10 is a dream of investor. Make BTS as collateral.

Edit: Don't worry about web site, translations and other farts and whistles for now. Just make your tokens and let us trade.
 

[tonyk]

First + 1 + 1 + 1  for going ahead with this.


 I definitely think you should use bitBTC as collateral. This also means btc should not be part of the index. [Using bitUSD is the only thing better but you will just not find people (in crypto space) believing that all/top crypto will go down against fiat, so no shorters..]

Why bitBTC :
- it is easy to bet on BTC as it is- you just hold btc. And 99.9% of the people already hold btc before even coming into BTS.
- you will have much more people interested in betting on top 20 cryptos against BTC (as opposed to against BTS)
- for the shorters - being short the index against BTS as easy as pie - you short bitBTC to yourself and use the bitBTC to short the bitTop20

I am absolutely positive going with BTS as collateral will be a big mistake. Drop me PM if you do not understand/want me to expand on the reasoning above.

I would prefer to create the debate in this thread than move it in a private channel.

Don't you think that we lack of liquidity in the BitShares BTC market to really kick off the Bit20 ? Maybe if we had already the sidechain in place ... I don't want to wait we reach high liquidity in all our major smartcoins market to see grow the BIT20 but rather be able to start creating liquidity since the very first day.

I thought BTS was a good choice but the debate is pretty much alive !!

BTS has higher volatility than BTC, so more oportunities to make a profit will arise for buyers, sellers and shorters as the price spikes up and down.
That's also basically why I though BitUSD wouldn't be a great choice, I don't see anyone in his right mind shorting BIT20 Vs BitUSD.

I think this:

- for the shorters - being short the index against BTS as easy as pie - you short bitBTC to yourself and use the bitBTC to short the bitTop20

So in other words -  in reality the lack of liquidity in bitBTC does not matter much. You do that to open a short position in bittop20 without needing any bitBTC on the market. Same goes to closing it - you free your bitBTC from the collateral and close your short bitBTC with them.

[tonyk]

forgot to mention - for those interested in all top 20 crypto including BTC - you just calculate and post on the website what percent of BTC they should keep . say the calculation says 15% in btc, so they use (1- 15%)  = 85% of their BTC to buy the index and keep 15% in BTC.

[EstefanTT]

First + 1 + 1 + 1  for going ahead with this.


 I definitely think you should use bitBTC as collateral. This also means btc should not be part of the index. [Using bitUSD is the only thing better but you will just not find people (in crypto space) believing that all/top crypto will go down against fiat, so no shorters..]

Why bitBTC :
- it is easy to bet on BTC as it is- you just hold btc. And 99.9% of the people already hold btc before even coming into BTS.
- you will have much more people interested in betting on top 20 cryptos against BTC (as opposed to against BTS)
- for the shorters - being short the index against BTS as easy as pie - you short bitBTC to yourself and use the bitBTC to short the bitTop20

I am absolutely positive going with BTS as collateral will be a big mistake. Drop me PM if you do not understand/want me to expand on the reasoning above.

I would prefer to create the debate in this thread than move it in a private channel.

Don't you think that we lack of liquidity in the BitShares BTC market to really kick off the Bit20 ?  Maybe if we had already the sidechain in place ... I don't want to wait we reach high liquidity in all our major smartcoins market to see grow the BIT20 but rather be able to start creating liquidity since the very first day.

I thought BTS was a good choice but the debate is pretty much alive !!

BTS has higher volatility than BTC, so more oportunities to make a profit will arise for buyers, sellers and shorters as the price spikes up and down.
That's also basically why I though BitUSD wouldn't be a great choice, I don't see anyone in his right mind shorting BIT20 Vs BitUSD.

[tonyk]

First + 1 + 1 + 1  for going ahead with this.


 I definitely think you should use bitBTC as collateral. This also means btc should not be part of the index. [Using bitUSD is the only thing better but you will just not find people (in crypto space) believing that all/top crypto will go down against fiat, so no shorters..]

Why bitBTC :
- it is easy to bet on BTC as it is- you just hold btc. And 99.9% of the people already hold btc before even coming into BTS.
- you will have much more people interested in betting on top 20 cryptos against BTC (as opposed to against BTS)
- for the shorters - being short the index against BTS as easy as pie - you short bitBTC to yourself and use the bitBTC to short the bitTop20

I am absolutely positive going with BTS as collateral will be a big mistake. Drop me PM if you do not understand/want me to expand on the reasoning above.

[EstefanTT]

In july, with a friend, we made an index (BIT20) composed by the top 20 crypto currencies by MC. Every crypto in the basket is weighted in the same way popular indexes like the CAC40 are. This way, Bitcoin doesn't move strongly the value of the index and the last of the top 20 have an impact on the index if its value grow. We also created an other index called FIAT10 who is made in the same way to represent the top 10 FIAT. So we have been able to compare BIT20 to FIAT10 and see the globale evolution of the crypto sphere Vs the FIAT money since July 2015.

The unofficial beta web site is only made in french at the moment but you can easily take a look at the graphs and the way the 20 cryptos are weighted.

Home page with BIT20 Vs FIAT10 : http://www.bitsharesfcx.com/bit20/homepage_fr.php
Individual crypto Vs the basket BIT20 : http://www.bitsharesfcx.com/bit20/graph_fr_4.php

A recent thread ( https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php/topic,21955.0/all.html ) open our eyes on the fact that it wasn't that complicated to create a BitShares smartcoin based on what we already have working flawlessly since july 2015.

After some reflexions we are decided to continue and push the idea forwards.

The next steps we have in mind are :

# review and re-review our code and make it flawless and bullet proof
# learn how to create the smartcoin and provide the pricefeed in a decentralised way in graphene (I'm already in touch with Xeroc who kindly propose his help)
# revamp the web site in something more proffesssional (only in english for the release), I'm already looking for a nice CSS template.
# get the maximum opinions, reflexion and feedback on the project from the community so we can do it in a smart way
# Officially launch the web site, create the smartcoin and commercialise it.

After this minimum viable release of the web site and smartcoin, we are considering to make the website available in several lenguages and add it other kind of crypto economical informations and graphs.

Anyone wanting to join the team is very welcome, PM me.

Number of users in here beleive that a well done index representing the global evolution of the crypto currencies could grow quickly. There is probbaly lots of investors looking for something like that so they don't have to read 50 forum everyday to know where to invest. I completely agree with them and think that could also bring value to BitShares itself. Let's imagine for a second that this index would grow to be a very liquid, deep market, well-known basket or index in which you can invest in the global evolution of crypto currencies ... BitShares would sky rocket !

The project is moving forward right now and will be done probably sooner rather than later.

The quality of the smartcoin and the website will depend in big part of the feedback and brainstorming we will have in this thread.
There is a lot to discuss. Things like the best options and permissions of the smartcoin, with what we'll back it or what could we have in the website besides what we already have in the beta version (Poloniex troll box, BitShares tweeter feed news, ... ?)
Even the name BIT20 has to be change because numbers are not allow for the smartcoins ... any ideas ?

As this could bring value not only to the smartcoin itself but also to BitShares, I hope we can all join our mind to come with a great index all together.